kat99999 @ April 28 2003, 08:58:10 UTC

Well, I'm just going to do this off the top of my head but hopefully I will be able to put together something that makes sense. I just read the post and thought I had to have a go at trying to answer it, for my own speculation as well as yours.

I think the first step with liking anyone can be a physical attraction, and I suppose with Harry it may have started there. He might have looked at Draco differently over a period of time and started to like him and probably not been particularly happy about the idea. And I think once you start to 'fancy' someone or you become physically attracted to them, you start to look for the good, and the redeeming qualities.

Obviously, it can be hard to immediately pick these out of Draco, but there must be something, like you said, to make Harry like him. I suppose a place to start would be holding a sort of sympathetic eye about the way Draco is- he is a little git, yes, but I think Harry wouldn't take this at face value as he grew up. Maybe in canon we see that Harry hates Draco, but I like to think that a slightly more mature Harry can see that Draco is a git for reasons beyond his control, such as the way he grew up, and the values that have been installed in him by his father.

I think Harry would be able to see this, and I think he would empathise, particularly as someone who thinks Draco is fanciable material and would want to see good in him. I think Harry would want to look for the good in everyone around him, and as he learns more and more about the way Draco is treated by and treats his family through the journal process, he may have discovered it is not as black and white as it looks.

I get the feeling also that Harry has changed his response to Draco's sense of humour as well. In recent threads, rather than being insulted by it, he has risen to it and responded in a similar way, and it seems that Draco installs a confidence in Harry that you don't always see. It is almost as though it is acceptable for him to be snarky and mean towards Draco, and he doesn't have that with anyone else. Anyone who can put a bit of self esteem into someone and boost that person's confidence is generally appealing.

Before these recent threads... I'm not completely sure. I remember Draco doing a lot of uneappealing things before the party (although i wasn't as avid a fan) took place, but Harry was obviously developing feelings at this point. Of course, we could consider the idea that the party was the changing point that made Harry realise he actually liked Draco in a physical way, and perhaps from then on he started dwelling on it, which would also explain all the journal posts - perhaps he realised he wanted to get to know Draco better? As I said above, Harry tends to see the best in people and maybe he wanted a genuine opportunity to find some good in Draco, and tried to do this by being his friend. He was only given the opportunity when Draco got lost in London, and this sparked off the journal commentary, as I had said.

On the more superficial side of things, it could be a shared enjoyment of Quidditch and sport. Just look at Golf! *grin* They do have things in common - they are both very loyal to the people they respect/love (look at Harry and Ron/Hermione/Dumbledore/etc, and look at Draco and his mother/father/Snape - there are definite similarities in the general relationship despite differences in approaching said relationships) and I think Harry would be able to see this in a positive way. Both Harry and Draco seem to make an effort in their schooling - Draco certainly never slacks off, despite making up for it with other misbehaviors. Perhaps also Draco's way of looking at things that can be different than everyone, his bluntness that is sometimes necessary but often not - would this appeal to Harry?

I think I have rambled on enough... Heh.

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jgoreham @ April 28 2003, 09:29:56 UTC

Good theory =D

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xnera @ April 28 2003, 09:06:06 UTC

I don't fully understand it myself.

Maybe it's because Draco is one of the few people who don't hero-worship Harry? I mean, look at the handle Harry chose for himself: just_harry. Harry doesn't want to be seen as The Boy Who Lived, or the hero of Gryffindor, or anything beyond who he is: just Harry. Enter Draco, who doesn't think Harry's all that and a bag of chips. In fact, he consistently belittles Harry. Now, I'm not saying that Harry likes punishment, but perhaps he feels that Draco is one person who has the potential to see Harry as who he really is: just Harry.

Why does Harry like Draco?

A similar question that pops up is why the fans like Draco, even though he's terribly cruel. A couple of reasons:

• Characters who are overwhelmingly good can be boring. Stories thrive on conflict, and a "bad" character such as Draco creates that conflict.
  
• Readers (and women, especially) want to "fix" or "save" these bad characters. It gives us an incredibly sense of power and accomplishment to do so. Of course, as readers we can't really fix a character, but we can be present for his redemption.
  
• potterstinks is so cruel sometimes, that I can't help but react to him. And then I try to understand why I'm reacting in such a way. In a sense, the character is helping me gain a better understanding of myself.
  

Well, that's just a few thoughts. I'm sure there's more.

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moonlitpages @ April 28 2003, 09:51:23 UTC

Maybe it's because Draco is one of the few people who don't hero-worship Harry?

I second that, definitely. One thing I might add along those lines, fueled by my own perspective- that perhaps something Harry might see in Draco is the fact that while he is an offensive, manipulative little blighter, he does tell it like it is (to an extent- not when he is being dramatic and embellishing all over the place for effect, that's not exactly what I mean). One thing I've noted in cannon Draco (that I think I've mentioned before) that seems to carry over to PS, is that while he clearly has no problem with lying and manipulation, he is very honest in his reactions to things. In CoS, we saw a glimpse of Lucius telling Draco it was not wise to appear 'less than fond' of Harry, from which we can infer that Lucius would prefer Draco suck it up and kiss ass like everyone else to preserve a respectable veneer but it seems that Draco just can't do this. When he does not like someone, he can't seem to hide it and indeed displays it for the whole world to see by practically shouting it from the rooftops. I read in a lot of fanfic a characterization of Draco that has him a master at emotional control and hiding his feelings, but Cannon Draco has always seemed to me to be rather, well, crap at it. At least in his immediate, gut reactions, though he's very good at spinning wild tales to cover for it later. If he dislikes someone, it does not matter if they are a teacher (Hagrid, etc) or a public icon, he is going to let them know as frequently and offensively as possible, and I get the feeling there is little he would say about a person he dislikes behind their back that he would not happily throw at their face (unless of course it is someone like Crouch/Moody who he is/was terrified of).

All that to say that while Draco/PS is many things- he is not a 'fake', in that respect. And as a person who prefers to be around blunt persons and/or ones who honestly do not like me than those who might pretend to on the surface, I can see where Harry might be drawn to someone like Draco in a world full of those like Fudge who are inclined to flatter him to his face and gossip behind his back. He doesn't gloss things over or see Harry as some kind of hero, and is very, very open about this. But that's just my wild speculations ;-)

(apologies for the odd spacing in this, my spacebar is on the fritz)

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imochan @ April 28 2003, 10:00:55 UTC

Nicely put. And I'm inclined to agree.

Then again, there's always the age-old theory that opposites attract. Gryffindor - Slytherin, Courageous - cowardly, orphan - strong family ties, honest - not so much... I could go on, I suppose. For whatever they might have in common (love of quidditch, love of Gulf :D), I've always been a firm believer in the idea that Draco is everything Harry's not, and vice-versa.

Perhaps there's something there? I don't know...

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kat99999 @ April 28 2003, 11:37:44 UTC

Draco is everything Harry's not

Hehe, that old saying - opposites attract? You know, if you wanted to put it in the simplest, least theoretical way. *mocks self*

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Anonymous @ April 28 2003, 11:15:37 UTC

I agree that Draco doesn't hero-worship Harry, but I don't think he reacts to "just Harry" either.

After all, isn't his hatred aimed mostly at The Boy Who Lived persona? How mush does he even really know about the boy himself?

There was probably a teensy bit of conflict recently in his mind as he started to become semi-friends with the "real" Harry and hang out just like 2 guys, but for some reason he decided to fuck all that and attack him.

Actually, that's one of the things that made his nasty post so hurtful. It wasn't aimed at "The Boy Who Lived Harry" as much as it was aimed at the real person.

Ugh, Draco can be such a little shit.

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sistermagpie @ April 28 2003, 11:57:57 UTC

I don't think I see quite that distinction. For Draco, imo, it's really not TBWL persona so much--that's Ron's problem (everything interesting always happens to Harry, Harry being famous etc.) With Draco I think it's more about Harry getting praise, getting away with things, being adored and making it all look (to Draco) so damned easy and worse, unintentional.

What's also worse is I think he realizes Harry does deserve it even as he thinks it's unfair. I think, for instance, that Draco definitely recognizes the difference between Narcissa's false compliments of himself (he's so sweet, such a little gentleman, he's an aristrocrat etc.) with her true compliments of Harry (so polite, so sweet to listen to me, such a nice young man). For all that Draco also claims to be these things I think he knows perfectly well he's not sweet, not a gentleman. Because Harry is he wants to destroy him, maybe.

So I think for Draco this really was all about the real person who is Harry and not TBWL. He may not know Harry very much as a friend but he watches him very closely: he notices when he sticks his foot in a cauldron and walks into things and turns his thumb purple and tries to hide it. Perhaps all this time we've thought Draco was stalking him out of lust when he was really just trying to figure out why this makes him so special.

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Anonymous @ April 28 2003, 15:16:03 UTC

Man, I like your points. I think you've really put your finger on what Draco thinks of Harry :)

... but I wonder if just because Draco may not be seeing him as TBWL (awful to use Lavender's acronym, but so handy), he's still seeing him as this annoying symbol: the-everything-Draco-can't-be-guy... there's just so much baggage there, that Harry's never going to be "just Harry" to any non-muggle.

Of course, even if I argue this, it doesn't mean that just_harry doesn't see it differently after all.

It's just desperately sad to think that he'd think that the person meanest to him is the one reacting the most to the "real him."

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kat99999 @ April 28 2003, 11:35:54 UTC

Maybe it's because Draco is one of the few people who don't hero-worship Harry?

*agrees* That's a really good point as well... I think the rest has been said by everyone else, just wanted to kudos that. :-D

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adrienneherbst @ April 28 2003, 09:40:00 UTC

...you know, that's a really good question. (And one I found myself wondering a lot when, like, Harry would respond to one of Draco's more despicable date entries with "plagiarizing Better Homes and Gardens" or whatnot).

I'd say that the sexual attraction's a big part of it-- the rivalry-UST is probably what kicked the whole thing off. Maybe he's doing the same thing that we're doing, and wondering whether Draco's an okay, if horribly hurting and misguided, person underneath it all? How many of you guys have had an embarrassing lustcrush on a complete jerk, then spent a while rationalizing that "they aren't so bad after all"? And I guess, Harry being Harry, he'd want to try to bring out that subsumed Okay Person? Hmm.

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sarahtales @ April 28 2003, 10:06:58 UTC

Well, I'd say a 'word' on the initial sexual attraction, and the non hero worship.
But also... I think Harry is reluctantly *charmed* by Draco, as we all are. Possibly the livejournal thing helped him to love him as it's helped *me* to love 'potterstinks.' Harry's could be like, all this time I thought he was just being evil to me, but the little drama queen is enraged about everyone, and he's angry all the time so there's got to be some reason for that, and also for some reason the very anger is bizarrely appealing.
all it needs is for a seed to be planted. Harry is persistent and caring, and being intrigued can turn into being fascinated can turn into... Hmm. Well.
OH GOD, WHY AREN'T I STUDYING?

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notapipe @ April 28 2003, 10:44:23 UTC

That should be the new nraged motto.

OH GOD, WHY AREN'T I STUDYING?

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neveth @ April 28 2003, 10:50:06 UTC

or OH GOD WHY AREN'T I SLEEPING?

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xnera @ April 28 2003, 11:13:47 UTC

Or "OH GOD, WHY AREN'T I TRYING TO FIND A JOB?" Too bad I can't get paid for posting on nraged.

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kat99999 @ April 28 2003, 11:20:40 UTC

This is my one. Sleeping is so not important. *laugh* Wait until my exams come in June and I start freaking out..

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angerfish @ April 28 2003, 13:54:58 UTC

Stop it, all of you. I have a math quiz and a German quiz to study for, and y'all are distracting me from procrastination. For shame!

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shusu @ April 28 2003, 10:16:19 UTC my 2c

I have this discussion saved to memories of lunacy's for just such an occasion. It sums up much better than I ever could.

Within the context of NA, however, I think Harry is discovering that streak of Slytherin in himself... that in fact it is just a form of Marauder wickedness, and even Remus has said "hey boy you're the spawn of a Marauder, *what* rules!"

It may ease some of Harry's self-doubt to know that his darker feelings are normal.

Now enter Draco who revels in all things wicked. Harry from eleven years of age has demonized him as a Dudley. I agree, there's a strong possibility that this is the typical rivalry-turned-to-love formula.

But what else? From age twelve Harry has had an insider's knowledge of how Lucius treats Draco. He reads Lucius and Narcissa's entries just like everyone else. With maturity he may be understanding what that does to a person -- how societal pressures make a person what they are. They are adolescents, after all. Their parents are brainwashing them into a deeply hierarchal society. You bet peer pressure makes it all the harder to move out of social roles.

Harry's godfather is beating the odds. His mentor and 'oddfather' is also beating the odds. He himself knows what it's like to live in a bubble, to be the Boy Who Lived.

Somewhere, somewhere in the backstage, some time, Harry glimpsed what Draco is like by himself, free of the pressure. Whether that is lovable or worthy enough for Harry is not for us to decide. He is, after all, Just Harry.

In the exchanges we've seen lately, Harry seems to take on some of Draco's traits. Sarcasm. Wit. It opens him up to be a little... meaner? Outspoken? With Draco he doesn't have to worry about being famous, because Draco (like him) has spent six years tearing him down, and knows all his warts. Harry knows how to play the game now... he knows how to communicate with Draco across the divide. More or less-- he doesn't know what's getting through, but he's getting a response. In a way he's dealing with a black box... what person in love doesn't? You don't know that they're going to squeeze the toothpaste tube from the middle while you're busy falling hard for them.

Harry's a Gryffindor. He's willing to take the risk.

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kearie @ April 28 2003, 12:16:09 UTC Re: my 2c

Wow that was well said, glad you had it saved!

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shusu @ April 29 2003, 09:58:42 UTC Re: my 2c

Thank you! That's a wonderful icon btw.

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conversant @ April 28 2003, 15:02:07 UTC Yes! Yes! Yes!

You've added an important 2 cents here. I hadn't thought about the effect on Harry of reading Lucius and Narcissa's posts. Of course! So now Harry can see Draco not just as a 'Dudley,' but also as a version of himself. Yes, Draco is spoiled and indulged, but now Harry knows that the money is just a shiny surface for neglect. And Harry knows about neglect. Harry has managed all this time to repress his bitterness, but now perhaps he can see the alternative in Draco: Draco says and does all the bitter, jaded, enraged things that The Boy Who Lived has never let himself say. And I bet there's a liberating, rebellious thrill in seeing someone say and do those things Harry has never said or done. And yes, you are right that in the exchanges with Draco we begin to see Harry experiment with a sharper tone, with sarcasm and wit.

Well done, shusu. Thanks.

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shusu @ April 29 2003, 10:03:52 UTC Re: Yes! Yes! Yes!

Thanks so much! You can tell I haven't been checking my lj email ^_^;;

Thinking on this more, it's almost like Harry's allowing himself to regress a little... and giving Draco the chance to grow up. Draco has been rewarded for being his parent's boy -- don't get me started on the canon meanings behind his seating between Lucius and Narcissa at the World Cup -- and now look at him, wandering around Muggle London on his own, trying something which he'd have dismissed as Muggle and dirty.

Then the backlash. But as I've stated before, these things never happen overnight.

I think that may be the overriding matter here... during the whole 'Gulf' thing it struck me that they were acting their age. The chance to be silly with someone else may be more important than any latent attraction.

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Anonymous @ April 28 2003, 10:28:16 UTC

I agree with a lot of points, but one thing I've seen is people commenting on how maybe Draco influenced Harry to be more sarcastic, confident, etc. I don't see this at all because Harry had these qualities all along. In fact, Harry has always shown a strong sarcastic side in canon (and we all know he's far tougher than he looks), and J_H, being very IC, has derived this straight from the books. Harry's sarcasm, dry wit, and cynicism often gets overlooked, but it's there.

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moonlitpages @ April 28 2003, 10:50:11 UTC

I think the basic point others are trying to make with that is while Harry's sarcasm, etc, is already there in the Cannon and such, being with PS seems to really draw it out of J_H, as can be witnessed in their banter at times. PS doesn't give J_H that confidence or sarcasm, he just incites J_H to display it more than he would usually. *shrug*

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xnera @ April 28 2003, 11:10:14 UTC

I agree.

Also, people tend to pick up the linguistic styles of their friends. Can't tell you how many times I've caught myself saying something that is a trademark of a friend of mine, or speaking like the characters on my favorite TV shows. Could simply be that Harry is starting to speak like Draco because they had been spending time together.

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darlulu @ April 28 2003, 14:05:23 UTC

Yeah, I've been wondering that myself - now more than ever. In the past, I would've put a lot of stock in chemistry and that indefinable quality of PS' others discussed above (i.e. his odd ability of charming people with his bratty behavior). And of course there'd have to have been a glimpse of something more substantial beneath...something that would give him reason to believe PS possessed the resources to be the someone JH would like to eventually pair off with.

But now - I don't really know how Harry could possibly still see something redeemable in Draco, let alone be drawn to him for any reason beyond physical attraction (which is essentially out of one's hands). There might be a chance in the future for them if Draco freaking wakes up and matures a bit, but otherwise it'd just be bizarre that a person such as Harry would *ever* hook up with someone so heartless, and immature, and cruel as PS has proven himself to be.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not one of those people who feels Draco has to necessarily be 'redeemed' at any cost. Though honestly, whenever Harry enters the picture as a possible love interest, one has to inevitably make the leap that there'd be no future to their relationship if one or the both of them didn't budge in their views of the world.

In that vein, I believe Harry could harden a bit under Draco's influence, especially when considering a postwar!Harry, but that doesn't appeal to me. I wouldn't be rooting for a H/D union on NA if they were both complete and utter bastards. Sure PS' bigotry and pettiness has been met with no small amount of amusement on my part in the past, but upon shifting the majority of his views into reality, or a reality that reflects our reality, I can honestly say that I would never like him...in fact, I'd undoubtedly despise (and pity) him. If you equate the terms 'mudblood' with 'nigger' and 'house-elf' with 'slave,' you start to get the idea.

Anyway, with respect to H/D, it's as simple as this: I agree with Harry's world views for the most part, I don't with Draco, thus I wish Draco to shift more towards Harry (willingly, of course) so I can continue to support their potential for coupledom. If that doesn't happen, I'll be forced to switch camps and support a suitor that is more worthy of JH.

Just my opinion. :)

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Anonymous @ April 28 2003, 15:34:03 UTC

I've gradually found myself thinking along the exact same lines.

I never thought N_A would slowly crush my H/D love!

Still, I can't help but maintain the faintest sliver of hope for H/D. It's like this is a real test of faith. This isn't some wussy fanon-Draco that switches to goodness and light after a quick roll in the way. This is a slow-motion, spelled-out, do-you-really-have-the-stomache-for-H/D look at what the pairing could really imply (with this version of Draco & Harry).

So even as Draco makes me think "run the other way Harry!" I can't help but have that little irrational hope. Not just for hot boy love or whatever, but because it will mean that the two characters--one of them who seems almost hopeless, one who seems so burdened--will have found a way to connect and take comfort from one another.

And that Draco will stop being quite such a little wanker.

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imochan @ April 28 2003, 16:07:15 UTC

!!!!!!!!!!!!

A Gazillion points to the house of your choice.

I think you are the most brilliant person alive.

This isn't some wussy fanon-Draco that switches to goodness and light after a quick roll in the way. This is a slow-motion, spelled-out, do-you-really-have-the-stomache-for-H/D look at what the pairing could really imply (with this version of Draco & Harry).

YES, that's exactly it. YES. YES. YES. Oh God, this is better than sex. :DDDD

... it will mean that the two characters--one of them who seems almost hopeless, one who seems so burdened--will have found a way to connect and take comfort from one another.

I love you. Would you like an LJ code?!?

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Anonymous @ April 28 2003, 17:51:36 UTC

Hee!
I'm a weirdo who doesn't want a LJ <3
But I am v. flattered and think you are loffy.

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imochan @ April 28 2003, 17:59:18 UTC

<333 Are not weird. Are very smart to say no to this soul-sucking obsession. :D

May I bake you virtual cookies instead? >:D

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sistermagpie @ April 28 2003, 20:02:59 UTC

Eep! Everybody makes excellent points and I agree with everyone! I struggle to see what I can add...

I can't believe I hadn't really thought about the journals. PS really does use his journal like nobody else--to make himself the hero of his own story. As was said above, Draco is very honest when it comes to his emotions so his posts reveal much more than he thinks. It does make sense that Harry would start to see him differently and understand he was covering up. I also agree with the ideas about his physical attraction making him look for things worthwhile. It's absolutely true that Harry is one of the only people in the school who probably can relate to Draco's feelings of rejection by his family. I also do tend to think that Harry sees Draco as having feelings much like him sometimes, just projecting his feelings out instead of bottling them up like Harry. They can learn from each other, believe it or not.

This is why I really do think this incident can be gotten past. I'm not sure exactly how hard Harry is taking it now since he hasn't really posted, but I think he remained secure in his good friends--and he doesn't really care what others think of him, as we know. That's not to dimish the pain and humiliation and rejection he must be feeling and I don't think that will be gotten over anytime soon. But as wrong as what Draco did was it really did have the exact opposite effect on Harry as intended--it brought Harry closer to his friends and calmed his insecurities. It was Draco who was suddenly seen as repulsive to his family.

The incident that, imo, set Draco off on a mission to hurt Harry deeply was Narcissa's gift, which Colin made fun of. In his response to Colin I think Harry showed that he really did understand how badly Draco might take that. I loved him when he said, "I really hate it when you say things like this because it isn't funny and it isn't true." That's probably the nicest, most directly reassuring and positive thing anyone's ever said to/about Draco. But Draco probably just saw it as Harry laughing at him if he himself thought Colin was right.

Of course I don't mean Harry read Draco's rantings and said, "Oh, poor dear is just upset about his mother." I think Harry may have suspected the correct cause but still have been blindsided by how violent Draco's homophobia was. He'd know Draco was very frightened of the idea after the party, and would know that when Draco is afraid he lashes out. But still, there's no way that post wasn't devestating. If Draco improved as a person so he showed remorse over it (which he doesn't now) I think Harry could forgive him, especially if Draco was gay himself and having trouble dealing with it. I mean, as this incident has proved, a person's sexuality is a private thing. Harry himself may have struggled with his and been truly grateful to have godfathers to talk to...we don't know how he felt about it when he was struggling alone. That may have been why Harry was so sensitive to Draco after the party. If he'd been apprehensive about his own feelings he may have felt sympathetic for bringing the matter up with someone else

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Anonymous @ April 28 2003, 21:46:38 UTC

I know the topic is "what does Harry see in Draco," but your post just makes me want to cry for poor Harry.

*sniffles*

Even a "reformed" Draco would be a huge challenge to take on.

I wonder if being brought up with the Dursleys has made Harry secretly feel like people close to him should de-value him... if they don't de-value him, they're not close to him and don't really know him. Or if he has certain masochistic tendancies...

It's not something I really get from canon (as Harry is amazingly well-adjusted and confident), but well... I don't really get Harry having a crush on Malfoy from canon either. But if I try to follow the extrapolation path from canon that N_A has started...


I think Harry DELETING his journal is a good indication of how the post affected him.

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sistermagpie @ April 29 2003, 07:25:51 UTC

I do too.:(

And I also had considered the idea that Harry might have some self-destructive tendencies after life with the Dursleys that might drive him to a less than healthy partner. Thing is...I was talking with a friend about this last week. Living with violence, or in this case maybe just conflict, does change a person, I think. Harry's response to it may be very different from, say, Ron's who's been brought up in a loving home (even when there's conflicts). It's possible that he really does sort of feel like something's "missing" if that anger or barely contained violence isn't there. I mean, as nice as it was in the thread where people were considering who would be "worthy" of Harry I couldn't honestly imagine any of them. They were all very nice people but...that was the problem. If Harry was with them there would be that same divide there always is between him and Ron, that Ron's idea of darkness is Harry's idea of, well, two o'clock in the afternoon on a foggy day, if that makes sense.

Draco, too, has been brought up in Harry's type of home and although he is obviously the bad guy in this situation with Harry I really feel like he might be acting out of the same bad impulses. If Harry is drawn to Draco who hates him, isn't Draco also drawn to Harry who hates him? In hurting Harry Draco has not only begged for more hate but brought the whole school down on his head--and while there were some surprises there I don't think the imagined outcome of Draco's post to Harry was much different. Remember what he said to Colin that one time--yes the Gryffindors and Harry hate him, but at least he was trying to bother them. Draco elicits negative responses from people all the time on purpose.

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