cirakaite @ May 12 2003, 02:40:24 UTC

*fangirls Erica*

Now that's out of the way- I think you've put together a great analysis of *why* Draco might have outed Harry, especially considering his reaction to Seamus' revelation that it was real.

So why did he need to know? What got Draco so curious that he was willing to ask such risky questions, in public, knowing it might have seriously angered his father as much as it turned out to cause his father pride. Asking was a risk. Why was it worth it?

Part of that may or may not be related to Harry, but is more about Draco himself, and his position. Up until now, Draco has acted and reacted very much like a child in most situations- he sulks, he alternately clings and pushes people away, etc. Last night, with both his mother and his father, he was more analytical. The questions themselves betray how little knowledge of his father's dealings with Voldemort he has. He's been following blindly, and now seems to be reevaluating everything around him. It may have been prompted by a need to judge Harry's worldview, but either way, it looks like he's ready to begin growing up.

I'll probably have more to say later- you brought up a number of very good points!

cirakaite @ May 12 2003, 02:46:46 UTC

Maybe not so much later, after all *g*

I just wanted to agree with you on the issue of the raincloud. The incident with Millicent does seem to indicate the it's reflecting his mood, and a stormy day is often symbolic of confusion. The professors who gave it to him may not have expected it to be a raincloud at all- a small tank would make far more sense as defense, and Draco's "enraged" mood never seems to get quite as anger-filled as Millicent, so they might not have expected the disastrous results.

The change to "fine" . . . that made me very, very happy. Not as a D/H shipper, but because that, and the subsequently snarky, but not actually cruel, post makes it look like Draco had come to terms with whatever he was wrestling with. That, if anything, heralded the changes that I mentioned in my post above.

fourscore @ May 12 2003, 02:56:06 UTC

I didn't think Draco was asking those questions to be introspective about his father at all. Draco just generally always seems to whine about not knowing anything. His father wouldn't tell him who opened the chamber of secrets. He says this in CoS. Sally Anne in her letter says Draco is dying to know where Durmstrang is because Lucius wont' tell him. I just think Draco gets mad that his father won't confide secrets in him.

Anonymous @ May 12 2003, 08:32:03 UTC

I would have to agree with this. In his first comment to his father (on purestblood's entry maybe?), he essentially reprimands his father for not telling him anything, saying that he screened the comments because it seemed prudent and he never would have asked them if he'd had any idea what sort of information would result.

I love that in the threads on potterstinks's LJ entry, both j_h and ps outmanouver Lucius (when he's not drunk/under veritaserum). J_H goads him into implicating himself in a crime, and PS reminds him that he's being had in this way - and gets him to adopt the appropriate position on the topic. I think that this - more than many other things - would raise PS's opinion of J_H tremendously: not only does J_H stand up to Malfoy, Sr., but he's getting the better of him. It puts J_H on the sort of level PS would consider worthy, if he weren't already there. I would think PS would respond much more positively to this J_H than to despondent-stalker!J_H.

bookshop @ May 12 2003, 12:03:30 UTC

I would think PS would respond much more positively to this J_H than to despondent-stalker!J_H.

they make a beautiful pair.

also, i find it ironic that the point at which j_h shuts lucius up is by getting him where it hurts: that voldemort doesn't trust him enough to tell him. i think that's probably draco's weak spot too, one of them: that his father doesn't trust him enough to tell him things.

bentley @ May 12 2003, 04:11:19 UTC

As a closet NRager, I'd also like to take this time to point out that it is heading in the direction of plot development, as Sinistra has paired them together for the Astronomy Thing. It could ust be my shipper instincts kicking in, but nights together under the stars...

Anyway, very well done, excellent analysis and you're right, they probably are going somewhere with all of this. *claps above*

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 05:28:23 UTC

This is such a great post. I love the way you integrate so much evidence into a comprehensive theory of how, and why, PS may be shifting sides. And I'm totally persuaded that a shift like that is going on -- a total realignment of PS' loyalty and commitments, where his attitude to his father, the implications of Death Eater politics, and any possible connection with Harry, all fit together and force him to maybe make the first independent choice of his life.

I can't do justice to all your points in the rush of the morning, and want to come back to them. For now, just for the sake of argument, of thinking through all the possibilities, I want to toss just one issue back at you.

You suggest that it may be an incipient fondness, even attraction, for Harry, combined with his own sexual anxieties, that may be pulling PS away from his family. And this is very possible. But I also wonder if the push-pull works the other way, that Draco's primary crisis has to do with his relations with his parents, that what's rocking his world is his experience of their own fallibility. And as he takes a fresh look at the world, and starts thinking and calculating for himself, Harry is just one of several potential "prizes" that make starting a new game seem attractive.

Looking back on PS' posts from almost exactly a year ago, it's obvious how much of his own identity is wrapped up in who his parents are. He's boasting about his parents in every other post; his self-worth is wrapped up in seeing himself as an extension of his beautiful and glamorous and loving mother, his powerful and politically connected and doting father. It's a bottomless source of comfort and security and he literally doesn't need anything else, emotionally, in his life.

In fact, there's a revealing comment in one of his posts to Ron, on the outing thread, where he says "Hogwarts isn't my life." He's deluded, of course. But he can afford to think of his actual day-to-day life as an illusion, as a kind of spectacle where he is a detatched observer, as long as he can sustain that kind of infantile identification with his parents. I would argue from ordinary experience, rather than the text, to suggest that the collapse of this security would be more of a crisis for PS than anything that might happen at Hogwarts.

And what's happened in recent days and weeks? His reasons for becoming disillusioned with his mother have been beaten to death, so I won't cite them here. But his father has been diminished in his eyes, too. He's seen his father behave like a fool. He's seen the gulf between his father's rhetoric and his actual tangled relationship with Sirius and Remus and Severus. Most recently, he's seen his father use terrible judgment in yesterday's argument with Harry -- exposing himself to charges of complicity in the murder of Harry's parents, for the purpose of scoring malicious emotional points off Harry. Nobody that foolish could be as politically savvy and influential as Lucius pretends to be, however much his money makes him welcome in high circles.

So he's lost both the sense of boundless uncritical love from his mother, and boundless derived power and superiority from his father. It's almost a cliche, but . . . he's growing up. His certainties have been shattered. He's being forced to find his own, rather than a derived, identity. And he's feeling horribly disoriented. Given his ambiguity about whether Hogwarts is even his "real life," I can't believe that a crush on Harry, even if it existed, was quite as powerful a force in getting him to this point.

I totally agree with you, that in the midst of this crisis, Draco is almost desparately trying to assess his other options. Can he find people who like and respect him for who he is, not just for his parents' sake? Can he be himself -- and maybe that includes homosexual issues -- and not be crushed or despised socially? And Draco is never going to be content to be just a face in the crowd, so can he find a firmer basis for having a high opinion of himself?

[to be continued . . . post length limit]

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 05:28:51 UTC

[continued]

The reason I'm still worried about PS' intentions toward JH is that I think PS has several ways, some of them dysfunctional, to potentially solve his problem. It isn't guaranteed that he's going to be converted and saved by love at this point. It's at least possible that he'll respond to the recent shocks by becoming a purely defensive manipulator of everyone, extracting rather than earning the tribute and status that he feels is his due. He may decide to ally with Harry, and by extension with Remus and Sirius and ultimately Dumbledore, simply for protection. He may remain immune to love because he's not trusting enough for it. And all that would be a tragedy for him, which is why we, as readers, wait and worry.

So we have to keep on waiting and watching. But clearly, there's a big shift in the works. I just think its direction, and the consequences for Draco, are still very much in doubt.

More later!

imochan @ May 12 2003, 07:35:00 UTC

I'm still worried about PS' intentions toward JH is that I think PS has several ways, some of them dysfunctional, to potentially solve his problem.

I agree both with what you said, and Erica's very well-organized post (especially the theories on why PS outed Harry). Now, this line caught my attention. It does sort of raise an interesting issue that I've seen crop in posts in reaction to stuff like The Outing: Is PS "good enough" for JH?

Even some staunch H/D shippers of Nraged have decided that no, they'd rather see Harry try and be happy with someone else who cares a great deal for him (do we actually have any Ron/Harry shippers here? O_o) than continue this crush on Draco Malfoy and basically doom himself to another two school years of moody outbursts, gut-wrenching smackdowns in defense of PS's own pride, and people getting their fingers cut off. ;D Unless, of course, PS really is changing... and in that case, what do you people (those of you who thought that Harry should be with someone else) think now? Is there any hope? Do you believe that PS can be "better" than we've seen him? Do you want him to be?

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 08:21:10 UTC

Personally I've never thought he should be with someone else because...there is no one else. It makes sense to me that this is who Harry wants. The only problem is that right now what Harry is attracted to is the potential.

But yeah, I think the potential is starting to blossom a little. And remember, it's not like ps is just getting off scot-free here. He's having to pay for his actions with a lot of personal suffering. It's not that I'm saying this cancels out Harry's suffering or should make Harry forgive him, just that it's not like ps is just waiting around for Harry to try again. He's growing. He's changing. I'm seeing the starts of it. I would much rather see Harry together with a kinder, wiser potterstinks that with some random guy who's nice to him. Because I do think that Harry identifies with something in ps even at his worst. Hermione simply has to be wrong about thinking this is about looks and Quidditch. Harry may not be able to explain why he likes Draco now, but I think his instincts are healthy. After all, look at Remus and Sirius! An outsider would probably be equally pessimistic about that, given Sirius' past. Remus, however, knows better.

imochan @ May 12 2003, 08:35:41 UTC

Amen! :D I'm with you.

The only problem is that right now what Harry is attracted to is the potential.

I really liked this line. :D We know that Harry finds Draco attractive, but we never really found out why, and in what way. I do remember there being a long speculation!post on "Why Harry likes Draco", and I don't think I could possibly begin to summarize all that was said, but i think you definitely got part of it with "I do think that Harry identifies with something in ps even at his worst". However, I'm also a firm believer in that cliched Opposites Attract theory, and maybe there's something that j_h admires in ps because it's something that j_h is no

shusu @ May 12 2003, 09:06:43 UTC

For reference, Why Does Harry Like Draco posted by sistermagpie.

Anonymous @ May 12 2003, 08:21:15 UTC

the reason I'm still worried about PS' intentions toward JH is that I think PS has several ways, some of them dysfunctional, to potentially solve his problem

What was chilling for me was purestblood's response to potterstinks at some point in that thread, something about "I'm glad you have Harry's trust. Trust is an issue for him."

One imagines that Lucius wouldn't be glad about this for purely altruistic reasons. It's a classic set-up in H/D fanfic - because it's an issue that has to be dealt with if your characters are very canon-like: will Draco betray Harry? Or won't he? It would clearly gain him parental approval apparently. So it is just a question, what will PS do for parental approval, with his new, hopefully clearer picture of his parents?

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 11:11:02 UTC

The trust comment definitely is a chilling line, and I think it may even be a head game Lucius is playing with Harry -- Draco makes a move to ally with Harry, and Lucius attempts to block the move by subtly planting a seed of doubt about Draco's intentions.

I love the ambiguity, which is consistent -- the sharing of the email also admits two interpretations, that Draco is being kind to Harry, or that he realizes his father is foolishly getting himself into trouble just to spite Harry, and stops him before he can get in too deep.

Of course, a Draco who is newly competent at this kind of maneuvering could simply be acting on his own agenda, too, disassociating himself from anything that could get him into Azkaban, keeping his options open with both Harry and his father, letting things develop as they may, and letting the chips fall as they may, depending on how cleverly other people act.

Just FYI, a couple of us are kicking around similar issues on this thread here.

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 08:14:10 UTC

Ooooh what a great post! I see a lot of the things you're seeing, though I think my own thoughts are a little different--closer to Black Dog's, in fact, especially on the subject of Draco being a child. The real change I think we're seeing in him now is the glimmer of an ability to think instead of just reacting emotionally. I had been originally surprised when ps ran out of the werewolf demonstration because I thought surely he'd be determined to stay to save face. But people on nraged pointed out to me that Draco really just reacts emotionally and then tries to save face. They were right and I think that's a key to understanding him.

I think he was still behaving that way when he was with Harry, so he wasn't yet doing any testing with him. He enjoyed spending time with Harry and it showed. When Harry was late for a meeting he stormed up to get him. Then he got angry at Harry (I think because of Narcissa) and lashed out at him again like a child. I honestly don't think his outing post was meant to be as calculatedly devestating as it was--it was meant to be calculatedly hurtful but I don't think he really understood what he was doing. In fact, he says he didn't.

Over and over in the past few months he's seen his emotional outbursts get him into trouble. When he tried to protest that he hadn't used real blood in the Sally-Anne incident and that he was only joking about Harry being gay he really did seem like a child who didn't understand the consequences of his actions. He seemed to kind of feel like he could lash out when he was angry and then have it go away when he wasn't. His "fine" post and his possible confusion and hurt about the reaction to it also seems to go along those lines. He's trying out a new emotion and getting shot down. (Of course I'm not saying he thinks Harry should just forget about the outing incident etc.--he wanted to end that friendship in that moment and he knows he succeeded.)

As much as I want the H/D to happen I definitely don't think Harry can be Draco's savior here. What I think is moving us closer towards it is, as others have said, Draco's starting to separate himself from his family. When Lucius fights with Harry Draco significantly brings his own unique perspective to the issue instead of just backing Lucius up. In a way he's being a little like Narcissa in leaving the Manor--when she asserted her independence and rejected Lucius he wanted her all the more. Draco's own withdrawal is having a similar effect on his parents but he seems a lot more serious about it. (Which is normal--Draco should gain independence from his parents whereas wives and husbands should work out compromises.) He's just not as overjoyed to have his parents attention back as he probably thought he would be. It's surprisingly easy for him, I think, to continue to ignore Narcissa and be merely polite to Lucius. I'm starting to think we should take him at his word when he says re: his mother's night yelling in the common room, "Oddly I don't have much to say about that particular matter." He really isn't playing the game we'd expect of him with his parents, but a better one. His two interactions with Narcissa pre-and post-lost weekend were almost copies of each other: ps: Why did you tell the girls I was 14? N: I got flustered. ps: This conversation is over. In the past he would have probably accepted Narcissa's explanation and tried to wheedle a present out of it.

It seems to me that the most important thing he's been seeing family wise is, like BD said, the hypocrisy. He said flat-out to Narcissa that their morality changes with their moods. The Malfoys have been very careless lately with Draco and so have missed his beginning to question things he never had before. Draco's sending the e-mail to Harry shows a whole new desire to be truly trusted, not to mention an acknowledgement that more than his Malfoy word is needed. I think Draco now knows all too well how it feels to be lied to by adults and finds himself naturally identifying with Harry there as well as wanting to prove his family (and so he) really is innocent. (con't)

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 08:14:26 UTC

It's true the raincloud pretty painfully showed what he took to be rage was...something else. M.B.'s protection was just that. Draco's not only didn't protect him but it hurt him. Other people could see him, but he was cut off from them by the thunder and rain. He tried to conjure an umbrella and the cloud stayed under it. What's kind of happy about it for him is that in the end he got rid of it! In fact, that may be part of what sounds so jaunty in his long description of his detentions. Each one was a test that he faced and conquered. Locked in at midnight, he tunneled his way out. He no longer needs someone to try to get Vector to stop them. He's more like, "She can do her worst." You can't help but root for him when he's like that.

Plus, you know he's doing something right because M.B. agreed to fly with him. I think she can see the change as well.

Anonymous @ May 12 2003, 21:13:32 UTC "outing" and "Goyle's finger"

Many many interesting and well-argued points.

2 nitpicks:

Re: Outing

And so, he sets out to acquire as much information as he can, because no informed Slytherin would make risky choices without full information at hand. And so, he Outs Harry.

I think you are assigning Draco a more cool and rational head here than he really had, as well as claiming he was actually *trying* to out Harry.

This has been argued back and forth, but I thought that there was a general consensus here that potterstinks did not actually (consciously) think just_harry was gay when he made his most infamous post. The homophobic comments were a tool used to hurt Harry (and why attack at that point in time?: general thought is Narcissa's attention to Harry coupled with subconscious sexuality fears) ... and they happened to cut deeper than expected and ultimately blew up in his face.

The fact that he attacked with homophobic comments rather than other nasty insults is probably very telling, though.

I think potter_stinks has some calculation in him, but tends to be ruled by his passions much more than his reason. And I haven't seen much evidence for his planning-ahead skills. He can talk a good game and fence brillinatly with words, but.... Still, I see him more as stumbling towards development on (sometimes amazingly astute) instinct and some brilliant flashes of emotional insight, than rationally proceeding considering his options.



Re: Goyle's finger

True, then he went and cut off Goyle's finger. But he honestly seems to have thought it would be easily fixed. Also, that's turned into a convenient way for real-world consequences to be displayed. I have a feeling the Saga of Goyle's Finger isn't over yet.


Dude, He *cut off* a *finger*. Goyle's not the easiest guy to identify with, but... that's pretty rough. Especially since Goyle is theoretically his longstanding friend/goon. I'm trying to reserve judgment. After all things seem to be more violent and fixable in the wizarding world, so chopping off a friend's finger might not be as big a deal.

And yes, Draco told Goyle that his finger was on ice with Pomfrey, and apologized. BUT! it turns out that this was a joke finger. Was this extra maliciousness on potter_stinks' part, or the work of someone else entirely?

moojja @ May 12 2003, 21:35:06 UTC Re: "outing" and "Goyle's finger"

Given that Potter lost all the bones in his arm, and that was fixed. I assumed the finger would also be easily fixed. From what Goyle's list of Weasly jokes, I assumed that it was one of them.

sistermagpie @ May 13 2003, 07:36:23 UTC Re: "outing" and "Goyle's finger"

I think potter_stinks has some calculation in him, but tends to be ruled by his passions much more than his reason. And I haven't seen much evidence for his planning-ahead skills. He can talk a good game and fence brillinatly with words, but.... Still, I see him more as stumbling towards development on (sometimes amazingly astute) instinct and some brilliant flashes of emotional insight, than rationally proceeding considering his options.

That totally sums him up for me as well. The outing, I think, is better compared to him swinging wildly with a sledgehammer than aiming a fatal shot at Harry's heart.

Dude, He *cut off* a *finger*.

I don't think, as strange as it sounds, that this was that big of a deal. He hexed it off, just as somebody hexed his esophoegus to swell up or hexed his ears into tomatoes. It should have been easily fixed, had there not been a joke finger and Colin hadn't (ewww!) eaten it.

Anonymous @ May 14 2003, 23:59:23 UTC Re: "outing" and "Goyle's finger"

Does anyone else think that the finger-eating was disturbingly phallic?

I think that Goyle and Colin would be great together, if only because Goyle wooing Colin by helping him build a homophobia club (thinly disguised as anti-potter) is too ironically cute for words.

Anonymous @ July 2 2004, 18:58:06 UTC

I know it's been over a year and all, but...

My GOD you got it!!!

dancingrain @ July 2 2004, 19:40:19 UTC *boggles*

Holy crap, people are reading this post a year later? What on earth is happening to cause that?

Kinda cool. :D