| untiemybinds @ 2003-05-26 22:24:00 |
Narcissa is enraged as well.
Yes Draco, why would the Weasel think such a thing?
Comments:
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:29:14 UTC |
Thanks awfully for making a new topic. Those squeezed comment threads were driving me up the wall. :D
Damn, Draco really believes Harry told Ron this? *watches forlornly as ps/j_h relationship goes down drain*
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:31:17 UTC |
See, Narcissa still believes in that dear boy that she bought an lj account for! Loffly Narcissa!
(parent)| untiemybinds @ May 26 2003, 18:33:34 UTC |
I love her!!
Oh, forget it! I <3 them all!
All the NAer's are the best thing since apple pie, I'm telling you! *loves them*
| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 18:38:43 UTC |
I noticed that Draco has yet to answer his mother's last question.
(parent)| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 18:40:42 UTC |
It makes me wonder how much of the outing Narcissa took in. I mean...is she aware that Harry has a crush on Draco? She should be, but perhaps she didn't much pay attention to that part? I really hope Harry says something to her so we see them interact.
(parent)| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:43:23 UTC |
That's what I'm wondering. Does she know for sure that Harry's gay? She seems to miss a lot at times. And if so, does she know of the "threat" he presents to her darling son and heir? This could potentially ruin what was such a lovely hamburger-and-salmon relationship between Narcissa and Harry.
(parent)| untiemybinds @ May 26 2003, 18:48:38 UTC |
I really kind of wonder if she even knows what "gay" is. I'm not sure why I wonder but I just do.
Probably because she seemed to always miss the Lucius/Sirius/Severus/Remus sexual innuendo of the past as well. I think she is rather immune to this type of thing
| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 19:31:44 UTC |
Well, that fixed the squeezed comment threads right good.
(parent)| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 19:37:38 UTC Oh. Well. |
Heh. We manage to fill up space rather quickly, don't we?
(parent)| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 19:55:46 UTC Re: Oh. Well. |
But not quite the 316 posts from the Outing. Over half-way there though.
(parent)| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 20:06:45 UTC Re: Oh. Well. |
This is hardly as important an F5-event as the Outing. But since it heavily involves H/D that we've been missing for awhile, coupled with the fact that NrAged's been slow of late, must mean that everyone's taking advantage of the opportunity to get back into posting-gear again.
(parent)| untiemybinds @ May 26 2003, 18:35:05 UTC |
Best way to get rid of someone!
Distract them with a game!
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:37:14 UTC |
True. Ron really has been wanting to do something with Percy of late, or so I'm concluding from all the Hullo-ing going on. On to Literati, Ron! Away from high fashion and in-denial boyfrinds!
(parent)| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 18:43:25 UTC |
I do love Percy; the calm in the storm. It's nice to see him reaching out in Ron's time of need. I hope they fun with their game.
| tropes @ May 26 2003, 18:38:18 UTC |
I don't know if anyone has posted about this so I will. It seems that ROn has been hinting at Draco for quite some time...
http://www.livejournal.com/users/potter
Interesting. Also, hilarious.
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:40:13 UTC |
Apparently Ron has been mystifying Draco with his suggestive comments all day. And now it's finally come to a head. And poor Harry is the one who suffers.
(parent)| bluekivrin @ May 26 2003, 18:44:03 UTC |
Nice catch. I hadn't even thought about those, but it fits, as always.
*mad schnoogles to NA players* Oh, they're good.
 |
princess_draco @ May 26 2003, 18:40:28 UTC |
Draco has taken 2-3 minutes to reply to each comment. It's been 12 minutes and he still hasn't replied.
*crosses fingers that he won't hurt Harry*
|
princess_draco @ May 26 2003, 18:42:45 UTC Re: |
But say something... GOOD.
like, "Because we are together" or "because I realise that I could like him a lot" etc.
| untiemybinds @ May 26 2003, 18:44:05 UTC |
Oh, I SO wish he would say that!
Come on, Draco. Make us proud!
*wibbles*
|
chibi_draco @ May 26 2003, 18:45:18 UTC |
http://www.livejournal.com/community/no
He speaks again!
|
chibi_draco @ May 26 2003, 18:47:43 UTC |
Ignore my ignorance but why? ;-;! I'm so confused tonight
(parent)| untiemybinds @ May 26 2003, 18:50:15 UTC |
Because he doesn't say outright the reason! Which means he doesn't say anything that could hurt Harry.
(parent) |
chibi_draco @ May 26 2003, 18:51:00 UTC |
Ah-Hah!
Wai~ Yay ps! Don't hurt Harry anymore than he has been lately!
| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 18:59:36 UTC |
He actually gave the honest answer. Because he's POTTER with all that that word implies for Draco.
...and what all that implies is something only ps can work out for himself...He has no specific reason why Harry would say such a thing. He just...needs to say he did right now.:-)
| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 18:51:10 UTC |
The answer he gave isn't an answer at all and his mother knows that. She asked him again.
(parent)| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:53:11 UTC |
I like it because it's not anything hurtful, nor does it reveal Harry's crush. It's almost protective of Harry's reasoning. Also, it's a little as if Harry is special in Draco's view. Anyone else would have their reasonings, but feels Potter is Potter. Oh, was I so squeeing when he was disgruntled over Harry's wardrobe change. :D I also like to imagine Draco mulling over his mother's question for 15 minutes, and then finally falling back on his usual dependable answer: "Because he's Potter." How can he deny that j_h means something to him?
(parent) |
chibi_draco @ May 26 2003, 18:54:38 UTC |
Wow, at least someone is getting more insight in this than I am, obviously. Sank you for explaining, I feel better now. My finger hurts, though.
*waves a tiny j_h/ps flag and hopes for the best*
| untiemybinds @ May 26 2003, 18:55:15 UTC |
And doesn't he know by know that it's BLOODY OBVIOUS Harry means something to him?! Even if it's just as friend! :(!
(parent)| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 18:45:15 UTC |
Yeah, Narcissa has no way of knowing how loaded this question is.
I'm hoping that one of the many reasons ps hasn't replied is that he doesn't really want to post that Potter is the anti-christ, which was his default reason for most things once upon a time...
|
princess_draco @ May 26 2003, 18:46:49 UTC Re: |
Yeah, I hope he doesn't want to hurt/badmouth Harry now, so he's refraining from it.
*wibbles*
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:45:44 UTC |
I'm so afraid he's crafting another scathing post that will tear apart several burgeoning relationships. On the other hand, perhaps he is ashamed to admit that a boy has a crush on him. Though you'd think it'd be something he'd flaunt- and maybe he would, if it was anyone other than Harry. Maybe he cares after all.
(parent)| untiemybinds @ May 26 2003, 18:52:31 UTC |
Oh, I love him too!! "Because he's Potter!" !!!!
Narcissa even points out that he didn't answer the question! Don't mess up now Draco!
| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 19:04:45 UTC |
I think M.B. is worried about that as well, and has told him to stop talking.
I hope she's got the gunnysack ready.
|
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 18:43:55 UTC |
I am so DRAINED from my F5 war. *huggles* I feel as if we are battlecomrades.... warring with the F5 key desperately trying to keep up. How are you holding up camp?
(parent)| tropes @ May 26 2003, 18:45:14 UTC |
Chain smoking and convulsively twitching. You all right?
(parent) |
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 18:47:32 UTC |
I'm so hyper. My "real life" friends think I have completely lost it. Maybe I should make more fandom friends. Anyone want to be my fandom friend? I have a sickness. It's like A.A.
My name is Elise Jean, and I am addicted to Nocturne Alley.
| tropes @ May 26 2003, 18:49:20 UTC |
I'll be your fandom friend. *supports you in your N_A-induced hysteria*
(parent) |
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 18:57:28 UTC Re: |
Score!
*throws small party with hats and such* I'll friend you in a minute! Yay! Fandom friends!
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 18:58:13 UTC |
Hullo. My name is Anjali, and I have minimized RealJukebox playing H.T. from Trigun, an abandoned paragraph written for a five-page paper due tomorrow morning, two NrAged screens, three NA screens, and 35 screenshots. :D
(parent) |
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:00:54 UTC Re: |
Wah! May I friend you as well? We shall persevere.... (I have two NrAged, four NA, two email, a few IM's that I've been ignoring and some assignments scattered round that I have yet to begin, oh and a minimized Windows Media Player playing stereolab. Oh and Paint Shop Pro from when I was going to make icons.... completely abandoned)
(parent)| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 19:05:16 UTC |
Go right ahead. :D I think the trick to really knowing people is finding out what they have minimized. *nods sagely* Ooh, icons! My fingers itch to make some that say 'Harry has a boyfriend and his name is Malfoy'... *scampers off*
(parent) |
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:16:36 UTC Re: |
*friended* Well, hugs and kisses. And feel free to friend me, and we can spam each other with goodness. Yay! Fandom friends!!!
(parent) |
ex_meiko437 @ May 26 2003, 20:51:20 UTC |
Hullo~! Welcome.. it is QUITE ADDICTING >:D
I, currently, have an abandomed game of Literati, quite a few abandoned IMs that have since died as I signed off AIM, and an abandoned art self-portrait.
My personal favorites include M.B. and Malfoy, but all of NA is great *shrug*
| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 18:47:28 UTC |
I'm holding up rather well. I have my "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" soundtrack (Harry cover) spinning on my CD player, so that is rather calming. I do need a glass of water but am deathly afraid of moving from my seat.
How are you?
|
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 18:52:18 UTC Re: |
I'm better now. Calmed down. I got myself some caffeine. *twitches* Livejournal RPG that I am not even a character in shouldn't affect me so.... I have a sickness
(parent)| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 19:04:59 UTC |
Good to hear, caffeine is the food of the Gods in my view.
I think that if so many people can come together over something that is, by all accounts, unreal then that says something for the people who take time to keep us all so emotionally off-balance. Here's to all the players! Hugs all around!
Can someone make official NA icons stating that we are all sick and need to be quarantined? I'm surprised someone hasn't done it already.
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hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:38:16 UTC |
You must! NA is a sickness. I think I'd rather be on drugs than NA... it's more socially accepted I think.
(parent)| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 19:53:46 UTC |
Sadly, I can not make icons. My computer has neither the space or speed and I lack icon making skills.
I'm sorry but I will have to leave that wonderful task to a better person and faster computer.
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ex_meiko437 @ May 26 2003, 20:52:57 UTC |
I felt the same way for a long while but gave up on that thought. Why fight it? It's enjoyable. ^^
Would clean up the tower of empty Dr Pepper cans but the garbage pail is such a far reach away.
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hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 20:55:11 UTC Re: |
*snickers* Yes, give in... I don't think I'm strong enough to fight the inevitable withdrawal anyway.
So, cheers to losing last precious grips on reality.
| imochan @ May 26 2003, 18:59:06 UTC |
Wah! Have a feeling this may result in another one of those Post Traumatic Stress Disorder thingers. :((
(parent)| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 19:34:01 UTC |
notapipe reporting for duty sir!
The trick is to get drafted at the last possible moment.
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hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:36:54 UTC Re: |
*snerkle*
I wish I hadn't gone online tonight in a way... *eyes work* maybe I'll just skip tomorrow... oh GOD, NA is a drug... inability or unwillingness to engage in normal activities is definitely one of the "warning signs"
| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 20:22:13 UTC |
I have a friend who says basically the same thing. However, he is now miles away since it's summer break, so his silly attempts to help me no longer affect me.
(parent) |
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 20:24:22 UTC Re: |
The thing is... NA makes me avoid my other geeky hobbies too... I'm not keeping up with other embarassing fandom things either. NA is the One True *mumbles off into incoherency*
(parent)| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 20:37:52 UTC |
God, I know. N_A stole gaming from me for a while, until Battlefield: 1942, which stole the refreshfest from me; and it also worked hard on reducing my slash intake and pretty much eliminated the almost non-existant anime and cartoon streak (which fandom, and school, reduced before).
(parent) |
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 20:47:25 UTC Re: |
GAH! EVERYTHING... it's just so time consuming to have online hobbies. And so misunderstood by the outside world. *cossets various fandoms* My precious... We lurves you my precious... Yes, yes we do....
(parent)| shusu @ May 26 2003, 19:40:59 UTC |
You all realize this will end up in the next shipment of comment icons at 
na_icons.
I try to do them in batches.
| kokopoko @ May 26 2003, 18:45:17 UTC |
I don't get it.
What has Weasley said about Draco? And that he was hinting at?
I'm assuming he said Draco was gay but I can't find the post.
Can someone help me out here?
| tropes @ May 26 2003, 18:46:35 UTC |
In Seamis's post about Harry's clothes, Ron said that Draco and Hary were boyfriends, but I think parts of the convo may have been deleted. You can get the gist there though.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/seamus
| grammaravenger @ May 26 2003, 18:53:18 UTC |
Just wanted to point out that Draco made his "I am beautifully enraged" icon his default. Hee.
(I am newbie, hear me wibble)
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hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:23:07 UTC |
SQUEEE!!!! *schnoogles* Oh Man! Feel the N_A love to-night
(parent)| imochan @ May 26 2003, 18:53:41 UTC |
Well, the one thing I find so interesting about this is that after The Outing, I was really sure that it would take a god-awful long time before PS said ANYTHING to Harry ever again. And, what do you know it, not one or two weeks later (i could be completely off here), PS and JH are "being rather chummy" as even Seamus himself said.
Not that I don't enjoy it (because if I may: SQUEE OMFG !!!!1 >:D<), but why the change? What made him "forget" his promise never to deal with "queers" again? And even Ron, the lovable little idiot that he is, felt it was enough of a change in behaviour (the as-of-yet-explained midnight excursions might have tipped him off too) to jump to the wonderful conclusion that Harry and Draco were snogging like the best of them. I love his subtlety. Like a train wreck. Actually, more like a train colliding with a tractor-trailer which is quickly crushed by a careening plane crash. <333
At any rate, both Seamus and Ron seem to recognize the fact that PS and JH were spending a deliciously inordinate amount of time together at all hours of the day/night, but why do you think PS was "allowing" it?
| bluekivrin @ May 26 2003, 18:58:20 UTC |
I think it's because Harry didn't push the lurve thing, (Ron was the only one who still danced on the issue, but Ron's a prat in Draco's mind, and so easily ignorable) so Draco could pretend it didn't exist, and go back to the way things were before The Outing, when the two had been rather chummy.
But tonight was blatent, in your face evidence (to Draco) that not only does Harry still harbour love, but he's been expected to comply. Scary things, for a kid who so relies on everything being just so.
| bluekivrin @ May 26 2003, 18:54:20 UTC |
Yes, ok. Whew. That was mad and fun.
The dust has cleared, or at least isn't being stamped up anymore. And now, what do we have?
| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 19:06:00 UTC |
M.B. coming in to drag Draco out before he gets himself into a state?
(parent)| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 19:19:16 UTC |
I know one thing we need but he hasn't shown up yet: Remus. Harry needs a hug and some people to sit quietly in the same room with him in case he needs to talk.
I would think that something like this would unearth Hidinghusband! Sirius as well.
| bluekivrin @ May 26 2003, 22:19:27 UTC Re: |
Mm, yes. Everyone, save the Malfoys, Ron, Harry, Seamus have been completely silent. Where ARE they? And you're right, it'd seem like Remus, or maybe Ginny or Cho, would have jumped in here. It could simply be a player thing, but now I'm wondering.
(parent)| tropes @ May 26 2003, 19:03:32 UTC |
M.B. IS IN THE HOUSE.
And she takes control so... deliciously.
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hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:06:42 UTC |
I have nothing but love for that girl. She plays her character perfectly
(parent)| tropes @ May 26 2003, 19:08:03 UTC |
Damn, she lays the smackdown hard.
http://www.livejournal.com/community/no
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Anonymous @ May 26 2003, 19:08:36 UTC |
Oh My God! Her last reply? http://www.livejournal.com/community/noc
I am in shock.
| imochan @ May 26 2003, 19:09:04 UTC |
and it's effective!!
Draco: "Fine."
Excuse me while I squeeeeee...
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 19:12:52 UTC |
And now she's off to give Draco a talking-to. Man, but if anyone can bang sense into his hard head, it's her. *loves*
(parent)| tabiji @ May 26 2003, 19:33:59 UTC M.B. Fan Club |
I'd like to call this meeting of the Millicent Bulstrode Fan Club to order.
*knocks gavel and then waves an "M.B. RULES" banner*
She is my hero!
| shusu @ May 26 2003, 19:42:38 UTC Re: M.B. Fan Club |
Will collect this for the next icon batch... ^^
(parent)| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 19:44:57 UTC |
So is anyone else reading this the same way? M.B. sees the whole of the picture, and, in maybe some confession whilst flying or something, becomes Draco's confidante (and in exchange, probably, Draco agrees to stop leading Pansy on). Unlike, Ron, who WOULD respond (I'm trusting Harry here) in the exact way he's responding, but worse, M.B. needles Draco (see Gryffindor Hams) and here comes to his rescue by pulling him away, either to smack him or something.
(parent)| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 19:08:01 UTC |
Uh oh. This could be trouble.
Lucius needs to speak to Narcissa? Hope he's not planning to do something about this.
You tell her M.B.
| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 19:15:32 UTC |
Yes, I hope Powermad! Lucius doesn't strike again either. He always messes things up.
(parent)| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 20:29:08 UTC |
Well, the Malfoy Patriarch has arrived and responded in a rather surprising manner. He either hasn't read Seamus's post, acting on what his wife has told him, or he fails to see what is wrong with the picture because it doesn't bother him.
I could live without the Do try to handle the situation with the grace befitting a Malfoy.
but we can't have everything we want.
| tabiji @ May 26 2003, 19:26:25 UTC Is the wording more than it seems? |
Hmmmm...the wording today has been very interesting.
in this thread http://www.livejournal.com/users/seamus
Ron (post deleted) makes the assumption that Draco is Harry's boyfriend, because Harry has been out late a lot, and since Draco has been up nights they must be together.
Harry: It doesn't matter who I've been out with! He's not my boyfriend! What's your password?
Harry doesn't actually come out and tell Ron whether he's been out with Draco or not, just specifies that Draco isn't his boyfriend.
here http://www.livejournal.com/users/seamus
Harry: I didn't say anything! I don't know where he got this! I didn't tell him anything!
Draco: Right, I'm sure Weasley is the one sits around fantasising that I'm in some way involved with you.
Harry: I didn't tell him anything! He just got some idea! I swear I didn't tell him this!
Draco: I don't want to talk to you, Potter.
This and the thread below kind of give me the impression that maybe there is SOMETHING that Harry could have told Ron
here: http://www.livejournal.com/community/no
Narcissa: Now, now Draco. I am just as enraged as you are over the whole matter. Why would he think such a thing?
Draco: BECAUSE POTTER TOLD HIM.
|
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:31:03 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
Yes, actually, that really does make it seem like there is Something To Tell
*rubs hands for all the deliciousness*
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 19:34:26 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
Yes, I had gotten that feeling especially in the areas where Harry was wildly denying telling Ron anything. The way he says it does imply that there is something to tell. Also, Draco's responses seem almost betrayed. Even though he is offended by the boyfriend idea, he seems to admonish Harry for revealing activities to Ron that could be misinterpreted. So what are these activities? *muses*
(parent)| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 19:37:46 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
I had the same impression.
But if Draco knows anything about Harry, he knows that Harry doesn't say anything that draws attention to himself. If Harry told people that he and Draco were together, or had any other kind of understanding, it would be all over the school, drawing unwanted attention to both boys.
Maybe something did happen and Harry hasn't said anything but because Ron is acting so unlike Ron, Draco thinks he did.
Of course, this will lead to more hurt feelings and they won't speak to the other for a couple of days.
NA, meet Square One. Can we get frequent visitor miles for this?
|
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 19:45:59 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
NA, meet Square One. Can we get frequent visitor miles for this?
*bangs head repeatedly against desk*
This is too true. But, NA.. with a Happy Ending for all.... I don't see us rubbing the paint off our F5's for this. They are giving us ANGST. Everyone loves angst as much as we cry out for that Happy Ending...
*wibbles*
Wahhhh!!!!
| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 20:12:49 UTC Mathman mathman mathman... |
NA, meet Square One.
ANNOUNCER: The story you are about to see is a fib. But it's short. The names are made up, but the problems are real.
VECTOR: It was Monday 10 PM, nraged were wearing out their F5 keys and keyboard companies were seeing their stocks shoot through the roof. We were working the nightshift at Mathnet. My partner is Ernie Macmillian. My boss is Albus Dumbldore. My name is Vector, I'm an Aritmatician.
| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 20:27:36 UTC Re: Mathman mathman mathman... |
Er... Maybe it should be George Weasley.
(parent)| jitter_bug @ May 26 2003, 19:43:41 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
Speaking of curious wording, what do you make of http://www.livejournal.com/users/seamus
| tabiji @ May 26 2003, 19:56:08 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
Yes, yes!
BUT...as I re-read Draco's responses, he's pissed at RON, not Harry. If something had happened, and Harry betrayed that confidence, he would be mad at Harry, not Ron....
....BUT....then in the Narcissa thread, Draco says "I'm going to kill someone", so maybe he's just not sure who/what to believe?
*biting nails*
| black_dog @ May 26 2003, 20:00:57 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
He may genuinely not be sure whether to kill Ron or Harry.
Actually, I think he initially bought into Seamus' cover story self-protectively, because his last remark to Harry on the Seamus thread was, "I don't want to talk to you." As if to say, "OK, we'll pretend this is Ron's fantasy, but you know you stabbed me in the back."
In the Narcissa thread, I think the first person he intended to kill was Harry. Because he was quite ready to go to Azkaban, which I doubt he would do over a Weasley. He's more than just embarassed here. By the end, he comes to his senses and buys into the cover story that it's Weasley's fantasy. Perhaps Harry's emailed him? Or perhaps he's just decided to have faith in Harry? Or perhaps because he's calculated that it's his best story?
| tabiji @ May 26 2003, 20:07:17 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
Perhaps Harry's emailed him? Or perhaps he's just decided to have faith in Harry? Or perhaps because he's calculated that it's his best story?
Yea, I'm thinking it's that last part...especially with Millicent intervening as a voice of reason.
| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 20:15:23 UTC Re: Is the wording more than it seems? |
I doubt he'd listen to Harry. I think M.B. told him it was his best story.
(parent)| black_dog @ May 26 2003, 19:33:01 UTC |
why would the Weasel think such a thing?
Maybe more importantly, why would Draco think Harry told the Weasel such a thing?
I've posted most of this deep in other threads, but wanted to make it more visible here because it's a somewhat different take.
For a long time I've assumed that things between PS and JH were very tentative, JH being very careful not to get too overt with him. But Draco's reaction to the Seamus thread and to his mother's post almost persuades me to take a radically different approach.
In the exchange with Narcissa, N asks why Ron would have said such a thing, and PS says "Because Potter told him!" Not, what Ron said to him, but told him.
The first time Draco challenges Harry angrily, over what Ron was saying, his line is, "Potter what is wrong with you?" Not incredulity or disgust, but indignation, maybe betrayal. And Harry's reply is "I didn't say anything! . . . I never told him anything." Implying there was something to tell.
Could they really, after all, have had something going on? And the condition was, that it be kept a strict secret from everyone? And Ron really did make the assumption by himself, but now Draco feels Harry betrayed him by telling Ron?
A couple of people have mentioned that after a very rapid series of posts, it took Draco 15 minutes to answer Narcissa's final question -- "Why would Harry say such a thing as that." And his answer, of course, is kind of ambiguous.
Ron's post is a great example of why an H/D relationship would have had to be kept secret. And if Draco really is Harry's boyfriend, already, the resulting mess is going to be huge. If there is the failure of a secret here, Ron has even more reason to feel hurt at being left out. Even Seamus might be ticked off. And let's not get into Lucius' reaction.
Narcissa's reaction is interesting, I think. Of course she defends Draco when it just seems that Ron is slandering him. But she's not satisfied, or glossing over, his ambiguous answer on why Harry would say such a thing. Not a complete fool, Narcissa.
It's hard to say what Narcissa's ultimate reaction to H/D would be because she's so odd. In the first place, she might dismiss it as a phase, or assume it can be worked around in a worldly way with a sham marriage.
I doubt her dynastic feelings are as strong as Lucius'. She admits she's not overly fond of children. She doesn't always think very clearly, or think about the consequences of things -- and the flip side of this is that as prejudiced as she is in the abstract, she can be very accepting when confronted with a fait accompli, as long as she's not actually burdened by the circumstances.
I wouldn't be surprised if Narcissa turns out to be an important source of emotional support for PS in this. I can see her as perfectly happy to deal with Harry and Draco as a couple she found amusing.
Any thoughts? Have I lost my mind?
| anjaliesque @ May 26 2003, 19:42:23 UTC |
I think it'd be lovely if Narcissa were to take H/D under her wing the same way she did Remus/Sirius. And yes, if ps were to ever come around, she'd provide emotional support. Liking Harry, she'd probably find it very sweet. Lucius, on the other hand, would be furious. But I can easily imagine Narcissa standing up to him again for her son's sake. She really is a remarkable woman.
(parent)| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 19:51:45 UTC |
If you have, then I have too. When Draco said "Because Potter told him!" I abruptly switched into "there has DEFINETLY been a Thing going on" mode.
There is ample evidence to suggest that his later comment about a fantasy is contrived. You'll note that while Narcissa notes that PS is avoiding the question, it takes PS a LONG time to respond. In fact, it's AFTER he says "fine" to M.B. that he responds to his mother. This suggests that he, or M.B. and him, made something up to try to cover his mistake. It's very different in tone and probably misdirecting, if not a bald-faced lie.
| black_dog @ May 26 2003, 19:54:00 UTC Re: |
I agree. He's gradually realizing what a face saving story Seamus provided for him. And that the Gryffindors will stick with this story, because they are in every mood to take it out on Ron.
(parent)| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 19:59:05 UTC |
But he hasn't. He's taken Seamus's story and twisted it. He's saying POTTER has the fantasy. This is different (and one he HAS to do since he told his mom that Potter TOLD him).
(parent)| black_dog @ May 28 2003, 11:36:03 UTC |
OK, true. I skipped ahead of the emotional logic, here. The question is, "Why" did "Potter tell him." And Draco's answer -- "he's got some horrid fantasy going on that he fed to Weasley" -- still strikes me as a major, if subtle shift in responsibiilty to Weasley. Because it turns the very positive statement "Potter said X to him," into something that is 1. much vaguer, and 2. clearly an assumption that Draco is making. Draco obviously can't enter Harry's mind to positively declare that he's having "some horrid fantasy," and "fed" is an inherently vague and insinuating and outsidery term.
Because Draco can now be called out for making what sounds like an assumption, rather than testifying positively to whatever Harry might have said, the practical effect, I think, is to shift responsibility in the eyes of any third party from Harry to Ron. And that's precisely what seems to happen. Narcissa says, in effect, "that's ridiculous, Harry is a nice boy." She assumes Draco is leaping to conclusions in accusing Harry, and implicitly siezes the obvious alternative -- that it's Ron's fault. That at least seems to be the final public Malfoy version of the story. It would be harder for her to do this if Draco had said, "Ron was citing Harry as an authority." (I'm actually reserving judgment on whether Narcissa has private doubts about this version.)
OK, how's that for special pleading? :) But you're right on the facts -- sorry I misspoke.
| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 19:59:53 UTC |
Well, this was my reaction--which could be totally wrong, of course.
I thought Draco assumed Harry must have told Ron this because Ron's posts make it seem like Harry did. Ron's talking about this like it's a known fact. He even says he'll keep Draco's little secret. Ron does seem to think that Harry has told him Draco is his boyfriend because Ron knows that Harry's been sneaking out at night. To Ron that means Draco's become his boyfriend because he knows Harry likes him. Now, I think Draco knows that he's been spending a lot of time with Harry and doesn't completely trust Harry anyway, so I think this made him naturally jump to the conclusion that Harry was making a fool out of him. Clearly Potter has to be the brains behind this, right? Weasley can't be doing it himself.
So I thought Draco's response to Harry (What is wrong with you??) was Draco definitely showing disgust along the lines of, "Christ Jesus, Potter, can't I spend five minutes with you without your thinking or telling others that we're dating?" So when Harry said he hadn't told Ron any of this or anything I thought Harry meant he 1) hadn't told Ron any of the things Ron was actually saying and 2) hadn't told Ron anything of what they really had been up to, period. (If he had Ron wouldn't have jumped to the wrong conclusion.)
Then I thought there were probably many reasons ps took so long to response to Narcissa's question of why Harry would say this. One is that he does know Harry and there really is no logical reason Harry would have told Ron this story. God knows if it were true and Harry had told Ron he would have told him to keep quiet about it and not refer to Draco as his boyfriend on an lj. Plus I think Draco is probably freaking out now knowing that perhaps Harry does have reason to say something like this: Draco knows Harry has a crush on him and they've been spending time together and having fun. Perhaps he gave Potter an opening to think this way. So now he has to go overboard in being shocked and outraged to show none of it is true. Like the way he had to tell Narcissa that Potter just has these "fantasies" about him.
Definitely this does show why their relationship should be kept secret--especially from Lucius. I'm not sure Narcissa would be a real ally yet, though. She may be more like Ron, ultimately well-meaning towards the boys but clueless in a dangerous way. Plus I think it would be more interesting drama-wise if she wasn't completely in their corner. Lucius is still her husband, after all.:-)
I think Seamus is the one that knows what's truly going on from Harry's pov. He knows Harry went to buy clothes after Seamus talked about it with Draco and I suspect they had some frank discussions while on their shopping trip. That, imo, is why Seamus is able to step in so forcefully and confidently, knowing what Harry wants.
I'm still especially intrigued by Seamus telling Draco now is not the time to bring up Harry's drunken kiss because when people start attacking truths then "little bits of truth" come out and nobody wants that. Draco backs right off. I think Seamus does have some idea of the kind of relationship ps and j_h have now and while I don't think they're snogging or anything there still may be some things that ps wouldn't want to come out.
| black_dog @ May 26 2003, 20:05:08 UTC |
The voice of moderation and sense! Thank you for providing some ballast as I, personally, lurch from one extreme to another.
Am too sleepy to respond further coherently, but this has been a hugely fun day of discussion!
| babytyggeryss @ May 26 2003, 20:13:54 UTC |
If your theory about Seamus is correct (and it makes sense as Seamus has always been a source of unwavering, nonjudgmental support for Harry) then his statement saying that Ron's idea of Draco and Harry together is something out of his imagination would be true.
Seamus has also said that if Harry needs someone, he is available. I'm sure that Draco was a topic of conversation on the boys' shopping trip. Harry might have told him that he still likes Draco and Seamus offers him shoulder to cry on, as everything has now taken a violent jump in the wrong direction.
| bluekivrin @ May 26 2003, 23:14:45 UTC |
So I thought Draco's response to Harry (What is wrong with you??) was Draco definitely showing disgust along the lines of, "Christ Jesus, Potter, can't I spend five minutes with you without your thinking or telling others that we're dating?"
Yes, exactly. After the big outing earlier, the word about Harry's feelings, though implied, was never made blatant again (save Veritaserum, but I think everyone made a special allowance for that night). But now...from Draco's point of view, Ron (Harry's best friend) is openly acknowledging Harry's feelings again, and in the harshest and rudest of manners. Draco can't keep escaping the fact that Harry likes him, lots.
I've been avoiding the "h" word, but I think that some validity lies in it. The Outing post that Draco made, I believe, was real emotion. Right or wrong, it was what Draco felt. And while j_h/ps is squee-y and cute, I can't believe that the players would shove aside real emotion like that, just to get to the good stuff. This is why I'm having a difficult time believing any secret and passionate romance between the two right now. It's too soon. The only reason Draco has been cautiously "hanging" with Harry was because he could pretend that it hadn't happened. Until tonight, when all of a sudden, it's back in his face.
I'm a straight woman, so please don't kill me as I make a tentative assumption, but I would think being confronted with a man who likes you (when you yourself are a straight man) is strange and different, and, for someone as proper and structurally bound as Draco is, disconcerting and frightening. While I mildly agree with the MB-feeding-him-the-story bit that some are tossing around, I think a lot of his reaction is real, both concerning Harry ("fantasy", etc.) and Ron. Draco, remember, is one of those people who is so proud and honest that while he made be sly and clever, he won't disguise himself or what he feels, when it comes down to the facts. He's unabashed, and while scared, is still, well, himself.
Eep, I just reread your post, and realized you said some of this in three sentences. "Plus I think Draco is probably freaking out now knowing that perhaps Harry does have reason to say something like this: Draco knows Harry has a crush on him and they've been spending time together and having fun. Perhaps he gave Potter an opening to think this way. So now he has to go overboard in being shocked and outraged to show none of it is true." Oh well.
"Then I thought there were probably many reasons ps took so long to response to Narcissa's question of why Harry would say this."
I'm cautious of reading too much into time stamps here. While you have some valid reasons that I would agree with instantly if I knew the pause had been intentional, I can't get out of my mind how the players are, well, players. I remember, in the chat, that they said how time stamps don't mean so much, because sometimes they have to go pee, and so on. While the rest of the flow of comments does make this pause of extreme curiosity, I still think we should be careful.
"I think Seamus does have some idea of the kind of relationship ps and j_h have now and while I don't think they're snogging or anything there still may be some things that ps wouldn't want to come out."
Oh, that's what you were wondering at before. I completely missed it in Seamus' post, but now that you point it out, I wonder. I still see no basis for a romantic j_h/ps right now, but I think it's possible that Seamus knows more then he's telling. Ok, more then possible. But anything Seamus knows, emotionally, I think only extends to Harry, unless he has the magic ability (which he revealed here back in the Outing post) to see something that even ps won't acknowledge. I guess I don't doubt that Seamus has that distant insight, but I don't see how it can be anything more than "distant." Draco respects Seamus, but I doubt he's been spilling his heart to him.
It's lovely to analyze all of this with you, by the way. I love to pick things apart, and your posts are always insightful and intelligent.
| sistermagpie @ May 27 2003, 08:18:10 UTC |
First, thank you so much for complimenting my posts. I love talking about this stuff and everybody here always has such good things to say!
Good call on the timestamp thing--it's funny but I think the whole "taking a long time to reply" thing has become canon to me because we talked about it on nraged a lot. Really, it could have been anything--even just the player considering what to say--s/he doesn't have a script either!
The Outing post that Draco made, I believe, was real emotion. Right or wrong, it was what Draco felt.
Yes, I very much agree. I'm not sure just where Harry is going with ps right now but I think he considers ps' homophobia to be a very real thing. I suspect j_h still has hopes of romance because he did go out and get new clothes to look good for ps, but I don't think he has any illusions about the two of them being anything more than friends now.
I have a feeling the more time j_h spends with ps the more messed up he may realize ps is--that may help him be patient. ps seems to act very childishly when they are together--but not in his usual childish way. He seems to really want or need to have fun with Harry in an innocent way, playing games, play-fighting, drawing silly pictures to make Harry laugh, sneaking around at night. Remember during the outing he painted Harry as an attacker--what if he'd had a wand? What if Draco hadn't stopped him? He seems to find sexuality in general very threatening and I think he genuinely would be very hurt if he thought Harry was just stringing him along and waiting his chance to jump him. Harry had good reason to want Ron to delete those posts--he seemed very distressed at them. Not just annoyed as he probably would have been in other situations, but afraid for ps to see them. I assumed j_h was distressed because he knew he'd catch hell for it, but maybe he was also seeing it from ps' pov as well and knowing how upset he'd be seeing them.
re: Seamus-that is the type of thing I'm thinking about, a distant insight with some true insight maybe from Harry (though Harry would probably never betray ps' confidence to Seamus if he had it). I don't think Draco has made Seamus a confidante--really I doubt Draco has confided in anybody because he doesn't know what he's feeling himself. But I think Draco probably has learned that Seamus knows things even without being told. In his post Seamus isn't really threatening to spill the beans on anyone, just warning ps that if he goes down this road he's possibly going to hear and learn things he doesn't want to know. That could apply to things Harry might admit but also something ps could learn about himself. That's kind of what happened with the outing thing.
| black_dog @ May 27 2003, 14:17:58 UTC |
I must remember to stop posting at night when I get too sleepy to think in a disciplined way. And yet, as I read your extremely sensible and sensitive post, I still feel a split in my reaction -- emotionally, I think I'm with you in continuing to take PS' reaction at face value, to find the idea of a relationship premature. And yet dramatically, I think significant evidence emerged last night to challenge that theory, and the possibilities raised by a secret relationship are very, very tempting to think about. I don't know what to think, and I'm sort of testing things out, trying to make the dramatic suggestions seem emotionally plausible.
I have a feeling the more time j_h spends with ps the more messed up he may realize ps is
Yes, but this cuts both ways -- because whatever Harry has learned about Draco, it has induced him act in a very uncharacteristic way, cutting Ron out of the loop, perhaps actively misleading him about his late-night absences. (And this is the first time we have learned, for certain, that Harry is wandering off at night, though we might well have guessed it.)
This is happening at a time when Harry and Ron have both just been reconciled after their own fight, when they would be expected to take unusual steps to reassure one another about their friendship, so that's suggestive. I take Ron's behavior last night, appalling as it was, as evidence that he genuinely feels desperately isolated -- Seamus even points out that he's been "ignoring" Harry, which clashes oddly with his stalking of PS. For all Ron's tendency to do foolish things, he doesn't seem a fool emotionally. He knows Harry better than anyone and clearly senses something off, something happening in a big way with Harry that he is cut off from.
I think Draco is probably freaking out now knowing that perhaps Harry does have reason to say something like this . . . Perhaps he gave Potter an opening to think this way.
Well, but he </i>has</i>. He knows Harry's gay. He knows, from Veritaserum night, that Harry continues to have feelings for him, and made a point of exchanging comments with Harry that acknowledged that he heard him. He's sneaking out for late night meetings with him, sometimes apparently lasting all night, in spite of the risk of his father's disapproval. That doesn't feel, to me, like someone who simply want to pretend that Harry's feelings don't exist. All of that feels a little like someone who is obsessively, almost irresistably being drawn to a confrontation with his own sexuality, even if he has great difficulty acknowledging that fact overtly.
If Draco is simply homophobic, what to make of the Seamus episode, the fashion discussion and the paper dolls? I know the stereotypes are silly, but they are there, and if Draco were merely being self-protective he would have avoided the situation. Instead it almost feels like he is playing with fire, almost schizophrenically throwing out hints that he would, of course, wildly deny if he were called on them.
[continued]
| sistermagpie @ May 27 2003, 20:54:23 UTC |
You really hit something on the head for me here with the phrase "playing with fire." That's exactly what I feel like Draco is doing on some level and he and Harry both know it, which is why they are both so jumpy about all of this.
I think part of the problem with ps is what we talked about once before with both of them--that they're sort of frozen in an earlier stage of development, neither of them having secure relationships with family to ground them as they move into other relationships. Harry's still terrified he's going to lose everything again and ps is worried he's going to be rejected and banished. So they're both kind of jumping through hoops.
I feel like right now they're still in very early stages of intimacy which for ps seems to include a lot of truly childlike activity. But that in itself seems like the way ps would sneak up on sexuality anyway. He seems like he is a genuinely physical person but has been raised in an environment where that was sort of squelched by proper ettiquette. When Narcissa threw her arms around him at Dogear I think he was genuinely surprised and unsure of how to respond, though he wanted to, I think. On the other hand, I think he loved sleeping with M.B. and Pansy.
So I think he is aware, because even ps couldn't be unaware, of the implications of continuing a friendship with Harry. He knows Harry is attracted to him and is gay, he's even started a possible friendship with Seamus who is gay and in a relationship and obviously knows about Harry's crush on him. He also probably knows on some level that he's wanted a relationship with Harry of some kind for years and couldn't truly reject him if he tried. The fight he and Harry had about his being "unreliable" seems to indicate that they do actually have conversations about their relationship and what they want from each other personally. It's no longer just about liking to knock people over with gulf clubs.
That does indicate a lot of possible emotional intimacy if not physical intimacy yet. Harry would never tell Seamus anything private that ps told him but I suspect Seamus has gotten a sense of things from Harry and, more importantly, he's probably picked up some stuff from Draco in their conversations. Seamus has hinted at Draco's being gay for a while now and I'll bet Harry came up more than once while they were making paper dolls. The very fact that Draco always backs off at exactly the right part of the conversation with Seamus makes it clear he does know what's going on. I think Seamus sees, as you do (and I agree), that Draco is irresistably drawn (I love how you put it!) toward a confrontation of his sexuality. So it makes sense that Seamus would react exactly like Harry, knowing that Draco has to be the one to say it for it to mean anything.
I think any little steps like that could lead to Draco's overreaction about Ron, to Draco's feeling lost and not wanting to speak to Harry. Harry backed off immediately there. He also went on the offensive against Ron, demanding his posts be deleted. If Harry and Draco were actually in some kind of relationship at this point I think Harry would demand Draco be stronger. I don't mean he'd demand Draco fess up on the lj, but I don't think j_h would be quite so genuinely distressed and apologetic. I can see Harry agreeing to keep their relationship secret but I can't see him agreeing to play the lying gay boy who makes up sex stories about Draco. Harry's protestations that he hadn't told Ron Draco was anything to him, especially not his boyfriend, and that Draco was going out with Pansy seemed, to me, completely honest. I don't think Harry yet feels like he has any claim on Draco in that area at all and so felt like Draco had genuine reason to be angry. If they had started something I think there would have been just a slightly different reaction/interaction between ps and j_h about it. JMO. Not sure if that quite made sense...
| black_dog @ May 28 2003, 08:26:01 UTC |
A joy, as always, to discuss this with you! I love the empathy and insight of your reading of Draco, and I think much of it is convincing. In good debater's fashion, I will poke and probe at some of our residual differences. :)
I feel like right now they're still in very early stages of intimacy which for ps seems to include a lot of truly childlike activity. . .
That does indicate a lot of possible emotional intimacy if not physical intimacy yet.
While I think you've convinced me it's too early for anything sexual, I guess I continue to think that something overt must have happened to generate the kind of tension we're seeing. At the risk of multiplying categories, I would fit a new middle term in between "emotional" and "physical." I'm imagining some ambiguous act that can take on different meanings depending on how paranoid Draco is feeling. Perhaps as simple as a touch or hair-stroke that went on too long, or falling asleep touching (they must have slept some time) or liking any of the above. So maybe it's not "Do we actually have a relationship," so much as "X happened -- what the hell does that mean?"
I love your image of PS approaching sexuality through playfulness, and through a sort of unselfconscious physicality such as he probably felt when sleeping with Pansy and Millicent. This reminds me a little bit (although I know people are touchy about comparisons) of some old discussion about the significance of touching in stories like UL and DV. I can imagine a situation where Draco needs to touch Harry and also needs to repress any erotic implications of the touch.
Without some overt act, though, I just feel it would be much easier for Draco to deny and ridicule Ron's suggestions, without being quite so frantic about it. He wouldn't run, quite so urgently, to his mother for reassurance (remember Narcissa's post addresses Ron, not Draco) or lose perspective enough to require an intervention from Millicent. Without some overt act, we're ascribing Draco's reactions to simple homophobia or free-floating sexual anxiety, which doesn't seem enough, for all the reasons previously cited.
If Harry and Draco were actually in some kind of relationship at this point I think Harry would demand Draco be stronger.
Yes, I do see what you mean here, and I agree with you, if the relationship were an accomplished fact. But the idea of an intermediate stage might apply here as well. As you so perfectly put it later -- Draco has to be the one to say it for it to mean anything. And if they have taken a very tentative and ambiguous step together, Harry may be sensitive precisely to how important it is to let Draco define what it means, and may be fully aware that if Draco runs away from the implications, he (Harry) just has to accept that.
I also suspect that Harry, bold Gryffindor that he is, is already challenging Draco as much as he dares, and is sensitive about the limits of what is possible. Remember the first conversation after the Astronomy assignment, where Harry virtually bullies Draco into coming to Dogear, systematically demolishing his excuses and alternatives. That's not the action of a shrinking violet. Harry after all, is no disinterested party here, he's taking risks and learning the game because of his own needs.
[continued]
| sistermagpie @ May 29 2003, 18:13:54 UTC |
I'm imagining some ambiguous act that can take on different meanings depending on how paranoid Draco is feeling.
Ah--now this I definitely agree with. In fact, I suspect all their time together is probably just FILLED with these. Draco does a good job of appearing stupid but at least part of it is an act, imo. He knows Harry is gay and that Harry is interested in him. Before Harry was interested in him he hated Draco. So Draco must know that any special time spent with Harry is giving him kind of a green light. Plus they're going out at night when the rest of the class is asleep--that's immediately intimate. PS might test the boundaries a lot, leaving it up to Harry to make sure he doesn't do anything wrong. He may yet still be in denial about liking Harry but he should at least admit that he likes Harry liking him! Harry's never said a word about what Draco looks like but Draco has given detailed thoughts on what Harry would look good in.
We should probably also consider that Draco is nervous about how his relationship appears to Lucius. I couldn't help but notice that Narcissa's taking an interest in Harry had just recently showed up on Lucius' radar, and there was that business about Draco sending him the e-mail and Lucius saying Draco had chosen Harry over his family. Interestingly, Draco didn't run to Lucius with his anger. He didn't reply to Lucius' post about it at all. He went to Narcissa who is Harry's friend. You could kind of tell in their exchanges that they were talking about someone of whom they were both fond, imo. Narcissa talked him down pretty quickly.
I think there's definitely something more than free-floating sexual anxiety at this point after all Draco's already gone through regarding Harry. He can't really claim to not know why Ron would think he and Harry were dating. It's easiest for him to blame it all on Harry but I think he must know he's the one who's really given the signals that they're dating. (As Seamus said, when people start attacking little bits of truth come out...)
I think you're right that Harry's pushing things as well--though that's probably part of why he freaked so much at what Ron did. Harry must know now just how far he can push things and what Ron did was too damn far!
I thought Harry's denials were mostly all for Malfoy. The first one is for Ron: I don't have a boyfriend. But the rest all to me sounded like attempts to reassure Draco of his own pure intentions. He didn't want a boyfriend=I'm not hanging out with you because I want you to become my boyfriend. The thing about Pansy tells Draco he's willing to accept his (Draco's) version of things and play by his rules. If Draco needs to pretend to be Pansy's boyfriend right now then Harry won't challenge that. That his boyfriend wouldn't be Malfoy both reassures Malfoy that Harry believes he's straight and probably let's Harry vent a little despair.
I wonder if whatever Remus and Sirius are getting and a death in Draco's family will effect things. I expect Harry would want to offer Narcissa some sympathy on the loss of her mother especially.
| black_dog @ May 28 2003, 08:27:08 UTC |
[continued]
I re-read Harry's "serial denials" and I don't know if he's being completely honest and direct, I sense some real pain and some desperate fudging here. "I don't have a boyfriend," -- that's true enough. "I don't want a boyfriend," -- I think that's false. He does want Draco. He's said so, under Veritaserum. Perhaps it's almost true in the sense that he doesn't want something that sounds so ordinary, doesn't simply want a social accoutrement, he thinks of it as something much larger and more meaningful. "Draco is Pansy's boyfriend" -- I can't help thinking, even Harry must know better. "It wouldn't be Malfoy, anyway." Some ink has been spilt arguing this doesn't technically mean "I don't want Malfoy," but I think the intention is to suggest precisely that -- to almost desperately reassure Malfoy about Harry's intentions.
Harry's lying. Why not? He's fallible, he's never managed an emotional task like this before, and he's cornered and panicking. He means well. He's frantically doing what he can to repair the damage Ron has done. I really do see him wrecked by this, at least until he can come up with a new strategy.
OK, I'll end with my traditional disclaimer -- I'm trying on ideas, here, and seeing if they fit. I confess that I am, myself, "obsessively, irresistably drawn" to the hypothesis that H and D have done something concrete that is freaking them both out. I await, with pleasure, having you knock my legs out from under me.
| notapipe @ May 28 2003, 16:32:06 UTC |
The fight he and Harry had about his being "unreliable" seems to indicate that they do actually have conversations about their relationship and what they want from each other personally. It's no longer just about liking to knock people over with gulf clubs.
Or it could have been a flippant comment Harry made when Draco failed in an attempt to knock someone over with a gulf club.
Harry's protestations... that Draco was going out with Pansy seemed, to me, completely honest.
So I guess Harry really DOES need new glasses.
| sistermagpie @ May 28 2003, 18:00:19 UTC |
Or it could have been a flippant comment Harry made when Draco failed in an attempt to knock someone over with a gulf club.
Damn you and your truth, notapipe!
So I guess Harry really DOES need new glasses.
Kay, here I need to clarify. It's honest meaning that Harry is saying that as far as he's pretending he knows Draco is dating Pansy. It's fake but Harry's never challenged it so therefore his protestations are completely honest to Ron. :-)
| black_dog @ May 27 2003, 14:19:09 UTC |
[continued]
Is it possible that someone who is "dropping hints" with Seamus would not have sent similar signals during his very unusual and suggestive private time to Harry? I don't mean he made a pass at him, or vice versa, just that I can imagine him daring himself to make ambiguous remarks, daring Harry to notice and react to them. They could well have come to a tacit understanding of some sort. I don't know if they did anything sexual -- maybe they just found a way to acknowledge Draco's anxieties. Maybe they actually explored some stuff under conditions of strict secrecy and deniability. But something intimate -- whether emotional or physical -- seems more and more probable to me.
PS is acting like someone who is terribly afraid of some revelation. He shows enormous anxiety about Ron's hints yesterday afternoon, hints he pretends later, in the Seamus thread, not to have understood at the time. Why, then, does he react by screaming at Ron in 20-point font? His other focus of irrational anxiety is Harry's decision to buy clothes. If he's doing something in secret with Harry, is the clothing too "overt" an acknowledgment on Harry's part?
And finally, I continue to feel that there is an unusual emotional intensity in Draco's reactions on last night's Seamus and Narcissa threads -- some real despair, not just anger or embarassment. He seems hurt and a little lost. To Harry -- "I don't want to talk to you." To Narcissa -- "Forward my things to Azkaban."
Not proof, certainly. But it's shaken my own confidence in my earlier read on JH/PS. And I'm just tossing it out there for your own consideration.
| takeonelook @ May 27 2003, 14:58:59 UTC |
I'm sure most people noticed this, but I wanted to point out that most of the clothes Harry bought were blue/dark blue. That's the color that PS suggested for Harry. So yes, that does make the clothing an 'overt' acknowledgement as you said.
About PS's earlier posts with Ron, it feels as though Draco's anxiety goes a little overboard. One comment that really struck me, was Draco's 'Weasley. What are you doing?' to Ron's comment about Harry and the pennant. It seemed to me that he definately had a secret and that he was warning Ron to keep his mouth shut. Is he simply that scared of someone finding out Harry and he are friends and have been hanging out at night? I know that Draco has hated Harry for years and it has got to be strange to suddenly enjoy being friends with him, but the anxiety went over the top if that's the case. It immediately made me suspicious. However I'm trying to be logical about this. So maybe PS was scared of people finding out about his newfound friendship because since Harry is gay they might make assumptions about him? Which is a justifiable reason since that's what ended up happening.
But like you said BD, I'm a little torn in my reactions and thoughts on the matter.
| bluekivrin @ May 27 2003, 15:32:12 UTC Re: |
Blast. I made the mistake of starting to reply, then saving the doc to "drafts" thinking that, of course!, it would save what I had written in the little reply box. Bah.
He seems to find sexuality in general very threatening and I think he genuinely would be very hurt if he thought Harry was just stringing him along and waiting his chance to jump him.
Nicely put, and exactly. ps is all in a muddle because here he thought he was having a general good time with someone, as a friend. And now he finds out that "everyone" takes that interaction to be evidence of not only a relationship on his part, but being gay. No one, least of all Draco, would be comfortable being "told" that he IS gay. That's why the things like "coming out" are so...sacred. It's his right to decide if and when to embrace something that may or may not be there. It's his time to explore that side of sexuality, but as the only man around is Harry, even exploration would up the weirdness factor for Draco.
This is all, of course, assuming Draco is gay. I've read several good posts on the matter, and it's all gotten my opions mixed every which way. Yes, this is a H/D RPG, so we're all waiting for it to come, for him to step out. I guess we can't really escape that assumption, even though it's an unfair one to put on anyone. I dislike saying "oh, he's just repressed his homosexuality; LOOK, there is evidence of it there!" when no one should do that to anyone in RL. But...this is RPG, and even more, an RPG on a book series. So, the assumption follows us. I guess there's not much we can do about it.
And yes, about Seamus, because Seamus is just that good
| notapipe @ May 28 2003, 00:39:49 UTC |
The time stamps matter in this case, flow wise, because he responds to Millicent before he responds to Narcissa. There is a flow interruption.
(parent)| bluekivrin @ May 28 2003, 00:50:29 UTC Re: |
Yes, that is true. But is that not more order of comments and less time in between comments?
But I do recognize the point (what I think is someone's point) that because he replied to MB first, the gap was caused by his meeting with her, and the subsequent talking to he likely received. Flow interruption.
Even so, I still am wary of time stamps, or of the pauses that lead to time stamp issues. Plot-wise, this could fit more than some other gaps in time, but I still don't like to read too much into them. But that's me, because I can't ever seem to escape the idea that this is all just a RPG, and so the reality of it kind of sits in the back of my head.
| notapipe @ May 28 2003, 01:24:17 UTC |
That was (though probably not exclusively) my point, so you can understand why I defend it so much.
As for reading too much into it, I think that we might not come to an agreement here, even though I have grown wary of timestamps (thanks to an earlier convo with black_dog and a player). I beleive that each time a new comment is added the actual world of N_A changes (for me). I imagine that there are no players for analysis (militant post-modernism booyah), and run with the world as is (though my nraged analysis is slightly more forgiving of the RPG aspect, since it is for public consumption by people who don't share my extremist viewpoint). This often leads me to false conclusions and constantly changing worlds. But that's fun too. And then again, even sistermagpie and black_dog get stuff wrong, so eh...
| bluekivrin @ May 28 2003, 23:33:43 UTC Re: |
Well then, your point. And I see it and can agree with it, so.
Hee, the joys of NA and RPG. I can understand how you can take it just as it is, because I can almost get caught up in it that much, too. But I'm too cynical, or something, to forget completely what I'm dealing with, which puts a cynical taint to any analysis. And false conclusions...you're not alone, hardly. I have a nasty habit of becoming completely obsessed with an idea, only to find it utterly irreverent to anything as I go along.
| notapipe @ May 28 2003, 23:37:56 UTC |
Well, it's a concious choice not to care what I'm dealing with. It's not that I forget.
Also, nEVILle is irrelevant only on account of villany.
| bluekivrin @ May 28 2003, 23:47:44 UTC My. |
Granted. You may deal with RPG however you wish. Personal right and so on. No inference of forgetfulness implied, merely my own situation. And I'm glad you have that ability to dictate your mind so readily.
OH! I had forgotten your (your? your.) nEVILle. I was in no way referring to any of your ideas when I said that, though.
Speaking of, where do you think he's been?
| notapipe @ May 29 2003, 00:14:15 UTC Re: My. |
I didn't think you were. I'm just bitter.
Plotting. Definetly plotting. Or, if you want to be "realistic", he's trying to remove the memory block, probably spending lots of time in the library, and petting his frogs and saying "they will all pay. yes, my precious, they will."
| bluekivrin @ May 29 2003, 01:12:16 UTC 'tis late |
Your snarkyness is/was impressive. *bows*
As for nEVILle: Oo. Aah. I'm impressed. Just the nEVILle thing to do, too; sit in a dark room with walls that just barely whisper, surrounded by inferiours that cannot see his brilliance, plotting his revenge. (Wait, why does he want vengence, or is that irrevelent at this point?) He'll need hair gel and some cloth for a cape, but with all those books I'm sure he'll find a suitable pattern, and Hermione can sew, right? Ach, he'll manage. After all, he's nEVILle. Fear him.
As for Neville, you're likely correct. Everyone's off studying now. Or researching memory blocks. Mer.
Gollum!Neville cracks me up.
| metaphoracle @ May 26 2003, 20:14:32 UTC |
Perhaps this has been brought up elsewhere, or I'm reading too much into it--
Harry's "I wouldn't want Draco as my boyfriend anyway" comment.
Saving face, or something else?
|
hobaggins @ May 26 2003, 20:22:18 UTC |
He doesn't say he wouldn't want Draco as a boyfriend, he says:
Stop saying he's my boyfriend because he's not. He's dating Pansy, remember? I don't have a boyfriend. I don't want a boyfriend. If I had one, it wouldn't be Malfoy anyway, okay?
He just says it wouldn't be Malfoy. *soothes OTP*
(Just_Harry/Potterstinks 4 eva eva)
| notapipe @ May 26 2003, 20:28:29 UTC |
Besides, he's already included the bald faced lie about Pansy anyway...
(parent)| tabiji @ May 26 2003, 20:23:46 UTC |
Harry: Stop saying he's my boyfriend because he's not. He's dating Pansy, remember? I don't have a boyfriend. I don't want a boyfriend. If I had one, it wouldn't be Malfoy anyway, okay?
Oh, noooo I read that differently...I saw it as Harry saying "He's with Pansy, if I had a boyfriend it wouldn't/couldn't be Draco, because he's not gay."
| takeonelook @ May 26 2003, 20:24:31 UTC |
He doesn't exactly say that he doesn't want Draco as his boyfriend. He says, "If I had one, it wouldn't be Malfoy anyway." I took that to mean that Harry is very aware that he has no chance with Draco, and that he knows that Draco does not like him in any romantic way.
(parent)| sistermagpie @ May 26 2003, 20:25:04 UTC |
He didn't say that exactly. First Harry said Malfoy was dating Pansy. Then he said 1. He didn't have a boyfriend. 2. He didn't want a boyfriend. and 3. If he had a boyfriend it wouldn't be Malfoy.
All of this, I think, is more about letting Malfoy know that he had no designs on him. He says he's not going out with Malfoy and then says he doesn't want a boyfriend to let Malfoy know that he's not on a manhunt and also let Ron know that he should stop trying to matchmake for him. He doesn't want anyone!
The last line doesn't say he doesn't want Draco as a boyfriend, it just says that it's not going to happen which is a little sadder but doesn't deny that he liked Draco. When Ron brings up his liking Draco Harry doesn't respond. I think that whole post is Harry's way of backing up Draco's public front: Draco is dating Pansy and would never be Harry's boyfriend.
| tabiji @ May 26 2003, 21:18:00 UTC |
Too well I would say. Is it me, or does this post lack the level of malice and well, the threatening LUCIUSNESS that it ought to have? His mood is just "annoyed", but it comes off to me as almost sounding amused.
(parent) |
ex_meiko437 @ May 26 2003, 21:59:59 UTC a theory |
I personally so not think that there is a Thing between Draco and Harry. It's too early in the game, and their relationship really hasn't progressed enough. Draco is still somewhat homophobic. People don't change that quickly-- not with something as major as homophobia.
What my take on this is that Draco genuinely enjoys spending time with Harry. They possibly meet in the middle of the night to avoid openly having the school gossip about a budding friendship between the two.
Draco thinks that Harry told Ron this fantasy of his-- the Draco is his boyfriend and that they're Together Forever with little hearts drawn around it and all. "Because Potter told him" is not a confession of a Thing but of complete and utter disdain that Potter would make up something as horrifying as that. Draco is homophobic but enjoys his company- conflicting emotions resulting in midnight talks or something.. whatever they do. Draco doesn't KNOW how homosexuals act and he KNOWS that Harry has or had (in his view.. we know it as has) a crush on him.. making him somewhat weary of Harry to begin with, and making him THINK that it was Potter who told Weasely of a fantasy Harry has, which breaks the already fragile views Draco holds of Harry. It feeds into his phobia of homosexuals. Why would Weasely come to this conclusion on his own? of COURSE it was potter who fed him this nonsense, as they ARE best friends. ^~ afterall, Draco does not give Ron much credit when it comes to having greymatter.
In short: there may not be a romantic relationship, but insted, Draco is offended that Harry--whom he does consider a friend-- "betrayed" him in this way. He hates the fact that Potter would fantasize about him and gush to Ron about it. He believes the worst-- that it was Harry-- because he still does not have full faith and trust in him after the outing.
just my take on this. Comments, please.. agree, disagree?
| bluekivrin @ May 26 2003, 23:28:44 UTC Re: a theory |
Whee, I just said some of that above you. And I agree, yes. It's WAY too soon for a j_h/ps, as great as it might be. We have to look at Draco as a homophobic, structurally-raised kid, reacting to a world where his enemy likes him, where his enemy's best friend considers him gay and in a relationship with said enemy, and where he's surrounded by several poignant gay relationships. He thought he was making "friends" with his enemy, but now he's going to be worried that everything he does will be taken as a sign of more-than-friendship. He's freaked, but has no room to show emotion other than strength and anger. He's learned that he can't show any, erm, discomfort with homosexuals without being stoned, so everything inside of him comes across as anger AT everything, anger in general. He can't be "fine" or "scared" or "uncomfortable", he can only be "enraged."
Considering all of this, I think his reaction tonight was, well, normal.
|
Anonymous @ May 27 2003, 02:22:06 UTC Re: a theory |
Yes, I agree. I think Draco conveniently forgot that Harry was gay and that he fancies Draco. Or rather, chose not to think about it. He has been enjoying having Harry as a friend and is probably still trying to wrap his head around the fact that he enjoys hanging around with Harry, not even thinking about the fancying issue. And if he's not thinking about the fancying issue, then there's no need for a homophobic reactions. Though I noticed that tonight while Draco was outraged at being called Harry's boyfriend, and by association gay, he didn't actually express any real homophobic sentiments. So perhaps he's not as homophobic as before. I mean, he did find out that his father has slept with Sirius. But, of course there better not be any implications that he himself is a homosexual. Which brings me to my next question.
Are we all just assuming that Draco is really gay?
I know sometimes homophobia is a sign of repressed homosexuality, but other than that and the obvious fashion stereotypes, are there any real clues as to Draco being gay? Or do we just assume since this is supposed to be a H/D rpg? I know personally I tend to jump to conclusions and squee uncontrollably, but what can I do? I'm a H/Der to the core. So yeah, I just wondered.
I feel really bad for j_h though. Reading the thread my heart just dropped. In fact, it's still somewhere near my stomach. I just want something good to happen to him for once. He's always the one getting embarassed and rejected when, lord knows, he's the one who could use the most love and reassurance. I just want to see Harry happy for once.
| sistermagpie @ May 27 2003, 07:55:16 UTC Re: a theory |
This is how I see it too--I'm glad the players aren't having Draco's homophobia "cured" in a few weeks of friendly talk with Harry. That type of thing has so many levels to it.
I don't think we should ignore that Ron did more damage than just assuming Draco and Harry were going out because Harry likes Draco and they've spent time together and why wouldn't Draco like him back. Ron called into question all of ps's feelings towards Harry--he pointed to his having Harry's name in his username, his having fun with him during the astronomy project--as being some kind of proof of boyfriend behavior. That's got to make ps more confused than ever.
As to whether ps is gay I do think there's hints that this is true that have nothing to do with Harry. M.B. in particular seems to joke about it all the time. His dates with women were almost comical in how uninterested in them he was. Pansy, we know, has not been keeping company with him at night and prefers to sleep with M.B. Yeah, there's got to be something weird going on there--only people like Seamus are smart enough to be coy about it (referring to everyone's love life and "whatever Malfoy has).
I definitely think you're right to point out that ps avoided some real homophobic comments. Note that when Narcissa asked why Harry would say such a thing he didn't give as a reason anything having to do with Harry being gay (and so incapable of a regular friendship or untrustworthy or obsessed with sex). Perhaps he refrained from that because he knows this will make Lucius angry but I don't know...I think the fact that he can make jokes about Seamus' "baby this and baby that" moments indicates a little progress in his attitude.
Also, I just don't think we can ignore Narcissa and Lucius' referring to Ron's comments as "slander." They've gotten a reputation for being very open-minded on the gay issue because they delivered smackdown on the outing thread (and Lucius obviously is bisexual and Narcissa likes Remus and Sirius) but the fact is they do consider it slander to suggest Draco is Harry's boyfriend.