babytyggeryss @ July 19 2003, 06:00:26 UTC

It's nice to see Neville get things sorted out with his Gran. I'm also happy to see that whatever Neville besides to do, his Gran will support him; even if she did sic Great-Uncle Algie on him.

vellum @ July 19 2003, 09:24:57 UTC <3 neville

is Great Uncle Algie the guy who tossed him off the pier?

yes.

notapipe @ July 19 2003, 11:46:01 UTC

Before I begin: Nice icon.

So there's ostensibly been a reconciliation, but I wouldn't write off the conflict and tension this introduces between Neville and his mother, and the wizarding world in general.

His grandmother apologizes for being protective of Neville, but it's not Sara she focuses on, both in the intial row and now, but Muggles. 'Muggle money,' for instance. The prejudices are there, and even when she apologizes, it's uncomfterably. She isn't afraid of losing Neville to Voldemort, but to Muggledom. But I think she's resigned herself to the fact that she can't change Neville, because Neville NEVER says no, and that's got to signal something big in giant flare letters. So, for a number of reasons including because she doesn't want to completely lose Neville over this and because I think she really hates to be at serious odds with Neville, she's made a strategic retreat that she isn't completely comfterable with. As much as she'll try to reconcile her accepting with her base prejudices, those anti-Muggle prejudices are going to continue and cause friction to some extent between Neville and his gran. This isn't over.

blankcanvas @ July 19 2003, 23:16:34 UTC

Your icon is making me insane. What does it all mean?

Also: Good analysis of the current Neville situation. I never would have thought of it that way, but now that you've pointed things out it seems obvious.

black_dog @ July 20 2003, 01:27:26 UTC

I think what's so well done about this is that they're both right, Neville and his Gran. Neville is acting just the way he should be, with complete unselfconsciousness, just enjoying his romantic adventure and whatever new experiences and change it brings to him. Who would want it any other way? And yet his Gran is also right that this isn't just a summer fling -- if he falls in love with Sara, what happens next? Will they live as Muggles or as Wizards? Given Neville's relatively weak magical powers, will they drift away from the magical community if their offspring are non-magical? Is that a tragic outcome for a prominent Wizarding family, who have a record of tremendous sacrifice in the fight against Voldemort?

I question the simple application of the word "prejudice" to what Neville's Gran is feeling. The Longbottoms have proven they're on the good guys' side when it comes to a fight against Voldemort's overt racism. The question here is whether political correctness prevents one from noticing or weighing the social consequences, the real-life consequences, of "marrying out" -- an issue faced by many real ethnic groups with highly distinctive cultures. It would have a tremendous impact on Neville's life, and on the family's long-term fortunes. That's not to say it's a bad thing, or should trump real love, but it's an issue, and Neville himself admits he "hadn't even thought about it."

OK, I'm partly being a devil's advocate in taking Gran's side here. But I don't think a fully humane reading should ignore her concerns, or demonize them as racist. It's part of the seriousness and well-roundedness of the characters in the game that an issue like this should come up, and should have to be dealt with.

aurorasinger @ July 21 2003, 08:36:44 UTC

Well, last night I saw the movie "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" again, and I think the ideas in there kind of apply here as well. It's the same thing. If you've seen it, it's about a white girl and a black boy who want to get married. (This is the mid-20th century.) The girl's father has always taken a prominent anti-racism stand (he's rich and possibly a govt official, I only saw about half of it last night and I don't really remember from the last time I saw it), but he is against his white daughter marrying a black boy. There is more to this than simply hypocrisy--there is also that he doesn't want them to have a hard time, which they undoubtedly will if they get married. This is true for Neville and Sara as well. This whole Muggle-wizard marriage thing doesn't always go down well, and they will have a hard time with it. Maybe gran isn't just being prejudiced, but she is also looking out for the good of Neville and Sara.

black_dog @ July 21 2003, 12:36:11 UTC Re:

Interesting! I'm going to make a further distinction, though, just for the sake of argument --
I wonder if the racial example isn't the best, because in principle you want to live in a society that gets past racism, so arguably the "problems" a black and white couple would face shouldn't be a legitimate argument against the match, because they shouldn't be "problems" for fair-minded people. I was thinking more of someone marrying out of, say, an Orthodox Jewish family, where the cultural affiliation is a matter of choice and principle, and there's no real social argument for deliberately abolishing that barrier just for the sake of abolishing it. It's interesting to think about which model wizarding separatism is closer too -- is it a "difference that makes no difference," that is purely a matter of prejudice, or is it a culture whose distinctiveness is worth preserving, at least at the level of mild incentives?

aurorasinger @ July 21 2003, 12:42:24 UTC Re:

*thoughtful* interesting. you definitely have a strong point.