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blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 01:22:17 UTC

thanks for sloughing through it. a part of me just wants to cut out everything but the last paragraph. I tend to be long-winded late at night o_o;;

tabiji @ August 11 2003, 02:47:10 UTC

Erk. The last paragraph? Where you say...

"Right now, I know Sirius is completely at fault for what's happening, but I can't help but feel a little sorry for him, too. He needs counselling. Doesn't the wizarding community have counsellors? Bah."

I dunno, I think that's pretty heavy-handed. We've had confirmation that these are long-standing issues, and there seems to be a lot more of the story that we don't know yet. There are two sides to every story, and even though what we have seen has put Sirius in a bad light, there's probably a lot more here than meets the eye. Putting total blame on Sirius is probably a bit hasty.

Counseling is probably a very GOOD idea though, but not just for Sirius, for both of them together.

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 07:56:01 UTC

actually, that wasn't the paragraph I meant ^_~ Go me and answering comments early in the morning!

The essential point is that I believe the solo mission triggered a lot of introverted qualities in him, qualities pertaining to the fact that he believes himself unfit to handle happiness, and only able to hurt those he cares about. He may very well be "at ease" in situations in which others are criticising him for his actions, and he's losing everything he values. In a way, I think he believes failure (to follow in his family's footsteps, to protect his friends, to be a good godfather, to be a good husband) is the only lifestyle he can ever maintain.

That's what I meant. As for my statement that Sirius is at fault, I still stick to that. After talking to Lucius with complete disregard for the June-situation, and for Remus's outrage, he then went on to criticize Remus for smoking (and due to Neville's later post, we see that he may have had a lack of trust, too). As such, I find his actions at the party to be rather hypocritical, actually, and I stand beside Remus in his pain and dismay. For Sirius to be so entirely oblivious of his own hypocrisy, and of his responsibilities, puts him at fault here.

Of course, as the rest of my post states, while he may be at fault, it seems to me that his conditioning at Azkaban has, in the past (see my reply to blackdog) and at present, undermined his ability to find stability in whatever happiness he is granted. So I don't REALLY blame him for his oblivion; I merely stated that he was totally at fault so that no one would be under the impression that I am in any way criticizing Remus for how he's handled this recent s

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 07:59:44 UTC (almost made the lj cut ^^)

So I don't REALLY blame him for his oblivion; I merely stated that he was totally at fault so that no one would be under the impression that I am in any way criticizing Remus for how he's handled this recent situation.

Anonymous @ August 11 2003, 20:18:31 UTC Re: (almost made the lj cut ^^)

I merely stated that he was totally at fault.

Unless you can provide evidence that has been confirmed by the players, your opinions cannot be expressed as anything other than your opinion.

blue_lightning @ August 12 2003, 07:13:16 UTC Re: (almost made the lj cut ^^)

I thought it was given that this is my opinion anyway.
???

dragynville @ August 11 2003, 01:11:15 UTC

Yes yes, that's summat of what I was getting at when I was talking about self-fulfilling prophecy syndrome and self-destructive behaviors, etc. Nice extrapolation of fact and theory, well done!

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 01:20:52 UTC

Oh! Yes! I vaguely remember you talking about the self-fulfilling prophecy bit but I gave up trying to track it down through. *shakes head* nraged threads are like haystacks at times.

bookofjude @ August 11 2003, 01:14:17 UTC

Just a few thoughts. We really can't confuse OotP canon with NA canon. If I remember correctly, the NA mods have already pointed out that with OotP's release, NA is now an alternate universe RPG, and that they're only taking various things from OotP canon. Therefore, Sirius' homelife was a lot different.

If I remember correctly, his mother was nice, and his father died when he was young, which puts quite a few holes in some of your theories, but I do agree with others.

Quite interesting, really...

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 01:18:53 UTC

actually, based on that conclusion, it only knocks out the thing I said about unconditional love, and means I lose one example from my last sentence, about living up to a lifestyle of failure. though you say it puts in "quite a few holes" his home life doesn't dent the theory itself, which hinges on being used to betraying people and being alone.

however, thank you for offering a counterpoint. I never really associate their PASTS as being a part of OotP, which is probably why it slipped my mind.

black_dog @ August 11 2003, 03:44:59 UTC

SUBCONSCIOUSLY, he knew he deserved to be alone, that that was what he was used to being.

[A]nalysis into the Harry-angle of the punishment-complex can go a lot further. . . . Harry's role as "equal" may have subconsciously represented, to Sirius, an opportunity to actually witness James (through Harry, who looks a lot like him) losing faith in him.

This is really, really interesting. In other threads I feel strange about some explanations of Sirius' behavior that seem to make too many excuses for him, but this one really catches the full horror of what he's doing to Harry.

So in other words, this may be a variant of the "fear of happiness" neurosis, where Sirius really loathes himself and wants to act out in ways that let him see that loathing mirrored in other people's eyes. But you suggest that it's even more specific than that. He's loathing himself because he feels that he really was a traitor to the Potters. So he obsessively acts out behavior that will make other people -- especially Harry -- see him as a betrayer.

I think that's a pretty cool reading, for what my .02 are worth. The only thing I disagree with you on is the timing -- I think this stuff goes back before the wedding, that Sirius and Lucius have flirted regularly at past parties and it's nothing new. Although the emotional impact of Sirius' loneliness on his mission, so soon after the shock of the attack and Harry's injury, may have helped undermine any resolve to do better that Sirius might have felt after his marriage. But I also think what's mainly changed is the political environment, which really transforms the significance of any connection to Lucius. The whole issue of Lucius has become much more charged now that Lucius' boss is on the attack again.

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 07:42:52 UTC

I think that's a pretty cool reading, for what my .02 are worth. The only thing I disagree with you on is the timing -- I think this stuff goes back before the wedding, that Sirius and Lucius have flirted regularly at past parties and it's nothing new. Although the emotional impact of Sirius' loneliness on his mission, so soon after the shock of the attack and Harry's injury, may have helped undermine any resolve to do better that Sirius might have felt after his marriage. But I also think what's mainly changed is the political environment, which really transforms the significance of any connection to Lucius. The whole issue of Lucius has become much more charged now that Lucius' boss is on the attack again.

Actually, it's because it's happened before that I feel any confidence whatsoever in this theory. In April Remus explained to everyone that Sirius was still recovering from Azkaban, and seemed to use that argument to support forgiving Sirius after the last encounter with Lucius. If not for the fact that Remus is now truly acting like Harry's protector, and is fully aware that Lucius has proven himself to desire Harry's demise (and thus, has to look out for more than his own wellbeing as a result of Sirius's actions), I would wonder why Remus has not again considered the line of reasoning he used in April as being a factor in present circumstances.

I feel that Sirius's condition - if my theory is in any way valid - is cyclical (perhaps similar to manic depression), and that its present down-swing occurred after his period of separation. It would have been the trigger which drove him to ignore all the information about Lucius that had emerged since the wedding, and to continue to converse

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 07:43:53 UTC (lj cut me off)

with Lucius even though somewhere he knows just how wrong that is. Right now he's so blinded by his risen-again inclination towards being "at ease" in an atmosphere negative emotions, and haunted by the thought of his failures, that he is too likely to just accept the accusations and criticism of others as being perfectly accurate. The result? Since he has fallen into circumstances wherein he can be blamed, he sees no reason to make an effort to try to fix things with Remus. He DESERVES for his present circumstances to become permanent, he thinks. After 12 years of bad vibes, he is "at home" with this atmosphere of condemnation.

qwyneth @ August 11 2003, 09:03:25 UTC Re: Depression

Interesting. Nice discussion of depression, subconscious self-defeat, and, essentially, low self-esteem. You do an interesting analysis of how Sirius personally took on the death of James and Lily, and how beginning twelve years of Azkaban with that unformed guilt and grief warped his mind and self-image. I think we discount Azkaban sometimes--the dementors make you relive the absolute worst moments of your life. If you go in there actually feeling guilty about something, even if you know you're innocent, then I'm sure it'll skew itself massively.

Again, nice explanation of his behaviour. I think the key here is how Sirius values himself, where he puts his self-worth--and I think that's very low, even if he acts superior and as though he has no problems (a very normal thing). The conglameration above could easily work itself into having Sirius truly believe that it's all his fault, that he always screws things up, and that he is not worthy or capable of what he desperately is wanting--perhaps a healthy family life. So, like someone else said, he acts against himself, subconsciously trying to screw things up so that his belief in himself can remain unthreatened. Self-fulfilling prophecy--if you think you'll screw up, you will because you lose your will to act against it.

One thing to be careful of--I don't think there's anything cyclical about Sirius' behaviour. Certainly his behaviour may follow a somewhat cyclical pattern, but I believe that's due to a buildup of the depressive, low feelings. For example, he gets a high out of the wedding, everything's wonderful, wonderful, Remus loves him, he's lucky to get Remus, he has a great life. But underneath it all, he feels that he's LUCKY and not equal to it, and he believes that he'll screw things up, that he's not good enough to deserve or keep this life. So slowly as the natural high of the wedding goes down, these awful thoughts build up and get stronger and eventually overpower the rest. (In this case, his mission may even have acted as a catalyst, as he was away from his wonderfulness and not getting extra boosts of support from Remus.) The important thing is though, that the feeligns are *always there* and how they act on him/manifest themselves is due to outside events. His internal depression is a constant--unlike how it would be for a cyclical depression like Seasonal Affective disorder, or for something totally different involving two internal states, like bipolar/manic-depressive disorder. I guarentee you that Sirius is NOT bipolar, that involves very extreme highs and lows. And no, the promiscuity is probably not a high--I see it as his way of simulataneously screwing himself up subconsciously and allowing himself to briefly enter a state where he can forget it all and *feel*. I wouldn't be surprised if Sirius felt empty inside, and random sex is good for filling that void, even for just a little while. An oasis in the desert, so to speak.

One last point. I hear what you say about Sirius being at fault, but I truly believe that this goes both ways. Sirius is screwing this up, but if Remus knew about this in the first place then they should not have married until Sirius sought help. Guilt in relationships is *always* tangled, and I don't think you can make statements so broad as to try to determine one person or the other to be at fault for the *entire* problem, only little bits.

With all that said, great thoughts! Sorry I went on so long, I'm a psych major and love this stuff.

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 09:15:43 UTC Re: Depression

In this case, his mission may even have acted as a catalyst, as he was away from his wonderfulness and not getting extra boosts of support from Remus.

That's precisely what I suggested. ^_^ In reading your thoughts, I feel inclined to agree with you in the belief that Sirius may have just felt "lucky" all along. I never suggested he was manic depressive; I was merely using the analogy to further my explanation of how trigger events may have caused him to shift from latent doubts about his worth to acting in a manner that would allow the creation of an environment of condemnation from others.

As for Remus's role... the unfortunate thing about loving someone is that one tends to believe they are the only caregiver a sick person needs. I think that's what happened here; I think Remus believed quite firmly that it would be enough for him to provide Sirius with the opportunity to be happy and stable. Remus is only human (let's ignore the monster jokes), and, like any human in love, believed he could change Sirius by himself. Hopefully, recent events will allow him to realize that outside help may be necessary.

Thanks for your comments on the matter!

sistermagpie @ August 11 2003, 10:05:56 UTC Re: Depression

This was really wonderful! The strangest thing about all of this was when everything started falling apart with Remus and Sirius among other feelings I actually felt relief. Not relief because I wanted them to break up or be unhappy, but I had begun to feel that the high from the marriage was just too high. I think I even remember the moment it slipped over for me--it was when Remus (I think) made a reference to Harry cheating in tickle fights. I just though, "Tickle fight? At 17?"

It's not that I don't think there's anything wrong with a father and son tickling each other, but it just seemed like too picture perfect a family scene. I felt like they wanted so much to give Harry the childhood with parents he didn't have, the family life they were denied etc. Euro Disney, playing with the puppy, silly tickle fights--this is stuff most teens would DIE before admitting to doing, but it was so new and wonderful to this family they revelled in it. Underneath, though, it was all so tenuous. Sirius was called away. Harry got sent back to the Dursleys. Black Dog mentioned the possibility that Harry had begun to feel like the past year wasn't "real," that none of this would ever be real. Harry started ticking off all the things they were going to do as if they could never do it. It was a marked contrast to the other families we hear about where the teenagers are having a more normal experience. Those kids are moving away from their parents, stretching their wings, casually accepting the love and protection they know they have at home and complaining when it drives them crazy.

So I can almost imagine Sirius having a perverse desire to destroy it like the cold hand of reality. It's even rather there in his language, saying to Remus,"This is who I am," after the party. I'm not explaining this well. But does it make any sense?

blue_lightning @ August 11 2003, 10:18:51 UTC Re: Depression

I think it does... (though I was a little startled when I read the subject title "Re: Depression" followed by "This is really wonderful!" lol).

For me, it started seeming a bit weird after all the repetitions of "WE BOTH LOVE YOU VERY VERY MUCH, HARRY." It really did seem like everyone was trying very hard to immerse themselves in family life - loving and being loved.

Remus taking Harry drinking in the park also seemed a little strange.

I think, however, that Sirius's "perverse desire," as you put it, is only meant to show everyone around him, especially those he loves (Harry and Remus) that he isn't trustworthy, that they shouldn't believe in him, and that he doesn't deserve their love. He's just trying to, as you said, show everyone what he means when he says "This is who I am." He's really caught in his self-defeating guilt complex, and it's really tragic. The whole situation is. Poor Harry.

black_dog @ August 11 2003, 21:06:56 UTC Re: Depression

[Hey, I've been deleting and tinkering with this post, so sorry for spamming your mailbox, because I just realize you get sent each version. *facepalms*]

I had begun to feel that the high from the marriage was just too high. . . . I think I even remember the moment it slipped over for me--it was when Remus (I think) made a reference to Harry cheating in tickle fights. I just though, "Tickle fight? At 17?"

this is stuff most teens would DIE before admitting to doing, but it was so new and wonderful to this family they revelled in it.

Love this point -- and it sends me off on a tangent, but tangents are fun.

I'm thinking of another contrast between Harry's family and Draco's. Maybe the salient thing about Harry's family is that they don't know how a proper family behaves, so they sort of have to make it up. Harry's never had proper parents, after all; Remus' childhood was warped by his werewolfism. NA!Sirius I think is supposed to have had a normal childhood but his access to it has probably been overwhelmed by his Azkaban experiences, etc.

So they have the benefit of spontaneity, and authentic love, but they're still sort of exploring what it all means and are liable to do silly things inappropriate for their roles -- the tickling, the smokes and drinks, the way Remus wavers between being a parent and an older brother (shades of OOTP!Sirius). As someone I think suggested (I can't remember where, maybe it wasn't even NrAged), they're sort of the messy, flaky family around the corner that you escaped to in your childhood when mom and dad became insufferable.

Contrast this with the Malfoys. I can imagine Lucius despising Harry's family precisely because they are emotional muddlers -- lacking his own systematic aristocratic training in the art of human relations. Lucius knows how to keep a troubled marriage going and find real consolation in it, he knows how to raise a son that respects him, he knows how to maintain appearances and prevent his flaws and mistakes from making him look ridiculous or compromising his control of his life. And perhaps Remus and Sirius and Harry have a little bit of fascination with this imposing edifice of a family that Lucius has built out of very unpromising human material. Perhaps they have a little of the man-in-the-street's fascination with, even envy for, the Malfoys' sheer worldliness and competence, despite its sinister elements.

It's ironic, of course, that the Malfoys' superior pragmatic knowledge of human relations has not actually refined them as personalities. It's just given greater scope and smoothness to their selfish, grasping, manipulative natures. In their hearts, they are as mediocre and ordinary as the next couple. Just with more money and polish. They could use a dose of Dogear, themselves.

The next generation, as usual, faces the job of trying to do better. So I see Harry and Draco poised between these two models of the family, trying to make sense of what works and what doesn't, trying, maybe, to envison a relationship that has the warmth and spontaneity of Dogear at its best, and the pragmatic wisdom, the restraint and stability, of the Manor at it's best. And maybe it's not just the next generation -- maybe Remus and Narcissa, re-inventing themselves at mid-life, are working through some of the same questions.

Hmmm. There's close reading and then there's . . . riffing, to put it generously. This counts as riffing. But maybe it will stir up some ideas.

sistermagpie @ August 12 2003, 08:04:59 UTC Re: Depression

I look forward to all the different versions.:-) You almost can't help but compare the families, especially since they're now so intertwined. In many ways Sirius and Remus aren't Harry's fathers and there's nothing wrong with that. They didn't raise him from a child, they weren't there when he was growing up. I wonder if all of them (particularly Remus and Harry) expected more from this family than they got. I don't mean they're disappointed in each other, but that I wonder if Harry still looks at the Weasleys and feels like they know something that he doesn't, even though he should have a family. Does that make sense?

The Malfoys are almost too brutally pessimistic on their side. They want to believe the Weasleys don't have anything they lack. Draco and Harry both talk about their family life in ways the other kids don't. Both of them may feel insecure about some aspect of their family. Harry's family may, as you said, feel they lack the legitimacy of the Malfoys, the traditional structure, the history. But some of the Malfoys have been showing a definite envy of what Harry's family does have, that spontaneous and real affection for each other.

Draco has become very vocal about this, pointing out when Narcissa makes mistakes, like with the picture. I admit I find Narcissa's impulses much more potentially harmful on this score; she's the one who literally leaves her house and goes to Remus.' Her calling Harry "love" sounded to me that she really did have an impulse to slip into that family (perhaps Sirius being gone gave her more confidence about it), casually adopting Remus' terms of endearment for Harry. Sadly for Draco, that word really did come across as more tender and honest than her pet names for Draco. He's made it clear (sometimes viciously clear) that the one thing guaranteed to make him angry is Narcissa showing motherly affection for Harry and yet she does it again and again. I worry about Draco's reaction to this exachange in particular: Narcissa begs off leaving for Italy with Draco and Lucius to check up on Weetzie and Remus, then is eager to be there for Harry. Harry is the easier kid to be affectionate to but he's not the answer.

I wonder if Draco will have a reaction to that. He seems to have gotten to the point where he no longer lashes out at Harry when this happens, which is good, but it probably means further souring of his relationship with Narcissa, which will probably amuse Lucius to no end.

sistermagpie @ August 12 2003, 09:43:53 UTC Re: Depression

Also, how heartbreaking is it that Harry seems to have picked up Draco's habit of leaving things with the other person so he has to see them again? With ps it always just seemed like an affectation of his pride, where he wanted to have a pretend reason to "have to" see Harry again, but with Harry it seems like the kind of thing a child would do, like he feels like if he doesn't leave something with Remus he'll lose all connection to him. Seeing Harry do it that way I now think there may have been a bit of that with ps as well. Thrown into a situation where he feels the same kind of insecurity and lack of control, Harry starts picks up ps's habitual tick!:-(

black_dog @ August 12 2003, 21:26:33 UTC Re: Depression

Two points here. First, you raise the Weasleys as a model:

I wonder if Harry still looks at the Weasleys and feels like they know something that he doesn't

The Malfoys are almost too brutally pessimistic on their side. They want to believe the Weasleys don't have anything they lack.

I'm wary about over-sentimentalizing the Weasleys. Just to be contrarian -- Molly seems more and more like a head case, someone who would be exhausting and not at all fun to live with. And Fred and George and all are wonderful comic characters, and I love reading the Weasleys, but living that stuff every day . . . ? Did you ever see that SNL skit about the family that obsessively does "character voices" when they're hanging out together? Too much. So even "complete" and loving families obviously have their issues, and the Weasleys are not immune. I think that Harry, as much as he loves Ron, is not wild about the histrionics that are part of being a Weasley. And God knows how Ginny managed to turn out so sane.

I think Harry understands that the Weasley option is not available to him, and that this is not totally a bad thing. As for Draco -- well, again, we saw on Veritaserum night that he had a fascination with the internal dynamics of a big noisy family ("which of your brothers do you love the best? do you love your father more than your mother?"). But for someone as obsessed with emotional control as Draco is, I think the emotional messiness of the Weasleys is something he genuinely recoils from. I now have Carolyn Helibrun on the brain because of my reply to bluekivrin earlier today, but I would say that if they are both looking for an "alternative narrative" to contrast with their own experience, the Weasleys represent provocative raw material rather than an exemplary model.

The same thing goes, in a way, for Narcissa. Remember that when she first decided she needed to show more interest in Draco, she borrowed Molly as a model and went shrieking through Hogwarts after him. It was not a successful move, and it revolted Draco. She still seems to be wrestling with the issue of how to connect with him and making mistakes. I actually think the simplicity of her affection and concern for Harry might be teaching her something about how to connect with Draco.

Draco has become very vocal about . . . pointing out when Narcissa makes mistakes, like with the picture. I admit I find Narcissa's impulses much more potentially harmful on this score;

Narcissa is actually growing on me a bit as she struggles out of her shell. I'm really, really impressed with the way she stood up to Lucius, and with the obvious depth of her feelings for Remus. My sympathies on the whole Narcissa/Draco relationship are kind of divided. I said the other day that Narcissa was still too flaky and unstable for Draco to trust her, and I still think this is true. Draco still seems to need a rock of stability and certainty to lean on, and he gets that from his father rather than Narcissa -- you can't judge him for that, it's just a fact about where he is. On the other hand, the day Draco finds himself able to deal with Narcissa in a less needy way, as a flawed person who is dealing with her own intense issues, will mark a major step in his own maturity. And since it's partly his own job to get to that point, I'm not so willing to condemn Narcissa for doing things she needs to do, just because they set Draco off.

[continued . . . ]

sistermagpie @ August 13 2003, 07:45:16 UTC Re: Depression

Oh god yes--I wouldn't last five minutes in the Weasley household! But I do think they both hold a sort of fascination for both Harry and Draco as "the other." For Harry it's because they're the first family he ever really saw close up besides the Dursleys and for Draco because they're everything his family isn't, but you're totally right about their not being the goal for every family, as funny as they are to read about.

I'm having a hard time sorting through what I feel for the Malfoy situation at the moment. On one hand I feel like ps needs to get over the constant turmoil about Narcissa and not overreact to everything in their relationship. Otoh, I know if I were him I would have done this by essentially cutting her off (not necessarily a good thing), something he seems unable to do because he's so immature and wildly emotional about his parents, not to mention demanding of attention.

Any step away from Lucius is a good thing, but I still have a hard time always just cheering Narcissa on on every step of her voyage of self-discovery. I think she should be independent and make her own decisions, but that also means taking some big responsibilities for the life she's created. Sometimes it seems like things are too messed up in her family, that she doesn't know what to do there, so she takes refuge in the warm fuzzies Remus and his family offers. I don't blame her for that, but it brings its own problems.

It's like...there are two families here that are in trouble because of an obvious flirtation between two members. We think Sirius is mad (and somewhat cruel) for flirting with Lucius and cheer Narcissa for being angry at Lucius and that's right because of what Lucius is and what he stands for (though it's not like Narcissa left him after the incident at the school). At the same time, though, we worry over Harry's family breaking up and cheer for ps's family breaking up, which is more problematic, especially since when Narcissa runs from Lucius she often runs to Remus and while Narcissa feels part of the family at Dogear Draco doesn't. His only connection there is that he and Harry are friends at school. Remus is just a professor and Snape is a professor who, last we heard, didn't much like him.

In general ps can be incredibly bratty when it comes to Narcissa, but I think we should also note that there are certain lines he doesn't cross with her. His acting out against her essentially boils down to his not coming when she calls (whether it's to fly together, owl her, or meet with her) and going away from her. But aside from his occasionally blunt factual corrections on lj he doesn't seem to have ever said any of the cruel things he could say to her. Lucius provides a horrible model for saying mean things to his wife, but Draco doesn't seem to want to go there. For the most part he doesn't post his grievances with her so we only ever get her side of the story and have to try to figure out how he feels.

sistermagpie @ August 13 2003, 07:47:34 UTC Re: Depression

(con't)

She's much more obviously sympathetic for that reason--it looks like she's trying and he's just being difficult so why should we feel badly for him? But then her posts also seem to give the general impression taht she has a warmer relationship with Remus and Harry. Her attempt to act like Molly failed miserably, but here we see Narcissa showing kindness and love as herself. That she hasn't been able to do this with her own family has got to be painful for her and for ps, but as of yet she hasn't been able to get over the thing that prevents it. Then she posts publically how she'd rather be with Remus than on vacation with her family. I can't help it--if I were her kid my reaction to that would be to be cold, to show exactly the same sentiment in my own way. I realize she was referring to her irritation with Lucius here, but I wouldn't blame ps for seeing it as her preferring that family over hers, especially since he must be perfectly aware of his own antagonism. He gives her plenty of reasons to want to be elsewhere. I know when I feel like somebody doesn't want to be with me, I leave. For all Remus and Sirius' problems Harry has been the prime concern for both of them in this. I think Draco feels much more a pawn in Lucius and Narcissa's fight than Harry would ever feel with Remus and Sirius.

Then there's also the whole Harry issue, which is totally complicated. Harry, for whatever reason, seems to be the strongest influence in ps's life besides Lucius. It's Harry, imo, who's made ps think about his behavior, has drawn him into a wider social circle, started him giving a bit more in relationships. He wanted to be at his side when he was injured the way Narcissa wants to be with Remus. But Narcissa interferes with Harry and Draco doesn't interfere with Remus. She wants her own relationship with him, one that freaks ps out. I don't think she's working against ps in her relationship with Harry, but I don't think she's working for him either.

The picture thing does show an interesting step, though, you're right. She retreated rather than get defensive, just accepted his correction and that could be a good thing, especially if she really thought about it. I don't see this situation as hopeless, by any means, I just don't see the solution in sight yet.

black_dog @ August 13 2003, 11:23:18 UTC Re: Depression

On Narcissa and Draco -- I think the essence of her problem with PS is that her overtures to him are all about herself, she wants to cast the both of them in a role of her own imagining, and she's not really open to who he is and what he's feeling. And Draco senses this, and resents it deeply.

Narcissa seems to see PS only through a filter of her own fantasies and her own issues. When she springs the Privet Drive visit on him and he recoils, she doesn't say "he looked annoyed" or "he looked disgusted" -- she doesn't place herself in his own head at all, except to call him "moody." She says he "put on what I used to call . . . his 'grumpy dragon' face." It's revoltingly self-referential, cloyingly nostalgic, totally disconnected from the actual feelings that are present. The mistaken baby pictures are another classic example of what she's doing. It doesn't matter who they really are, as long as in her own head they are an image of her "Little Dragon."

You're right that Draco doesn't trash her as much as he might, although you and I differed over the meaning of her "elegant, high class illness" a week or so back. I think he clearly does love her -- I'm thinking of the scene at Dogear a while back, where he physically comforts her, pats and hugs her, when she breaks down. It's interesting that, as you point out, his defiance of her is mostly about refusing to be summoned, refusing to be something she can control and move about like an object, or cast in a role according to her whim. That's the sensitive spot -- he's not going to be an enabler for her self-absorbtion when it's a matter of sacrificing his own dignity, subordinating himself to her fantasy.

No wonder, then, that he resents her attention to Harry. It's got to be infuriating that she's interested in Harry as an individual but unable to see PS himself except as an extension of her idealized domestic life.

But that last point is where I find myself divided in my reaction to how she is treating PS. Yes, it's devastating that she can't or won't see him for who he is. But it's also an issue that it's very hard for Narcissa to have perspective on right now, because it's so central to the crisis she's going through. It's hard for her to look at Draco without the filter of fantasy, because then she'd have to consider the brutal question of whether Draco is part of the bad old life she has to reject, or whether she can bring him along, in a sense, to her new life. And she can't answer that by herself, it partly depends on Draco.

You make a couple of comments that suggest discomfort with the idea that Narcissa has a right to walk away from her family. And there's a hint of this same feeling in the possible irony of Narcissa's latest post -- "My needs are very important. Yes they are." But really, what does she owe them? What does she owe Lucius, considering what he is, and the fact that he has threatened her? How much self-sacrifice does she really owe her son, at 17? (I might have a different answer if he were 12 or 13. But at this point, in the normal course of things, this would be his last summer at home anyway.) I think her main responsibility to Draco is to try and create an authentic relationship with him, try and get over herself when she deals with him. But it's not really, at this point, still about maintaining a stable home for him.

I actually feel the same way about Sirius and Remus. You say that we're mourning the breakup of Harry's family but egging on the breakup of Draco's family. I don't know, though. I'm beginning to think that Harry will be better off without Sirius. It's tragic and painful, but it's not the worst outcome given the circumstances and the personalities. Harry and Draco are both old enough to have to deal. It's tragic that they're only beginning to really understand families now that those families are breaking down; it's tragic that they've only had a taste or a parody, not the full, durable enjoyment, of a happy family. But that's kind of how it goes sometimes. And their job is to look to the future, and construct something better out of their own hopes and experiences.

A contrarian view, for your consideration.

black_dog @ August 12 2003, 21:27:33 UTC Re: Depression

[continued]

The bit with the baby pictures was kind of chilling, I admit, and it's evidence that Narcissa still has a ways to go. But I thought it was interesting that she didn't respond to Draco's comment. In the past, she would have made an excuse for the mistake and brushed it off. I like to think that this time, it gave her pause, and she realized she had nothing helpful to say, no easy way to make up for it. That's progress, that's a baby-step, at least.

But things are awfully tough for Draco right now. In the long run, he badly needs to get some emotional distance from his father. Because his father is a horrible person, and horrible in ways that precisely reflect a certain type of person's need for a sense of omnipotence and emotional invulnerability. What's the fascist, DE ideology all about, at the bottom, except feeding infantile cravings for absolute power and untouchable superiority? But the trick is going to be finding ways to empower PS to stand on his own feet, and what he's getting instead, from Narcissa, are these terrifying signs that he doesn't matter, which drive him deeper toward his father and all the things Lucius stands for.

The only way out for Draco, I think, leads back via Harry to the whole Remus-Snape-Narcissa thing. Once school resumes I hope PS is drawn into the orbit of adults who can help him. He might be able to trust Snape, he might connect with Remus because of Harry. Remus in turn might help him get a more tolerant perspective on his mother.

But now I've veered off from analysis into projecting the future, and the ground is disappearing beneath my feet. So, I'll hold off there, with a deepened sense of the jam PS is in.

sistermagpie @ August 13 2003, 10:01:30 UTC Re: Depression

But the trick is going to be finding ways to empower PS to stand on his own feet, and what he's getting instead, from Narcissa, are these terrifying signs that he doesn't matter, which drive him deeper toward his father and all the things Lucius stands for.

I said all that and I could have just quoted this. Yeah, this is one of the biggest problems I see. A lot of Narcissa's posts, to me, have the unintentional subtext of, "Sorry, but I just can't/couldn't/don't love you."

blue_lightning @ August 13 2003, 10:21:16 UTC Re: Depression

I think discussion here has now regressed to the point where it's no longer about adding/countering previous points, but about just writing out our feelings on the matter until they make sense for us individually. It's leading to a lot of repetition, I realize, but at least people have gotten a chance to clarify their thoughts for themselves, right?

Great analysis, all of you. ^_^

black_dog @ August 13 2003, 11:27:55 UTC Re: Depression

it's no longer about adding/countering previous points, but about just writing out our feelings on the matter until they make sense for us individually

Yes, but that's part of the fun, isn't it? The reason this soap opera is so self-absorbing is that it provokes us into clarifying our own feelings about family, and love, and emotional health.

I realize, though, that as the originator of the post, your inbox is getting bombarded with each of these long comments. So like gypsies, the sister and I might once again allow our conversation to migrate to a new thread. Thanks for a temporary home!

sistermagpie @ August 13 2003, 12:18:44 UTC Re: Depression

What the heck...I'm just going to make a thread. Everyone is welcome, of course!