sistermagpie @ 2003-08-13 15:16:00

Happy Families...or not
Mood: enthralled

black_dog and I have been having a running conversation in many threads that basically centers on families. Malfoy and Black-Potter-Lupin families in particular. I figured I'd just put it here on its own thread so we're not taking over other ones, but all comments welcome. It's not a private conversation.

It starts with black_dog's last post.



Your contrarian views are always so agreeable!:-)

On Narcissa and Draco -- I think the essence of her problem with PS is that her overtures to him are all about herself, she wants to cast the both of them in a role of her own imagining, and she's not really open to who he is and what he's feeling. And Draco senses this, and resents it deeply.

Yes, the word I wanted to use before was that she doesn't "see" him and he knows it. A while ago she posted the portrait of him as a child at the piano and described him playing it. He informed her that he had, in fact, destroyed the piano. He seems determined for her to see him as he is, in an unflattering light. PS is usually puffing himself up and denying wrongdoing (unless it's a rakish evil sort of wrongdoing he's proud of) but here he's directly contradicting the very image of himself you'd expect him to put across. She says he was a beautiful, talented boy, he says he was a destructive, talentless brat. Harry, by contrast, does see him, which is why he's able to hurt him. Even now that Harry's more disposed to treat him gently, he's still able to call him on b.s., like during that one argument when Harry said Draco was just worried about himself.

You make a couple of comments that suggest discomfort with the idea that Narcissa has a right to walk away from her family. And there's a hint of this same feeling in the possible irony of Narcissa's latest post -- "My needs are very important. Yes they are." But really, what does she owe them? What does she owe Lucius, considering what he is, and the fact that he has threatened her? How much self-sacrifice does she really owe her son, at 17?

I don't think she owes it to either Lucius or Draco to stay in the marriage. In fact I agree with you on Harry, Sirius and Remus as well. (I say "we" meaning more the general reaction on
nraged to the posts as they've happened.) Both Harry and Draco are essentially adults. In general I believe that there's a certain period of life in which to have a childhood (it's called...childhood!) and after that you can't have one. It wouldn't be the end of the world for either Draco or Harry if their parents' divorced. Harry didn't know Remus or Sirius growing up; the Malfoys have said they weren't very hands-on during Draco's childhood anyway. There's not much to even destablize here. So no, I've got no problem with Narcissa leaving Lucius and if Draco decided to be a DE that would be his decision and she shouldn't stay in that circle for him. At some point you do have to let go of your kids, though luckily they haven't yet reached that point.

What I'm uncomfortable with, I think, is the idea that Draco, as her son, could ever be part of any old life Narcissa left behind. Lucius is usually given most of the credit for Draco's ideology but really he's just as much a product of Narcissa's teaching. Remember in the outing thread, for instance, the betrayal he seemed to feel at her suddenly not being appalled by the idea of homosexuality. She's supported Lucius in his ideas in the past, done work for Voldemort, lived by the code of pureblood superiority. It's not yet clear how far she's come from those beliefs now. Draco's actions are ultimately his own responsibility and no one else's, but I don't think Narcissa can truly move on without fully recognizing her role in many ugly parts of ps's personality (not just his beliefs but his social skills). That's not to say that she's responsible for his actions, just that she has had a big hand in shaping him and if I were her I'd not be able to walk away and feel okay about it. For me, it's not primarily about her doing something for ps because only he can make his own future at this point. It's more that I don't think she can really move on without confronting the past years of her life honestly.

Neither Draco nor Harry posts about this, which IC for both of them--Harry rarely posts about how he's feeling and ps mostly avoids these kinds of uncomfortable issues in his posts too. It's kind of weird, though, the way the adults in this situation have now all been posting a lot, going back and forth, publically squabbling, flirting, making plans while the two kids are silent. Not to mention that the two kids in question are both so protective and guarded about their own love lives in their own ways. Without Harry and Draco speaking for themselves we don't really know how they're taking this and maybe we're not giving them enough credit. Harry seems concerned about Remus, primarily. Sirius says he felt like Harry didn't want to be surfing with him but that's too vague to interpret clearly. Many people off-NA have wondered about Harry's whereabouts at different times but generally he's been with Remus or in his room at Dogear. There's been no signs that he's falling apart. It's very different from his depression in July, when he was worried about Sirius' safety. Right now he seems to be taking the role of adult in the situation well in hand, given Remus' latest post. The sulking part immediately made me think of Lucius, actually, when he said Draco was sulking on the couch at Dogear.

ps could also be moving in a healthier direction than we think. He's had some minor foot-stamping moments (like when Narcissa brought him to Harry's) but usually when we hear about him he's removing himself from his parents. After the trip to Little Whinging he went to visit M.B.'s mother and then wrote a story for Harry. His own recap of the morning in this post is potentially interesting, especially the first paragraph where he comes to the conclusion that he will wait until he's left Hogwarts and decorate the house with his own opinions. He also mentions, apropos of something, that he hasn't made any permenant plans.

I was also looking back at his summer stuff for interaction with his parents and this line from this post suddenly struck me: "My Parents seem to be having some sort of culinary difficulties as of late, though I'm not entirely sure what the trouble is as I've been out to Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley to eat as of late." At that point M.B. was still at the Malfoys, but apparently Draco had started eating out, something that seems very interesting for a Malfoy. It just made it seem like he'd started removing himself even more. This is also the day after he kicked Harry in the ankle, but not even hard enough to wake him up.;-) He may be considering his own break for independence, and that would be a very good thing.


Comments:


blue_lightning @ August 13 2003, 18:41:34 UTC

Neither Draco nor Harry posts about this, which IC for both of them--Harry rarely posts about how he's feeling and ps mostly avoids these kinds of uncomfortable issues in his posts too.

In Draco's most recent post, he seems to be more sincerely cynical/bitter than usual. He blames his mother's attitude on being around "half-breeds" for too long, and his father's on being pestered by Black online. It seems that he is not only acutely aware that there are problems in his family, but that he is inclined to blame Sirius and Remus for it. Not to mention that at one point during his visit...

"Potter nearly scraped off my entire elbow because he decided that the proper thing to do would be to shove me into the corner of the wall. I suppose I must have been getting on his nerves, for which I would feel entirely terrible, as that has certainly never been my intention."

Could it be that Draco was making snide comments about Harry's own family? Could he be seeking comfort in highlighting the pain in other families, and by foisting blame away from his own parents? Does that fall in line with any of the theories you two were raising earlier?

Your thoughts on this matter would be much appreciated. ^_~

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sistermagpie @ August 13 2003, 19:30:31 UTC

I can only speak for my own response to ps's post (mostly: HAHAHA). I found its open annoyance really refreshing. His cynicism and bitterness seemed, to me, exactly what I'd expect from a kid like he is, at his age, in his situation. He sounds a little more like M.B. talking about her parents.

His dismissal of Narcissa is very well done on many levels of snark. He turns her emotional turmoil into a self-indulgent personal melodrama, then offers spending time with Remus as the one thing that could cause this kind of despair, knowing exactly what's really going on. Then he gives the same kind of dig to Lucius, telling us about Lucius' crossness while letting us know he thinks talking to Sirius should make anybody cross. Surprisingly, I didn't feel like ps was seriously trying to make the case that Sirius was pestering his father. I thought it was more directed at Lucius. Then he gets in his great line about how his folks are avoiding each other but he's presumably supposed to act like he doesn't notice. I can't remember any other time when I've gotten such a "my parents are idiots" subtext from him, though many teenagers (especially ones in Draco's position) exist in this state perpetually. This could be a really fun year with ps.:-)

The elbow scrape is intriging as usual, especially since it was Harry shoving ps rather than getting hit with a golf club. Ps says he was getting on Harry's nerves (and that this was never his intention, which means it probably was his intention), so he may have just been whinging incessently or teasing him and Harry gave him a shove, rather than the two of them were fighting about something serious (Sirius). God knows he had stuff to whinge about--a pricker! Sunburn on his scalp! (Been there, ps. It sucks.) He may have actually been taking Harry's mind off the real problems at the time, for all we know.

Given ps' stated disinterest in his parents problems, it doesn't seem like he would have been lashing out at Harry about Sirius. He's also making jokes about Harry acting like he's the hero of the WW when everybody knows that's ps, bemoaning Harry's fascist tendencies in making ps come get his watch--sounds like they're on good terms. They stayed in the garden long enough to get sunburned (which for me and ps would take about five minutes but Harry probably longer so perhaps they walked around a lot--first time ps saw the place during the day?). I think they had a nice time together and their nice times often include some roughhousing. I expect Harry to reply in defense of himself on The Scraping.

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zionsstarfish @ August 13 2003, 19:46:21 UTC

Also, ps says that sunblock was eventually retrieved, and applied. Here is my requisite leer: :leer: ;)

Also, I think it is interesting that ps' watch ended up at the Leaky Cauldron, and I find it sweet that j_h may have been wearing it.

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black_dog @ August 13 2003, 20:35:23 UTC

I find it sweet that j_h may have been wearing it.

Oh, that's nice, hadn't even thought of that. I love that image.

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blue_lightning @ August 13 2003, 20:07:37 UTC

It is striking, however, that Draco's reaction is, in the active sense, similar to that of his parents. Lucius sealed himself away in his quarters, Narcissa in hers, and Draco responded by staying in his, as well.

Not only does this offer the literal fact that their family life is becoming very cellular and cut off (well, DUH), it also worries me, in that because Draco - most likely as a result of his aristocratic breeding - is acting in the same manner as his parents, this whole experience may well serve (perhaps unintentionally) as another exercise in conditioning, the outcome of which would be that he will take to sealing himself off whenever such conflicts ensue later in life.

He may be derisive of his parents now, but not only has he exhibited some of their traits and qualities in the past, it seems he is still learning from them, even as he derides them.

This is, of course, rather commonplace for adolescents, but unfortunate nonetheless.

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sistermagpie @ August 14 2003, 10:04:00 UTC

Draco is kind of king of hiding to escape his problems, really. He's got his hole at Hogwarts that M.B. has to drag him out of, or drag Harry to, he's got the theater on his estate. With most people when they're mad at him he waits until they come to him (if they ever do). Hopefully people like M.B. will give Draco a taste for having friends to talk with when he's upset.

Draco definitely exhibits a lot of traits from his parents--his derision over some things about them doesn't change that. There's never any doubt he is a Malfoy. He'll probably always be a flawed individual, but he's also becoming more and more his own person with his own twist on the template. He also seems to have found himself some good influences that he'll hopefully listen to, people who not only support him but reign him in.

It's hard for me to imagine Harry posting much at the moment. If I were him I'd figure anything I posted would open me up for questions and I don't think he really feels like dealing with most people right now. It's a good sign that he sought out ps, though, because that was Harry taking the initiative to have social contact with someone after he missed ps' visit during his depression. I still get the feeling they didn't see much of each other at the party, but either way but whatever their interaction there ps left his watch and Harry used it to arrange a meeting in person on his terms. Once ps got there Harry seemed to have a plan in mind too, taking him on a "strange journey" through the gardens (probably showing him around). Anytime Harry goes after something he wants is a good time, I think!

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blue_lightning @ August 13 2003, 20:22:10 UTC

I expect Harry to reply in defense of himself on The Scraping.

It chills me that Harry hasn't posted a real LJ post since July 10th. One can't help but wonder if he's talking about his real feelings with ANYONE. If he's just exchanging lighthearted snark with Draco, and Remus can't get him to open up past "Are you okay?" and Sirius's only attempts at talking seem to involve conveying requests or giving surfing/apparition tips, then I can't help but feel that maybe Harry's gotten to the point where he's repressing all his true feelings. This could be detrimental to the war effort, if he's unable to share doubts and insecurities with the Order when it comes time for him to be a part of the Final Battle and whatnot.

*sighs* It must also suck for him now. Adolescent males are more likely to jump right from feeling low and then actually trying to commit suicide than females, who usually express themselves first through some means. I worry about Harry these days.

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black_dog @ August 13 2003, 20:33:54 UTC

You've said everything I was even half-thinking about PS and JH's visit, and more. I totally agree, I think they had a good time and the roughing-up was either nothing much, or a code for sex. If they had had a bad time, his tone toward Harry would not have been so playful. Clearly they spent a bunch of time outside togehter, and then inside together, hopefully applying aloe.

I'm trying to figure out a rule for when to read PS' snark as bitterness and when to read it as a kind of exuberance. The test, maybe, is how extravagant it is. The post he made after Dumbledore's party had nothing actually implausible in it, it was a straightforward whine. But all this talk about low-riding broomsticks and no-one in Italy speaking English and himself rather than Harry being the hero of the wizarding world is the kind of deliberate absurdity that, I think, marks his relatively good moods.

Everybody has their own mental backstory about the nature of PS and JH's relationship. I won't even pretend to defend mine, but the vibe I get is that they do have an occasionally physical reltionship, that it's experimental for PS and sometimes, more in the past than now, has been hard for him to deal with. I can't defend that here (I might try in another post) and could get shot down in flames by the merest flick from a player. But it's all a long preface to saying that when PS talks about being shoved into a corner, I am very happy to read that as code.

I can't help thinking that his talk with Harry has helped him look at his parents with a bit of ghoulish amusement rather than simple adolescent sulkiness. I mean, the family issues must be uppermost on both of their minds, and neither of them seem the type to avoid the real issues that are occupying them at any given time. So I like to think they had a good long talk, and compared notes, and griped a bit and mocked each other for griping, and maybe shoved each other around when the mocking got too close to the bone. It must be comforting to both of them to have someone who's going through similar pain, and coping rather than being crushed.

I totally agree with you that when PS talks about Sirius bothering Lucius he is positively mocking his father, and not accusing Sirius. He's attributing to both Lucius and Narcissa their own delusions, or at least their own poses, and making them look ridiculous. Sure, he's a little hurt by the situation in the villa, but it's a good sign that he's able to master that feeling enough to turn it into a fairly savage comic take on the two of them, and on their apparent expectation that he's "not supposed to notice." And though he mentions both Sirius and Remus, he doesn't do it in a way that would be hurtful to Harry, so he's resisting any temptation to point at Harry's suffering to offset his own. More and more the Harry-Draco relationship is looking like a rock for both of them. Yay!

[I owe you a separate post on the stuff in your opening comment -- about the grownups, and about Narcissa's responsibility for how Draco turned out.]

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sistermagpie @ August 14 2003, 10:52:16 UTC

That's an excellent rule about ps' mood. I do think extravagance and silliness (bordering on absurd and surreal) are a sign of a good mood. Excellent catch!

I'd love to know what they talked about during their walk but ps doesn't seem to see Harry or anyone in Harry's family as the enemy here. His one really insulting remark (calling Remus a halfbreed) is still, I think, directed completely at Narcissa. Narcissa and Remus may not always be the best influence on each other, I've been thinking lately, and I think any annoyance ps would feel towards Remus would be over the fact that he was reminding him of his mother.

I'd love to think that the two of them could joke about their parents with each other. Both of them are probably more skittish about that than most people are. Harry is used to just being completely grateful for Remus and Sirius and Draco's lived in awe and fear of his parents for a long time so they might find it easier to test out some criticism with each other rather than other people.

He's attributing to both Lucius and Narcissa their own delusions, or at least their own poses, and making them look ridiculous.

And I love it.:-) Compared to how he would have been in the past I don't even think he's even all that hurt about the situation at the villa. I think he's come a long way this summer in having his own places he'd like to be. He's had some major shifts in his life this year--his parents are no longer his only source of confidence. Seeing Harry again may have calmed him down a lot--they're still friends, it didn't disappear, they can hang out at school. Their parents fighting hasn't destroyed them when in the past ps probably would have let it.

What do you think about the replies, btw? M.B.'s completely cracks me up--chest hair envy indeed, I say. Narcissa sounds pretty irritated, uses the word "trying" to describe his post and, interestingly, picks out the complaints about the French for criticism. This is pretty funny given that ps's complaint about the French in this post was that they spoke French. Plus there's her funny description of how she and Lucius aren't really avoiding each other.

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black_dog @ August 14 2003, 14:45:07 UTC

Just a short note on your last graph, because I replied to the points in your big post below.

I laughed at MB's remark about chest hair! It reminds me of another time she sort of complained that she had more body hair than PS did. I wonder if the implicit dig at his masculinity really stings, though -- I suspect PS is vain enough about being pretty that he'd rather have a smooth chest anyway.

My first thought on Narcissa's response about the French was actually that her player was having fun with a slip by PS' player -- or maybe slip is too strong a word. If I were going to analyze, I guess I'd suggest that identifying herself as French is a way of thinking about her distance from Lucius, and or reminding PS about his dependence on his ancestry, which he might prefer to forget. But I'm wary, for once, about giving it too much weight.

I thought what Narcissa was doing in her entire reply was very interesting though. She seemed to be tendering a kind of offer or bargain -- if you, PS, will buy into my denial that your father and I are estranged, I will reward you with a fun trip to an ancient quidditch ground. She wants his company, but she's still extracting a price for it, and PS is not buying. He's still not willing to connect with her on the terms of her own fantasies. It would be interesting to see his reaction if she admitted she were having difficulties with Lucius, and invited him for some time together to talk about it.

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Anonymous @ August 13 2003, 20:12:06 UTC

Where is the blackdog's post which you are referencing? I've been trying to find it to read to no avail. :D

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sistermagpie @ August 13 2003, 20:25:17 UTC

Oh sorry--I quoted parts of it in italics but here's a link to the original post in full, which came at the end of another thread:

The original post. Oops.

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adolfa @ August 14 2003, 10:23:59 UTC Part One

My two cents about a divorce in the Malfoys (figured since this was for discussion of the family breakups, this would be the right place)...

*ramble ramble ramble*

Personally, I don't feel it would be fair to any of the Malfoys if Narcissa left. First of all, though it may not seem like it, it would be insulting to Narcissa's intelligence -- it would show that she went through all that training from Hera Peligroso (sp, probably) without learning a thing! Her training is not only about independence, but also about facing her problems -- not running away from them. Lucius, as a whole, isn't a problem to her, but certain aspects of his personality are. Narcissa would be miserable without Lucius, not because of dependency problems, but because she loves him. And really, although I'm sure I'll get jumped on for this, I'm inclined to believe the feeling is reciprocated.

Right now, it's easy to hate Lucius and want him to die a painful death because let's face it, he's acting like a GIANT ASSHOLE. (Okay, for some [probably most] people, it's always easy to hate Lucius, but I'm just trying to make a point here. I'm normally a big Lucius fan, and even I'm thinking "Ugh. Asshole.") But it should be duly noted before any of this analysis is carried out that the Malfoys really do care for each other.

The problem with their relationship is that they're seeing each other in the wrong light. Narcissa needs to look at Lucius as Lucius and not Her Husband. Lucius needs to look at Narcissa as Narcissa and not a pet. They seem to have no trouble doing this when they're happy with each other, but this is, I believe, the only time they've actually had a mutual feeling of resentment toward each other during a fight. This is the only fight where Lucius has actually made an effort to get back into Narcissa's good graces (only to have his almost-apology rejected and then sulk and take cheap shots at her) instead of walking all over her; conversely, it's the only fight where Narcissa has actually faced up to her husband's faults and not made herself believe some crock about Fake Lucius. I don't believe this is the lead to a breakup. In fact, I could go as far as to say that this sort of a fight is actually good for their relationship, provided they both take some time to calm down and have a heart-to-heart.

(continued)

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adolfa @ August 14 2003, 10:24:18 UTC Part Two

I know people like to get wibbly over Sirius and Remus and H/D, but while there are all these deep analyses of Sirius and Remus's charactersiation, people are sort of casting aside the Malfoys' family problems as "oh, it's just the Malfoys, they don't have feelings" or "oh, it's just because Lucius is a Death Eater. ew, stinky". I think it's unfair to Narcissa to want her to leave the people she loves instead of actually working to repair her relationships like a normal person. If she did leave Lucius and Draco, she would be absolutely miserable, and what bugs me is of course everyone would assume it's because she has a "dependency problem". Um, no! You know something is wrong when people are so cynical and jaded that they refuse to even consider the idea that a woman could actually love her family. Isn't the entire principle of love about caring for another despite their faults? Couples who dwell on each others' bad points are the ones who divorce! And when, like this situation, a fault gets out of hand, you work it out, not run away. Walking out of a marriage of nineteen years (to a person you've known and liked much, much longer than that) without even trying to fix anything is, well, LAME.

(And yes, of course I realise the fact that Lucius is a DE is rather glaring, but that doesn't have anything to do with marriage, because Narcissa accepts it. Her learning independence is NOT about Lucius being a DE, people. She already knew that going into marriage! It's not like she woke up one day and thought "oh my GOD, my husband is a Death Eater!" His faults in the relationship department are not seeing her as his intellectual equal and, the obvious one, an inability to stop haranguing Sirius.)

No, I don't think Narcissa owes it to Lucius and Draco to stay with the family. I think she owes it to HERSELF, because this is her family, and she cares about them whether we, the readers, like it or not. I think it's actually helpful to their relationship that Narcissa is cutting Lucius down to size; calling him on being an arse, etc., because it's the first step towards proving to Lucius that she's just as intellectually capable as he (and his emotional superior, really. I mean, come on, people. Inside, he's 10). I really wish someone would just lock them in a room for a week and see what happens, but that's obviously never going to happen. They just need to talk, dammit! *headdesk*

Oh, and for all it's worth, *Lucius* is the one who needs help from Hera. His inability to accept any sort of outside help just pushes his mental age farther down.

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black_dog @ August 14 2003, 13:48:43 UTC Re: Part Two

I think you make an important point about Lucius and Narcissa loving each other, and having a real connection. I like the way the players maintain the complexity even of a villain like Lucius -- as evil as he is, he's gotten to me when he talks about his fear of becoming estranged from his son just like he and his father were, or when he shinily reminisces about his youth and sings songs from the '60's.

At the same time, I think in evaluating these characters morally its important to avoid the whole "Hitler-loved-dogs" kind of argument. I think we sometimes set entirely too demanding standards for monsters -- so that when we find signs of humanity or complexity in them we are taken aback and question the initial harsh judgment. But monstrosity is perhaps better seen as a very ordinary and human thing, an everyday proclivity to hurt people and ruin their lives. There are plenty of monsters walking around as presentable and socially competent human beings, and Lucius is one of them.

Another thing that I think we as a fandom tend to lose sight of is the long-term shape of Lucius and Narcissa's lives. It's not like they've been the "Death Eaters next door" for the past 15 or 20 years. Voldemort is a phenomenon of the '70's. Combining the NA and canon timetables, Lucius was about 25 and Narcissa 20 during his heyday. Then he was gone, seemingly permanently, for 15 years, and barely active for perhaps the last year or two. Only now is he actively reviving his movement at full force.

So Lucius and Narcissa, are well-established in mid-life as a prominent couple with perhaps some slight unsavoriness in their distant past, but one that many wizards have reason not to look too closely at. It all seems long behind them. They now find themselves in their early 40's, suddenly confronting the return of this horror out of their youth, this embarassment they thought was long behind them, and it's making claims on them. It's like finding out that Richard Nixon had been reincarnated, give or take a few years.

So I think it's a misunderstanding of their dynamic to think that this is a purely domestic drama, that their marriage has just been coasting along in a vacuum and Narcissa is suddenly deciding to opt out. They're facing a crisis because of Voldemort's return. Lucius seems to be opting to return to the loyalties of his youth, and may be trying or at least hoping to draw Draco along with him. Narcissa has drifted along in support of her husband, but is finally getting a clearer sense of what Voldemort is about and how he threatens many things she cares about.

They're at a real crossroads, over some deadly serious issues, and I don't think they're going to work it out just by talking it over.

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sistermagpie @ August 15 2003, 08:43:35 UTC Re: Part Two

I'm glad you brought up the Malfoy relationship! Because I agree that they love each other. I also agree with black_dog's warnings about Hitler loving dogs idea, but I think I may apply it differently. For me, Narcissa's love of Lucius and of many things in their life is a real force for her. I think at this point it's greater than any moral quandries she has about Voldemort. That she loves Lucius the way she does implies to me that she is basically fine with his connections, even if she'd rather he didn't have them.

This is part of what makes Remus' relationship with her so interesting to me. He is angry at Sirius for chumming up to Lucius who wants to kill Harry. Yet he's best friends with Lucius' wife. Remus gets around this by concentrating on how Sirius should know better, than he can't pretend to not know what Lucius is, while Narcissa can't. I just don't think Remus can be as sure as he seems to be yet whether Narcissa would make a different choice if she saw Lucius as clearly as he expects Sirius to. I feel like Remus may want to play down Narcissa's feelings for Lucius as less powerful than they are because it gives him more hope, sometimes.

Lucius and Narcissa, in some ways, remind me of Tom and Daisy Buchanan from The Great Gatsby. Iirc there's a scene towards the end where Jake sees them in the kitchen talking over a plate of cold chicken. It sums them up for him: they are a married couple, a united front. They are not going to leave each other. Gatsby and Tom's mistress were fooling themselves to ever believe they had replaced Tom or Daisy in the other's heart, that the marriage was breaking up. To me, this is a lot like the Malfoys. That Narcissa left Lucius and has been angry at him, that he has responded by being cold and insulting, does not necessarily mean they are any less of a couple than they were before. Only they understand their love for one another and how they make it work. Even with Narcissa's latest reply to ps she presented a united front.

Narcissa's problems with Lucius so far, at least the one's she's stated, have all been personal. She didn't like his dealings with Draco, she doesn't like the way he deals with her. Now she doesn't like him flirting with Sirius. That they threatened each other over revealing secrets, to me, shows even more than they both know exactly what the other is capable of. Just as it's a bad idea to overlook Lucius DE ties because of his humanity moments, I don't think we should leap to the conclusion that Narcissa has dropped her old ideologies because of her new connections. Being friends with Harry or Remus does not necessarily make one a good guy or put your loyalty firmly on their side.

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black_dog @ August 14 2003, 14:37:33 UTC

It's kind of weird, though, the way the adults in this situation have now all been posting a lot, going back and forth, publically squabbling, flirting, making plans while the two kids are silent.

I kind of like the way the recent posts have all focused on the adults, though. The kids are adorable and squeeworthy, but it's time for some additional gravitas, not least because of the increasing impact of Voldemort on the story line. It's a way, I think, of shifting the tone of the game from something purely domestic, purely a romantic comedy, to something that can carry some darker emotional weight as well.

What I'm uncomfortable with, I think, is the idea that Draco, as her son, could ever be part of any old life Narcissa left behind.

One of the things I love about NA is that it really is about relationships rather than individuals -- and not just elective relationships but predetermined, fated ones like the relationships in a family. It's pervaded by a sense of connection and dependence, not just between peers but across generations. The individuality of the characters comes out in conflict, as a resistance to an over-determined fate but not necessarily as a clear sense of what they want to be. Each of them inherit gratuitous sources of strength but also deeply compromising wounds. And at every step of the way they're dealing with a conflict of loyalties, not simply a clear path to a goal.

So when you say about Narcissa, I don't think she can really move on without confronting the past years of her life honestly, I agree with you in principle but have trouble translating that principle into a simple course of action. I said below, to adolfa, that her past life is being rendered obsolete whether she likes it or not -- because Voldemort's return is forcing a choice of loyalties that she and Lucius both thought was long behind them. So whatever she's done, she's done, for better or worse. If she made Draco an arrogant little SOB, she didn't make him a Death Eater -- current circumstances, and perhaps Lucius, are threatening to do that. And yet she also made him the kind of spirited person who may be able to defy that fate. She gave him her narcissism but she also made him the kind of exuberant and extroverted person, with a wonderful capacity for connecting with other people, that may let him overcome that narcissism. She left him a complicated legacy, and really, it's Draco's job to sort it out, it's not something she can do for him, even if she had enough insight to attempt it. Only in an idealized kind of therapy do people have the ability to say -- here are all the forces acting on me, and here is what they did to me, and here is how I am going to be free from them. The norm, inevitably, is muddling through.

So I am more patient that you, I think, with Narcissa's muddling, even if it leads her away from her family now. And even though I'm sympathetic when the things she does hurt Draco, I think he's stuck with that, he has to muddle, too. And he's not without resources -- some of them from Narcissa -- as he tries to do this. It would be nice to think that tidying up their relationship could lead to a resolution of their personal issues, but I think in practice it's going to be the other way around -- they both have to get more sane, on their own, before they can connect in a better way. It may well be other people, with whom they have less fraught relationships, who can be most helpful in letting them make progress.

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sistermagpie @ August 15 2003, 08:28:29 UTC

I'm really happy to see the adults getting a good meaty story too. There's such great material with these guys, given their generation. Their current relationships differ from the ones they had in the past, but this kind of thing brings it all up.

With Narcissa and Draco I think I'm maybe drawing a bigger distinction between personal and political. I totally agree on the Voldemort front that Draco has been given what he needs to not go down that path and that this is his choice to make. I'm not sure how realistic she is on the Voldemort situation yet. That is, does she still entertain the idea that she can be married to a DE and bring cookies to Harry? This is something that concerns me in Remus' relationship with her as well. I mean, Lucius was working to bring Voldemort back so he's never been all that disconnected.

On the personal side, it seems like both of them want to have a better relationship, including Narcissa, but they don't yet have it. Both of them are making things difficult but I feel like Narcissa is doing it moreso. One of the main things about this character is that she lives in a sort of fantasy world where she sees things the way she wants them to be. That's why it seems important for her to be able to confront things about the relationship and about herself that are painful. If she doesn't do that I don't think she'll ever really be happy--nobody can be. What she "did" to ps isn't the end of the world and he should be able to get past it. What he can't do, I don't think, is just agree to move on and put it in the past and have a good relationship with his mother. If he did that they would be back to the same non-relationship they had before where he was superficially adoring her while not really feeling connected. Both of them need to work to have a relationship, but Narcissa can't work at anything if she denies it's there, you know?

It's true that this isn't a one-sided thing. PS has to learn how to get sane as well. But in some ways he already is sane, especially on this issue. For instance, in the ps/j_h question thread I was struck by a couple of ps' answers about his childhood. He remembered his mother leaving him in the bath and, the one that got me the most, he remembered her letting him levitate all over the ballroom. That was his happiest memory, iirc, and it's why he likes to fly in the ballroom. Um, wow! ps *does* have loving memories of his mother and seems to treasure them. I think he was he was happy with her giving him a bath before she was called away; I think he loved levitating because it was a happy day with her. That answered question, to me, was a completely honest declaration of love barely concealed behind the gruffness, devoid of any attempts to manipulate. That he's held on to it gives me more hope than ever that he's healthy and it was Narcissa that gave him that memory. It feels to me like Draco is willing to meet her more than halfway, that he is pretty clear on what he needs and can ask for them clearly. It would be a shame for either of them to run away from this relationship when it could be so strong for both of them. If Narcissa needed to separate from him that would be fine, but only if she's really honest about their situation.

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