snowballjane @ August 27 2003, 09:22:13 UTC

People do really stupid stuff.

People do really stupid stuff at parties.

People do really stupid stuff after a few drinks.

People are more likely to try to justify themselves than apologise. Even when they've done really stupid stuff.

I think your missing link is ordinary human stupid stuff.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 09:29:47 UTC

yes, it's ordinary stupid stuff. The point is that if sirius had no specific justification for needing to start a conversation with lucius (ie. he could've talked to someone else; he wasn't being forced by any snarkiness on Remus's part to seek "love" elsewhere) then the majority of the blame for this situation must rest on him. I find myself bewildered as to how people can find them equally at fault when there is no justification for Sirius's actions here, other than that he felt comfortable enough to indulge himself.

snowballjane @ August 27 2003, 09:48:46 UTC

I'd say Remus is completely in the right, until he refuses to accept an apology. I know I've done that "You're not really sorry, you just want the fight to end" style of apology refusal myself often enough, but it just creates a stalemate. Sometimes you have to accept an apology even if you don't feel it's good enough. IF you want the stalemate to end.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 10:03:16 UTC

yeah, but the only time he refused an apology was when he was tired and still barely settled. He was most definitely not calm and collected yet, and so I feel it was beyond his ability to accept an apology when he'd left to clear his mind so he could tackle the issue anew. By approaching him before he'd cleared his mind, Sirius only further agitated him (not either of their faults here, though; both acted in accordance to their conflict-management abilities at that stage of the game). If Sirius were to apologize now, I'm sure the road to forgiveness would be open and waiting.

dari_brit @ August 27 2003, 14:46:37 UTC

I'm NOT sure that that's the case...or rather, that it would be if Remus wasn't feeling weak. I think we'll have to watch things throughout the year, between Remus and Sirius, and between Remus and Severus, and Remus in general, to discern whether the road to reconciliation is completely buried in rubble. For me, the icon reinstation is a sign that Remus is healing.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 15:34:37 UTC

What I mean is that Remus definitely seems open to discussion now.

eponis @ August 27 2003, 09:50:53 UTC

I'm not sure if there's a specific "missing link." Sirius has always enjoyed flirting and talking with Lucius, but he has said that he never actually slept with Lucius while married to Remus. From his perspective, then, Remus is trying to prevent him from simply having a friend that he likes and Remus doesn't.

The question, to me, is not "why couldn't Sirius keep his hands off Lucius?" but "why should Remus be able to dictate who his partner can be friends with?" I think it's totally justifiable for Remus to dislike Lucius, mistrust Lucius, and want to keep Sirius far away from him. Nevertheless, from Sirius's perspective, Remus has no more right to forbid friendship than Sirius has to make Remus become vegetarian.

In short, I don't think it's fair to call only Remus justifiable for being human. Sirius is human, too, and Remus knew when he married him that his personality was that independent and stubborn. This problem was already surfacing long before the marriage (the night of the party and the Lucius/Remus duel, for example), it was never solved to both partners' satisfaction (they usually glossed it over with "well, I love him so much anyway"), and I don't think it's that inexplicable for it to finally boil over.

Incidentally, that's some nice analysis, but as it is rather long, do you mind lj-cutting it for our friends pages?

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 10:00:26 UTC

I do accept Sirius as being human. I stated that he was unable to avoid the downard spiral after the fact, and I do not blame him for that. I agree with you on what you think Sirius thinks (that was the same as my "B" argument), but the conversation was full of flattery from the get-go, so it didn't sound like an innocent friendship. Moreover, he could've talked to ANYONE there; why he chose to cut in between Lucius and Narcissa is the mystery to me. The justification that has arisen in regards to all of Sirius's reactions is that he just needs to be loved; my post states my bewilderment in regards to how that justification can explain his actions on that fateful night.

I will be honest and simply say I don't agree with your statement that Remus has no right to say Sirius can't be with Lucius. It's the equivalent of one person inviting a practising Nazi to dinner when you've adopted a Jewish boy. It's fine to have friends, and, again, I acknowledge that, to Sirius, it's the point B that's caught him for so long, but Remus is, in my mind, justified for not wanting Lucius around after the incident in June, wherein Harry was almost killed.

As for the lj-cut... will do! It didn't look that long in the text box, so it didn't occur to me. thankies!

theantimodel @ August 27 2003, 10:31:12 UTC

Sure, knowing what we know about Lucius it's easy to make that judgment, but you should keep in mind that for Sirius to be told not to be friends with someone he goes into a defensive mode immediately. No matter what he's a pretty independent guy, and he's not used to being controlled like he saw Remus doing to him. So I don't think Sirius was really thinking about Lucius-as-a-DE when Remus was complaining. It seems far more likely that he got hung up on the first part of what Remus said which was, "I don't want you talking to him" and he missed the second half which was, "he's trying to kill Harry."

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 10:38:54 UTC

I'm perfectly aware of that. As I said, everything past the initial incident (his going over and overtly flattering/flirting with Remus) is perfectly in line with what we can expect as being inevitable reactions for his character.

Did he need to be flattering Lucius? Intervening between Lucius and Narcissa when there were others he could have been talking to? It is questions like these on which my musings were based.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 10:48:45 UTC

... and by flirting with Remus I mean flirting with Lucius.

Damn "us" names.

tabiji @ August 27 2003, 10:43:59 UTC

Yes, and as Sirius pointed out, why shouldn't he be able to talk to someone who is in his own house?

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 10:45:23 UTC

talking is one thing. tossing flattery and re-instating certain risque boundaries of their relationship is another.

theantimodel @ August 27 2003, 11:02:03 UTC

Especially since Remus was the one who invited the Malfoys.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 11:02:51 UTC

Remus had to send an open invitation. He didn't specifically invite the Malfoys.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 11:30:23 UTC

The question, to me, is not "why couldn't Sirius keep his hands off Lucius?" but "why should Remus be able to dictate who his partner can be friends with?"

Lucius Malfoy has been involved in at least three plots to kill Harry that we know of, counting canon through Book 4 and the recent attack upon the school. I think that Remus is entirely within his rights. What I find shocking and upsetting is that anyone could think that this was open to question. I mean, try to understand Sirius all you like, but at some point a line has to be drawn. Whether Sirius thought of Lucius in the Death Eater light when he began the flirtation or not, he has had it brought to his attention, and he had better start thinking of it now.

If you had a child, and your spouse was deliberately courting the attentions of someone who was actively trying to make your child dead, how would you react? If you were a child and watched a parent you adore, a parent you had spent weeks aching for, flirt with someone like that, and then, when reminded of his family, say, I came home for this?, how would you react? Likely you don't know, can't imagine, because it is unthinkable. I don't know how you recover from that. I don't know how Remus could trust Sirius again, or how Harry could, either. Also, I am not really certain that I see a reason for either of them to want to try.

I know you're not defending him here, or saying that he is in the right to do these things and think this way. I am just taking the opportunity presented with this statement, Nevertheless, from Sirius's perspective, Remus has no more right to forbid friendship than Sirius has to make Remus become vegetarian, to yell at Sirius for thinking that way, because it's the best chance I'll get to do so, and because, you know what? Sirius's perspective is wrong. Unluckily for you, it comes off as if I am yelling at you instead. Sorry sorry, and much love.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 12:24:22 UTC

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

*goidstarthesizeofmars*

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 12:26:29 UTC

Yeah, pretend you didn't see that typo. I suck, and so does LJ.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 12:24:28 UTC

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

*goldstarthesizeofmars*

eponis @ August 27 2003, 15:13:11 UTC

Much love to you too, and don't worry 'bout it. :-)

You make a lot of really good points. (Want an LJ code, btw?) Rather than disagreeing, I'd like to clarify what I said. Remus has every reason to want to keep Lucius away from his loved ones, and Sirius has, through his actions, caused Remus and Harry a lot of pain. Indeed, I think (and have said before) that Sirius should have given in on the Lucius issue.

To me, the basic problem is that Sirius and Remus have never resolved this issue, and neither of them is willing to resolve it by giving in. Maybe this is the one thing that's really important to Sirius; in that case, perhaps Remus should have thought about setting boundaries for the relationship (e.g. you two can talk, but you can't bring him to our house). On the other hand, maybe this is one particularly frustrating manifestation of Sirius's long-term desire not to compromise - and if it's that, then Remus should've known it long ago (and did) and decided either that he could live with it or that it made a long-term relationship impossible.

In all honesty, I lean toward the latter. It is inexcuseable for Sirius to maintain that kind of public relationship with a man as evil as Lucius Malfoy, and we've gotten no indication that their relationship is so special as to be paramount. (The scene from OotP where Harry first sees him after Cedric's death still gives me the creeps.) However, the path that they took - glossing the issue over, but getting vocally frustrated at each other every time it came up - ensured that it never really got resolved. I can say that Sirius ought to have given up Lucius, but I can't say that Remus didn't get into this mess in part by his own doing.

Incidentally, you also raised an interesting side issue - as Draco's friend, it must be almost even harder for Harry to read journal entries about how much he loves, admires, and wishes to follow Lucius. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 16:43:43 UTC

Honestly, I think my outrage stems from the fact that I don't view this as a failure in the role of spouse so much as a failure in the role of parent. You say that Remus should possibly have set clearer boundaries. I feel that that's an overintellectualisation of the issue. I don't think that this is something that Remus should have had to set boundaries on at all. That Sirius would entertain a relationship--public or private--with a man who is actively seeking the death of Sirius's godchild--what can I say about that? It shows a lack of character, a lack of understanding, a lack of sense and of judgement and of loyalty and of caring that I don't comprehend.

How is Harry supposed to understand this? What this says is that getting laid is more important to Sirius than Harry is. It says that someone can plot and scheme and threaten and land Harry in the hospital wing in a coma with a cracked skull and internal bleeding, and Sirius is willing to overlook that if he finds the person in question attractive enough. And it didn't happen once. It's not like it slipped Sirius's mind that Lucius was a Death Eater, and once he was reminded of the fact, he backed away in appropriate horror. It happened again and again. This isn't a question of Sirius not being ready for marriage, or being reluctant to compromise, or of Remus not making the ground rules clear enough for Sirius to understand. This is a sign that something is pathologically wrong with Sirius, and Remus and Harry are right to want to be far from it.

I certainly pity Sirius. It must hurt to finally find out that there are natural consequences for his actions, and that's too bad. But I don't think his Heathcliffing across the moors or his exile to his lonely rooms in his drafty castle begins to make up for his betrayal of Harry. I don't think that Sirius is in any position to make fine points about exactly who was named godfather in the will. I think that as much as it has to suck for him, Sirius deserves everything he's gotten, and do I ever hope that he takes this opportunity to grow up. Azkaban aside, he has to be around 40 now. It's more than time.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 16:49:53 UTC

Well said. Nonetheless, it may not be possible for him to do this himself. I'm still at a loss as to why there aren't counsellors he should be seeing after his Azkaban term. Inmates in the real world are offered such services to help them deal with their lives after imprisonment; it's unfortunate Sirius doesn't have anywhere to go to overcome his self-destructive tendencies. Remus most assuredly expected that offering love and security would fix everything, but this seems to have been the misguided belief of one in love. Sirius needs a professional, and it's terribly unfortunate that the only people who are around to help him don't know how to reach him on a level he truly understands.

Then again, maybe Harry can. The only question is: should he have to? He's just an adolescent himself, going through a lot of issues of his own. Can he be Sirius's keeper? Of course not. As such, I think the road to Sirius's recovery is going to be a slow one indeed.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 17:16:28 UTC

oh my god that is it exactly. and you know i have seen a lot of people in nraged saying that sirius is acting very in character and i just DO NOT SEE IT because ohmy god, where in the books is there any evidence at all that sirius would put sex with lucius malfoy in a higher priority than being a good godfather to harry? i mean are we even reading the same books here people? sometimes na's sirius is really on but a lot of the time i can't help thinking he's nothing like the real sirius and it's almost insulting the way he behaves sometimes especially to harry. its just disrespect and iit makes me wonder what james and lily would say to that!!!

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 17:25:44 UTC

ah....... but canon Sirius has put Harry into harm's way before. I know they don't take OotP in NA, but the fact that Sirius wanted Harry to take such huge risks in that book is still a sign that canon Sirius is not always looking out for Harry's best interests.

Moreover, canon-Sirius does seem very much like he never grew up, in that he reverts to the kind of volatile, impulsive behaviour that marked his adolescence. I think that is well mirrored in NA Sirius, who is also prone to being impulsive. If he does not act like a grown man with responsibilities to his family, it is because he was never given a chance to grow. Twelve years of his normal development were most harshly stripped from him, and so it makes sense for him to revert to the attitude he maintained at the last point in his life wherein things WERE better: his adolescent years.

It should also be noted that Sirius does not MEAN to be irresponsible; he just fails to see how his relationship to Lucius could hurt Harry. He loves Harry very much, and it is just unfortunate that he has all the impulsiveness of someone Harry's age, and thus cannot quite act like the adult Harry needs.

It is my opinion that, in this light, Sirius could not have been better represented on NA. I may dwell on JadedSirius's actions, but I love how him dearly. Kudos as always to the player.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 17:35:18 UTC

wait though, in book 5 it wasn't sirius putting harry in danger, it was sirius endangering himself. HE wanted to come and visit harry and got very hacked off when harry told him not to and then made that crack about how the risk would have made it fun for james. he was the one sending harry owls all summer about keeping his nose clean and not doing anything stupid. so sirius might be reckless with himself but he does not and would not put harry into any kind of real danger period. otherwise he wouldn't have spent all of goblet of fire trying to keep him alive.

i am sorry but i just do not see any rational explanation for sirius's behaviour. i agree with that other person that there is something deeply wrong with sirius period. you do not sleep with people who are trying to kill your loved ones, ESPECIALLY when you and everybody else knows about it!

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 17:48:15 UTC

Sirius encourages a lot. As Remus said in the third book, the makers of the map would want Harry to go out (even during the time of dementors), and they'd think it a lot of fun for him to take that kind of risk. That's precisely the point of development I see Sirius as having maintained to date.

Again, he DOES NOT SEE THE CONNECTION, and thus is not intentionally harming Harry. Of course he's got issues! We've all agreed with that! But to say that na sirius is not played well because of those issues seems rather wrong to me. Those issues are perfectly within character, and - especially because of the way he doesn't seem to hear the whole argument when he's yelled at - it makes sense that he sees Remus's qualms as rising from a lover's jealousy, because it hasn't clicked that a relationship with Lucius could harm Harry. How could it, when all he hears from the lectures is that he's an idiot and that Remus is mad at him? No one's sat down and explained it to him (or, if Remus did in the owl, it took a while for discussion to truly begin), and so, in his mind, this is a lovers spat.

This Sirius would not leave Harry's bedside after the incident and cried while singing You Are My Sunshine to him. There is no way he doesn't care enough about Harry. He's just so trapped in the attitude he maintained as an adolescent -he's retreated to it, if you will - that he has all the impulsiveness of a rebellious teen, and none of the foresight necessary to be a real adult.

I stand firmly behind JS, even though I am often critical of Sirius's actions. It is my opinion that if he could be better played, it'd be exceedingly hard to pull off. His issues have been well presented here, and I look forward to another year of his stunning character.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 17:50:38 UTC

Sirius encourages a lot. As Remus said in the third book, the makers of the map would want Harry to go out, and they'd think it a lot of fun for him to take that kind of risk. That's precisely the point of development I see Sirius as having maintained to date.

Again, he DOES NOT SEE THE CONNECTION, and thus is not intentionally harming Harry. Of course he's got issues! We've all agreed with that! But to say that na sirius is not played well because of those issues seems rather wrong to me. Those issues are perfectly within character, and - especially because of the way he doesn't seem to hear the whole argument when he's yelled at - it makes sense that he sees Remus's qualms as rising from a lover's jealousy, because it hasn't clicked that a relationship with Lucius could harm Harry. How could it, when all he hears from the lectures is that he's an idiot and that Remus is mad at him? No one's sat down and explained it to him (or, if Remus did in the owl, it took a while for discussion to truly begin), and so, in his mind, this is a lovers spat. This Sirius would not leave Harry's bedside after the incident and cried while singing You Are My Sunshine to him. There is no way he doesn't care enough about Harry. He's just so trapped in the attitude he maintained as an adolescent -he's retreated to it, if you will - that he has all the impulsiveness of a rebellious teen, and none of the foresight necessary of a real adult.

I stand firmly behind JS, even though I am often critical of Sirius's actions. It is my opinion that if he could be better played, it'd be exceedingly hard to pull off. His issues have been well presented here, and I look forward to another year of his stunning character.

sistermagpie @ August 27 2003, 19:16:18 UTC

Honestly, I think my outrage stems from the fact that I don't view this as a failure in the role of spouse so much as a failure in the role of parent.

I totally agree. And it's not like Remus hasn't said this flat out: He tried to kill Harry. Over and over.

But I do think, still, that it's reasonable to remember that this is an ongoing issue. Sirius' relationship with Lucius didn't change. With the attack on Hogwarts Remus had ever reason to be all the more angry about it, but I can also see Sirius seeing this as Remus promising to love him forever and then he comes home, does his usual flirting with Lucius and gets, "Right! You're a slut! I'm out of here!"

As totally justified as Remus (and Harry, of course, but he's a separate issue) is to consider a relationship with Lucius reason to leave Sirius, Sirius is also correct in seeing that who he was before the marriage is now unacceptable and the marriage vows are now off. I think Sirius knows that he did this, but he may also tell himself this is an honest demonstration of who he is.

I totally understand what you're saying, too, about Remus and Harry wanting to be far from whatever self-destructive impulses Sirius has, but at the same time how many families dissolve their ties to a person so quickly? Harry I can understand since he is the person personally wronged here, but Remus is more problematic. It's not Remus' responsibility to "fix" Sirius but again, this is the guy he married. Given that fact, I think Sirius might be feeling like Remus didn't want him personally so much as a family because it's him that suddenly became expendable.

sistermagpie @ August 27 2003, 10:08:03 UTC

I don't think I'd ever say that Sirius did what he did because he just wanted to be loved, because it doesn't seem like he'd go to Lucius for that. Sirius, more than anyone, knows that sex does not equal love.

I feel like I don't have enough information to really know why he did what he did, but the thing that stands out for me is that Sirius did seem on some level to expect to be rejected and worked to that end himself. I think he was being self-destructive rather than reaching out for something. I wouldn't justify his actions because there's nothing right about flirting with Lucius who wants to kill Harry. But his motivations aren't necessarily purely selfish or hurtful.

The thing with Remus we must always remember is that he is the person who is most open about how he is feeling. Like Narcissa in her situation, Remus posts apologies about not being the person the other person needed, how much he adores the other person. Now, I'm not saying Remus is lying when he posts these things, but I do think he hates to be the bad guy and instinctively presents himself otherwise. He's more comfortable seeing himself as just doing things for others, even when he's acting purely in his own self-interest (something everyone does sometimes--it's a good thing). I feel like in this family you've got 3 people who all have different ways they communicate love and that always causes problems.

Remus' nature gives us a good idea of how he sees the situation whereas Sirius and Harry too are harder to read. I can't say Remus was wrong in his handling of the situation at all, first because I don't know what the situation was beyond Sirius flirting with Lucius for reasons only known to Sirius and second because as you say this is his character. This is how he responds to things. We can't say he *should* have reacted a different way because we can't change how we react. His reaction was valid.

So I would never say Remus was at fault in this situation. He's not responsible for Sirius' actions, obviously. But still, we don't know how precariously balanced things were to make it all fall apart so quickly. For instance, during the summer we got updates on how much Remus missed Sirius, he hung out with Harry and filled his posts to the brim with how much he loved the boy, how proud he was of him, etc. Sirius was god knows where, going through who knows what kind of stress. It can be difficult returning to the homefront, just slipping back into a domestic scene. Does Remus know anything of what happened during that time? Or was Sirius just sort of hustled into happy husband mode and then the fight happened? We have no idea what his state of mind might have been. He may not have felt he'd returned to a loving, caring home at all--and that might not have been Remus' fault, but might still have been how Sirius felt.

I just keep coming back to Sirius line, "I rushed home for this?" I can imagine him feeling like he just didn't fit Remus' idea of how his husband should be or something, which doesn't excuse his flirting with the man who tried to kill Harry, but still I see a pattern. At both parties Sirius' flirting with Lucius sent Remus to another man. The first time he actually kissed somebody. This time it was just Snape but even at the time, on that very first night, there were Snape/Lupin vibes. I can imagine Sirius looking at Remus now and just thinking, "Well, now you've got Snape, you've got Harry, you've got a puppy. What do you need me for?" As much as I do believe Remus was hurt by this he did move on to a new life more quickly. (I'm not accusing him of sleeping with Snape now or anything, but I am surprised how easily Snape became caregiver.) Is there truth to Sirius feeling that way if he does? Maybe somewhat, just in that Remus is easy to love in ways he isn't. He and Remus are perhaps looking for different things.

theantimodel @ August 27 2003, 10:24:52 UTC

Word to that.

Also, one thing that I think we should be keeping in mind is that no one in this game is going to give us all of the information. Just as Sirius gets snippy and goes into full avoiding mode, Remus mostly doesn't talk about the truly personal stuff on his journal. As we saw with Narcissa, they both preferred to move their conversation to owl post and in person conversations. So it's hard to say that we really know everything that happened. Like you said sistermagpie we don't really know if there was anything going on around or before the flirting incident, because for everything to fall apart to quickly and seemingly thoroughly suggests that there was more wrong than just what we saw.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to the story, and I really like your speculation about Sirius' journey and his state of mind. Whatever his mission was it is certainly possible that it was pretty tough and most likely extremely stressful. So maybe it wasn't so easy for him to go right back into loving and doting husband mode. At this point I think the only thing that can be said concretely about the break up was that there were a lot of serious miscommunications. I'm not sure if we can really place blame on either party to the extent that some people might like, especially since we don't really know all the details.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 10:33:03 UTC

I merely attempted to clarify why I find it perplexing that the general sentiments that have surfaced as of late are a) that Sirius didn't want to be lonely and b) that Sirius and Remus were equally at fault. It was to these I was commenting.

I too really like sistermagpie's suggestion of what Sirius might have been thinking when he got home. However, I read the "I rushed home for this?" line to indicate that he expected things to be perfect and welcoming upon his return, so he would have to put no effort into maintaining the happiness in his household. He voiced similar sentiments upon his return from Remus after the attempted apology (something to the effect of "well, that was a waste of my time"). It seems he's rather impatient with anything being wrong in his family life, and expects it to be a constant. When it isn't, he's angry, and wreaks vengeance (and drowns his loneliness! two birds;one stone!) by going elsewhere. His impatience when greeted with anything by a Hallmark-esque family life is truly intriguing, and rather bewildering, too. It seems like he feels family is almost a game, and gets tired of playing it when he starts to lose.

sistermagpie @ August 27 2003, 11:04:37 UTC

That's interesting because I had thought a similar thing about Remus. Not that he got tired of family or thought it was a game, but that he took a very all-or-nothing attitude. When things went wrong he moved out, deleted all his icons, deleted Harry as his oddson. It made it seem sort of fantasy-or-nothing to me. I didn't get that just from his posts post-breakup but the way he posted about his family all along, always describing these idyllic family scenes, much like the one he just posted about Harry. I mean, this wasn't a new thing with Lucius (it was different in that Hogwarts had just been attacked, of course, but Sirius' behavior was on-going).

I hadn't thought of Sirius expecting a perfect family waiting for him, to be honest, because I never felt like Sirius was into that anyway--the image of a family, that is. I took his comment about rushing home to be referring more to the way he felt he was immediately on the defensive and accused of things, "in the doghouse" as it were. I tend to think of Sirius as being overly sensitive about things like that because of how quickly he was thrown into Azkaban with no trial, with so many people suddenly acting like, "Oh, we should have KNOWN it was him..." This doesn't erase the fact that Sirius was flirting with Lucius, of course. Remus was angry at him for something perfectly reasonable!

Somehow, though, I always get the impression this is somehow at the heart of things, like Sirius needs to know people don't just want him because they think they can make him better so he pushes. Not unlike ps at times and I think both of them are maybe driven by the same things. As to why he specifically flirted with Lucius well, that's a big puzzle. Maybe he felt stressed and Lucius was familiar? Or makes him feel somehow in control? I don't think Sirius particularly likes casual flings or getting drunk but he understands them. Maybe he doesn't feel like he deserves anything better? I don't know. They're Sirius' problems, though, whatever they are. Remus didn't give them to him.

blue_lightning @ August 27 2003, 11:17:24 UTC

You're right; that is interesting. You say you never saw that possibility in regards to Sirius's view of family, and I must say I've never thought of the all-or-nothing Remus myself.

If we're both right in that each has a very rigid way of approaching family (which might explain why the BOTH of them fell right into the mad rush of family life we witnessed earlier this summer) then it may very well support the possibility that they were doomed from the get-go. Without any grounded guardians who can put up with the good times and the bad, without creating more bad times themselves, their family life really is much like a half-hearted farce. But perhaps, after all that's happened, they'll learn from this, and if they do, they may have a chance at reuniting under different terms, wherein they'll both agree to put more effort into serious matters, and not just into the flim-flam constructs of happy memories that seem to have been built through july like a house of cards.

o_o that last sentence was very purple. my apologies. I hope you understand what I mean anyway.

sistermagpie @ August 27 2003, 11:28:25 UTC

Yes I do!:-) I definitely didn't mean that Remus alone was into the happy-family thing, just that he posted about it a particular way. Sirius, on his side, did something similar only it was sexual--there were always posts where he'd make it clear he and Remus were about to go to bed (that was the two of them, really). I felt like all of them were working very hard for something they felt like was beyond their reach or something. Sirius was taking Harry on trips like Fun!Dad or big brother, Remus was being domestic, Harry was trying out all these kid things like Euro Disney and tickle fights and getting a puppy.

Then all three of them seemed to sort of burst everything together. They all almost seemed to feel like, "We were stupid to ever thing we could ever have this! We're just not fated to ever have this!" Not just Remus, but any means. I just think of him most identified with the family around the fire stuff.

You can't help but compare it to the other families that suffered breakdowns. The Weasleys banded together in the Burrow and cooked. Molly's still in the shed but...it's just the shed. If she was needed in the house she'd be there like a shot. Even Draco demonstrates a more stable family life, stubbornly going home and waiting for his mother's "dramatics" to blow over. In both cases the kids see Mom as being not where she's obviously supposed to be: home. With Harry's family it's all so new it's like it's not really home. It's EMPTY now. None of them want to live in it.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 12:51:33 UTC

It seems he's rather impatient with anything being wrong in his family life, and expects it to be a constant. When it isn't, he's angry, and wreaks vengeance (and drowns his loneliness! two birds;one stone!) by going elsewhere. His impatience when greeted with anything by a Hallmark-esque family life is truly intriguing, and rather bewildering, too. It seems like he feels family is almost a game, and gets tired of playing it when he starts to lose.

I disagree. It's the fact that he really has no clue what a family life is supposed to be. He feels, in his own mind (and I think he was a champion of justifying his own actions, even before Azkaban) that he's doing the best he can, and nothing is ever good enough for Remus. I am in no way saying he's right, but he is definitely self-destructive and so far everything is going as he feared it might.

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 12:36:09 UTC

*moregoldstars*

Anonymous @ August 27 2003, 12:47:54 UTC

goldbloodystar. Thank you.

dari_brit @ August 27 2003, 14:57:41 UTC

You are the most brilliant of magpies! I love the insight about Sirius's self-destructive tendencies. Even in canon, Sirius is the sort of person who pushes the envelope, occasionally to his downfall. Years in Azkaban may have darkened that tendency even further-- a need to push the boundaries, to test the limits of the world. In this case, he seems to have an addiction to testing the parameters of happy family life, and Lucius was an all too willing vehicle.

In the case of both men, I think that the problems are rooted in insecurities about lasting love.

luna_lg @ August 28 2003, 10:11:14 UTC

In the case of both men, I think that the problems are rooted in insecurities about lasting love.

That is very possible. After all, Remus practically grew up as a werewolf, a creature that is pretty much hated by the wizarding community. Poor guy just wants someone to love that will love him for ALL of him and not just his human side.

And Sirius, as everyone above me have pointed out, he lost the prime of his life in Azkaban, so he has no idea how to handle a very serious, long-time relationship. Not to mention that he still acts like a 18-year-old graduate of Hogwarts, and pushes the limits to the point of self-destruction...

...Man, I never realized that those two chaps were soooo messed up like that. >< meep!