onthehillside @ September 10 2003, 18:39:54 UTC

Looks like someone had a bad day.
Someone needs to make this kid smile.

bookofjude @ September 10 2003, 18:56:08 UTC

I can think of the perfect person... :-?

onthehillside @ September 10 2003, 19:05:55 UTC

I don't really care about specifics, I just think that Draco needs some happy on his life. Things haven't been going well for him as of late, and he seems to be really beat up about it.

onthehillside @ September 10 2003, 19:11:59 UTC

that's in not on

bsafemydeers @ September 10 2003, 18:56:48 UTC

Hm. You know, perhaps it's just me, but that line in his dream about thoughtfully turning down joining the vampire infused a bit of optimism into my views about his future. Huzzah.

bookofjude @ September 10 2003, 19:10:25 UTC

Lucius dressed up as a vampire?

bsafemydeers @ September 10 2003, 19:25:34 UTC

Hmm. That's new to me, but I am new too!

Verrry interesting, though.

What was also interesting was the Gryffindors underwater and Snape's dungeons being flooded. Floods are usually typical, in dreams, of representing huge things. Emotion, loss of security, the loss and rebuilding of certain ideas or parts of one's life, destruction and rebuilding.

My crackpot analysis would point to the location of the flood, in Snape's dungeon being more than coincidence, as Snape is an ex-DE. Also, the Gryffindors are under the water, immersed in the flood, seemingly going along with it. Draco, however, doesn't appear to be as willing to be swallowed by the flood. Perhaps this is the subconcious manifestation of the struggle with Picking Sides, and the optimist in me wants to say that the DE's are not winning. Especially with his arrival in a Gryffindor oriented place (Harry's flat?) shortly after refusing the vamp.

Ooh, look, my first over-analysis! I only wish I remembered what reeds represented.

bookofjude @ September 10 2003, 19:31:56 UTC

New is good. It's interesting, really, because I thought that the vampire could be the personification of the "Dark Side", for example, Death Eaters, and if they set him a task that had to be completed and if he did it well they would make him "one of them", as it were. My first thought when I read it was that "vampire" was just a euphemism for "Death Eater", but that's my over-analysis. :)

The flood theory is interesting. Perhaps it's "going with the flow (of water)" as it were?

bsafemydeers @ September 10 2003, 19:47:49 UTC

Heh. We thought much the same about the vampire itself, especially down to the task completion bit. Undead, Death Eater, interesting things about sucking the life from people.

I've tried looking up reeds and have gotten only "unstable friendships", and "emotional growth". Both of which work, but I'm not happy with the sources.

The flood is very interesting in itself. Also, I would think the Gryffindors far more likely to stay in the midst of the flood and die for their ideals (if the flood represented the heavy course of fate, so to speak) than say, the Slytherins.

bookofjude @ September 10 2003, 19:56:51 UTC

Yes, it would make a lot of sense that the Gryffindors would be more accepting of their "fate" to become "good" people as it were, than a Slytherin who might have doubts about the course of action that they want to follow.

Does the Acromantula have some significance though, is really the question, or is it a euphemism too?

bsafemydeers @ September 10 2003, 20:05:33 UTC

Actually, I looked up spider and was highly amused to read in one dictionary that to dream of killing a spider meant a quarrel with one's sweetheart. XD

Wasn't a spider the creature tortured in DADA class in the fourth book? Or was that just the Gryffindor class that saw that? Other than that, I'm inclined to dismiss it.

noirenails @ September 11 2003, 00:56:03 UTC

dream of killing a spider meant a quarrel with one's sweetheart
Oh, how sweet. Even in his dreams...

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 19:38:12 UTC

Ack. Complete coincidence. Nothing to do with it at all.

saffronlie @ September 10 2003, 21:58:49 UTC

I once wrote a Lestat/Draco, so the line reminded me of that. In it, Draco turned down vampirism too. Hee.

:::insert thoughtful and intelligent analysis of vampire symbolism here, to prove am not rabid nrager with big thing for crossing fictional blondes.:::

bsafemydeers @ September 10 2003, 22:08:49 UTC

I think it means Kirstin Dunst is a Death Eater.

With wee blond curls.

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 18:59:11 UTC

"Nott kept trying to corner Crabbe, Goyle and me at breakfast"

Could it be something related to the DE issue?

tabiji @ September 10 2003, 19:24:06 UTC

Yea...am wondering that too.

At first I wanted to see the flood as meaning something sexual, but thinking about it, it's more likely about Draco feeling like he's in over his head with the life choices that he's facing.

flyingcarpet @ September 10 2003, 19:17:16 UTC

I love how Draco's supporting the Cannons in his own little way:

The Tornadoes are in Chudley this evening, along with Potter and a couple of Weasleys. I personally feel that the Tornadoes are overrated.

Sorry for the duplicate comment-- I think this is the right place for it. :)

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 19:42:22 UTC

Since this a recent post, just thought I'd mention that Seamus and Draco are discussing shopping and Harry's sleeping habits here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/seamus_f/6961.html).

sistermagpie @ September 10 2003, 20:04:45 UTC

Draco still sounds a little...raw, somehow. Nervous? Anxious? Afraid of something? I wondered if he didn't much want to go to sleep and have another dream, or if he wants to go to sleep to stop thinking.

sistermagpie @ September 10 2003, 19:54:51 UTC

I love dream analysis in real life. I'll probably make a mess of Draco's, but what the heck. I think it's definitely about DEs.

Let's see, the dungeons are flooded and you have to walk across books to get to benches. Maybe books represent school, which has kept Draco out of the water/muck until now. The Gryffindors are underwater...perhaps because they're already involved or because they're the ones that would be "washed away" if Voldemort had his way?

Then Draco is someone else, talking to himself. Maybe he's reasoning with himself in a way, like looking at himself as an outsider? Or is he perhaps in Harry's place here--they're in Potions where he would see Harry. So he could be seeing himself as Harry would see him, and he's "taking Harry's pov" in this dream.

He is quite handsome. Well, he just is.

Then they're going through reeds, so they're like in a swamp? Or the reeds are like a forest? And a vampire is there. We know it's a dream because Draco isn't afraid. Everybody's afraid and screaming. Usually Draco is the one doing that and he sees himself as being intelligent for avoiding danger. This time, though, it's him who doesn't see the danger right in front of him. Or maybe he's just getting the chance to be the hero.

But then the vampire puts him under a trance and tells him to kill...what's an Accromantula? A kind of spider? Whatever it is, the idea that Draco's being put under a trance to kill is pretty frightening. As a "reward" he gets to be a vampire too. That seems a pretty good parallel to the whole DE thing. Lucius has had him under a trance. If he takes action for Voldemort he becomes a DE. Vampires drink blood/eat death.

It could be a nice version of life with Lucius; he's so far been willing to be put under a trance and has perhaps done things because of it, but when it comes to being a DE he declines. He wants to wash the muck off of him but gets lost...well, if he really did try to get free of that whole influence he would be lost, wouldn't he? And he'd end up surrounded by Weasley and Granger. Interesting that Harry's picture isn't there, but I think in this dream Draco is Harry. Not literally. More like he will have to become Harry (the hero) to get out of this.

If any of this is on track I think it's great that Draco's unconscious hasn't set this up as him "choosing Harry." It's all about him. Harry's obviously present as represented by his two best friends, but he's not protecting Draco or offering him anything. Draco's alone in this. It's about getting out of the swamp, not getting to Harry.

Then Draco becomes quite interested in ghosts. It made me wonder if he wasn't starting to worry about what he would become (the pictures of Ron and Hermione also made me think of being memorialized). He wouldn't want to end up like Peeves, is anxious enough to talk to the Bloody Baron and suggests Binns might have been hoping he'd become a ghost too. First he's going to be a vampire, then he's going to be a ghost. In both cases we're talking about not having a real life, being undead or the dead. Walking around but not living. (He was already interested in death before when his grandmother died.)

Meanwhile, there's the real danger, Nott, trying to talk to Crabbe, Goyle and him. Remember that owl that came from Nott and dropped its letter in the bath? I'm beginning to wonder if Draco didn't drop it in there on purpose so he wouldn't have to read it. I think he's trying to put off whatever it is he knows Nott's going to talk about.

It ends with life--and by life I mean Quidditch, Harry and Ron. And he disses the Tornadoes. I love potterstinks!

bookofjude @ September 10 2003, 19:59:01 UTC

what's an Accromantula? A kind of spider?

Acromantula, say Aragog from CoS, the spider that Hagrid raised?

zionsstarfish @ September 10 2003, 22:12:46 UTC

I think it's definitely about DEs.

You said it! I like your idea about Draco having a conversation with himself, maybe trying to see some things from someone else's point of view.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I've noticed that Draco's been sleeping a lot. He's been falling asleep in class (somehow I don't think it's just because Professor Bins is that boring) and he's remarked several times on how much he's sleeping (usually as an off-hand comment). I wonder if it has anything to do with Harry's lack of sleep.

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 20:04:04 UTC

Draco's so cute. Even when talking with Seamus, he insists on talking about Potter.

I like Draco/Seamus interaction very much. It's so nice to see Draco being capable of having civil and amiable conversations with others outside Slytherin (besides Potter, of course).

sistermagpie @ September 10 2003, 20:36:56 UTC

As I continue to spam this thread...Draco seems really anxious about Harry. He's waiting up and listening to the game and just asked Seamus if he was back yet. It seems awfully...almost desperate for Draco to flat out ask Seamus if he's back without disguising it with an insult or anything. Could he be worried about something happening to Harry at the game? Or want to speak with him about something? Maybe it's the color scheme in Seamus' journal but I just feel so edgy reading Draco's posts. It reminds me of when I was a kid and my parents would go out to dinner. I'd sometimes get paranoid and not sleep until I heard them come in, or if I fell asleep and woke up in the middle of the night I'd sneak into their room to check they were there. Haven't thought about that in a long time.

How does his player manage to be such a good actor through typing???

darklites @ September 11 2003, 03:45:35 UTC

It reminds me of when I was a kid and my parents would go out to dinner. I'd sometimes get paranoid and not sleep until I heard them come in

Oh God, I remember this! I remember when my parents would go out at night, and I'd get terribly paranoid as the night moved along, and start irrationally thinking that something must have happened to them if they were slightly late. I'd stay up and fret about things that could happen and work myself up into a right state, and only would relax when they came home. Ah, the days where mobile phones weren't omnipresent.

But yes, that was a bit OT. Draco does sound like something's up, and I felt like part of the reason he kept talking to Seamus is that he wanted a distraction from the wait for Harry to come back? He was doing elementary transfiguration before that. Their conversation in that thread is always about Harry in some part, was he trying to reassure himself by talking about Harry? And does this have anything to do with his dream (did it shake him up)? Hm.

black_dog @ September 11 2003, 10:27:21 UTC

Yeah, this may the missing jigsaw puzzle that makes sense of Draco's reaction, I think. The first time I read through the comments, I thought he must be really missing Harry, but it seemed almost over the top. On the other hand if he has reason to be worried then it all falls into place.

I'm fascinated by a bunch of signs of Draco's nervousness: He's obsessively talking about Harry. He's doing elementary transfigurations -- and doing it wrong! He's listening to a team he hates on the radio and is determined to listen until the end -- as though the match were a logical place for something bad to happen and he couldn't feel safe until it was over and he can go to bed. He asks Seamus that very odd question about whether Harry is back yet. And he disappears from the conversation the moment Harry is back safe -- leaving Seamus' "good night" hanging.

Most intriguing of all, I thought, is the way he refuses to rise to repeated friendly baiting by Seamus. Seamus wonders about Draco waking Harry up, talks about how Harry joining them on the shopping trip would amount to "coming into his noble birthright as a gay man," and Draco is only half-heartedly defensive -- pro forma denials about waking Harry up, and a remark about living in a different part of the castle. There's no exaggerated discomfort, no deflection of the issue, no "shapely girlfriend" icon.

It's not just sexual stuff either -- I can't believe he let pass Seamus comments about a cartoon being "little-boy like," about not being able to take PS' remarks seriously, and his final "You do that, cowboy." Draco's not being totally unresponsive, but it's like he's on sociable autopilot, just riffing off the most obvious and easy points Seamus makes without really being hyper-alert. He's preoccupied with something.

sistermagpie @ September 11 2003, 11:41:06 UTC

Yes! That's exactly what I'm getting--that he's preoccupied. Seamus gets pretty bold here, telling Draco to admit he thinks the Cannons icon is adorable and all that, but Draco doesn't seem to be reacting the way he would be. "No, I really don't," is so direct and, you know, dismissive. Where's the outsized horror and reference to mashed carrots?

I wonder if Voldemort etc. has suddenly become all too real for him in ways he never wanted it to and he's just less sure of everything. Harry did almost die at the end of last term, and then Draco had a meeting with DEs. His dream seems to be all about DEs. Nott is suddenly a prominent figure in his world no matter how much Draco wants to ignore him. (I realized today I associated the reeds in Draco's dream with Nott as well, because JKR describes him as weedy.) Draco may have developed a free-floating anxiety about Harry (among other things). Perhaps he was nervous that first day on the train when Harry didn't show up and his rantings in his journal about it were blowing off steam at his fear.

I'm really wondering about the sleep thing too. Is he sleeping a lot or not sleeping at night? He ended his conversation with Narcissa by saying he was going to sleep just as he'd confirmed he was going to have to make his own decisions independently. He said he was tired in his conversation with Harry and then went to meet him (are they staying up late again, or did they just meet briefly)? He ended his earlier post (made during the day) by saying he was going to celebrate the wonder that was him by going to sleep. He tells Seamus he's going to sleep after the Quidditch game. He is woken early by Peeves but then manages to sleep all through lunch in HoM. Is he not sleeping or is he oversleeping like someone who is depressed/under a lot of mental strain?

PS' posts are just filling me with vague dread and worry, though they're funny as ever. It's like they're full of nervous energy but sometimes he seems kind of exhausted too.

black_dog @ September 11 2003, 17:28:07 UTC

I've been worried about the sleep stuff as well -- ever since PS' remark a week or so back about getting his "regular ten hours." Depression was my first thought. I'm trying to get inside PS' head using non obvious clues as well as the ones the game has chosen to emphasize.

1. We know he's recently had a long exchange of letters with his mother, which suggests that he is taking at least some of what she said seriously, whether or not he fully accepts it. We know the burden of all her issues is Lucius -- she can no longer live with him, and she accuses him of in effect damaging Draco.

2. If my memory of the timing is correct, Lucius' brandy-soaked maunderings on Narcissa's journal corresponded with at least part of the time Draco was at home enjoying some quality father-son time. So in addition to however he felt about the DE luncheon, PS has recently seen his father at his worst and weakest.

3. Draco knows that Harry's family fell apart over his own father, and the lesson was unavoidable because this was one of the main reasons he couldn't see Harry in the latter part of the summer. I imagine some of PS' angst toward Harry we were trying to pin down earlier this month might have been worry over whether Harry would hold this against him. Presumably, Harry has not, and that must have even further deepened their friendship. Increasingly, I suspect he's seeing Harry and Lucius as representing -- whether literally or symbolically -- increasingly stark choices about which direction his life is going to take.

4. It's impossible for Draco to be in further denial over Lucius' sexuality, which must make him very angry about whatever caused him to internalize an aversion to his own inclinations.

One thing after another keeps pointing back to Lucius. PS made the choice he felt he had to make in Italy, but since then, over and over, he's had reason to see his father in a very unflattering, even repulsive light. And he's had reason to see his father as an obstacle to his prospects for normal friendships and a happy life. He's got to be going through some excruciatingly painful self-examination, focused fundamentally on what his father means to him.

I'm wary of dream interpretations but in honor of yours, I'll throw an alternative back to you.

*clears throat*

I would suggest that Draco at the start of the dream is standing inside Lucius' head. The walk across the potions lab resonates with general thoughts about life's "winners and losers," the winners walking on water, showing disregard for values and culture (the books) to get what they want, the losers simply passively drowning. Draco sees himself through Lucius' eyes, realizes with some surprise that he's handsome -- he really is worth more than Lucius' actions have led him to believe. In the remainder of the dream, Draco is in is own persona. The marsh is neither water nor solid ground, Draco feels neither the clarity nor the brutal sense of entitlement that his father does.

I agree with your interpretation of the vampire as Lucius/Voldemort/the DE's. Draco does not join in the screaming, does not feel threatened -- he seems to start out taking it for granted, not particularly reflectively, that they are on the same side. But when they meet, he recoils from the prospect of becoming a vampire and feels afterward that he must shower off the filth of the encounter (shades of McNair's animal stench?). I love the final glimpse of the corridor with Weasley and Granger pictures -- Draco wonders if he's going soft, if all this self doubt means he's turning into a sap. It's a nice final twist.

Well, as I say that is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it does deepen the theme of Draco at a crossroads, Draco re-examining his what his father means to him. Certainly he has plenty of reason to be feeling depressed.

Back over to you!

sistermagpie @ September 11 2003, 18:14:39 UTC

You do realize I do this with real dreams too, right? ;-) I have a friend who feels anything anyone says in a dream is important if you remember it. I had really wanted to know what Draco said to himself in the dream and happily, Ernie asked for me! (It's so hard to remember this isn't a "real" dream but fiction!)

We should probably be careful not to discount Snape here--and btw, this is a nice companion to the dreams about Snape and Draco Harry has in canon. It's Snape's classroom where this starts and when Draco asks himself if they may "keep the texts" he replies that "Snape won't mind." It seems nice that Snape is the reassuring answer here. Snape's a teacher in the dream and the texts could either refer to the books that keep him out of the water or the things he needs to learn (like he can keep the books until he figures it out).

I guess a lot depends on how he sees Lucius. Is he disturbed at the idea that he's suddenly seeing Lucius as weak or hurtful? Or is Draco only afraid of what he has to do to be in his world?

I do love the nightmarish vision of Draco getting lost and finding himself in a corridor full of Weasley and Granger. I definitely think he sees his choices as personified by Harry and his gang on one side and Lucius and the DEs on the other, though Snape may be the middle way he's forgotten.

I hadn't thought at all about how he felt about the Sirius/Lucius thing but it does make him and Harry even more closely tied.

It seems hard to believe that if the DEs were planning anything they would have let anything slip to Draco, but if Draco is now aware of these men walking around in broad daylight wanting Harry dead it would make sense he'd be nervous thinking of Harry in a crowd of strangers. I also would love to know what Nott is trying to talk to him about. It sounds like Draco doesn't want to know a lot of things and the sleeping could be an escape from that. After all, he hates all sorts of mind-altering substances, but seems to enjoy sleep. That might sound strange, but that's the way I am with sleep. Harry said Draco tended to avoid talking about difficult things when they were together, so he might be more and more in his own head now.

Anonymous @ September 11 2003, 18:28:33 UTC

I hadn't thought at all about how he felt about the Sirius/Lucius thing but it does make him and Harry even more closely tied.

i thought draco didn't know - narcissa said she didn't tell him and the way he sided with his father saying narcissa must have done something pretty much implied to me that he didn't know what it was and was just taking a wild stab.

jacay @ September 11 2003, 18:35:27 UTC

Well, yes, but there was an awful lot of stuff in entries. Maybe he doesn't check journals as rabidly as we do, but I think there were things said that no one could really ignore. He could very easily have read in Remus's or Sirius's or someone's journal about what actually happened and figured it out for himself.

Anonymous @ September 11 2003, 18:37:30 UTC

but why would he want to know? if he even had the slightest inkling lucius was doing something like that, wouldn't he do his best to not know?

jacay @ September 11 2003, 18:40:07 UTC

But with so much of this being written about, he would have to make a conscious effort NOT to find out, and even then he would still probably be picking up enough information to figure things out for himself.

Anonymous @ September 11 2003, 18:44:47 UTC

i don't think all that much has been written about it at all. we're assuming sirius and lucius slept together because of a post that said "current mood: fucked" and harry leaving. draco won't draw those kind of conclusions, and i doubt he really cares about remus' emotional entries. i just don't see why he'd have seen any of their entries as having to do with him whatsoever.

sistermagpie @ September 11 2003, 19:32:11 UTC

I see where you're going with this and you do have a point. Draco is a king of denial when it comes to uncomfortable things about his parents. He was annoyed at them in Italy for fighting publically in the journals.

I feel like he must know on some level that there's a connection between Sirius and Lucius though--he talked about Sirius "bothering" Lucius on the journals when Lucius was flirting with him, so I think there's evidence that he does know about the connection. He would read his parents' journals, especially Lucius.' What exactly he thinks happened between them is anybody's guess. Not that many kids probably want to speculate about their mother walking in on their father in bed with the godfather of a kid in their class, after all!

black_dog @ September 12 2003, 06:11:51 UTC

Cool that you do it with real dreams, too! I didn't know that. Have you found that your interpretations were validated? I will say that, at least in the case of literary dreams, it does seem reasonable to attribute a definite symbolic intention on the part of the writer. Provided, of course, we can penetrate all the layers of playfulness that might be present.

I still feel there's something Lucius-like about the opening scenes of the dream, perhaps Draco in a mode of identifying closely with Lucius? You make an interesting point that Snape is implicitly present despite his actual absence -- Potions is the place, after all, where Draco gets the strongest sense of affirmation from someone, other than his father, that he respects. "Keeping the texts" is a rich image, too -- salvaging something from the wreckage? disassociating himself from the kind of person who would use books as stepping stones in a flooded room? staking a claim to the identity he first forged under Snape's approving eye?

On the Draco-as-DE issue I have nothing except a visceral sense that Draco is too well rounded a personality, too capable of strong connections with people, to fall into DE sociopathy. On the other hand, this is a new thing -- a year ago I might have given a different answer. It's easy to forget how tremendously PS has blossomed over the past year, that he's made meaningful friendships for the first time, perhaps fallen half-in-love.

If there's any remaining divided loyalty, I have to think it's because he can't imagine his father at the level of an Avery or a MacNair, he has to believe there's more to the DE stuff than these reeking trolls. Which just may give Lucius leverage enough, to break Draco enough, to reduce him to a state fit for the DE's. But I think he'd have to be literally broken, at this point, to fall back into that kind of susceptibility. Which isn't to say that a final break from his father isn't still beyond him, won't still be difficult and painful.

Eh, a coffee-less post, I'm afraid, and not very shiny. I'll try to think more and do better.

sistermagpie @ September 12 2003, 10:42:09 UTC

Shiny enough for me! I do do this with real dreams...what's cool is that if you pay attention to the dreams you remember you start to notice patterns in your own dream style. I have a good friend who's also into this (and had a therapist who said anything somebody says to you in a dream is probably important) and we like to go over interesting ones together. We have totally different dream styles but it's surprising how much you can figure out about what you're trying to tell yourself in a dream. And the same issues, fears etc. come up all the time in different forms.:)

Since I do think Lucius and Harry are easy representations of DE & non-DE choices, I suspect they're both "present" throughout the dreams without having to be there in person. (It is also said that when we dream we are everyone in our dreams.) We've always been told how much Lucius looks like Draco so it would make sense for him to show up as him in a dream. If the second "handsome" Draco is Lucius, Draco could be asking for reassurance and Lucius is giving it to him, telling him he doesn't have to give everything up if he joins the DEs, which isn't true.

I totally agree with you on it being hard to imagine Draco as a DE at this point. There is a difference between believing in pureblood superiority and being the type who could be a DE. Oooh, that makes for a nice little interp. Draco wants to keep his texts--i.e., the worldview he's learned and he's reassured that Snape won't mind, i.e. that Snape has continued to basically be Slytherin despite not being a DE. I'm not sure what all Draco knows about Snape's past, but I think he'd know he wasn't a DE now at least.

Draco doesn't seem impressed by the DEs themselves, but Lucius might be able to get him to do something that would hurt Harry without him fully agreeing to it. In the dream he's put under a spell and told to kill. It seems like Draco declines not just to become a vampire but to do the killing, so he has retained free will under his "spell." Also, he declines "thoughtfully."

I do wonder about Draco's Quidditch anxiety. Was he just feeling sulky that he didn't go with them? It doesn't seem that way. The Cannons and the Falcons are playing on the 27th--wonder if he and Harry will go to that.

You know, Draco's feelings, whatever they are, may not be about Harry at all. It may be just that when left alone without a distraction he starts to sound this way. Harry may have a particularly calming effect on him or not.

black_dog @ September 13 2003, 08:22:29 UTC

it's surprising how much you can figure out about what you're trying to tell yourself in a dream. And the same issues, fears etc. come up all the time in different forms

Oh, definitely, I can see patterns of anxiety in dreams, reflections on the day's issues. I love trying to make something out of my dreams when I can remember them. I'm just thinking about how wildly off the mark we get interpreting even relatively fixed texts as NrAgers. As you point out, identities and points of view and even ironies and inversions multiply and blur so wildly in a dream that it's hard to pin anything definite down. But as far as establishing a general emotional climate, yes, I can definitely see that. Would definitely love to talk about this more with you -- although the mods will descend on us if we do it here!

I suspect they're both "present" throughout the dreams without having to be there in person. (It is also said that when we dream we are everyone in our dreams.)

All right, I can buy this as an answer to my overly-crude Draco-as-Lucius; in either event, I do think he's exploring how far he can align his own identity with Lucius. And I still sense a contrast between walking on the books and "keeping" or saving the texts. I feel a callous sense of mastery and selfishness in the first action, and a respect and regard for valuable things in the second.

Lucius might be able to get him to do something that would hurt Harry without him fully agreeing to it.

Oh, the melodramatic possibilities here are really wonderful! Could PS provide his father with a piece of information, or bring Harry into contact with a menacing Portkey in the manner of Resolution or the latest Lucius/Narcissa thread, or lure Harry into an ambush at the Falcons game? How would things play out, would Draco interfere with any assault or would he be helpless? And how would he feel afterward?

It seems like Draco declines not just to become a vampire but to do the killing, so he has retained free will under his "spell."

Actually, I read the dream as suggesting that he had killed the Acromantula under the spell. Which, if true, adds a layer of guilt to PS' psychology. Perhaps he's confronting some of his past behavior and it seems incredible to him, as if he had been under a spell, or as if he had been a zombie and is only now waking up and "thoughtfully" rejecting all that.

You know, Draco's feelings, whatever they are, may not be about Harry at all. It may be just that when left alone without a distraction he starts to sound this way.

Now this sounds very interesting, but I admit I don't know what you mean. Tell me more!

flickerflare @ September 13 2003, 09:05:48 UTC

Actually, I read the dream as suggesting that he had killed the Acromantula under the spell. Which, if true, adds a layer of guilt to PS' psychology. Perhaps he's confronting some of his past behavior and it seems incredible to him, as if he had been under a spell, or as if he had been a zombie and is only now waking up and "thoughtfully" rejecting all that.

that's how i read it too, but i definitely didn't have anything well thought out about it. it's weird that he dreams about spiders, when he knows ron's afraid of them. it probably has nothing to do with anything, but it's interesting nonetheless!

sistermagpie @ September 13 2003, 16:52:00 UTC

I think I'll have to do a dream post on my lj...:-)

I originally read Draco's dream just the way you and flickerflare do--that Draco killed the spider. It was only when I went back and re-read it I realized he could have declined that too and I'd run with that.

It's certainly more in keeping with reality to say that Draco did "kill the spider" under the trance because he's done plenty of things in the past, as you said. Interesting if Draco is just beginning to "wake up" from the trance he's been lulled into all his life since he seems to want to go back to sleep, literally.

I think if it's at all possible Draco would like to keep Lucius the same figure of respect he's always been. Underneath it all, he must see that Lucius is flawed. At this point Draco may not think he can see Lucius as bad and love him. Remember when there was a question of Narcissa's ancestery Draco seemed ready to cut her off as per the Pureblood code, but I think that's because he always considers Lucius the most important.

Ps may be more frighteningly adept at being in denial over Lucius than we can imagine. We may give him far too much credit in that area. Things that sounded like defiance may have actually been signs of a childlike faith. I'm just throwing that possibility out there. Draco was, after all,smart enough to be freaked out by his business lunch with Lucius, knew to ask Lucius about Tom Riddle and Cedric. But he may believe Lucius' version of being unjustly accused of things.

I like your contrast between walking on books and saving them and totally agree with your thinking on it. The books could be a nice symbol for everything that's become important to Draco at Hogwarts--and everyone.

Lucius already once subtly threatened Harry with using his "trust" in Draco against him. Draco could also hurt Harry all on his own--he may like to think he can retain all his racist attitudes and be Harry's friend but he really can't. I wonder if the hall filled with pictures of Weasley and Granger might speak to them ultimately being the ones in Harry's life while he's lost and by himself. Like there's too many of them, and memories of them, to compete with. Draco's dream has him playing the hero, which he always seems to do when he's comparing himself to Harry. Interesting that in the dream he kills the monster, makes the right choice about becoming a vampire and is "rewarded" with Ron and Hermione.

You know, Draco's feelings, whatever they are, may not be about Harry at all. It may be just that when left alone without a distraction he starts to sound this way.

Hmm...what did I mean? Oh yes. Well, I was thinking how Draco seemed so focused on Harry when he was listening to the match and this led to speculation about his being worried about him getting attacked. Perhaps, though, Draco was just left behind and by himself and his thoughts Harry just happened to be the easiest expression for his feelings. We know now (through players) that he was just sticking out the game to hear who won and that there's something else bothering him besides being left behind. He makes lots of little moves towards the Gryffs--backhandedly supporting the Cannons but also planning to wear a victory Tornado cap, wanting to know who won the game the same time they do, but he doesn't seem focused on any of them.

So rather than assuming his sudden apparent attachment to Harry (and not caring who notices it) is because he's more attached to Harry or worried about him, it may just be that other worries have made him care less about the pretense of hating him.

luna_lg @ September 14 2003, 06:03:29 UTC

.... Give this girl a prize!!!

flickerflare @ September 13 2003, 09:13:21 UTC

You know, Draco's feelings, whatever they are, may not be about Harry at all. It may be just that when left alone without a distraction he starts to sound this way. Harry may have a particularly calming effect on him or not.

i was wondering that too! draco's been pretty much alone lately, hasn't he? and he's not talking about his mother ... but his mother left, i'm wondering if that has anything to do with it too. draco has a lot on his place right now and i'm wondering if it would make him overly ... hm, maybe clingy is the right word? i wonder if he even thinks it's his fault. poor draco! though that all depends on how much of his ego is made up and how much of it is real. ;D

sistermagpie @ September 13 2003, 16:58:11 UTC

I know what you mean! He's been owling his mother, which is how he knew about the Hera debacle. Hmmm...maybe there's some parallel there. I doubt their relationship is perfect now, but they seem to be in more regular contact than they've been in a while. For a long time he pointedly ignored her and now he's letting her know he'll be returning her owl. He's also not putting so much effort into trying to pretend he hates Harry.

You can't help but wonder what's changed that made him drop his old ways of dealing with these two.

Anonymous @ September 11 2003, 18:35:24 UTC

3. Draco knows that Harry's family fell apart over his own father, and the lesson was unavoidable because this was one of the main reasons he couldn't see Harry in the latter part of the summer. I imagine some of PS' angst toward Harry we were trying to pin down earlier this month might have been worry over whether Harry would hold this against him.

if draco knows, why did he go on about how great his father was and how his mother must have done something? i thought it was pretty obvious that draco had no idea...

black_dog @ September 12 2003, 05:24:26 UTC

Eh, I'm not sure about that. The post you mention is dated August 21, when Remus is still living in Diagon Alley (separated rather than "divorced") and things are just starting to hit the fan over what people are assuming is Sirius' actual episode with Lucius. Draco starts that post by wondering why Lupin should be asking him about Potter -- clearly Draco is still out of the loop at this point, which is understandable since he's been in Italy.

I think the August 21st post is simply too early to reflect a full appreciation of what happened. Remus moving to Tait street, Harry running off and getting his own flat -- these events only start to become clearer to us over the next couple of days. And my point is precisely that Draco starts his move back to the Manor thinking that Lucius can do no wrong, but has a series of disillusioning experiences afterward.

On the specific question of Lucius' sexuality, it would sort of take an effort of will not to have noticed things earlier, but Draco apparently has managed not to acknowledge it. My argument is that this is no longer possible: In early August, it would be possible to think that Remus was overreacting to suspicions about Sirius' flirting. By the end of August, its clear that Lucius, specifically, has caused a permanent S/R breakup through his repeated advances to Sirius.

anamirza @ September 11 2003, 22:37:00 UTC

I'm really wondering about the sleep thing too.

The sleep thing has been bothering me since that exchange with Narcissa. It just seemed so ... abrupt. As it happens more and more when he struggles with making his own choices, it feels more and more like the effect of a spell. But perhaps I have just been paranoid ever since PS reported his mother trying to convince him that Lucius had done something to them (end of Italy trip), which made me worry that she had a specific harm in mind rather than a general one.

While the sleep being a spell-effect fits that paranoid theory, it also fits simple depression or anxiety. Does Occam's razor apply to RPGs?

jacay @ September 11 2003, 16:58:40 UTC

This is a great post.

And I think that the reason Draco's preoccupied and possibly not sleeping and also incredibly worried about Harry is because he thinks the Death Eaters are planning an attack sometime soon, or something like that, and a quidditch match seems a likely place for that to happen.

black_dog @ September 11 2003, 17:38:22 UTC

Yes, I'm trying to figure out if it's free-floating anxiety about what Lucius is capable of doing, or a concrete fear based on something the DE's might have said at lunch. In my reply right above to magpie, I let myself get seduced by psychological speculation, but you're right to call it back down to earth. There's something awfully specific about Draco waiting for the end of the match -- as though he knows there's a new attack being planned, and can guess what it's likely to be.

anamirza @ September 11 2003, 22:39:11 UTC

A match that Draco could have gone to - he was invited - but didn't. And then listened to on WWN.

black_dog @ September 12 2003, 05:46:39 UTC

Would Harry have been more protected if Draco had gone along, do you think? Do you suppose he was wondering abut that, or about how he'd feel if something happened because he hadn't gone along?

luna_lg @ September 12 2003, 07:30:08 UTC

We're not entirely sure about that. I personly doubt it, but...it's not ENTIRELY out of the question...

sistermagpie @ September 12 2003, 07:37:51 UTC

Makes you wonder just why he didn't go along too. Was it just instinct--he didn't want to be with Arthur or Ron and Harry together? Just what he said about not wanting to ruin his chances for being able to see the Falcons with Harry by blowing his free pass by going to see the Tornadoes?

It's hard to shake the feeling that this match means more to ps than it did to even Harry and Ron. It seems like just a regular match to them, important to a lot of kids but only for the Quidditch aspect. There's just something in ps' posts that make it seem like it's about something else, though. He's following it on the radio but it seems more like a duty; he keeps talking about how boring it is and refers to himself as "waiting for it to finish." He says he wants to find out who won but then doesn't say who won. Of course that could just be because it was the Cannons but he honestly doesn't sound like he cares.

And why does he ask if Harry's back mid-game? It almost feels like his reporting of Jenkins' foul is an attempt to act like he's really listening to the game for the game after that slip up.

Also, he completely ignores Seamus' well-wishes about Narcissa. In fact, his direct answer to them (he and Seamus are very orgnized about breaking up their posts to show what they're responding to) is to ask if Potter's back yet. He doesn't use the opportunity to talk about Malfoy's handling themselves well under pressure or the evil that is muggles, but that experience did "prove" what he'd been taught about muggles was correct. Wonder how he feels about that.

Anonymous @ September 12 2003, 08:05:04 UTC

Just what he said about not wanting to ruin his chances for being able to see the Falcons with Harry by blowing his free pass by going to see the Tornadoes?

anamirza @ September 16 2003, 20:30:56 UTC

how he'd feel if something happened
I guess I meant mostly this. I don't think he would have been any use protection-wise, but I think having been invited, he would be more aware maybe of j_h being there.

Though someone (cannot remember who: sister_magpie, maybe?) suggests that he sounds like he really doesn't care, and maybe that's more likely. Whatever the reason, he seemed very preoccupied. Maybe he just wanted j_h to, ah, distract him...

This is days late because for some reason it takes me several tries to comment on entries or comments in this journal.

zionsstarfish @ September 10 2003, 21:16:04 UTC

I love Draco's account of the sleeping potion debacle, and Seamus' teasing. It does seem that Draco was worried about Harry's insomnia and decided to help in his very special potterstinks way.

Also, I think Draco should have a Tornados icon too. Hee.

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 21:30:42 UTC ?

Is is just me, or does Draco seem to have a lot more invested into his and Harry's relationship all of a sudden? It seems that his nonchalance and air of indifference is suddenly gone. I wonder what brought around this change.

(And yes this is my first time here in Nraged... go me!)

melody2tds @ September 10 2003, 23:45:52 UTC Re: ?

I'm getting that vibe too.

luna_lg @ September 12 2003, 07:35:51 UTC Re: ?

Actually, Draco himself said that he has invested more into their relationship than Potter did...which makes me wonder just how deep their relationship really is...

flickerflare @ September 13 2003, 02:41:56 UTC Re: ?

sometimes i wonder if draco is really self depreciative (sp?).

loony_moony @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

bsafemydeers @ September 11 2003, 22:05:37 UTC

Am I the only one, upon reading the is-the-game-over-yet anxiety, who thought immediately of the Simpsons episode in which the winner of the Superbowl proves or disproves Lisa's love of her father? I forget exactly how it went, just that if a certain team won, she loved him, if not, then not. Heh. Cannons win, and my ship is showing!

onthehillside @ September 11 2003, 22:13:15 UTC

no, but I like where this is going...

serpensortia @ September 12 2003, 09:54:27 UTC

Blaise is creeping the hell out of me here.

Could this be a another pointer to DE problems, or is it just Blaise at it's weirdest?

Either way I find it creepy. At least it didn't use the 'ow' icon...

Anonymous @ September 12 2003, 10:33:37 UTC

Me too. Hopefully, Blaise's just being normally weird. Draco's (assumedly) upcoming storyline starts to make me feel like watching horror movies.

sistermagpie @ September 12 2003, 10:40:16 UTC

Me too. All the Slytherins seem stressed and I love that Blaise is not only so creepy but is "a slytherin." Such a great house. I need to hear from Pansy now...

luna_lg @ September 13 2003, 06:46:36 UTC

That's true...where IS Pansy?!

flickerflare @ September 13 2003, 09:03:01 UTC

i was wondering too!!

Anonymous @ September 12 2003, 10:40:11 UTC

or is it just Blaise at it's weirdest?

serpensortia @ September 12 2003, 15:43:40 UTC

Oh thank goodness for that!