dry_your_eyes @ December 13 2003, 06:08:59 UTC

I don't really agree with him - inversion charms can be very useful. For example I wonder how a peson will speak if you cast such a spell on him/her:)

v. amused too

annotated_em @ December 13 2003, 08:25:02 UTC

I'm just laughing my ass off because "inversion" was the nineteenth century term for homosexuality. >:)

[sniggers]

dry_your_eyes @ December 13 2003, 08:56:00 UTC

I know, this definitely adds amusement :D

steph_hime @ December 13 2003, 06:35:36 UTC

Anyone else notice that Narcissa's comment is using colours from "Steel Magnolias"?

saffronlie @ December 13 2003, 13:58:40 UTC

Hee, I didn't notice that until you said so! Cute. I love that movie.

kievstar @ December 13 2003, 08:47:02 UTC

WOW! Draco's entry is always joy!!! =D

Also is it the same watch he had a fuss about with Harry? Or am I just making things to squee on up? =D I was quite fond of it *giggles* How sweet is that!

BTW< I hardly find Inversion Charms unneaded--- THATS THE PERFECT NEW WAY FOR HUFFLEPUFFS TO MAKE CODES!!! HONESTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

p.s.: I'm new! *waves!!!*

jupistrahan @ December 13 2003, 09:08:59 UTC

Welcome to the group! I've not been here all that long, either, only a couple months, but I already feel right at home. ^ ^

And I *really* hope you're right about the watch - if it's the one from harry, I shall be squeeing for the rest of the day.

kievstar @ December 13 2003, 09:30:56 UTC

Oh, thanks! I love it here! :)

And it HAS to be that clock b/c Draco says that he had it nearly three years old!!
YAY!!!!!! *dances*

dry_your_eyes @ December 13 2003, 10:22:06 UTC

welcome:) *winks*

merlion @ December 13 2003, 09:33:51 UTC

And the most *squee* worthy comment is that ps still needs to get a Christmas Gift for Potter, to which Seamus replied that he would help. Causual friends really don't need 'help' picking Christmas presents for each other, because it's casual.

kievstar @ December 13 2003, 09:53:47 UTC

Oh =D!!!

We all are so "everything thaey say means something about H/D"! I"M SO WITH YOU!!!!!!!! =D


And I think that the funniest part is: And you both have the same penchant for Capitalization, so there's something in common.


I'd merry Seamus' playear the moment I read it!!!

merlion @ December 13 2003, 10:15:29 UTC

But of course.
NA's H/D is not a 'ship ... it's an obsession! And very much over-analyzed, but still too cute!

dry_your_eyes @ December 13 2003, 10:21:14 UTC

haha
H/D is never overanalyzed, at least not in NA :))

kievstar @ December 13 2003, 13:08:12 UTC

Well I was reading the thread (my bad while talking to dad, so not too consentrated) and saw: I'd rather drown myself than spend time with that sodding moron. I thought my heart stoped beating at all-- I FOR SOME HORRIBLE MOMENT THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT HARRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vassilissa @ December 13 2003, 23:05:39 UTC

Causual friends really don't need 'help' picking Christmas presents for each other, because it's casual.

Actually, my experience differs on that one: I'm more like, my friends are hard to shop for, so I'd tend to consult other friends on what to get, but none of my friends would advise each other on what to get a partner, because that's a personal thing.

Or if we did offer advise, the person being advised would get mad.

kievstar @ December 13 2003, 12:54:54 UTC

Why is Draco so irritated? He's not just enraged, but furious... Thanks God that there is Seamus for him to talk to!

black_dog @ December 13 2003, 15:42:40 UTC

This is a great question. Everybody else is relieved -- why is it that Draco's stress seems to be peaking?

Just to toss out a couple of theories --

I think he's got to be very worried about how Harry is going to react to him after seeing Remus. If Remus has been hurt by DE's, it may have been some of the very same DE's that Draco met this summer at his father's dinner. And that could begin to force the issue of whether Draco is going to have to choose sides, sooner rather than later, between Harry and Lucius. Harry could be infuriated right now, could start making some demands on him, or could just cut him off over this. I can see PS being very worried about this.

PS also seems to be focusing a lot of his anxiety/hostility on Parvati, specifically. The reasons for this could just be comic -- he used to make merciless fun of her butt and had an unfortunate date with her sister, and maybe he feels uncomfortable about hanging around with her. But Parvati also seems to have a genuine gift for Divination even if she's running away from it. Back in March, she sensed when Harry was going to be in a "sentimental" mood with his emotions close to the surface (the attempted kiss?) and that Draco was about to make a shocking declaration of some sort. So she may be uncomfortably sensitive to H/D vibes. She also partly foresaw the attack in her vision of fish and rocks. So if PS is worried about his future with Harry, he may find Parvati's presence, and her potential insight, both oppressive and intimidating.

Do either of these sound plausible?

merlion @ December 13 2003, 15:54:33 UTC

Fascinating observations about the Parvati connection. I couldn't think of any reason why he would be so vehemently opposed to being around her, but that could be part of it.

I do agree that Draco's general mood is related to Harry (of course) and specifically to Remus' return. Draco doesn't want to loose Harry and whatever they have, but he's also unsure about his father and everything. It will be interesting to see how this it all plays out. :)

moojja @ December 13 2003, 21:11:43 UTC

I think both makes sense. But Parvati said in Seamus's journal, that she feels that Draco is the kind of person that will throw an ugliness on everything he is near. Can she be having another vision, or does she just dislike him?
I have trouble w/ the idea of Parvati being a seer. So far, she hasn't predicted anything until after the fact. I don't think she is pretending to be a seer like Sybill, but I doubt her supposed seer power is the reason Draco is avoiding her. He might just not want to see her b/c he always know that she hates him. She has voiced that opinion over and over again. Before when he went out w/ her sister, and now in Seamus's journal entry.

sistermagpie @ December 13 2003, 21:22:30 UTC

I really do like your observations here--I hadn't yet read all of the conversation and Draco really is pretty harsh here! Seamus gives some of his own thoughts on Draco's mood in his thread, but it really doesn't seem like Draco was just uncomfortable about going with Parvati, though they do have an openly antagonistic history. She gave him the death card once and he at one point retaliated...what did he do to her again? Did he swell her up? And then she definitely has been eerily correct with her predictions and he would have good reason to want to avoid her. Still, that doesn't seem like what's causing the emotion in his post.

He seems okay when Seamus first speaks to him, just saying who he needs to get presents for and then saying he's not going with Parvati, but he really goes off after Seamus says they're the best people to pick out something for Harry. Ultimately he's reduced to telling everyone to leave him alone and complaining it's a stupid day in a stupid castle...um, okay. Somehow I don't think the watch would cause that much of a tantrum. It doesn't sound like he's having fun coming up with insults here, he's seriously spitting and hissing with Parvati as good a target as any since he has good reasons not to want her around. If he'd just been trying to avoid the trip he could have done it with much more style and probably driven Seamus a bit crazy by being infuriating. He doesn't seem to be working with Seamus or trying to get anything out of him with his complaints.

So throughout his own post he's focusing on the watch but the conclusion to all his troubles seems to be Potter going off to St. Mungo's. He makes a point of avoiding the real reason Harry's even going there by making a joke about his seeing it coming, not acknowledging Remus at all.

I wonder if Draco's feelings are still too all over the place to have only one cause for his anxiety, though I'd think imagining seeing Harry after he comes back should make him anxious. I do think that would have to be part of it, even if he tried to tell himself it had nothing to do with him and even if Harry didn't bring it up. He can't have an open conversation about anything Harry's going through because they'd have to obviously avoid Draco's connection to the bad guys.

He got up early and went to the watchmaker which does make me consider the possibility that he couldn't sleep and was too restless to stay in the castle. (There's just something out of the ordinary about him going out early on Saturday morning to get something fixed rather than sleeping in and telling his mother to send him a new one.) Sounds like he's really trying to give himself a distraction for what's going on all around him but Harry's hardly going to be distracted from this.

black_dog @ December 13 2003, 21:56:31 UTC

what did he do to her again? Did he swell her up?

At one point, he hexed her butt with an engorgement charm, which caused Parvati to run off to complain to Pomfrey, who accused her of eating too much chocolate. :)

He seems okay when Seamus first speaks to him, just saying who he needs to get presents for and then saying he's not going with Parvati, but he really goes off after Seamus says they're the best people to pick out something for Harry.

That's interesting. So maybe it is even more about Harry -- he can't bear to have his friendship for Harry under scrutiny, to have other people kibitzing as he buys him a gift? Or maybe more generally, he just can't face being in a situation right now where he might have to talk to other people about Harry at all. Because clearly he's going out to buy Harry something anyway, but he's going by himself (or with Crabbe, which is the same thing.)

The reason I'm focusing on Parvati a bit is that he really is so venomous when her name comes up, it makes me suspect that something about her, specifically, is pressing one of his buttons. But you're right, that could also be just the moment when he sees Seamus reducing his shopping for Harry into a matter of an ordinary public event, and maybe that's what sets him off.

He got up early and went to the watchmaker which does make me consider the possibility that he couldn't sleep and was too restless to stay in the castle.

Another bit of interesting evidence about his mental state prior to the invitation -- and the Parvati argument maybe loses further steam. Obviously everyone knew something was up last night so I can definitely see PS starting to panic then. Someone else pointed out above that this is the same watch that was the pretext for Draco returning to Dogear after this summer's party -- so maybe it's very sentimental to him. Maybe the whole post is a very, very oblique way of addressing Harry, or reflects some subconscious fear that things are irreprably wrecked with Harry.

If he'd just been trying to avoid the trip he could have done it with much more style and probably driven Seamus a bit crazy by being infuriating.

But he really, really annoyed Seamus here, which I think he's going to regret. Seamus' conversation with Parvati is really going to set him off, I think -- the offhand critical discussion of his personality, the hint of pity and sympathy and condescention, the very straightforward tone which makes it seem devastatingly truthful rather than an attack. Draco's going to be humiliated and furious to read Seamus' summing up. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bit calculated on Seamus' part -- or at least that he was irritated enough that he deliberately didn't bother being tactful. We know, from past comments by Colin and Ron, that this stuff stings PS. And if he's also worried about being rejected by Harry, he's going to be kind of desolate.

I'm curious to see if MB will weigh in with moral support, or choose to let PS stew for being such a jerk.

So the screw tightens on PS!

sistermagpie @ December 14 2003, 08:24:41 UTC

But he really, really annoyed Seamus here, which I think he's going to regret. Seamus' conversation with Parvati is really going to set him off, I think -- the offhand critical discussion of his personality, the hint of pity and sympathy and condescention, the very straightforward tone which makes it seem devastatingly truthful rather than an attack.

That's interesting because I didn't think Seamus was all that annoyed. To me this way of talking about ps--offhand critical assessment, hint of pity, sympathy and condescension and straightforward tone--is the way he talks to and about ps all the time. It's always seemed to me Seamus makes a point of not being tactful around him . It makes me wonder exactly how ps thinks of Seamus, actually, because he never seems to react badly to it the way he does to comments by Harry, Ron and Colin. Seamus is very often right in the way he describes ps and cuts through his crap when talking to him, but I don't usually feel like he's hitting any really deep truths about him because he doesn't seem to take him seriously enough to really even try that. Maybe I'm taking ps too seriously here with my over-analyzation but it seems to me like there's more going on here than ps just being socially inept when threatened with an unfamiliar and therefore threatening situation like shopping with Parvati. Sometimes I feel like Seamus is very enamored of being the guy that has Malfoy so in hand. Here I thought he sounded like he was apologizing to Parvati the way a therapist might apologize for a young patient with behavior problems.

I'm not sure how I feel about that attitude sometimes--I wonder if it's what annoys MB about him. Because he doesn't take MB's annoyance of him seriously either. Like it seems like he chalks these things up more to quirks of behavior to be re-trained rather than the sign of something significant, if that makes sense. So I felt like he wasn't really deeply bothered personally by ps' response to his invitation. As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread ps has good reason to not want to be with Parvati--not only has she in the past been connected to things that might make him uncomfortable but she openly doesn't like him and says so semi-regularly. (And she has good reason not to like him, of course.)

What do you make of ps tripping third-year Ravenclaws in Hogsmeade? They sound like a convenient target for his bad mood, was he also making a point about still being the same nasty kid he always was? He appears to have ditched Crabbe at some point (while he was giving a cat a pounding!!!). He'd already gotten Goyle's present by then but I wonder if he didn't want to shop for certain other presents alone--presumably Harry's because I can't imagine anything secretive about whatever he'd get for His Father.

Wow. That last sentence really sums up our whole recent conversation, doesn't it? Imagine going out to be a Christmas present for Lucius and Harry!

black_dog @ December 14 2003, 08:54:58 UTC

I suspect we have similar Sunday schedules, because I was writing a "follow up" just as you were posting this . . .

On the Seamus question -- I think we disagree just a little, but it's an interesting issue. I find Seamus a very attractive character, but he reminds me a bit of people I've known who take slightly excessive pride in their own ability to overcome their demons -- he's sometimes a bit too cheerful, a bit too self-consciously normal, a bit too forward and proud of his ability to handle people, and he does occasionally come off as presuming with Remus and some others.

I don't think it's enough to say that Seamus "cuts through the crap" when talking to PS. I think, on the contrary, that he's very careful to subtly flatter PS with the pretence that they're "cutting through the crap" together when he wants to confront PS with a harsh truth. Do you see the same distinction here that I do? The classic example is last spring's conversation with Draco and Ron about color schemes, where we see Seamus in action simultaneously de-fusing two very different and volatile people. I think Seamus is usually very diplomatic, very tactful in his dealings with PS, even as his goal is to draw him into a more normal set of social relations -- partly for Harry's sake, and partly, perhaps, to gratify his own sense of his role as a peacemaker and as a fighter against folly.

And I think it's fascinating when Seamus' cover comes off just a little bit -- when he's pushed too far. I remember his "Fuck you" remark a few weeks back when PS protested that nobody was offering him socks. He doesn't like to fail with PS. I stand by my suggestion that his remarks to Parvati don't reflect his usual diplomacy. They have the effect of diminishing PS in a way that I think Seamus is normally careful not to do when he deals with him directly.

But this is all part of my theory that PS' recent behavior is really over the top, too, so that people's reactions to him are going to be extreme. Apart from abusing Parvati, PS also makes it clear to Seamus, personally, that his advice is unwelcome -- I'll thank you and everyone else to leave me quite alone. Seamus doesn't reply to that at all. I think it ticked him off.

As for PS tripping the third-years -- see my other comment to you. Does this sound plausible to you?

sistermagpie @ December 14 2003, 09:40:07 UTC

I find Seamus a very attractive character, but he reminds me a bit of people I've known who take slightly excessive pride in their own ability to overcome their demons -- he's sometimes a bit too cheerful, a bit too self-consciously normal, a bit too forward and proud of his ability to handle people, and he does occasionally come off as presuming with Remus and some others.

Yes, that's about how I see him--I'm not sure how we're disagreeing. Oh wait, I think I do know--I may have sounded like I thought Seamus' usual dealings with ps were less carefully handled than you're describing here, but I don't. I do see him usually dealing with ps the way you've described him--but that, to me, still has a subtext of ps being handled and helped rather than them being friends. Remember how Dean felt he was kind of taken over by Seamus in their relationship...I think dealing with Seamus could sometimes make people feel like fighting their way out of molasses in a way, where he's so quick to understand and handle the person the person begins to feel like they don't exist or something. (When Seamus posts to Remus his posts offer direction to how Remus sees himself, though, because they seem very similar characters to me on some level--I think Seamus sees Remus as a great example of exactly what a man should be...there are certain situations where you pretty much know what position Seamus is going to take and it's often very much the one I think Remus would take.) Also remember his remake of Harry, where he posts Harry's new clothes in his journal.

And I think it's fascinating when Seamus' cover comes off just a little bit -- when he's pushed too far.

Me too--but I think when the cover comes off it reveals Seamus' problems as well as ps.' Seamus seems to me the type of person who loves helping other people and absolutely sees this as a mark of his own superior nature at times. It's not that it takes a lot to push him too far, you just have to hit the right button. I'm beginning to agree that Seamus is being perhaps intentionally less tactful than usual here to get in a dig at ps, but I still think his words reveal something about the way he thinks about ps and that slight condescension and pity doesn't come out of left field. That is, I do think this is the way he sees ps a lot of the time.

black_dog @ December 14 2003, 10:02:17 UTC

Yeah, I think I did misunderstand what you were saying before about Seamus' normal attitude toward PS -- I think we're totally on the same wavelength as far as Seamus and Draco are concerned. It feels like Seamus does see PS as a "project," though I do think he is often captivated by PS in spite of himself. And for all the pride Seamus takes in being able to "manage" PS, he's also vulnerable to being hurt when PS doesn't stay in the box he has assigned him, when PS resists or disregards Seamus' intentions -- which is a further tribute to the complexity of Seamus' feelings.

black_dog @ December 14 2003, 08:34:31 UTC

A morning-after follow up:

He tripped and bullied Ravenclaws! Ickle third-year Ravenclaws! The very same year-group that suffered so badly in last June's attack!

This is sort of a psychological feast, isn't it? Could Draco do anything more to align himself symbolically with Voldemort, to make himself genuinely hateful? If the Remus business is the trigger for all this, I can see him overcome with self-loathing about his father's allies, about his untenable position with Harry, about his inability to resolve his own conflicting loyalties. So he piles all this guilt and all these accusations on himself and starts acting out like the vile person he imagines people accusing him of being. Or that he imagines it's really his fate to be.

If this is right, this is a tough situation, because although on one level we can have sympathy for what he must be going through, he's also behaving in a way that's close to unforgivable. But maybe that's what he thinks he wants -- to be rejected by his new friends so he can go over to his father's side with a clear conscience? I mean, I can't imagine he really wants that in an uncomplicated way, but that seems to be his kind-of-neurotic solution to the stresses he's under.

Does Harry still care about Draco enough to rescue him from himself once again, as he did after the outing? Or have recent events been too much for them? Stay tuned . . .

a_player @ December 14 2003, 08:45:27 UTC

Oops, it was the Hufflepuffs who got killed during the attack. Just clarifying. :D

black_dog @ December 14 2003, 08:57:14 UTC

I realized that as I was writing but I loved my theory so much that I only changed "group" to "year-group" to try to finesse the issue. Am busted, busted.

sistermagpie @ December 14 2003, 09:03:19 UTC

I think it might have a number of causes he wasn't aware of, but it's hard to tell everything going on without knowing what his reaction to it was. I do wonder if, for instance, he was making a point of trying out this behavior which was once so common for him--the important question seems to me to be, though, how it went for him. We're hearing about it from Crabbe who thought it was funny then abused a cat. Draco left. Did tripping the girl have whatever effect on his mood he was hoping it to have? I'm not sure yet. Not that he'd ever admit it if it didn't, of course.

We know he was in a bad mood before he left and it does sound like he's having one of his "This is who I am and if you don't like it piss off!" moments. I'm inclined to think this thing with Remus is somehow the cause of it for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. He really does seem to be making a point of being on "the other side" here--if everyone else is relieved, he's annoyed. If Seamus is now happy and ready to go shopping he'd rather trip little girls out shopping. We don't know if he chose this girl for any particular reason--was she saying or doing anything that specifically annoyed him before he tripped her? Did he recognize her from anywhere at all? Did he target them because they were, as Crabbe thought, Mudbloods?

I don't know if this is something Harry can save him from. Just like with the outing, it seems like this is something he has to basically go through on his own, testing the limits of his own fears etc. I just can't imagine Harry being at all sympathetic about anyone considering joining the DEs, you know?

I also can't help but wonder if Draco's birthday would be at all significant to Lucius in terms of any new steps in his future. I wonder if he's a little ambivalent about going home. First he mentioned it was a little large after Hogwarts, now he's all about his usual impatience to get back to it. It's interesting he'd be having one of these attacks of wanting to define himself as not part of Harry's circle after the recent breakthrough where he wanted to be closer to him. I'd hope whatever they talked about then will effect how Harry deals with this kind of behavior. Specifically Harry might be more vocal about exactly how he feels about this kind of thing, leading to them actually talking about it.

black_dog @ December 14 2003, 09:38:06 UTC

I do wonder if, for instance, he was making a point of trying out this behavior which was once so common for him

But even if he was, it's kind of a parody of what he did in the past. I mean, it's one thing for, say, a sixth-year to trip or hex a peer or a fifth-year, but for a seventh-year boy to trip a third-year girl is just pathetic. It's not even menacing or bullying, it's just messed up. If I were feeling indulgent, I'd call it a "cry for help," but he's really pushing our sympathy, here.

About the comparison to the outing -- I don't know, I think Harry did save him from the outing, just by being willing to forgive him. And no, Harry wouldn't be sympathetic about anyone joining the DE's. But I think PS' behavior is anything but a simple declaration of a choice. He's got to be so messed up right now, and Harry may realize it. So in principle, I could see Harry trying to save him from a self-defeating choice that he doesn't really want to make, but the question is whether Harry still has the energy, or the faith in Draco, to even try. It's going to be fascinating to see Harry's reaction to all this.

I liked your point about the visit home, and his upcoming 18th birthday, as one of the things that are stressing PS. This makes a lot of sense -- his birthday might be a natural time for Lucius to press him into some sort of open declaration, in to formally signing up with the DE's. Plus, there's the psychological pressure of being home and under Lucius' power.

Having considered all these pressures on PS -- what do you make of the fact that PS, himself, doesn't seem to be strong enough, or insightful enough, to resist a downward spiral here. Is that even a fair statement? If it is fair, how does it square with our tendency to see and root for an attractive side to PS?

sistermagpie @ December 14 2003, 10:02:00 UTC

But even if he was, it's kind of a parody of what he did in the past. I mean, it's one thing for, say, a sixth-year to trip or hex a peer or a fifth-year, but for a seventh-year boy to trip a third-year girl is just pathetic.

True, but ps' bullying could always get to the level of pathetic at times. His throwing the mud and fake blood was pretty awful, as was his outing of Harry, not to mention a lot of his remarks here and there. That's why his character could get so icky at times, I think. His bullying always kind of bordered on the embarassing.

About the comparison to the outing -- I don't know, I think Harry did save him from the outing, just by being willing to forgive him.

Yes, I don't want to play down Harry's role in helping him through the outing by telling others to back off and talking to him about it afterwards (MB and Pansy were there for him as well). What I'm referring to, though, are the parts that was just ps dealing with fallout on his own. Harry did as much as he could to keep from adding to that fallout but ps was still there in his detentions and alone in his theater and dealing with his parents' disapproval and losing all the house points. In the end he was the one who stuck it out through that and learned (I felt) that he could survive more than he thought he could. Harry's sad acceptance, for all we know, might have pushed him to deal with things even more than an angry, unforgiving Harry would have.

I'm not sure Harry would feel he needed to expend any energy or have faith in Draco about this particular incident. When it comes down to it, all he did was trip a little girl so she and her friends fell in the mud for whatever reason. We might see it as symbolically aligning himself with Voldemort but he hasn't really done it. I think Harry might just say that seemed like a really stupid thing to do and leave it at that (if he focuses on it at all given Remus' situation).

Having considered all these pressures on PS -- what do you make of the fact that PS, himself, doesn't seem to be strong enough, or insightful enough, to resist a downward spiral here. Is that even a fair statement? If it is fair, how does it square with our tendency to see and root for an attractive side to PS?

It's hard to tell. We probably shouldn't be too assuming about exactly what other characters think he's facing at home--or what he is facing at home, really. We don't know if Harry sees Draco as coming towards a choice because Harry might not really get Draco's relationship with Lucius or be trying to understand it. They don't seem to talk about it, and Harry probably doesn't have any insight into exactly how Lucius manipulates his son or what Lucius' plans for Draco are. He's got a lot on his own plate to deal with, after all, and may not think too much about what less familiar dangers ps might be dealing with. We don't know if Harry even noticed the DE lunch--wasn't he cut off from communication around then?

My main reaction when you described ps resisting the downward spiral was that as of yet he doesn't seem so much not resisting as acting out on his own. We're seeing negative signs, but they're coming right after that positive interaction with Harry last week. So he may be kicking out in all directions, confused, rather than moving inexorably in one direction. Ps' racist sympathies and loyalty to his father has always been part of his character, and it seems like the only way to address them--whichever way he goes--is through something ugly. Anytime you think he's going to be able to just gradually be led towards the light he ends up choosing a violent, ugly self-destructive lesson instead. Maybe he just needs that. If he is going to reject Lucius' ideas and thus Lucius himself that's a big demon to face and he'd probably make it into as big a demon as possible. It makes sense to me for some reason, given ps' personality in the past, that his way of dealing with anxiety over this situatuion with Remus would involve something like this rather than his acting more attractively.

black_dog @ December 14 2003, 10:21:48 UTC

Just a couple of thoughts, because I have to bolt out for the afternoon:

I guess the core of my reaction to PS' posts over the last couple of days is that it represents a significant amount of backsliding from the things he's accomplished in recent months. Yes, his bullying always had an ugly and squalid streak, but he really hasn't done anything quite like this in a long time. Yes, he had to recover from the outing on his own, but I thought his reaction was to take everybody's hostility a bit to heart, and be more open to connections with people -- and now he's been rude to Pansy and to Seamus, and really nasty to Parvati. Yes, these negative signs come right after positive developments with Harry last week, and he could just be "kicking out in all directions," but in general in the past, I think he's tried to build on positive experiences with Harry; he's sulked about failures or possible fights, but I don't think he's reacted to positive things by becoming hostile and destructive.

I could be over-reading, but I don't see this stuff as business as usual, it feels to me like an approaching crisis. I could be totally wrong. Harry might dismiss his bullying of a third-year, but if this more general "crisis" is real then a key issue for their relationship is whether Harry notices it or is able/inclined to help with it.

sistermagpie @ December 14 2003, 10:53:45 UTC

Oh I definitely agree this isn't business as usual--it does feel like an approaching crisis to me definitely. I'm just not sure what that crisis will be or how it will come out, whether the positive experiences suggest he will ultimately come out on the good side or whether this obvious lurch backward suggests he will turn out on the bad side.

Yes, he had to recover from the outing on his own, but I thought his reaction was to take everybody's hostility a bit to heart, and be more open to connections with people -- and now he's been rude to Pansy and to Seamus, and really nasty to Parvati.

Absolutely. I thinks he's coming from a different place here because of the way he'd taken everybody's hostility a bit to heart in the past. There's something else going on here, something new. Harry, too, has just been surprisingly aggressive with people and I think they could be mirroring each other in some splintered way. They both may feel like they're speeding towards some kind of destiny they didn't choose for themselves but also don't know how to break out of, but given the directions they're headed they might neither of them feel like they can talk to anyone about it. Harry seemed angry at other students just for not being in his position and there might be a bit of that going on with ps as well. Presumably he wants to be able to just be right there when Harry comes back as his friend, but he can't be because this whole issue is loaded for them.

Maybe the other difference with ps here from in the past is he's not only coming from a different (seemingly stronger) place to start with, but he's going someplace different as well. Because it doesn't seem like whatever's going on here is about his previous desire to be closer to people while also protecting himself from rejection by pretending he doesn't want that. It still seems more about what he's going to be indpendent of other people rather than just wanting other people to react to him a certain way.

vassilissa @ December 14 2003, 17:10:44 UTC

then abused a cat.

BTW: I keep wondering if some time later, scotchtartan is going to show up and deduct massive Slytherin points for Crabbe's having beaten her up.

zionsstarfish @ December 14 2003, 17:43:23 UTC

We're hearing about it from Crabbe who thought it was funny then abused a cat.

Just quickly adding my 0.02 cents ('cause I think I could sit here with a bucket of popcorn and read you & black_dog discuss the mystery that is ps forever & be happy ;))... when I read Crabbe's report of what had happened, I was immediately suspicious, *because* it was Crabbe, and he has quite the blatant pure-blooded elitist POV. I think he would interpret ps tripping a 3rd year Ravenclaw as deliberate, even if it wasn't.

Then again, I'm sure the event has significance, or else it wouldn't have been mentioned.

*munches popcorn* ;)

vassilissa @ December 13 2003, 23:14:18 UTC

Those are good.

Here's my theory: Sirius broke up a PS/J_H date to take Harry to rescue Remus. Then Harry went off and stayed all night at St Mungo's. So Draco's mad because his date got broken off, he didn't get his fix of JH, and he plain misses him.

If this sounds like a spoiled child, that's because PS is a spoiled child. He's growing out of it, but it still takes time, and he still has the old reactions - he just doesn't act on them so much. He is now mature enough to know that he's not meant to be mad that Harry went off to rescue his oddfather, but the feelings are still there, so he's grouchy, and he thinks everything is stupid.

jupistrahan @ December 14 2003, 00:50:26 UTC

*<3's your theory* That's exactly what I think. ^_~ Draco will get over it.... in fact, I think he's upset that Remus is getting the attention that he wants, and feels he needs to get Harry something that will draw Harry's attention back to him. Oooh, I just can't wait...

black_dog @ December 14 2003, 09:03:43 UTC

Interesting. I think it's very plausible that that happened, and that it upset Draco. Imagining the scene, I think Harry's reaction would be important, too -- did he make an effort to console Draco or did he just bound off, leaving Draco feeling abandoned and disregarded?

But I also sort of feel there has to be more to it, too. I guess it comes down to how you see their relationship right now. Is PS just a little bit insecure about how much Harry cares for him? Or does he have reason to be anxious about the way the war is intruding more and more into even the possibility of a relationship here? I may well be over-reading the backstory, but I'm trying to imagine my way into their heads, and am speculating that there's more than just personal romantic stresses happening between them. My .02 anyway.

sistermagpie @ December 14 2003, 10:04:29 UTC

I may well be over-reading the backstory, but I'm trying to imagine my way into their heads, and am speculating that there's more than just personal romantic stresses happening between them.

I tend to agree, especially since they just went through that exact scenario where Harry stood Draco up and he was angry about it. It just seems like they wouldn't do exactly the same thing again. Not only would it be quite a coincidence that all the most dramatic moments of Remus' mission interfered with ps and jh meeting, but Harry didn't seem in the mood to be making dates anyway.

onthehillside @ December 15 2003, 12:36:34 UTC

What the hell is this? Also, <3 to M.B.'s new icons, especially the "I do not have a hole" one.

zorb @ December 15 2003, 14:03:53 UTC

*g* I was just going to point that thread out. Doesn't it bring up lovely images of ickle!Draco and ickle!MB thwapping each other over the head with tiny broomsticks and shoving crayons in each other's ears?

onthehillside @ December 15 2003, 14:08:12 UTC

I don't think that MB was ever ickle, but the image is ridiculously cure all the same.

vassilissa @ December 15 2003, 17:40:22 UTC

*loves M.B.*

sistermagpie @ December 15 2003, 18:31:40 UTC

"My mother says you are my friend." I don't know whether that's little ps being a snot or just very sad!

"I do not have a hole." Bwahahaha! "It's not the imaginary type, is it?"

I can see these two 70 years from now at the Old Wizard's Home stealing each others teeth and expelliarimus on each others' jello. And they'll still be cute.

So what did they bet about????

black_dog @ December 15 2003, 19:12:17 UTC

So what did they bet about????

No idea, but when did that stop us?

Let us gather the facts, the better to speculate wildly:

1. MB says there was a "betting pool," and other people were involved. (Gross? Who is Gross?)

2. Draco lamely suggests "the danger certainly hasn't passed yet," suggesting it was a time-pool, that such-and-such would happen on or by a certain date. So maybe it reflects something (public?) that happened, but also something one could at least pretend, facetiously, there was some doubt about.

3. Per MB, Draco was the instigator in setting it up.

4. MB's remark, "It must be awfully embarassing for you," may refer to her new icons, but sounds like it is a deliberately ambiguous allusion to Draco losing the bet.

5. Millicent won, but she would not have minded losing. This is kind of interesting.

OK, first step out on a limb: Since Draco's loss is embarassing, it suggests that he bet he wouldn't do something, or suffer something, that he thought was under his control, and that Millicient was skeptical, even though she was partly rooting for him. And Draco is partly in denial about whether whatever happened counts.

Of course, this could be about something we have no clue about, but where's the fun in that? So let's look at public events -- I think it would be too gross for them to bet about Remus. Could they have bet about a quarrel with Seamus? But MB wouldn't be rooting against that. Perhaps the tripping of the third-year, if they bet on the next time Draco would make a fool of himself by losing his temper? Maybe they're playing off Harry's visit to St. Mungo's, and they bet on when he would crack.

No, obviously none of this works.

However, while I may be completely stumped, I feel I have elucidated the reasons for my stumpage, and constructed an elaborate scheme of stumpage sub-factors to support that elucidation. My work for the day is done. Over to you!

* * *

Just a thought on the icons in view of our previous discussion. Could they be intended to undermine PS' growing sense of himself as demon spawn, by reminding him he was once an adorable child? Could they be obliquely directed at Harry, for the same purpose?

Oh, and is there any significance to the year 1984? Wasn't that the year Narcissa last remembered having an infant in the house, even though Draco was 4 or 5? Was Narcissa a little nuts in 1984, so that she was having mysterious pregnancies and making Draco send Christmas cards in February?

zionsstarfish @ December 15 2003, 19:25:58 UTC

Was Narcissa a little nuts in 1984, so that she was having mysterious pregnancies and making Draco send Christmas cards in February?

Probably ;) But Feb. 29 is M.B.'s birthday. I don't know how that factors into all this but !!111one!! the cuteness!

black_dog @ December 16 2003, 00:53:21 UTC

Oh, nice catch! I didn't even think to check this. So it's not just one random Christmas card, but a whole collection of cards that MB has been saving . . .

One thing I love about the birthday card is the way Draco forgot to sign it and then squeezes his name in. It's like he wrote Millicent's name and the date, and then tucked himself into it afterward. It's sort of endearing, maybe proof that he wasn't always so full of himself.

sistermagpie @ December 15 2003, 19:47:00 UTC

LOL--it does seem that way, doesn't it? With 1984? But to the bet first, yes, I had a hard time figuring out what it could be. Recent events have included Remus' return, but it doesn't seem like that. Perhaps something happened in Hogsmeade which meant Draco lost the bet and he then angrily tripped a third year? Or maybe losing the bet was what put Draco into the bad mood to begin with.

He says the danger hasn't passed yet...what's up with that? It seems like something has happened that MB said would happen and Draco wouldn't or vice versa but...I have no idea what. It seems like something that happened off journal, since I imagine the kind of poll Draco would start wouldn't center on front-burner Gryff stories.

I can't believe how much I love these cards that Draco sent MB. And however embarassing she feels it is for him, it's very sweet that she's kept them all this time. Was this around the time they were dressed as a bride and groom as well? I wonder if MB was originally introduced to Draco as some sort of intended bride?

I'm not sure what exactly MB is doing with the cards--obviously she feels Draco needs to be confronted with his childhood trees for some reason. I, too, wondered what he meant by saying that that tree didn't go with the other ones, btw. The dates are very odd. Sent in February (it seems) in 1984, the year of the mysterious baby and a year that would make Draco...well, not quite the age Narcissa mistakenly thought he was that time she got it wrong. Perhaps she's just not good with dates but it does seem weird. Maybe Narcissa and Lucius were away during Xmas so Draco sent out his cards late?

Or maybe the card was Draco's own idea entirely. Perhaps they met at Xmas and so he drew the picture of a tree. Homemade cards don't seem like the kind of things Malfoys send. Not the kind with February misspelled, anyway. They might not be all one card, though. She might have a whole box of notes from Draco.

sistermagpie @ December 15 2003, 19:50:12 UTC

Duh--zion points out the obvious which I had considered checking and stupidly didn't. So yes, most probably two cards. The February one might have been an enforced card, which Narcissa told him he had to send because MB was his friend so Draco simply told her that his mother said she was his friend (but he perhaps disagreed). Good job, zion!

But since Draco is so embarrassed by them, it seems like they were more sincere.

a_player @ December 16 2003, 01:13:29 UTC

*clears up mysteries*

It says 1984 because 1984 was a leap year. :)

black_dog @ December 16 2003, 01:36:15 UTC

*clears up mysteries*

*laughs* One down, I guess. :D

black_dog @ December 16 2003, 01:34:13 UTC

Well, Zion nailed the birthday issue, so that makes sense -- and MB switches to the birthday card when PS suggest the icons are about "embracing her inner Christmas Joy," to imply that it's not just about Christmas.

I wondered for a bit if the cards hadn't turned up recently -- as in, a long time ago, MB's mother returned them to Narcissa for their sentimental value and Narcissa just recently shared them with PS, who shared them with MB. There's the implication that the cards themselves were a recent Xmas gift of "brand new icons," and that if MB didn't like them she should give them back.

The bet might, of course, be some totally trivial internal Slytherin thing. And since we have no clue, and there are limits to what even NrAgers can conjure out of nothing, maybe it's more fun to think about what the conversation says about MB and PS' friendship, or PS emotional state right now.

We know MB is perfectly capable of giving PS grief, or the cold shoulder, when she disapproves of something he's done. But here, she's absorbing a lot of not-so-playful hostility from him, teasing him back hard but not in a cutting way. Even her insults cut two ways -- she "can't reach the lower branches" is about him being short, and her being fat. I liked the way she played off the turkey remark, too. (<3's MB endlessly.) She really keeps throwing sentimental images back at him, the icons obviously but also the reference to the fairy on the Christmas tree. I still think there's a subtext there of trying to make PS seem lovable to himself, which maybe responds to the sense of rage and self-loathing I felt in his other posts.

So she seems to be making a lot of allowances for his upset, and trying hard, in the rather twisted way that is patented to work for PS, to cheer him up and make him feel better and let him blow off steam. And for Millicent to try that hard, she must sense that things are kind of bad with PS right now.

Or maybe, I am talking out my butt. I don't feel much traction here, don't feel I'm getting it, but feel like babbling about it anyway, because PS and MB are so amusing to read.

sistermagpie @ December 16 2003, 07:57:56 UTC

I grew up with somebody whose birthday was Feb 29th. Is it a leap year in NRaged terms, so Draco has to get MB a present which he usually skips because she only gets a birthday every 4 years?

I hadn't considered the possibility of Draco's having just given MB the cards. It doesn't seem like either of their mothers would keep things like this. Narcissa's sentimental Draco memories are almost invariably wrong somehow, and MB doesn't seem very close to her mother given Mum's fashion sense. Even as a kid it seems hard to believe MB would let her mother get her hands on things like this. The P/MB/ps friendship has always seemed to me to be defined by the way it stands against their parents, with MB leading the march for independence.

ps' referring to his gift of new icons doesn't necessarily mean he just gave her the cards. Even if he gave them to her years ago he's still the source material for her new pictures. I like to think of it that way because of the way he first asks her what her picture is. If he'd just given her the cards, or just seen she had them, I'd think he would have immediately reacted with, TAKE THAT DOWN! or something. But his first comment on it ("What is your icon?") seemed more uneasy, like he sort of recognized it but was thinking, "It couldn't be...could it?" He yells at her to take them down after she shows the icon with his name scrawled on it. So it seemed to me like this was MB torment out of left field to me.

This may just be the way MB gets into the Christmas spirit, taunting Draco. I imagine the little Slytherins would have many memories together of that holiday (and this is their last one together in school). It does seem like MB is feeling pretty kindly towards ps here and that ps' snarkiness is no match for her. He seems basically proud of his cards and I would venture to say rightly flattered MB would keep them. I love how his temper flares up briefly when she seems to take him up on his suggestion of giving them back. Yes, I think those cards might have done some serious cockle-warming on ps. He tries to be Scrooge but he'll always be Tiny Tim to MB. A tiny tiny Tim.

black_dog @ December 16 2003, 11:06:15 UTC

I think it's supposed to be 1997 in the NA world, so there wouldn't be any Feb 29, 1998. And anyway, with a proper birthday only every four years, the closest ages would be 16 and 20, neither of which works for seventh-year. So it feels like Millicent has just been getting [gasp!] randomly sentimental over old stuff, and decided to share with Draco.

You're right about how PS warms up under the surface as MB stands her ground -- how he's horrified when she offers to give the cards back. I love the way the whole conversation mellows out in the end to friendly teasing about presents. MB is definitely tuned into PS, and he's lucky to have her.

zionsstarfish @ December 16 2003, 22:30:44 UTC

MB switches to the birthday card when PS suggest the icons are about "embracing her inner Christmas Joy," to imply that it's not just about Christmas.

Maybe she's trying to acknowledge that she's aware of the significance of Christmas and quite possibly, ps's upcoming birthday, in terms of going home, being alone, and quite possibly facing Y-K-W, the Choice, and Lucius.

"My Mother says you're my friend." <33333333 ps!

Anonymous @ December 16 2003, 13:33:28 UTC

okay, i'm confused about something. people keep referring to harry going to st. mungo's to be admitted or something and draco's mention of it being a dig of sorts at harry.

i thought he was just going there with sirius to see remus. i mean, didn't sirius say he was taking harry there with him?

black_dog @ December 16 2003, 17:15:08 UTC

Yes, I think that's all anyone really thinks -- that Harry went with Sirius to see Remus. But Draco made a joke about it on his post, implying that Harry was admitted and that it was about time. Since, after all, Harry had been acting really stressed. So, I wondered if they were just running with Draco's joke.