black_dog @ January 3 2004, 15:01:40 UTC

Tigernach?

You beat me to it.

I am growing increasingly infatuated with Narcissa. She is utterly inscrutable. I don't know if anyone wants to open up another endless Narcissa discussion -- on the one hand she's too smart and tough to be the airhead she poses as; on the other hand, there's evidence from time to time that she's genuinely a bit deluded about things. So it's never clear whether she's only playing dumb and actually sending interesting signals and messages, or whether she's really in denial about something that's disturbing her. I suppose that uncertainty keeps Lucius off balance, too, which may be one reason she gets away with it.

The reference to Nott as Lucius "associate," rather than "one of his associates," is interesting. In the past, hasn't Lucius' "associate," singular, been a code for Voldemort? So is Narcissa trying to establish a record where L's relationship to Voldemort is deniable? Or is she signalling the importance of Nott to some upcoming event? Ever since the summer and her conversation with Snape before her return to Lucius, I wonder sometimes if Narcissa agreed to establish some sort of intelligence backchannel on Lucius' activities. Yet again, reading this, I can imagine both a pro- and an anti-Lucius interpretation, as well as a completely innocent one where she's just describing her day. Same for the somewhat chilling remark about Kiki Leavonshire. But the fun, as always with Narcissa, is that it's impossible to tell.

I'm imagining just how much Draco is enjoying his intimate little chat with Lucius and the Notts, knowing (from just the other day) what he and Theodore Nott think of each other. I'm eager to see Draco's version of this holiday when he writes it up.

One random note -- Narcissa is the queen of the genteel malapropism, which I've always thought is just a lovely subversion of her self-image (decor/decorum is my consistent favorite.) But sometimes she gets it strikingly right. I thought her use of the word "bromidic" to describe New Year's Day was wonderful.

sistermagpie @ January 3 2004, 15:54:51 UTC

I love the way Nott just won't go away, beards and all. Theodore had to send a card to Draco because his dad told him too--it seems pretty clear their fathers are the ones that are trying to make them be friends. Draco doesn't seem pressured to be friends with Nott by Lucius. I assume this is because Tigernach is hoping to curry favor with Lucius because he's the more powerful DE. It would be beneath Draco to be forced to be friends with an underling.

Narcissa's feelings are hard to interpret, as usual! As she's typing she's listening to Lucius and Draco conversing, which could be significant. Anytime those two are talking you want to know what they're saying, as it often seems directly related to a current DE situation. Lucius sometimes seems to rarely speak to Draco unless he's trying to influence him along these lines.

Narcissa states flat-out here that she supports her husband's activities, though she might not be telling the truth. "Despite sharing our sorrows for Kiki, Nesta and I did get on wonderfully. It has been such a long time since Lucius and I had seen the Notts socially and I do hope that we may do so again in the near future. Nesta fully supports her husband and his work, something that I find to be comforting as some of the witches in our circle, most notably poor deceased Kiki, are not so supportive."

Is Narcissa asserting her support of DE activities because she doesn't want to get killed like Kiki or is she agreeing that Kiki needed to be taken care of because she wasn't supportive? (Or just commenting that Kiki was unsupportive and not connecting it to her death?) She specifically says it's lovely that Lucius and Tigernach are including the boys in their official business. Is there any message could she be sending through that, like wanting someone to know that Draco is moving into the inner circle? Or is it just what it sounds like, a woman who thinks Draco's natural destiny lies in Lucius' circle and sees this as just a sign that Draco is growing up. Speaking with DEs is like speaking with board members of the family company?

I wonder if the business at Cannes was significant at all as well...

I, too, would be interested in Draco's version of this visit if he gives one. The thing about Kiki Leavenshire is that she might not only be a parallel of Narcissa but Draco as well. He's the one palling around with Harry Potter, after all, and thus possibly the least supportive Malfoy right now.

adolfa @ January 3 2004, 16:09:47 UTC

He's the one palling around with Harry Potter, after all, and thus possibly the least supportive Malfoy right now.

Well, if Narcissa and Draco are acting the same way then that would make Lucius the least supportive Malfoy, wouldn't it!

*totally unhelpful* *goes away now*

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 05:31:48 UTC

I love the way Nott just won't go away, beards and all.

This is sort of a horrible vision of Draco's future, isn't it -- hanging out and conspiring with Theodore Nott and his father and his father's friends. At least Nott doesn't smell like MacNair. But the way this has been set up, coming off Nott's note and gift and PS' time with Harry, it just seems impossible to think of Draco as being dazzled by the possibilities of a DE career. If anything it sort of heightens the sense of his dilemma. But maybe I'm over-reading, or I just like PS too much.

It's interesting that PS and Lucius are having a long conversation -- is Lucius reviewing the significance of what they discussed with the Notts? That seems like one step beyond what happened at the dinner last summer, where there was no mention of any follow-up from Lucius. And did Narcissa take "too long" writing her letter because she wanted to hear every bit of their conversation?

Had some more thoughts on Narcissa in response to dari_brit's comment, below.

What do you make of Narcissa's endorsement of Draco's plans to postpone his birthday celebration until April? It seems like the sort of whimsical decision on PS' part that she might simply ignore rather than make anything of. What's the significance of April? The other day I sort of randomly tossed out the idea that it was his anniversary with Harry, but the more I think about it, I can't really think of anything else. So, is Narcissa's remark a coded endorsement of PS-JH, or a signal to Harry & Co. not to take the Nott meeting too seriously? Or am I too starry-eyed a shipper, here?

I wonder if Draco really is in any danger from his relationship to Harry. The whole Malfoy family dynamic seems to illustrate the human limits of the DE "terror." I mean, Kiki Leavonshire was expendable for reasons we don't know, but the Remus incident suggests that Lucius is constrained by his regard for Narcissa, and/or that the DE's are constrained by Voldemort's regard for Lucius. Whatever else one might think of Lucius, I could never see him deliberately harming Draco or tolerating harm to him. I wonder if Lucius had issues with V's attack on Hogwarts last summer, for precisely these reasons. And it occurs to me just now that Narcissa probably had a very definite problem with it, which might have explained some of her hostile and mocking comments about Voldemort this summer, if not a crisis of loyalty.

No conclusions; just turning up the soil and seeing what's there.

sistermagpie @ January 4 2004, 09:00:25 UTC

But maybe I'm over-reading, or I just like PS too much.

Well, it doesn't seem like over-reading to think that Draco up till now has seems to enjoy his time with Harry and his Slytherin friends and not enjoy dealings with Nott or the DEs. I find it interesting that Draco always describes Nott as weird--isn't that really just the perfect description for the kid who wants to be a DE? It's like...Draco isn't so clued in as to really see what's going on here, but he does seem to have a good instinctual reaction to V and his followers. He's repulsed. He looks at Harry and sees success and since he was 11 he's focused on him in that way. I think he still feels Lucius represents what he should want and is maybe a little impatient and disturbed at having reservations about it.

It seems like what Draco's now going to confront the reality of the DEs. His whole life, I'd assume, he thought of them idealistically. They were the coolest, the badasses who were going to show everyone Pureblood superiority. But can ps realistically be part of their group when he's so bad at showing exactly what he feels about people? I guess it would depend on his reasons for doing so. There's his pureblood prejudice, but that seems like something that's supposed to work for him, not trap him in a life of service he doesn't want. I'd never say he'd given it up, but spending time with his new friends has surely given him other interests beyond it.

It's interesting that PS and Lucius are having a long conversation -- is Lucius reviewing the significance of what they discussed with the Notts?

That's what it seems like. And that, I think, is the part Draco would probably love--Lucius treating him like an equal. I'm with you, btw, on Lucius' limits regarding Draco. I don't think he'd intentionally wish harm on him--but the Malfoys are kind of a study in harm by default. Lucius could be a danger to Draco while still loving him.

What do you make of Narcissa's endorsement of Draco's plans to postpone his birthday celebration until April? It seems like the sort of whimsical decision on PS' part that she might simply ignore rather than make anything of.

I thought it was the type of thing she'd bond with him over. It's a party and she can get behind that. I'm intrigued by the date too--when are NEWTS? Is he just picking a convenient time, like during break in the spring after the exams are over? Lots of people whose birthdays fall on significant dates (or in winter) are known to do that. Anyway, Draco's whimsical ideas are sometimes the main thing Narcissa picks up about him--she gave him a shop for Christmas.

So, is Narcissa's remark a coded endorsement of PS-JH, or a signal to Harry & Co. not to take the Nott meeting too seriously?

I have a hard time seeing Narcissa as any kind of spy...well,I can see her spying but more for Lucius than anyone else. It just seems way too convenient and easy for her to be working with the good guys and secretly protecting Draco and Harry's best interests. I'm not sure we're supposed to see Remus as having gotten off easily because of Lucius--how was he found again? Presumably silver is poisonous, so I don't know if we're supposed to see the DEs pulling any punches there. It's like...Narcissa's relationship with Remus must count for something, but if Lucius has to be too nice to Narcissa's friends we lose the danger. Harry and his family seem far too important to the Order's cause for Narcissa to be able to protect them too much.

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 20:33:55 UTC

he does seem to have a good instinctual reaction to V and his followers. He's repulsed.

Interesting that Draco is completely noncomittal about the meeting in his new post, except for suggesting that Mr. Nott is "clever." It's a striking contrast to the revulsion he displayed after the last DE meal he was invited to. I have trouble believing his attitude is changing; maybe he's just learned to keep his thoughts to himself in the interim.

He seems more irritable than he's been since the week before he and Harry got together, which probably reflects the fact that his Christmas renewed his exposure to his father's pressure and reminded him of his dilemma. The allusion to the concentration camps is a bit extreme, even for PS, but why has he been reading about the Nazis? Racist propaganda from his father? Or anti-DE propaganda from another source?

I'm not sure we're supposed to see Remus as having gotten off easily

Another interesting point of interpretation. I guess I do see Remus as having been gotten off the hook. Yes, he was badly hurt, but what possible reasons would the DE's have had, on their own account, to turn him loose at all, or to leave him in limbo until he was located and rescued? I supect he would have been killed except for Narcissa's intervention.

Reading his comments closely, the silver was "in the drinks," so he was caught unaware at what he might have thought was a safe meeting -- with a double agent? The silver was obviously enough to disable him but not kill him in the first instance, so perhaps the intention was to interrogate him? And it sounds like, after a while, he was left in limbo -- to transform without wolfsbane, to suffer without either being further tormented or healed. That sounds to me a bit like someone whose captives weren't sure what to do with him, who were under conflicting pressures or were waiting for a decision above their level on whether to kill him or not. I don't think it's clear whether he was actively released, or whether the good guys were tipped to his location, or whether they discovered it on their own. But in any event, he was "kept around" longer than it was strictly safe or prudent for the DE's to do so.

I agree that things are "too safe" if Narcissa can simply protect her friends without any complications; but I think some of the dramatic suspense here comes from the conflict and the doubt over how far this protection extends -- how far can personal relationships be invoked to soften the edges of the early skirmishes of the war? And how long will that sort of consideration continue to be the rule? I would turn your own point back at you -- the extent of Remus' injuries suggests that the success of Narcissa's intervention wasn't a sure thing, that there were some ferocious conflicts behind the scenes over what to do with Remus.

sistermagpie @ January 4 2004, 21:04:42 UTC

The allusion to the concentration camps is a bit extreme, even for PS, but why has he been reading about the Nazis? Racist propaganda from his father? Or anti-DE propaganda from another source?

It seemed to me like he was starting out his post with an intentionally offensive joke that probably did point to some obsession with the whole idea. It's extreme, but also not funny. I mean, the Hogwarts Express has nothing in common with trains going to concentration camps even from ps' pov. (Even if the woman bringing food is deaf!) So I wonder if he's trying to confront the reality of his father's views and starting with bravado and jokes, trying this kind of reality on for size? You take away the offensive nature of the joke and it just really falls flat anyway. It doesn't at all relate to how he sees Hogwarts, despite making jokes about it every year. He doesn't seem to be making any real connection between the two experiences, just announcing that he knows about Concentration Camps and gas chambers.

I do wonder where he would have gotten this literature. He doesn't read as a rule, and probably wouldn't seek out Muggle history if he did. That makes me think he's gotten the stuff very recently, either from Nott and Lucius or perhaps from somebody like Harry who asked him to read it to maybe start a dialogue. I suppose he could have sought it out on his own, but it seems odd that he'd know about the Holocaust enough to make the connection himself. Perhaps somebody (perhaps Harry) just made a reference to it as being the type of thing Voldemort wanted to do to Muggleborns and Draco looked it up. If Harry (or someone else) did suggest he look into the subject Draco's joke might be a show of defiance, saying that he has done the required reading, thank you, and is not doubled over in horror. Though of course underneath he probably would be a little horrified because he's a big fraidy-cat.

I guess maybe he'd be darkly fascinated--this is somebody who spent hours with his grandmother's dead body after all--but he really doesn't seem turned on by that kind of violence.

His talk about Mr. Nott is interesting--could just be carefully noncommital, but he could also have genuinely found the man clever (or just acceptable because he had a good time). Or maybe Lucius said he was and Draco therefore agreed--but not as clever as Lucius himself. I kind of like the idea that he was most interested in the fact that he won at Morchevi than any plans the DEs might have. Of course, we should be careful not to think that Lucius and Mr. Nott sat the boys down and talked DE business. More likely they would have just had a pleasant conversation and maybe asked the boys about their post-Hogwarts careers. It would be laying the groundwork for future joining but probably nothing overt. Draco may still be in denial about what this sort of thing is leading to, but it's certainly interesting he's reading up on the Holocaust if he is.

I'm unsure whether this sort of thing would make good propaganda from the DEs. For one thing, the Nazis lost, for another, they were Muggles. It seems odd to claim this is the type of thing they were going for and they've had to learn it from Muggles. Even the Nazis themselves did this by degrees with a lot of denial. It kind of became more and more horrible by degrees rather than being a public announcement of planned torture and extermination. I can't imagine anybody would think this would turn Draco onto the DE cause. More likely it would just gross him out.

Re: Narcissa--I do agree she has to have some power. That the game is now making open references to Nazis seems like a big step. Narcissa would be expected to go along with the program. A lot of Germans did, I believe, occasionally step up to protect Jews they liked and perhaps Narcissa is more one of these types of people. Ultimately, though, they didn't have the power to save anyone they chose.

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 22:00:47 UTC

He doesn't seem to be making any real connection between the two experiences, just announcing that he knows about Concentration Camps and gas chambers.

Interesting that he immediately provides a disclaimer for the remark:

"I did some light reading over the holidays, could you tell?"

That doesn't sound to me like someone who's comfortable with the reading -- it sounds like he was rattled by it, hence the ironic reference to "light reading." And I agree that he's mentioning it for its own sake, not because the "joke" actually works at any level at all -- which suggests to me that he's obsessing on it, it's upsetting him, and he has to speak about it, somehow, regardless of the context.

I would love to think that Harry or Narcissa gave him the book to warn him off the DE's, but I don't know, something that overt just doesn't seem like their style. I suppose it could have been Harry, but that would mark an apparent advance in how frankly they talk about this sort of issue, how aggressively Harry is pushing PS -- I'd love to think that was happening, but I guess it would be a [pleasant] surprise at this point.

Although you provide some reasons why the DE's would not be interested in the Nazis, there is of course a wizarding correlate to WWII and the Holocaust, and that's the wizard Grindelwald. All the details are pretty much fanon. But Grindelwald himself, and Dumbledore's defeat of him in 1945, are themselves canon. The details are left to our imagination, but it's not simply an alien, Muggle thing.

So I don't think it's impossible that Lucius gave PS the book, mainly because PS' time has been so dominated by Lucius lately (and I can also see Lucius asking, "what are you reading?" if PS were sitting around with a book.) It also seems like a logical follow-up to an introduction to the DE's. I can imagine the DE's preserving this as sort of a memory of what their "pureblood" project might be like in practice, if they got to try again. And if Lucius and Nott really are on board with this sort of program, they might just have no conception of how someone outside the DE hall of mirrors, someone like Draco, would actually react to it.

In any event, it's a clear parallel to what a "dark wizard" previous to Voldemort might have actually endorsed and cooperated with (not to mention that it's the political atmosphere in which Tom Riddle grew up). And regardless of who gave him the book, PS must be making the connection with the DE project. I agree that this is a big step for him, and the fact that he seems rattled and disturbed is a very hopeful sign -- it has to have a major impact on his thinking. I wonder if it will also affect his assessment of Dumbledore?

You make an interesting parallel between Narcissa and some half-hearted Germans. I think you're right -- and watching those human links gradually fail is an instructive parallel here and a marker of the oncoming horror. Again, I don't know what to make of Narcissa -- though in support of the "spy" theory, she seems very eager to meet with Remus as soon as she can. To report on the Nott meeting?

sistermagpie @ January 5 2004, 07:35:59 UTC

That doesn't sound to me like someone who's comfortable with the reading -- it sounds like he was rattled by it, hence the ironic reference to "light reading."

Absolutely. It also might hint it was given him by someone else, like that it was suggested to him like someone would recommend some "light reading" and it was anything but. If Lucius gave it to him, though, would he be sarcastic about it like that? Wouldn't it have been something he'd have to take more seriously and not tell anyone about?

I suppose it could have been Harry, but that would mark an apparent advance in how frankly they talk about this sort of issue, how aggressively Harry is pushing PS -- I'd love to think that was happening, but I guess it would be a [pleasant] surprise at this point.

It's hard for me to imagine Narcissa giving Draco an ugly book about Muggle genocide, particularly since she herself is able to move amongst DEs the way she does. The book could also have come from somebody like MB. Draco has recently had good times with her, Pansy and Harry. He was definitely in the Muggle world with Harry--for all we know he might have seen the book and asked about it and Harry just passively bought it for him or whatever, without explicitly telling him this was Something They Would Talk About. At the same time, it's not like Harry would pussyfoot around the DE issue, imo. They might not talk about Draco's possible future, but it's not like Harry would censor himself about Voldemort out of politeness.

Although you provide some reasons why the DE's would not be interested in the Nazis, there is of course a wizarding correlate to WWII and the Holocaust, and that's the wizard Grindelwald.

Right...but then shouldn't they just stick with Grindelwald then? I notice since one of the things I always associate with NA is a firm grounding in the WW. Purebloods don't make casual references to CDs etc. When wizards make references to Muggle things it's always given a context so it makes sense, like with Remus' love of Muggle music. It seems like for a player to make the decision to bring up a jarringly Muggle thing is important, particularly if it's somebody like ps who's so extremely isolated from the Muggle world, so that he can barely follow a conversation that has any Muggle references in it.

And if Lucius and Nott really are on board with this sort of program, they might just have no conception of how someone outside the DE hall of mirrors, someone like Draco, would actually react to it.

This would probably make them very different from most Nazis, though. Not that I'm an expert on Nazis, but it seems to me there was a constant disavowal of the worst aspects of the Holocaust at practically every level. Not necessarily because they were horrified by it themselves, since they were obviously doing it, but because they did retain some knowledge that it had to be hidden. I'd think many also wanted to retain the idea that they were still regular people. Since Nott and Lucius are DEs I can see them being on board with this, but it still seems odd to imagine Lucius, who's brought Draco up in a world that's supposed to be refined and cultured, to make such a gaffe as this. I'd think he'd be a much better seducer.

Again, I don't know what to make of Narcissa -- though in support of the "spy" theory, she seems very eager to meet with Remus as soon as she can. To report on the Nott meeting?

Hard to tell! She could just want to see him after his ordeal, or maybe have some project of her own she'd like to speak to him about. She and Draco have publically posted about the Nott meeting so it's not a secret. It seems to undercut the bad guys' side a lot to think that Lucius would have meetings with DEs that his wife then blithely reports to her friend in the Order. (Plus, as I said, I doubt this meeting contained any real DE information--otherwise why trust Draco with it?) I suppose she could be asking help because she sees Draco being drawn further in, but I'm still very unsure just how she views Draco with regards to the DEs. As usual, she's a puzzle!

black_dog @ January 5 2004, 20:53:55 UTC

I hesitated to reply because Snape has asked PS directly where he got the book. But PS hasn't answered him yet. Knowing NA, of course, he may find a way to avoid answering. :)

It seems to undercut the bad guys' side a lot to think that Lucius would have meetings with DEs that his wife then blithely reports to her friend in the Order.

One of the fascinating things about the game, though, is the way the bad guys can be comic and inept but still horrible and scary. Like drooling serial killers or amateurish terrorists who still have guns and bombs. Narcissa has sometimes taken this line on them, especially when she basically called Voldemort incompetent after the Hogwarts attack. And I've never thought Lucius himself was meant to be a genius -- remember the way Draco restrained him last year when he almost implicated himself in the murder of Harry's parents.

On Grindelwald, my point was only that within the frame of the story this may not simply be "Muggle" history. JKR seems to suggest indirectly that WWII had significant repercussions in the wizarding world as well, and in fact it's hard to see how it could have been otherwise.

On whether Narcissa has anything to report -- she was at pains to point out, in her comment, that she was absent from at least part of the meeting, talking with Mrs. Nott. So on reflection, one interesting thing her comment does is allow her to deny she had any substantive knowledge of what they talked about, and to suggest that she was vacantly more interested "the new Vivienne Westwitch line" than in any DE plans Lucius was discussing. If one is suspicious about Narcissa, of course, this only seems like careful construction of a cover.

It sounds like part of the meeting included Draco and Theodore (but maybe not Narcissa and Nesta), but then there was the part that PS and T were excluded from, while they were playing Morchevi. Some "real DE information" could very well have been discussed during this second part. Finally, there was the conversation between Lucius and Draco that Narcissa may have been eavesdropping on as she wrote her letter -- perhaps Lucius was filling in Draco on select parts of the private meeting. If Narcissa has been keeping her eyes and ears open about DE plans while pretending not to be interested, she may well have something to tell Remus privately, about whatever she was able to figure out about the actual, ongoing DE plots. (Perhaps they were even doing a post-mortem on the Remus operation, which she'd be eager to share with him.) Supposedly she and Remus were meeting today so it will be interesting to see whether, and how obliquely, either of them comments on her visit.

sistermagpie @ January 6 2004, 07:32:08 UTC

I jump in now that Draco's replied. It was a fashion connection--how interesting. So these robes were presumably based on the SS? He called them gaudy...it would be interesting if he were first intrigued by them and then read what they were based on and was disgusted with himself for being attracted to them. Interesting little pamphlet there! I can't help but like the symbolism if that happened, that ps is attracted to something because it looked cool but once he reads the pamphlet it's atrocious and he feels like he was tricked into thinking it was cool. The fact that it stuck in his mind still seems significant--how many other things he's noticed on his shopping trips does he mention? And in such an odd way. Usually when he mentions something he's seen he projects himself into it, like imagining what kind of prince he'd make if he owned a particular castle. This seems like the first time he's identified himself with the victims of a particular story instead of the ones in charge. Not that he doesn't see himself as a victim in his own stories a lot--identifying with the Jews in ths story doesn't necessarily mean he's rejected any Nazi-type views.

And I've never thought Lucius himself was meant to be a genius -- remember the way Draco restrained him last year when he almost implicated himself in the murder of Harry's parents.

Oh yes, I agree. But there's a balance between the two. Even concerning the Hogwarts attack...it may be funny to think of Voldemort as incompetant in the way he failed to get Harry but he killed a lot of students in the process. The bad guys clearly have big weak spots (after all how was Voldemort stopped in the attack anyway but through a trick of Draco's told to Harry) but they aren't usually stopped before he gets off the ground if you know what I mean.

If Narcissa has been keeping her eyes and ears open about DE plans while pretending not to be interested, she may well have something to tell Remus privately, about whatever she was able to figure out about the actual, ongoing DE plots. (Perhaps they were even doing a post-mortem on the Remus operation, which she'd be eager to share with him.) Supposedly she and Remus were meeting today so it will be interesting to see whether, and how obliquely, either of them comments on her visit.

That could definitely be true. I think I'm just resistant to the idea. Maybe it's because it seems like I'm enjoying watching ps possibly move away from the wrong choices by baby steps although his future is far from certain still. It seems to kind of release all the tension in that if his mother has already made the jump and is secretly a freedom fighter working against the system from within.

black_dog @ January 6 2004, 09:42:27 UTC

It was a fashion connection--how interesting.

I don't believe him. Do you? I can't totally justify my disbelief, but his explanation feels too elaborate and circumstantial, especially as a reply to someone like Snape. It strikes me as too much of a coincidence, given how relevant the Nazi issue is to his prospects as a DE. And the "fashion" thing is a useful distraction because it makes him seem a little silly -- it closes off further inquiry, because he must be telling the truth if he tells a story against himself, right? At the same time, PS has plenty of reason to conceal who gave him the book -- if it was Harry, he'd conceal that fact from his father; if it was Lucius, he might not be willing to expose him at this point. Call me paranoid and overimaginative, but I still think someone pointedly gave PS the information, and the "gift" was important to him, whether positively or negatively.

it may be funny to think of Voldemort as incompetant in the way he failed to get Harry but he killed a lot of students in the process.

I think we agree here. Have you read Lasair's Veela Magic? It opens with a stunning scene where terrorists murder a child out of sheer incompetence and muddleheadedness. And that really adds to the horror and verisimilitude of the story. I don't mean to suggest that DE incompetence is funny in a purely comic way; just that the incompetence is part of their actual squalid reality. As a literary choice, it's an interesting difference from portraying evil as romantically sinister and suave and all that.

I think I'm just resistant to the idea. . . . It seems to kind of release all the tension in that if his mother has already made the jump and is secretly a freedom fighter working against the system from within.

That's fair. I think an objection in "story" terms can be as compelling as an objection in "character" terms. I'm really just trying on different explanations for Narcissa's behavior, and I do think this is a possibility. I guess I think Narcissa-as-spy has its own drama and tension which are different from the drama and tension in Draco's story. We know she's tried, and failed, to make a more direct appeal to PS to turn against Lucius, so if she really is a spy she probably doesn't dare to let PS know. From PS' own perspective, then, he's still be making his choice in isolation. But I'll probably have a different theory-of-the-week next week. Narcissa does that to me!

sistermagpie @ January 6 2004, 10:32:03 UTC

I don't believe him. Do you?

Ooh--lovely idea! ps flat-out lying about something that way is a rather impressive step. I mean, he lies all the time, but usually not very well! If he is lying (which I would love) it really does seem like the return of the ps we glimpsed in the thread where Lucius and Harry were fighting (where Draco sent Harry Lucius' reply about his parents).

There were a couple of things that seemed off in his explanation just in terms of facts. First it was very odd to imagine this pamphlet coming attached to a suit of robes someone might actually buy. It just seemed an odd thing to actually be selling in that way, saying this robe was based on these people and going on to not only explain what country and regime they were related to but the specifics of gas chambers. If it really were the way he put it, his joke about "light reading" could relate to that--like why the heck is this upsetting stuff attached to the price tag of a suit? Now it's in my head and it's the store's fault! You'd think he'd put it that way in his original post if that were the case.

Also there's the fact that Snape, specifically, questions him on this. Snape doesn't always comment to Draco, but he zeroed in on that right away. I got the feeling this was because Snape himself was relating this to DEs. He had the same reaction we all did (who gave you that?) which seems to indicate it set off the same bells in his head. (Only Snape's bells are probably a lot sharper!)

Call me paranoid and overimaginative, but I still think someone pointedly gave PS the information, and the "gift" was important to him, whether positively or negatively.

I love this idea, and I don't think it's OTT for the ps of Seventh Year starting to become a little more intelligent and mature. He made a point of bringing up this topic in his journal so he could be almost trolling, seeing what reactions it gets from what people. If it immediately got Snape's attention he'd make a note of that. If he got the book through Lucius he might be seeing how Harry reacted; if Harry gave it to him he'd be really showing intiative in seeing Lucius' reaction. It's interesting...this kind of comment would probably get a huge reaction in a Muggle setting. The silence it's greeted with here doesn't seem wrong though, nor just a product of the WW (since there are Muggleborns there, obviously, and connections to WW2 as you pointed out). It seems almost like everything's gone very quiet now in general. We've gotten recent good comments from Neville and Dean, so I don't mean everyone is literally quiet. It's just more of that subdued, tense feeling I've gotten from the game this year. ps' antics just don't get as much reaction.

That's another reason why ps' latest posts strike me as significant. He posted several times around his birthday. Part of it was that good things were happening, of course--last year's birthday seems very lonely in comparison. But even while it's happy, there's this shadow hanging over it in the form of the Notts. Last year his parents went to the MacNairs. Draco could stay until it was boring and then leave when he wanted.

I think we agree here. Have you read Lasair's Veela Magic?

Yes! ::Shudder::

I guess I think Narcissa-as-spy has its own drama and tension which are different from the drama and tension in Draco's story.

Oh, I agree. And I think she clearly is having her own independent story of conflicts of loyalties. She loves Lucius but is also close to Remus. Describing her as firmly in Lucius' camp with no conflicts isn't accurate either. I think I just still see her as in the middle and finding ways to stay there. And of course she could be a spy and still ultimately betray Remus' side. I think I've said before the Malfoys remind me of Tom and Daisy in The Great Gatsby. They may play at having meaningful relationships outside their marriage but in the end they're in the kitchen bonding over a plate of cold chicken. This Narcissa (changed from the way she was earlier) seems less loyal to the DEs but also more personally attached to Lucius.

sistermagpie @ January 6 2004, 20:25:27 UTC

GO SNAPE!!!

black_dog @ January 7 2004, 20:14:14 UTC

Two nice new comments from Snape and Narcissa; so, like classical philologists delighted by the discovery of a new poetic fragment, we raise the floodgates of new commentary and let it pour forth. Or something like that!

But first, old business:

There were a couple of things that seemed off in his explanation just in terms of facts.

I totally agree with your logic here. Even with Narcissa's apparent confirmation of part of the story, there's still something fishy here. 1. Who would sell clothes that way? 2. Even if they did, wouldn't PS have turned it into a comic story about marketing in the first instance, rather than reading the substance seriously and making his weird comment about the train ride? I think Narcissa is rushing to provide him cover. And I love, love, love the glimpse we get of Narcissa as knowledgable about both art and history. Even if she does, hilariously, say "rathered."

If we take her comments at face value, there were indeed some funky robes that were the seed of this whole incident -- I wonder if they were post-Soviet chic, since Russian uniforms would be most likely to accompany an anti-Nazi pamphlet (I can't see them using US uniforms to make a fashion statement), and Narcissa might well despise proletarian "homespun." The alternative would be a kind of
Storm Trooper S&M thing, unattractive in concept and not likely to come with a booklet that undercuts its premise, though it might have generated a more direct sense of revulsion.

But more interesting is the fact that Narcissa accompanied PS on this shopping expedition, and is now covering for his public comment -- so does that strengthen the idea that it was Narcissa who planted the DE = Nazi idea? She might have noted PS' first reaction, or even set up the encounter, and then reinforced it by giving him a book or telling him a story. Her comment is a maze of ambiguous revelations -- for example, she reinforces her reactionary credentials by citing Hengist, scourge of the Squibs, as a better inspiration for wizarding design and, perhaps, wizarding politics. But maybe that's part of her cover.

He made a point of bringing up this topic in his journal so he could be almost trolling, seeing what reactions it gets from what people.

I like that -- as well as your analysis of whom he might be trying to draw out in each case. It might also be, more directly, a signal to Harry that he's more willing to talk about certain things. The idea of drawing out Snape is more complicated -- would PS have had the sophistication to make a deliberate appeal to Snape, here, knowing about Snape's DE past and presumed defection? Or would he be nervous about Snape's true loyalties, since in DE circles people probably assume that Snape is really spying for Voldemort?

In fact, I wondered if Snape's eagerness to talk with PS wasn't a risky move, wouldn't blow his double-agent credibility with V? (Is Snape a double-agent in NA canon, spying on Voldemort in the guise of someone spying on Dumbledore?) Even if Snape were trying to convince V that he was maintaining cover so he could spy on Dumbledore, would overtly recruiting a Malfoy be explicable as "just staying in character," or would it seem just too weird at the next DE meeting? Whatever the case may be, Snape has certainly leapt at the chance to talk with PS (and presumably work for his redemption.) Narcissa may be providing Snape with cover as well, by generating a distraction and not leaving his comment hanging. Which again reinforces the idea that behind the facade, she's smarter than the rest of them and always cleaning up after everybody. :)

*uncaps another beer, waits for the next development*

sistermagpie @ January 7 2004, 21:38:42 UTC

Storm Trooper S&M thing, unattractive in concept and not likely to come with a booklet that undercuts its premise, though it might have generated a more direct sense of revulsion.

And they're a homespun color, which presumably isn't the black of the SS, anyway.:-) But I guess army green is never going to be Narcissa's cup of tea anyway. Heh--she's like Private Benjamin, "Is green the only color these come in?"

But more interesting is the fact that Narcissa accompanied PS on this shopping expedition, and is now covering for his public comment -- so does that strengthen the idea that it was Narcissa who planted the DE = Nazi idea? She might have noted PS' first reaction, or even set up the encounter, and then reinforced it by giving him a book or telling him a story.

Or it could be it's more what it seems: Narcissa and ps went shopping (something they do have in common and do together) and saw some ghastly robes. Draco picked up the pamphlet that went with the robes (presumably they were men's robes) and Narcissa looked at other things. This could be the first she'd heard of what was in the pamphlet and she could be simply reacting to the part of the story she has something to say about: fashion. She may just truly be saying that the robes were hideous and if one was going to base robes on military leaders why not go with a good one like Hengist. A bit like holding Vlad the Impaler above Atilla the Hun because at least he had better fashion sense. The details the jumped out at us (trains, showers, concentration camps) might not get the same reaction from her, being a wizard and somebody raised with the beliefs she was.

The idea of drawing out Snape is more complicated -- would PS have had the sophistication to make a deliberate appeal to Snape, here, knowing about Snape's DE past and presumed defection?

I wonder if Snape's response was a complete surprise. He hasn't responded to him yet. That could be because a) he's not ready to talk about it with Snape; b) his player's just busy and hasn't posted yet or c) he decided to go talk to him without making it public.

Also, I love that ps is ending his post with how he should be off to sleep except Crabbe is snoring because SLEEP is just the big theme of ps' posts this year!! I just feel like there's this subtle something going on underneath all his posts this year. Dark images--as well as Nott and Snape--keep popping up here and there. I get the feeling--I don't think I can find evidence for it, I just feel this way--like his dealings at home keep leaving him with this sense of unease he can't really put into words. This Nazi stuff may finally give him the opening to begin to approach it but I'm not sure if he's really aware of just what he's feeling yet. I guess that's why his first line almost feels like trolling--he knows this Nazi stuff is important to somebody, somehow, and he has to announce it, if just to try to claim it's no big deal.

Narcissa and Snape have almost the opposite reactions. Snape zeroes in on Nazis etc. and asks where he's reading this stuff. His response to the robe explanation seems very transparently code: things are coming back into fashion that are better left in the past. Narcissa, by contrast, seems to run with the robe story--yes, the robes were terrible and why not use a wizard soldier for a model? Narcissa could be giving him a big cover story of course, or she could have just gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. I remember how recently she and ps actually started to have a conversation and Narcissa became quickly bored with the subject. She might find Muggle history boring too.

I have no idea what Snape's status is on NA with the DEs. He's obviously working for the Order, but I don't know what Voldemort thinks he's doing. I have a hard time believing he truly has V's trust. Garbo (the WWII spy) he's not, imo.:-) If Snape isn't supposedly a DE undercover, he could easily speak with Draco. His only worry, I suppose, would be Lucius, but Lucius has supported his influence in the past. It's also sometimes hard to tell just how private the journals are supposed to be. They're obviously seen by everyone, but at the same time people also post things that are pretty private to them.

black_dog @ January 7 2004, 23:33:28 UTC

Or it could be it's more what it seems:

*laughs* You are good at letting the air out of my more extravagant trial balloons. But I still find Narcissa's comment odd, and am looking for significance not just in its overt content but in the fact that she made it at all. PS' original answer to Snape still feels at least partly like a lie to me, so Narcissa's chiming in seems like an offer of cover for a weak story. I find it mildly odd that she would jump into a charged conversation between PS and Snape, and very odd that she would refer to PS' decision to read the pamphlet in terms of "bravery," which to me seems like at least a nod at his audacity and defiance here. The whole thing feels to me like a deliberate, coded signal, though what the key is I don't pretend to know.

You're probably right about the Snape-as-double-agent thing. I am perhaps getting my canon and fanon inexcusably mixed up. But I thought Lucius at one point last fall made an allusion to Snape trying to pass himself off, in DE circles, as a spy. I will have to look for that.

I just feel this way--like his dealings at home keep leaving him with this sense of unease he can't really put into words. This Nazi stuff may finally give him the opening to begin to approach it but I'm not sure if he's really aware of just what he's feeling yet.

See I think he's further along than you do -- I was really gratified by many of his posts over the holiday. I mean, he comes home and refers to his father sarcastically as "notably absent from Hogwarts." He buys his father an Egyptian tomb sculpture for Christmas and laments the lack of a tomb. He hangs out with the Notts and comes back thinking of Nazis and gas chambers. Cumulatively, this is not very subtle!

And although we don't see much direct dynamic between Lucius and PS, we do see a fair amount of PS/Narcissa interaction, and what seems very noticeable is that PS has a new measure of distance and self-control, he puts on a facade that serves his purpose and maintains smooth if insincere relations when he chooses to. I have to assume based on the hints in his journal that he is similarly concealing an increasing frustration with his father, though I think we'd agree that that frustration is not simple contempt, or a readiness to break yet. Still, he clearly sees his father as a source of disagreeable stress he wishes he didn't have to deal with. That's progress.

I like your observation about sleep -- sleep for PS has been a marker for avoidance of the pressures he is under, if not for a more general depression, maybe. I agree with you that he's been agitated all year, susceptible to more introspection and dark thoughts than he's used to, and that this is a reflection of the choices and pressures he's facing. I think it's also been a mirror of his relationship with Harry, since he was always short on sleep back in May when things were presumably chugging along. If I were a rabid H/D fan, I might even think that the point of this particular remark was that he didn't go off to sleep just yet, because of Crabbe's snoring, but found something else to do. :)

On an unrelated note, I note with interest that while the Malfoys were in the South of France, Percy was in Wiltshire, apparently on ministry business, perhaps relating to last summer's Hogwarts attack. And he comments on how much one can get done when "the world is at its calm." Perhaps Draco's disenchantment with the DE's is happening just in time.

sistermagpie @ January 8 2004, 08:43:05 UTC

*laughs* You are good at letting the air out of my more extravagant trial balloons.

LOL--I hate to do it! I just remember how easy it is to start liking our theories to the point we think they're fact so we can be going off in exactly the wrong direction. I remember months after Narcissa's illness people still talked about her being pregnant or losing a baby, for example. It was hard to get it into people's heads that she was never pregnant because the signs seemed clear. So there are probably times when I try to be overly strict about taking things at face value. It's doubly hard with Narcissa because her character is so into facades. ps in the past has been easier to read because his facade was sometimes so transparent--when he meant the opposite of what he was saying you could tell. Now he's getting more complex.

I find it mildly odd that she would jump into a charged conversation between PS and Snape, and very odd that she would refer to PS' decision to read the pamphlet in terms of "bravery," which to me seems like at least a nod at his audacity and defiance here. The whole thing feels to me like a deliberate, coded signal, though what the key is I don't pretend to know.

Right-on one hand she's saying he's brave for being able to even look at the cut of that cloak, which is typical superficial aristocrat. But that could also be a way of talking about other things. Just to consider the opposite pov, if the robes are code for DEs Narcissa's post could always be more sinister. Snape says this style should stay out of fashion, Narcissa rejects this style but points to a better style equally tied to war and domination by wizards. Not that Narcissa seems very warlike to me. But if she's in love with Lucius she might very well find these kinds of characters dashing.

Now you say it, I do feel like Lucius has made reference to Snape possibly being secretly a spy or something. Either way if Draco actually began any kind of dialogue with Snape about this it seems likeit would be the biggest step he could take. Snape is the person who represents his conflict in ways nobody else does.

See I think he's further along than you do -- I was really gratified by many of his posts over the holiday. I mean, he comes home and refers to his father sarcastically as "notably absent from Hogwarts." He buys his father an Egyptian tomb sculpture for Christmas and laments the lack of a tomb. He hangs out with the Notts and comes back thinking of Nazis and gas chambers. Cumulatively, this is not very subtle!

True but in the past ps has proved himself to be just this dim-witted.;) Thinks of his dealings with sexuality. He was showing a preference for bananas and acting like a very gay boy long before announcing he wanted nothing to do with "queers." His unconscious mind seems to have a habit of running ahead of the conscious one.

I agree, though, that he is obviously making progress if he's flat-out saying, "So, racial superiority in practice. Discuss." And it comes after his second lj meeting with DEs, to which he had a much cooler reaction than the first one. I do love the possible barbs involved in Lucius being "notably absent" from Hogwarts and it being a pity he has no tomb for his statue, but that too might signal a change in his attitude without his having come to a new, consistent view of him.

I was looking back at his post after the first DE meeting, and the differences are pretty interesting. In that post Draco says twice how the lunch with Father went quite well. He mentions "lunch with Father" three times. He also gives details of what Lucius said--Father said he was sure to win the Quidditch cup, Father agreed the rock garden was history, Father says he's old enough to go to luncheons. This time he seems much less freaked out (he prefers Nott to Avery and MacNair, it seems, or at least their wives). He doesn't say anything that was talked about. The first post seems like he's clinging to Lucius to convince himself this was a good idea. As long as Father is pleased this must be a good thing. He just focuses on Lucius. Lucius is much less of a presence in this entry, which begins with Death Camps instead of the announcement of Father Chose To Spend Time With Me After Dinner.

sistermagpie @ January 8 2004, 08:43:42 UTC

I like your observation about sleep -- sleep for PS has been a marker for avoidance of the pressures he is under, if not for a more general depression, maybe.

It's kind of fascinating! Also that in the last term he was usually saying he WAS going to sleep and here he's saying he's not. If I was going to get ridiculously symbolic I'd say this showed he's ready to deal with things now that he wasn't before. He could sink into oblivion (or try, given his dream last term and other trouble sleeping) but he doesn't really care to. He seems almost affectionate (or at least not angry) about Crabbe's snoring--a fine way to end his first day back at Hogwarts. It comes after his claim of missing Malfoy Manor, but I get the sense he's happier here, even if everything's poorer.

I did notice Percy's comment about Wiltshire and definitely wondered if it was related. I was also quite taken with his tale of Paulius the Procrastinator. Paulius being "left to wander" seems like the beginning of true spiritual development to me, so it's interesting Percy is afraid of just that happening to him! I feel like he misses the point of the story in a wonderful way. Go Percy.

sistermagpie @ January 4 2004, 09:00:32 UTC

I've got no idea how Narcissa feels about the potential j_h/ps. She thinks Harry's a nice boy so doesn't have a problem with their friendship, but I've still always gotten the impression she sees Harry primarily for herself and not Draco. That is, she's not like Molly Weasley in having a healthy respect for Ron's relationship with his best friend and wanting to foster it for Ron's well-being. All her overtures to Harry always seem to be advancing herself rather than Draco. In fact she has a history of causing setbacks because of that. Sometimes it now seems like she and Draco have simply gotten into a stalemate of aggressively ignoring the other's relationship with Harry like it doesn't exist.

I wonder if ps and Narcissa are just very alike in wanting to have their cake and eat it, as you brought up before. So she'd be able to approve of his friendship with Harry and his working alongside his father.

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 20:41:55 UTC

All her overtures to Harry always seem to be advancing herself rather than Draco.

Well, this could be more about the awkwardness of the execution than the selfishness of the intent. Narcissa sometimes seems oddly shy around Harry -- or at least she did earlier last year. She says plainly that she didn't expect to like him, that she was surprised that she liked him. But she clearly goes out of her way, over and over, to signal her favor to him. I wonder, though, if she really does this "for herself." I can't see any personal advantage to her in behaving this way -- he's not exactly someone who could be a social ornament for her at the Manor, or even a serious friend given the difference in their ages and experience.

I guess I suspect she is nice to Harry either for Remus' sake, which would be a simple explanation, or for Draco's sake, which gets into the very interesting question of how deeply she reads the PS/JH relationship. But when she uses Harry to convey gifts to Draco, or tries to accompany Draco on a visit to Privet Drive, I can't help reading that as a signal that she approves, specifically, of their friendship. And that in turn feeds into my reading that she is not at all happy about Draco's potential DE career. But that's a whole other issue. Narcissa may be oblivious, sometimes, but I can't imagine her missing the conflict between Lucius' friends and TBWL.

sistermagpie @ January 4 2004, 21:11:31 UTC

I can't see any personal advantage to her in behaving this way -- he's not exactly someone who could be a social ornament for her at the Manor, or even a serious friend given the difference in their ages and experience.


I don't think she necessarily has designs on him on that front. I just mean it seems like whatever she sees in Harry isn't primarily that he's a good friend for Draco. There's been hints that Harry offers her the illusion of a son at times, a way to maybe feel like she's bonding with Draco without the problems that come with that. Also there's Remus, as you said. That's another big reason for her to like Harry. Also she just may like him for similar reasons she likes Remus.

But when she uses Harry to convey gifts to Draco, or tries to accompany Draco on a visit to Privet Drive, I can't help reading that as a signal that she approves, specifically, of their friendship.

I guess I tend to go with Draco on this. He took the visit to Privet Drive to be something she did knowing it would hurt him. I don't consider Draco an authority on everything about Narcissa, but that seemed like something he would know about her. I don't think she disapproves of his friendship with Harry, but I'm not sure exactly how she views it. She thinks Harry's a fine person so presumably this would lead her to thinking he was an appropriate friend for Draco. Also remember Harry has always been very nice to her, which also gives her good reasons to like him. He seemed to be a good listener when she was at DW. Has she ever openly talked about Harry as being friends with Draco?

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 22:40:05 UTC

Has she ever openly talked about Harry as being friends with Draco?

The closest she ever came, I think, was the great outburst after Ron called Draco Harry's boyfriend. Although she seems to strongly support PS' decision to deny the relationship, she also is careful to discourage him from thinking that what Ron said was Harry's fault. I imagine PS must have been furious about her defense of Harry, here. But I can't help thinking that if she's clear-headed enough to figure out that Ron must have come to his own conclusions without Harry, she's also clear-headed enough to assume something is up.

I think we also speculated a while back that N's cultivation of a relationship with Harry might be a bit of a power-play at a time when PS wasn't talking to her. It gave her a button she knew she could push whenever PS annoyed her excessively. But I wonder how much of that is still part of the picture, after all that has happened between PS and Narcissa.

sistermagpie @ January 5 2004, 07:40:46 UTC

But I can't help thinking that if she's clear-headed enough to figure out that Ron must have come to his own conclusions without Harry, she's also clear-headed enough to assume something is up.

Or it was the natural defense of somebody she thought above saying something so crass. If Narcissa just sees Harry as a polite young man I think she'd naturally think he would never say anything like that. Narcissa's views of Harry have never seemed to me to be overly influenced by Draco's in the past.

But I wonder how much of that is still part of the picture, after all that has happened between PS and Narcissa.

I guess everything can still potentially be a power-play for the Malfoys, but I never thought Narcissa's relationship with Harry was completely centered on ps alone. Sometimes she seems to want to see herself as part of Harry's family for her own reasons. If Harry were to up and break ps' heart tomorrow I'm not sure Narcissa would turn against him on ps' behalf.

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 05:41:28 UTC

Just to clarify the point about Draco being in "danger" from his relationship to Harry -- I meant physical danger from Voldemort, not psychological or financial pressure from his father, which is probably a given. Lucius might well disown him (or at least storm and rage and threaten him), but I could see him drawing the line at having V take Draco out.

dari_brit @ January 3 2004, 20:37:18 UTC

I too am loving Narcissa's vagueness. There's a reason why she is a Slyth and DE wife-- she's got no lack of canniness and subtlety. I do read this from the surface: she's proud to see Draco moving into the inner circle. But I like the idea that she's somehow acting the perfect DE wife as a cover for possible intelligence activities or even just for her own personal gain with Lucius. Excellent observations as per usual.

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 05:12:26 UTC

There's a reason why she is a Slyth and DE wife

Oh I like that, and I'm definitely guilty of forgetting it sometimes when she seems unusually obtuse on the surface.

I wonder if she's really straightforwardly "proud" of Draco, though -- what she thinks of the DE's is, to me at least, a huge puzzle given her occasional difficulties with Lucius, her relationship with Remus, and some of her mocking remarks about Voldemort & Co. over time. Not to mention the fight for Draco's allegiance this past summer. She says it's "lovely" that he and Theodore were included in the conversation, but she has a certain bland neutrality that can be devastating -- she certainly cut the elder Malfoys down to size in the previous paragraph. It seems like she said just about the minimum she could have said about Draco being part of the conversation -- and then immediately segued into what might be a kind of creepy reminder about the importance (or at least prudence) of maintaining the appearance of family support for the DEs. I don't know, though -- am I coming from Mars, here?

I'm also sort of mentally playing with what this post might accomplish if she was a spy. Apart from confirming the importance of the Notts, or suggesting that some kind of operation is immanent (it's been a "long time" since they saw the Nott's socially, but suddenly they need to make a detour to visit them; and they don't extend the visit beyond a single meal, but they may be seeing more of them soon.) She's also reporting that Nesta Nott is "supportive" of Tigernach's activities, where some other wives are not -- perhaps she heard details from Nesta. Who might benefit from knowing about Nesta's support or those other divisions?

Eh, reaching at straws here, maybe, but it's fun to spin this out because it creates more questions to ask about Narcissa's future posts. I actually go back and forth between thinking she's 1. a spy for Sirius and Remus; 2. the secret and/or frustrated mastermind of the DE's, impatient with Lucius & Co.'s incompetence; 3. just a society wife happy to indulge her own prejudices as long as they don't cause her and her friends serious inconvenience. But as I said to magpie above, I don't have the first clue what makes Narcissa tick.

vassilissa @ January 4 2004, 19:20:30 UTC

I actually go back and forth between thinking she's 1. a spy for Sirius and Remus; 2. the secret and/or frustrated mastermind of the DE's, impatient with Lucius & Co.'s incompetence; 3. just a society wife happy to indulge her own prejudices as long as they don't cause her and her friends serious inconvenience. But as I said to magpie above, I don't have the first clue what makes Narcissa tick.

You just made me think of something. Maybe she's like Draco, a smart person that doesn't have a clue what she's messing with. She might like pulling strings, following the action with her husband's associates, sometimes doing little things to help her cousin and his friends, but flattering herself that her interests aren't in conflict here.

I mean, she's obviously aware that there's serious *danger* involved here, but does she really get that, deep down? The rest of her life is so hollow, she might think of the whole thing as a game, something she can withdraw from if it gets too costly.

black_dog @ January 4 2004, 20:54:02 UTC

One possibly unfair obstacle to reading Narcissa is the question of how the past year's Narcissa relates to the original Narcissa from spring and summer 2002. In the case of darque_pansy, we have explicit notice from the players that that was a different player, and that the Pansy characterization should not be carried over. But the original Narcissa -- an ass-kicking racist and DE cheerleader who was much stronger than Lucius and held him in utter contempt -- has never been specifically disavowed by the players (to my knowledge). Instead, she went away for some kind of cure in the fall of 2002, and came back in her current, more genteel and subdued incarnation. This is one of those cases where there are genuine meta-issues in the characterization and some player clarification might be helpful (hint, hint!).

So I don't know if my reading of Narcissa is unreasonably influenced by original!Narcissa. What does fascinate me about her is that any time I think I have her in focus, there is always some strong contradictory evidence that won't be explained away. Even in today's post, if we picture her as a society wife in denial, there's that explicit remark about wives in her circle supporting their husbands' business, which explicitly suggests guilty knowledge (and who in the world is that remark directed to?) Her estrangement from Lucius this spring and summer was so convincing and well-motivated that it's hard to take their reconciliation at face value. Her apparent reconciliation with Draco this fall seems at times to be based on them both consciously, and half-facetiously, playing a role. I just always end up thinking that with Narcissa, there's more going on than meets the eye.