ishuca @ April 17 2003, 04:11:42 UTC

i agree.

i'm honestly more horrified by what ron said here than draco's early escape.

yes, he hates PS and was mouthing off, maybe upset that draco didn't have enough respect for lupin to stay and watch. maybe. but what he wrote to PS shows a far deeper lack of understanding for what lupin taught than anything PS wrote.

maybe it's just that today while teaching i had to grapple with a similar attitude that actually had one of my students in tears, but... after everything lupin has done and taught his students, ron's choice of insults is- you know, i can't find words. disappointed doesn't begin to cover it, though rationally one knows a few lessons aren't going to change a lifetime's worth of prejudice. it's only a beginning, but still. unreasonably, i guess, i expected more of ron.

probably overreacting,

~i

milenalupin @ April 17 2003, 05:09:46 UTC

Not overreacting.

The best thing I can think of Ron is being hopelessly, stupidly, cruelly inconsiderate. Maybe he really didn't get what he was writing there.

If he did, ooooooohhhhh... ...

ishuca @ April 17 2003, 06:35:50 UTC

Not overreacting.

:sighs:

makes me feel a bit better, that. i taught a hellish class today, where all but one of my students were just as inconsiderate and cruel as ron. coming home and reading this was like an echo. the difference i'm hoping for is that once ron receives his smackdown he'll listen to and understand it better than my kids did.

that said, i don't envy lupercus the sight of this. regardless of how he deals with ron i wouldn't doubt that he feel like he's come short as a teacher, if ron managed to say something like this. regardless of what you -know- (i.e. the kids take what they will, etc. etc. etc.) there is still the responsibility one has in imparting knowledge. and then for there to be the double blow of it being more personal... *__*

If he did, ooooooohhhhh

i more believe that he didn't- after all knight_to_h3 has a habit of flying off at the mouth- but the fact is that kids can be cruel, oftentimes deliberately. add in his (most likely growing) dislike for PS, and one has to wonder.

even if he didn't mean it i doubt he'll retract it anytime soon- to PS. lupin, of course, is a different matter. not that it changes how disappointing his behavior was.

~i

Anonymous @ April 17 2003, 04:40:05 UTC

I think I dislike Ron enough in canon, but nothing compares to this. Never know Gryffindor could be this heartless. Is it his way to get Harry's attention? Holy Hell!

milenalupin @ April 17 2003, 05:04:10 UTC

Yes. I can understand rivalry and jealousy, even - to a certain point - hate.
But doesn't he think at all about how Remus must feel reading this? Degraded to the worst he can be -the monster he so bravely fights- in order to help Ron get back to Draco?
What about his lesson - his experiences, the shame, the pain (obvious especially in the presentation), the being degraded to a number in a monster statistic, shut off humanity, shunned?
Draco has been mouthing off, sure, and some of what Draco said will hurt Remus, too, but THERE ARE NO WORDS for Ron.


I wonder how Sirius will react. I expect Harry to tell Ron in strong words what he's thinking about his comment. And if I read Severus' concern for Remus right, there will be a detention.

~ Uhm. Would you like an LJ code?

Anonymous @ April 17 2003, 06:14:04 UTC

"Cruelly Inconsiderate", as you mentioned aboved, is quite precise. But if he understood his comment clearly and did it intentionally, God helps me. I shouldn't have a strongly negative feeling toward any fictional characters, it eats me alive.
From Snape and Susan Bones' posts, many students ran out, and had to cope with their nightmares from this event. Will Ron go to badmouth them too? Consider Remus's effort and sacrifice, is it only a bravery contest for him? What a Gryffindor he is! Bravo!!!
Thank you very much for you offer. You are so kind. ^0^ But I really don't want to have lj.
Anyway, thanks again.
- a random lurker who has followed NA obsessively

thegraybook @ April 17 2003, 13:20:29 UTC

Degraded to the worst he can be -the monster he so bravely fights- in order to help Ron get back to Draco?

Right, because Remus has not yet forgiven Sirius for cruelly attempting to use him to kill or at least terrify Snape back in their schooldays. Oh, wait, yes he has actually! And that was much, much worse.

Remus is a lovely man. He will understand. He will deal.

frances_potter @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

milenalupin @ April 17 2003, 06:03:40 UTC

Bwah. Gryffindors don't even know Slytherin's colours. And do a pretty good job with the coward-calling anyway.



Actually I don't mind Ron's calling Draco a wuss. It's the whole "wish he had bitten you" thing I cannot stomach. Mostly because lupercus went through all these troubles to give them a truthful lesson about what it means to be a werewolf - and I think Ron's reaction to Draco is a slap in Remus' face. I want Sirius to throttle him. I want Molly to cover him with howlers. I want McGonagall and Snape to send him into detention until doomsday. (They can take a leaf out of Remus' book.) I want Harry and Hermione to never speak a word with him again. Where are the other prefects??? - Surely they can't leave it like that??

And I'm deeply disappointed with the twins. Instead of telling him off Fred ignored his brother's post. Family loyalty is certainly a good thing, but honestly...

Anonymous @ April 17 2003, 06:38:10 UTC

Cultural reference? Yellow=cowardly.

notapipe @ April 17 2003, 06:48:51 UTC

Heh, this reminds me a stupid thing from elementry school, where a kid would ask "Do you like green?" and then "Do you like yellow?" and if both were answered in the affirmative, would say "You like Green And Yellow. You're gay!"

milenalupin @ April 17 2003, 23:55:11 UTC

O_O

I've never heard a thing like that. Was this a general joke they did with all colours or even other things - asking two questions about different colours/things, and if you answered both of them with yes, the answer was "You like colour (thing) A and B. You're gay!" - or was it speficially green and yellow?

Because, if it was only about Green And Yellow, the jumper on one of Remus's icons has a totally new meaning to me... (before I just thought "eww, bad taste...")

notapipe @ April 17 2003, 23:57:55 UTC

Only Green And Yellow. Because:
G_A_Y
r_n_e
e_d_l
e_._l
n_._o
._._w

milenalupin @ April 18 2003, 00:11:13 UTC

*smacks head*

Sorry, slow on the uptake... *grins sheepishly*

*goes to throw a second look at lupercus's icon now*

Anonymous @ April 17 2003, 08:25:53 UTC

Draco used to say February was cursed, he might change his mind now

When bad things happen to Draco, except Vector, I have no faith in Hogwarts' professors what so ever. The majority of Hogwarts are against him in almost every situation. In this case, probably they might think it's just their standard bickering. I hope I'm wrong. And the twins, what should i expect?

I'm waiting for Harry's reaction

greenapricot @ April 17 2003, 06:01:57 UTC

Ron really, really does need that anger management course. He just doesn't think before he speaks. As much as it galls me that he said it at all I have a feeling he had no idea how bad that sounded, especially to Remus. Grr.

I do hope J_H puts him in his place, for Remus' sake and because then he would be defending PS.

sistermagpie @ April 17 2003, 07:21:01 UTC

Yeah, there's Ron acting out his own worst impulses, mirroring ps in just that way. The two of them are so focused on themselves they just find it so hard to put themselves in another person's shoes before they speak.

I do think, of course, that Ron did not mean to hurt Lupin at all. I think his careless comment shows a couple of things--and this probably comes out of what I've been thinking about ps' post (in my endless spammage of the other thread!). I think Draco really does see himself as able to turn into a werewolf and fears that immensely. In that one way Draco possibly did get the point of the lesson. I think Draco can't help but think of how easy it would be to find himself in that cage--one bite and his family would reject him, he'd be in pain and he'd be a monster.

Ron, imo, had no such realization. He still likes Lupin and respects him, but I don't think he's really made a connection between Lupin and himself in that way. I think Ron still feels "safe" in ways Draco doesn't. Therefore he can make a comment like that, not realizing that had Lupin gotten out of the cage Draco really could have been a werewolf (not that this would happen, just saying that Draco seems to understand just how dangerous a werewolf is and possibly has imagined himself as one).

In our world, essentially, Ron might as well have said, "It would serve you right if you did get infected with AIDS. You'd die quicker." The sentiment of wanting to be rid of Draco would be perfectly fine, but oh, the horror of his misunderstanding about what exactly he's wishing on another person and how he's insulted those who suffer from the disease. I can't really consider myself a better person than Ron overall because he does got qualities I totally admire, but I think the main reason I would never ever say a thing like that is just how keenly I would be aware of how easily it could happen to me. I don't think Ron gets that.

notapipe @ April 17 2003, 07:32:41 UTC

Well, Ron has had Lupin outside that cage, in PoA, and didn't get bitten, so he really doesn't think it would happen to him.

flyby @ April 17 2003, 07:39:37 UTC

Hmm. I hadn't thought of the HIV/AIDS analogy. I shall have to go and think about this now.

sistermagpie @ April 17 2003, 08:29:11 UTC

I don't want to push it too far, actually, because I'm always leery of making big allegorical connections. Obviously having AIDS and being a werewolf are two entirely different things. I was just making the connection that what Ron means really isn't bad at all, but there is more to what he's saying than what he means. Really, it's not like Ron would have said this in another context. He playing directly off of what PS said.

nmalfoy @ April 17 2003, 12:07:28 UTC

Ooh. I like that analogy... the HIV/AIDS one. It's something we in this world can all relate to and react to and it illustrates the hurtfulness of those words. Werewolves don't exist (hopefully) so part of the discussion as to the hurtfulness of Ron's words is academic. But AIDS... that hits close to home.

On an unrelated note, thank you, thank you, thank you for your review of MPI! You were absolutely right in that no, chapter 9 isn't really noir, but I let Draco tell his story his way, rather than force him to stay noir. Believe me, I've wibbled that I'm "losing my noir" but I promised MPI I'd let him tell his story his way. I won't restrain him. I couldn't do that to him.

sistermagpie @ April 17 2003, 16:42:26 UTC

Aw, thank you! That's exactly how it reads, like you're letting him tell his story and just staying out of his way. Everyone in it feels real to me. I'm just glad to get a chance to let you know how much I'm loving it!

kat99999 @ April 17 2003, 08:02:32 UTC

Am I the only one who kind of just thinks Ron was being a normal teenage boy trying to insult something that someone he totally doesn't like did? I don't think he meant to hurt Lupins' feelings at all - certainly he might have caused some insult to others, but in the long run I don't think that Lupin is the sort of character who would take an offhand comment like that to heart anyway. If he's taught Ron for a good year or two, he would probably know by now what he's like just as well as we do. I think Ron is just a bit lonely and even more so jealous of Draco because of his brief interaction with Harry, which Ron doesn't really seem to get anymore.

Just my two cents. :-)

thegraybook @ April 17 2003, 08:20:02 UTC

Am I the only one who kind of just thinks Ron was being a normal teenage boy trying to insult something that someone he totally doesn't like did?

*boggles* No, not at all, I'm frankly baffled at most of these reactions. "Cruelly inconsiderate?" Please. He was just spluttering with anger because of the actually cruelly inconsiderate things *Draco* said about Lupin. Whoever claimed that what Ron said is worse than what Draco said: Dude, you are out of your mind! It's amazing what people are willing to force themselves to forgive Draco - blinded by the bright shiny light of OTP or perhaps Potterstinks' charm? :D

sistermagpie @ April 17 2003, 08:25:34 UTC

Or that because PS has already made himself such a git anything slightly good is siezed upon while Ron, being a good guy, is held to a higher standard?

Ron's comment would be especially unremarkable if it was said in private. I do think it's the type of thing Lupin would naturally really not like to read just because I think honestly he would wince at the words "it would be a good thing if you did become a werewolf" in any situation. But certainly he would knew what Ron really meant--that PS is a jerk. I don't think he'd take it personally.

thegraybook @ April 17 2003, 08:36:27 UTC

I think it would be rather peculiar to hold Ron, whose hallmark seems to be talking long before he thinks about what it was he said, to that particular standard. It's simply what Ron does.

I love potterstinks, but what he said about Lupin was completely foul. Which is not to say it was out of character; it was beautifully in character. I simply notice a tendency to forgive Draco for deliberately horrific behavior while poor old Ron gets gutted for merely misspeaking.

Anonymous @ April 17 2003, 08:41:37 UTC

Methinks you should not be using anymore!

sistermagpie @ April 17 2003, 08:51:09 UTC

I agree it's wrong to hold him to that standard, but I think people do. Ron's instinct in this case, to me, is a good one. And he's not responding to Draco's running out here but Draco's insulting dismissal of the whole incident. Really, Ron's probably saying the obvious truth most people are thinking (and I'm sure even PS knows this). Who at the school wouldn't, if given a vote, rather see PS get bitten than Lupin? PS, as usual, is practically begging for everyone to think exactly what Ron says here in his snotty post. It's totally IC for PS to do that and totally IC for Ron to be the one to say it out loud.

thegraybook @ April 17 2003, 09:06:04 UTC

Oh, I think it's in character for both of them. I wasn't faulting the players, just questioning the reactions. Possibly because I am not on the H/D OTP boat, I regard this sort of thing with a more jaundiced eye? I just thought the vitriol directed at Ron was bizarre. And I don't even like Ron; I can't believe I'm almost the only one defending him! The hagiographic viewpoint on Draco's character taken here is interesting, I suppose, from a social perspective, but looks completely bizarre from my angle.

sistermagpie @ April 17 2003, 09:55:55 UTC

Oh yeah--I didn't think you were faulting the players. I think your puzzlement makes perfect sense. Ron's obviously on Lupin's side here so it's odd to consider what he's saying as worse than Draco is trying to make Lupin feel ashamed for existing. If Lupin said anything to Ron at all I don't think it would be a reprimand but a comment in the tone of, "Well, no it wouldn't be a good thing if he became a werewolf but I appreciate the sentiment, Ron."

But in general, besides the H/D which rather demands PS not be a complete idiot too dumb to really understand what Lupin is going through, I think PS has bought himself a lot of leeway that Ron hasn't simply because PS is the brat he is. It's like the way if a D student brings home a C+ the parents might be thrilled and if an A student brings home a B- the parents are disappointed. It's not fair, but there it is. And, as Aja said, Ron is Lupin's friend. But then, so was Sirius and he rather thoughtlessly also used his being a werewolf to teach Snape a lesson. Ron's words, imo, wouldn't hurt Lupin so much as just underline the gap that will always exist between him and his students. Ron can lightly speak about being bitten in ways Lupin can not.

The question now is how Ron and Draco's werewolf project is going to turn out...

bookshop @ April 17 2003, 09:05:01 UTC

I don't know, Casslet, I perfectly agree with you that what Draco said was atrocious--and also, by now, we should expect it of him. Really. Draco is not a nice person except in the *rarest* of circumstances.

However, I think the reason people are reacting so horribly to what Ron said is that we *expect* it from Draco. We expect Ron to taunt Draco, yes, but we don't expect him to so horribly insult his favorite teacher, someone he loves and whose pain has just been so grippingly detailed for us. I think the reason people are more shocked by what Ron said is due to his close connection to Lupin, not his actual statement.

I'm torn about Sister M's AIDS analogy. I think the spirit of the analogy is right, in terms of our reaction to it anyway. But especially I like it because it highlights the fact that Ron probably didn't know what he was saying, he was just spouting off at the mouth like he always does. He, far worse than Draco, has an incredible tendency to just fly off the handle and say horrible awful things without thinking. At least with Draco you know he means the awful things he says, or at least thinks he means them; Ron is forever saying things he doesn't mean and is then too proud to take them back even though he probably feels awful for them.

So really, I feel like this is absolutely IC-behaviour from both of them and we should have expected it. But because of the emotions caused by Lupin's post and the fact that Ron is close to him and has seen some of this pain close-up, I don't think the readers were prepared for it. Their reactions seem to be more of a shocked response to the fact that this is Ron saying this and inadvertently deeply insulting his friend--rather than an attempt to say that what Ron said is in actuality worse than what Draco said.

thegraybook @ April 17 2003, 09:07:15 UTC

Meh. I think Lupin is bright enough to take the source into account. I don't think he'll be deeply insulted. In fact, if he reprimands Ron at all, I will happily eat my television set.

altricial @ April 17 2003, 12:00:11 UTC

I think! Ahem. I think, what Ron is saying is, "It is highly retarded and rude to leave the class halfway because Professor Lupin is obviously harmless and deserves more respect than that. Also, it is totally unfair that a nice person like him has to go through this while a rotten person like Draco who deserves a worser fate is being left scot-free." That, when translated into Ron!speak, becomes, "DIE MOTHERFUCKER DIE!!!"

siren52684 @ April 17 2003, 16:01:10 UTC

YES! yesyesyes, i agree wholeheartedly.

i don't think this comment (ron's) was meant in response to fear of repulsion of lupin's werewolf-ness, but more as a "malfoy, you stupid FUCK!" kind of thing...

altricial @ April 17 2003, 16:29:26 UTC Re:

*beams*

kat99999 @ April 17 2003, 10:51:29 UTC Re:

Yay, it's nice to see someone is with me at least. :-)

The last thing I see Ron as is cruelly inconsiderate, because that would indicate that is vindictive on purpose rather than, as I see it, accidentally insulting. All the times he and Harry have fallen out in canon have mostly been because he said something unintentionally insulting or reacted in a way that he thought was acceptable and perhaps wasn't. I think he's one of the most innocent characters in the HP-verse, at least in terms of his intentions and especially in this case, I think he was just trying to get the upper hand with someone (Draco) who has always managed to do the same with him.

Anonymous @ April 17 2003, 08:29:32 UTC

!!!

moony @ April 17 2003, 13:51:41 UTC

I am thinking that a lot of the problem is that some of you want the characters to be perfect all the time, or likeable or redeemable in some way, when in fact even in canon the 'good' characters are not like that. Everyone is flawed - Hermione can be too clinical and distant, Ron is tempermental, Harry shows poor judgement, Sirius and Snape hold grudges that cloud their thinking, Hagrid lets his desire for an exotic pet overcome his common sense - even Lupin is flawed, in that he chose not to tell Dumbledore that Sirius is an Animagus out of fear that Albus would be disappointed in him. No-one in the books is perfect, and a lot of people seem to have forgotten that, I think.

I mean, Ron's an insensitive jerk in canon, half the time. *shrug* Remember the row with Hermione over dates for GoF where he was every inch the clueless and insulting fourteen year old boy? Remember his jealousy overcoming his friendship with Harry? And it's not always negative, either - he acted before thinking when he tried to curse Malfoy for calling Hermione a Mudblood, and wound up belching slugs.

It's what gives him *depth*. It gives all of them depth. Eventually all of the characters will show their weaker sides at some point or another - in canon as well as NA - and I wonder will everyone rail against them then? People who sing Lupin's praises now, would you still like him if he ever loses control? Perhaps Terry is likeable now, but what happens when he does something reprehensible? Will you still use your purple icons with pride then?

That's the thing about friends. They're your friends because of their flaws, not just despite them, you know? And I think that applies here - you read them for their mistakes as much as their triumphs. That's what makes the books (and NA) stand out, for me anyway.

And Harry, when he shows his vindictive side, he recieves praise when really he's no better than Ron when he goes off on someone. It's just a facet of his personality you don't see from him so often, so it's encouraged. That's sort of a double-standard, I think. It's all right from Harry because he's tragic, but from Ron it's got no deeper meaning than him just being an idiot? That isn't fair.

Human beings are capable of the most malignant behaviour imaginable. At the same time they can show more grace and dignity than you thought possible. NA's characters are as real as their players can make them, and to read them I think means taking the good with the bad. They may let you down now, but don't write them off - they may surprise you later on.

As for Lupin - Ron and Sirius are, actually, a lot alike in that they are driven by their emotions and tend to think more with their hearts than their heads, and definitely do not often think about the fallout of their actions, and obviously Lupin understands that in Sirius, and I expect that will come into play to however Lupin reacts, if he reacts at all.

:-)

karabou @ April 17 2003, 16:00:24 UTC

How very well put, Moony.

dayafternext @ April 17 2003, 16:41:03 UTC

Amen.

*snuggleloffspraisesendlessly*

milenalupin @ April 18 2003, 02:22:23 UTC

Well, I can't speak for everyone, of course, but actually I don't the NA (or books) characters perfect all the time at all. I admit (*blush*) that I like the opportunity of having minor explosions of the misbehavious of characters. I like Draco's bratness, Ron's thickheadedness, Lucius's Grade-A-A-hole Arrogance (TM), and I would NOT want any of the players play their character in a less in-character version. As for Harry... I'm constantly teasing some of my "Harry-is-the-most-lovely-person-on-Earth" author friends with canon counterproof. I do see his faults, but I don't dislike them.
Brought to a point - cudos especially for the Ron player for playing their characters as brilliant as they do.

Still - the fun about NA for me as a just_watcher is being able to react emotionally to what the characters do (Note: not the player, I'm watching characters!). That's not fair all the time. Of course not. Especially not, if they step on my wrong toe.
I share some of Ron's worst traits of character (as in: acting without thought when I cross a certain border of annoyance). That's what I did yesterday, when I placed this post - I read the clinical description of Hermione, I read Lupin's lesson - then I read Draco's post - and Ron's reply. And posted and replied my early comments.

Even yesterday, I could see that - under fair consideration - Draco wasn't better, but I still think what Ron (note: totally in character) replied reads worse for me. Because I think Lupin would have expected fright and panic and reactions like Draco's and Susan Bones's, seeing a reply that practically wishes his horrible fate to another student - after all the humiliation, and pain (he didn't even take any potions to ease the transformation in order to give them this lesson) - wouldn't he wonder, if he really managed to show them his point? Wouldn't he (adding insult to injury) wonder, if he failed as a teacher?

I know Remus can cope, and he certainly won't hold it against Ron (much?), but I have the feeling that he might be deeply disappointed nontheless. He learned to cope with human behaviour the hard way a long time ago.
Note - these are my thoughts. Remus might disagree, or totally surprise me *winks*. Actually, Remus is generally a much nicer and wiser person than I am. :-)