anamirza @ April 19 2003, 08:08:57 UTC

How funny - I just commented on that line about Ron (which also seems a bit of a dig at Draco as well) in a thread below. It is rather sharp, isn't it?

Partly, I think Harry's empathy maybe made him more affected by Lupin's transformation - Harry too has these parts of himself that he can't exactly control, that aren't quite normal, and that can be quite painful. Maybe Harry's monster is his connection to Voldermort, and maybe he worries that that could take him over, as the wolf overtakes Lupin (I was wondering if that's where Hermione's comment on the scar came from.)

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 08:52:58 UTC

I think the scar comment comes from the fact Harry said his head hurt. My guess is that his head was on the wrong end of a "bat", ot more probably a "gulf" ball!
I hope Potterstinks and him had a good time playing, though.

~Catia

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 08:56:14 UTC

I like the Gulf explanation best. :D

(I couldn't quite figure out what Hermione was talking about - doesn't Harry usually specify that it's his scar when his scar hurts? Maybe he's getting older and more subtle...)

Do you want an LJ code? I have some.

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 18:34:41 UTC Thanx

Oh, that would be nice, thanks. I could post the few HP fanart I've done...

catiadoodle @ hotmail.com

~Catia

shusu @ April 19 2003, 09:11:06 UTC

which also seems a bit of a dig at Draco as well

See below.

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 09:19:59 UTC

Well, I thought maybe he was referring to his exchange of comments with Draco where Draco said something like "Oh, I wasn't scared." Though it's clear that he was, and j_h knows this - I thought maybe j_h was chiding him for pretending like nothing happened, i.e., that he wasn't actually scared. I'm not quite sure how to interpret j_h's final "Oh, okay" in that comment exchange, I guess is what I'm saying. Is that, "It's okay; I understand you completely", or is it more like "um, right, sure you weren't", or is it "oh, be like that then"?

Whether it's a reference to Draco is sketchy though. Maybe to someone else? Or maybe, many other people, who are just going on about their lives again?

Definitely a dig at Ron though, as it throws his words right back at him, and Ron misses it utterly. Well, I'm sure it will be clarified.

shusu @ April 19 2003, 09:32:54 UTC

But that very exchange shows Harry on higher ground than Draco. He's not openly upset with Draco... he's understanding. For those of you who aren't familiar, j_h has been using basic conflict-resolution techniques. Throw the question back at the person making a fuss, be patient, be calmer than them.

And last but not least, break off when you're not getting anywhere, and wait till later. Hence the "Oh, okay." It leaves it open for PS to make another dig at j_h, or it leaves it open for the conversation to stop. Non-judgmental and neutral.

Two guesses who taught him how to do that.

"Oh, I wasn't scared," is so transparent that Harry doesn't even dispute it. It reads in context as a clear deflection. The other werewolf reaction entries, on the other hand, are not deflections... they're plain statements of fact.

In canon and in NA Harry is *very* clear about showing displeasure and anger. Based on his recent exchanges with Draco, he's anything but displeased with him.

On the other hand, after reading all the werewolf reactions, Harry has clearly lost patience with Ron and everyone else who belittled or avoided the emotional impact of the transformation. PS did not do that... he had a strong reaction. A *negative* reaction, yes, one which a lot of us were disturbed by. But Harry doesn't say "people who thought it was gross or disgusting or scary."

Anyway, feel free to correct me if I'm off, because I'm fuzzy-headed.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 10:09:47 UTC

Wow--you said that brilliantly! That's just what I think. Not only does Harry's description here not fit Draco, who was the first to post that the transformation was horrible horrible horrible and no one should be subjected to it, but it's clear Harry not only knows why Draco was frightened but why he is pretending he wasn't. I took his question here to Ron to be pretty sincere: he really can't understand the attitude Ron's shown. (And possibly the twins as well? But I don't think they're the focus of it.)

shusu @ April 19 2003, 11:15:26 UTC coping with trauma

Thank you. ^^

Yes, Harry feels pain very acutely and empathically, I think. It's like the scene in canon with the Avada'd spiders... I recall Ron halted his "Cool!" comments there too. Having experienced what he has, it is a leap for him to understand that people will need to deflect pain in order to cope with it, whereas he has been face-to-face with pain all his life.

For some reason, thinking of Ron's comment after meeting Sirius in the "Padfoot Returns" chapter... he must love you, eating rats all that time. Ron has that fairly innocent adolescent-boy reaction, which is actualy more normal. There's "squicky" and there's "wicked cool" and not much in between. That doesn't mean there aren't similar feelings roiling beneath, but perhaps as with PS, Ron is using his same old defense mechanisms to deal with (not-so-new) things.

And I need to add this post to memories because I just linked back to my handful of coherent posts.

And we should rename NrAged as that place where the LJ codes grow on trees XD

dahlia_777 @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

ex_delz @ April 19 2003, 09:01:08 UTC

Why are you even surprised he'd make fun of Professor Lupin?! I could've told you that!


Well, happy Easter.

It appears Ron is thinking Harry's talking about Draco.
*puts on helmet and prepares for smackdown*

shusu @ April 19 2003, 09:09:53 UTC

Wait wwaaait. "And I don't know what's wrong with some people who act like nothing happened or like it was cool or fun or something."

Draco DIDN'T act like nothing happened or that it was cool or fun. He was SCARED. Even if I'm wrong and he wasn't afraid for Lupin, it seems as though j_h is not including Draco in that blanket statement.

Am I just crazed with hope?

flyby @ April 19 2003, 09:13:48 UTC

::is also crazed with hope:: No, I don't think he was referring to Draco - certainly not mainly, anyway. He meant Ron, and Ron just really really doesn't get it.

zorb @ April 19 2003, 09:15:49 UTC

When I read that, I thought j_h was only referring to Draco. It sounds to me like something happened when he went to give him the golf book. Whether that was whatever Filch posted about or whether it was some comment about Lupin, I don't know.

Of course, then there's the oh-so-innocent insinuations that they should stay at Hogwarts longer...

*wibbles*

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 09:29:01 UTC

No, I think the main target there was Ron, who calls the transformation "wicked cool". Maybe it's the sort of thing that would really rile Harry because it's also Ron's attitude, at least originally, toward his scar. Which is at once an amazing vote of confidence (as someone said below), meaning, Ron knows it's really Professor Lupin and thus displays utter faith in him, but also entirely and completely misses the pain and hurt that go along with both being a werewolf and having a scar from the night your parents were murdered and which ties you to your worst enemy.

I did originally think "like nothing happened" referred to Draco pretending not to be scared, but maybe it refers to Draco, only to something else, like the London outing not happening. Maybe things are not moving along as j_h would like. Am I over-analysing this? Yes. Should I go and work instead? Yes. :D

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 11:22:37 UTC

Which part? The "Am I overanalysing? Yes. Should I go write my paper? Yes." part ? :D

Really off to write paper now. Just watch.

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 11:27:01 UTC

Hahaha no! The parts before that part!

shusu @ April 19 2003, 09:34:15 UTC LOL

WAaaaii I'm not typing that again!

zorb @ April 19 2003, 09:45:55 UTC Re: LOL

Oh, I'm with you on that part. I just thing something happened after that exchange, that we didn't see "onscreen".

*shrugs*

Could be wrong, of course. But j_h sounds too wibbly to me to have just come back from a night of fun and gulf with his sweetie.

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 09:51:52 UTC Re: LOL

But j_h sounds too wibbly to me to have just come back from a night of fun and gulf with his sweetie.

Yes, there isn't much of a light-hearted or happy tone there, is there? Poor j_h. Falling in love with the self-deluded/in denial is just not a happy path to go down, I guess.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 10:22:38 UTC Re: LOL

I think the wibbliness has a lot to do with Lupin though. Harry himself, imo, was very affected by the tranformation and he's just now processing it. Having been through so much trauma before I think this is how Harry deals: of course he could stay through the whole tranformation stoically, but as time passed I think it started to upset him more and more as he thought about it.

One thing I think is really interesting is the things people noted about it. Harry focused on how painful it looked. Hermione and Draco both mentioned the leg chewing but in different tones. Hermione did wonder, "Is that quite safe?" but she was still very clinical about it. For Draco it seemed to be the last straw: "He nearly chewed his own leg off!" The leg chewing was the worst for me too. I hate the idea of someone hurting *themselves* in such a way. That Draco was so horrified by that says to me that the emotional trauma of the transformation on Lupin wasn't lost on him, even if it was in the context of imagining himself doing that should he be bitten.

Draco sucks at hiding his emotional state but, perhaps unfortunately, Harry is better at it. I think we're seeing real sorrow from Harry here because of what Lupin has to go through. And Draco is presumably not in that much of a state to help, given that his world was falling apart by the time Harry showed up with the book. Both of them are worried about their families so I doubt either was in a mood to criticize the others at that point. Given how important Lupin is to Harry I think he can easily take Draco's bluster (especially since Draco, if you notice, left Lupin the man pretty much alone in his post and just commented on the wisdom of bringing a transformed werewolf into the Great Hall) but would have a much harder time with Ron saying he enjoyed watching his father-figure in pain.

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 11:20:26 UTC Re: LOL

I think it's true that a lot of the wibbliness has to do with the way Harry reacts emotionally - and this is the first time we've seen an actual post from him since the incident, other than the comments he made in journals. The comments he made in journals were restrained, but made it clear that it was a very frightening experience for him.

I do think - as I noted above - that Lupin's transformation would bother Harry because it would touch on something he feared a lot, just as Lupin's transformation obviously bothered Draco - as I'm sure everyone except Ron could tell - because it touched on some personal fear there. I mean, when something awful happens to someone else, sometimes you just feel awful for the person because it's a horrible circumstance, and sometimes you feel frightened as well, because it relates to you personally in some way - it's something that could have happened to you, or would destroy your life if it did. Watching _Hilary and Jackie_, for example, sent me into days of black despair in a way that other, more objectively depressing movies did not - because what happens to Jackie is akin to a deep personal fear of mine. I see Draco's reaction as entirely the second - feeling frightened- and Harry's as motivated by empathy - and a bit of fear as well, though he is better at mastering his fear than Draco is.

And as I said above, I think that Ron's remark would really bother Harry particularly, more even than someone who would just see it as uncaring, "missing the point" or whatever. Because that's kind of how Ron treats Harry sometimes, isn't it? It's very cool, being so special, having the wicked scar, whatever. And while it's nice that he has this faith in his friends or people he looks up to, it's also just a little bit ... well, it sort of seems to dismiss the pain and hurt that goes along with being 'special' in the way that Harry is. Because in addition to being 'unique', it's also amazingly tragic.

So I can imagine Harry being disappointed in Malfoy's reaction, not because he's afraid or disgusted, but because Malfoy's trying to hide his reaction and not appear emotionally affected by events. I mean, j_h is really trying to make some connection with ps and, on this topic anyway, does not seem to be succeeding. j_h clearly understands ps well, but understanding alone doesn't make a relationship. You also have to be understood, or at least, I think j_h wants ps to understand and like him. ps - at least on the comments and journal entries - seems sometimes to understand but most times, no, he really doesn't. Or pretends not to - hard to tell with ps, at times.

And finally - j_h has been obsessing over ps for weeks now. No overt mention of ps in this post at all. I just find it ... odd. Either things are going so amazingly well with ps that he's unwilling to comment - and then that in itself would be depressing, since ps doesn't seem to be helping him at all emotionally vis a vis the transformation and others' reactions to it - or things are same as before, i.e., not all that great. So it doesn't strike me as unlikely at all that some part of that post would be a veiled comment to Draco. It does seem to be how they communicate sometimes, such as j_h's 'Colin remembers things from years ago' comment. Little, hidden comments that only ps would get.

OK, really going to write paper now.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 11:56:28 UTC Re: LOL

Excellent point! I totally agree. I think at this point Harry's relationship with ps is work more than anything else. Work that will hopefully pay off, but work nonetheless. I think he wants to be able to discuss how frightening Lupin's tranformation was and it's got to be very wearying that ps has slipped into, "Nope, wasn't scared at all. Next subject." Even if Harry understands him he'd probably like to be the person who didn't have to do all the understanding for once. This is another reason I hope Draco does end up having to spend some time with Lupin over Easter because Lupin might be able to help with that. If Lupin is willing to talk about how he is scared, and Harry says he is scared, and Sirius says he is scared ps might just feel okay enough to talk about his own fears. I'm heartened a little by Draco's response to Harry saying the whole room was scared. That ps said, "I merely left the class early," is at least free from aggression.

Brilliant points on Harry's message to Ron as well, you're absolutely right. This is just what hurts him about being friends with Ron, as understandable from Ron's pov as it is.

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 11:29:56 UTC Re: LOL

And I just wanted to clarify - as zorb does as well - that having a comment like that directed (partly) at Draco doesn't necessarily mean that j_h is upset with ps over his reaction to the transformation, but could imply that he is annoyed with him over something else. That is what I'm trying to say in the last paragraph of the long comment I just posted here.

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 09:46:02 UTC Re: LOL

Clearly we need a best_of_nraged community, to keep all the threads organized! :D

I think you are probably right about how to interpret "Oh, okay" - it wasn't clear to me at the time, though, particularly as I personally use that phrase a lot, in a kind of rushed and annoyed way, to mean "fine, be like that, I'm not going to argue it here." So that probably left me with the feeling that Harry was a bit disappointed or annoyed, and maybe he wasn't - maybe he was trying to get Draco to face his fears and ps is just not ready for that.

shusu @ April 19 2003, 10:56:14 UTC ramblies

That's the Midwest 'okay'. Up there with 'nice.' Oh, isn't that nice.. ;) I think "Okay" is getting up there with "gulf". So many NA-meanings! :DD

I did a preliminary post of my favorite threads, but it would be easier if things were filed into Memories.

ex_delz @ April 19 2003, 09:23:21 UTC

He is definetely not. Remember what Ron said about it,
"The transformation last night was wicked cool, don't know why some people freaked the hell out, it's just Professor Lupin, what's the worst that can happen?!"
Ron is just...spacey sometimes, I suppose. And Draco wasn't making fun of Lupin he was just being a scaredy cat and fleeing the scene.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 10:00:23 UTC

That was definitely my interpretation. PS has a lot to answer for with his obnoxious post explaining the event but even there you wouldn't describe him as acting like nothing happened or that it was cool. Draco's on record as saying it's horrifying. And even when he spoke to Harry and pretended not to be scared he was only referring to his own reaction, not what happened. His whole cover attitude was to say that this event was dangerous and awful and they shouldn't have been subjected to it and that he left in a silent protest (rather than sheer terror).

I don't see why he'd change that story when he was with Harry. No matter how much he pushed his, "I wasn't scared," pretense I don't think he'd have pretended he thought it was cool. That would be a 180 degree turn from his original story.

moonlitpages @ April 19 2003, 10:09:47 UTC

That was definitely my first impression when I read Harry's remark (so many threads to wade through *falls over*). Draco definitely didn't act like nothing happened or that it "was cool or fun or something".

I could have died. I could have been turned into a werewolf.

As much as Draco did throw out offensive comments rooted mostly in the fact that he does not trust Lupin or Sirius to keep him safe, I think that he most certainly did take the lesson seriously as he was scared shitless by it. Ron, however, attempted to give the impression that he was sitting around eating popcorn. Not that I don't love the little bugger (Ron), of course. I think Ron's lackadaisical attitude about it is rooted mostly in that he trusts Lupin and Sirius implicitly, and doesn't see what the big deal is as he knows they would never let him get hurt. Draco, however, has no such trust of authority figures (can't imagine why).

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 09:19:44 UTC

I laughed so hard when reading Ron's comments.
Not sure whether he's not getting it or want to make Harry crazy.

dahlia_777 @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 09:24:11 UTC

I think he really doesn't get it.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 10:51:30 UTC

Yeah, he doesn't get it. If he was trying to get to Harry and *did* get it he wouldn't be insensitive to Lupin in the process. He's just clueless. And oh, it's just so painful that he thinks Harry's talking to Draco here--because Ron's apparently clueless about Draco as well (not understanding the depth of Draco's reaction that other people can plainly see).

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 12:04:20 UTC

I assume that Ron'd already read Harry's comment on Draco's post. Harry's tone was so supportive. And in Ron's latest post, he sarcastically attack H/D ' friendship. So why does Ron think Harry's talking about Draco instead of someone else?

But after reading their latest exchange of comments , you're right, Ron is unbelievably clueless.

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 12:10:10 UTC

Maybe he thought Harry "came to his senses" and realises Draco is the enemy? Ron is obsessed with Draco whether in canon or fanon, so it is not surprising that he links that comment to Draco.

--

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 10:21:45 UTC poor Harry, poor Ron

I saw Harry's line as a dig at Ron too, even if Ron didn't catch on at all.

Which of course is Ron's main problem: he's so oblivious even if he is all-around a good-hearted sweetie.

I mean, it can't help that Ron is obviously in the loving bosom of his large, boisterously happy family, while Harry is at Hogwarts not allowed to see a pained Remus by a distracted and sleep-deprived Sirius.

And Hermione went too, even though she's technically broken up with Ron. It just reminds me of the heart-breaking Christmas when Ron DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE that Harry wasn't coming along with him.

Ron and Hermione are wonderful and sweet kids, I just think that perhaps because they've had such normal and happy lives that there are certain things they just don't get about Harry (and Remus... and anyone else that's had to deal with bad crap on a long-term, regular basis). They don't even think to be sensitive to certain things because it's all just outside the range of their experience.

The recent Malfoy fight probably only makes Harry feel that someone like Draco might have more in common with him. Misery loves company and all that... although it does seem that potterstinks has had a pretty pain-free and cosseted life, so maybe I'm giving that more weight than I should...

My poor orphan!Harry... no one can understand your pain :(
*pets Harry*



and this has been bothering me, but what is this face supposed to mean?
:-------------------------------Z

What is the "Z" as a mouth indicate?
http://www.livejournal.com/community/nocturne_alley/122459.html

Goyle is such a mystery... hanging out with Lavender and Colin...it hurts my brain to imagine the interactions...

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 10:31:51 UTC Re: poor Harry, poor Ron

I don't think your theory's far off at all. I don't think Draco's life has really been pain-free at all, with those parents. It's not the kind of pain that Ron, certainly, could really see but I think j_h is starting to get it. Once you see ps's talk of being fantastically loved and pampered for the front it is he becomes a much deeper person.

Of course poor Harry has to get through that front--ps is still far from being the friend he could be to Harry. But it makes sense to me that Harry would have, by now, realized his potential in contrast to Ron and Hermione (as good friends as they are). Remember even Hermione started out her post with, "Don't think me insensitive..." Eventually of course she showed that she *was* sensitive, but I think her reaction still had something in common with Ron's in the way it didn't haunt her because she avoided the worst of the emotional fallout.

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 11:03:53 UTC Re: poor Harry, poor Ron

I'm not sure how much anyone except for Harry, Sirius and perhaps Snape really had "the worst of the emotional fallout."

I think Hermione's response to Lupin's transformation shows that she was pretty affected at the time--both by the scariness of the werewolf and the obvious pain. It's just that, like most people would, she's trying not to dwell on something that disturbed her and that she can't do anything about.

"Harry and I stayed for the full half-hour, but I was shaking by the time we left. I don't think I'll be pulling a late night in the library tonight... I'm nearly finished with my project, but I feel like curling up in bed with a good book to try and get my mind off things."

Hermione can distract herself with a book. Others, like Draco and Ron are dealing with the event with denial, not examining etc... only people that have a big stake in Remus' life and care about him inescapably get the brunt of it.

But Hermione tries her best:

"Harry, do let me know if Professor Lupin recieves a parcel from the Burrow! He'll likely not feel well enough to give us a reply.

And take care! Is your scar bothering you?"

It just only goes so far.


As for ps's (heh, I accidentally wrote pms the 1st time...) "front"... well that's one of the most pivotal points of how redeemable/savable/evil/good Draco really is. I go back and forth on how much of it is front... or if the front covers some generally decency or just a scared little boy.

Narcissa obviously adores and spoils her little boy, and Lucius has always been generally strictly approving and indulgent (gloves, brooms for the quidditch team). Now, Narcissa is also self-absorbed and Lucius seems not the type to give hugs, but does that translate to "pain" or just normally imperfect parents?

(am discounting the fact that Lucius is no doubt irredeemibly eeevil, since I don't think it's shown up in his relations to *Draco*.... yet)

shusu @ April 19 2003, 11:27:07 UTC judging Draco

I agree with all your points... but I think the implicit assumption that PS can turn on a dime from "irredeemable" to "salvaged" is a bit flawed. We are watching a character in flux, whose whole upbringing discourages sudden character changes. The general feeling that we can thumbsup/thumbsdown him on the basis of a few posts is rather ... well, okay, it disturbs me greatly. Having worked with children, I know it's the gradual changes which are more likely to stick. Kids are more hurt by being trapped in labels than giving them another chance to make something of it.

We're sitting here judging Narcissa and Lucius and Draco's coping mechanisms and Draco's alleged sense of decency and even Draco's sexual orientation, when it's not done yet.

I think that's the key difference between reading subtext from canon/fanfic and reading it in the RPG form. Things are anything but static right now; I find it hard to fathom arguments based on a "Is he good now? Is he grown up now?" measure.

And yes, my inner thesaurus shut down. :p

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 11:45:49 UTC Re: judging Draco

Oh, very good point. This is very much how I see Draco in canon as well, that he seems to have been judged and sentenced already based on the fact that he didn't drop all his old habits and beliefs within minutes of arriving at Hogwarts. Or that he adopted them at all. Especially since it's easy to point to Harry's rotten upbringing and suggest that if he turned out okay Draco should too, when really they're too different people in two different situations.

It's always seemed to me that PS/Draco's behavior made perfect sense to him based on his natural personality and his environment. He's adapted perfectly well to his home environement--that's never been so obvious as it has been since the duel. He already had coping mechanisms in place for Lucius cutting him off; look how smoothly he slipped into them. I see nothing to indicate that his personality by itself would always be "bad" no matter who his parents were. There's plenty in Draco and ps which is salvageable and changeable, imo. It may happen naturally. But it also might take a focused, sustained effort by someone willing to take the time to who him a better way on his own terms. I think every kid deserves that.

shusu @ April 19 2003, 12:00:58 UTC just for RL emphasis

But it also might take a focused, sustained effort by someone willing to take the time to who him a better way on his own terms. I think every kid deserves that.

YES.

Potter canon/rpg/fandom aside, yes.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 12:07:39 UTC Re: just for RL emphasis

LOL--sorry, I'm just realizing how incoherent that sentence is. That of course should read, "to SHOW him a better way." Honestly, I don't know what my problem is.

But I still stand by the sentiment.

shusu @ April 19 2003, 12:09:08 UTC Re: just for RL emphasis

LMAO, yes I just realized it too! Sorry *^_^*

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 12:05:27 UTC Re: judging Draco

(no need for a thesaurus... you made your point quite well!)

urk. I didn't mean to say: "here is the ultimate judgment forever." Just trying to take the info we've been given so far (which of course is all incomplete and biased to boot) and make some sense out of it.

If I am guilty of the "Is he good now? Is he grown up now?" arguements... urk, apologies. I do not mean to seem to handing out a final, ironclad judgment, just trying to figure things from *evidence* we've read up 'til this point, without giving in too much to my *wish* that he really be a big woobie and try to explain him all away with "well he might have done this when no one saw" or "he's really nice deep down even though he never acts like it" or "it's all the fault of the parents."

I know it's all still in flux, which is probably why my thoughts change back and forth all over the place as new things happen or I read an interesting interpretation. (and... I was unclear, but I don't mean from 100% evil to 100% good)


And 16-17... very changing, fraught ages. On the one hand hormones and still very much a child, but on the other... cusp of adulthood and the beginning of being completely responsible for your own actions.

shusu @ April 19 2003, 12:15:27 UTC Re: judging Draco

*nods* You do make a good point that there are all kinds of factors pulling on Draco... at war for his soul, it seems sometimes! Sorry if I got all crackly at you... personal squicks, and I've seen it in other threads dealing with how sympathetic he is.

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 12:29:27 UTC Re: judging Draco

Oh I find Draco more sympathetic than I think is good for me...

...which is probably why I overcompensate and try to be all objective concerning his accountability for his behavior.

And I get very prickly myself when I think I see him being all glossed over and excused (my own hot button).

But then it's good to read another take on it... after all, if I'm being silly/jumping to conclusions/oversimplifying, it's good to know.

:)

*sends happy vibes*

anamirza @ April 19 2003, 12:54:36 UTC Re: judging Draco

there are all kinds of factors pulling on Draco... at war for his soul, it seems sometimes!

I think this is why a lot of people are intrigued by Draco in canon - it seems like the real "war" in HP is for the hearts and minds of the children at Hogwarts. It seems sometimes you are watching that battle be fought. And while in canon it seems that Draco has made a clear choice...some of his actions really are not so clear when you examine them, or when you look at what must motivate him (e. g. seeking parental approval). And it would be interesting to see more of that.

This all just reminds me that I'm dying to read Book V to see where JKR takes the characters. I wonder how much personal darkness Harry will have to deal with, for example, and how much of the war will be in Harry himself. Because honestly, there were moments in Book IV where he really frightened me. But now I'm fully off-topic, so to bring it back to NA, that is one of the things that amazes me most about NA - how canon-accurate the characters are, when the temptation to Mary Sue must be high (I assume - I've never actually been in an RPG). It's such an amazing exploration of the characters and how they might relate to each other in situations not depicted in the novels - it's like reading more JKR, only, as it happens. No wonder I'm addicted to it.

PS - have now tried to post this comment 3 times. Hope it doesn't go through all 3 times. Mods should feel free to delete extras if it does.

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 13:00:17 UTC Re: judging Draco

*agrees with everything you said*

I love your posts, btw... always find good points and grasp of canon and interesting theory

:)

sistermagpie @ April 19 2003, 11:35:25 UTC Re: poor Harry, poor Ron

Yes, I totally agree about Hermione. Her post shows her clearly being overcome by the experience because she stops taking her notes pretty quickly. I realize now I may have sounded like I was saying Hermione was too cut off emotionally. What I really mean is more that Hermione does understand the horror of Lupin's going through but that she is with Ron in being able to feel "safe" herself.

As for ps, I don't think scared little boy is too far from common decency. Even in canon Draco strikes me as someone who expects the world to be "fair" (as he defines the term) and Lucius to be right in a very innocent way. The way ps completely refuses to acknowledge Lucius' bad treatment says to me that this is a kid who has internalized the idea that he deserves to be treated that way. In canon, that he constantly talks about how loved he is (and accuses Harry of not being wanted at home) just indicates to me that this feeling is very familiar to him in ways it isn't to someone like Ron. Knowing from a very early age that you are possibly not wanted for yourself by your parents is, imo, very painful. And something you have to live with your whole life. PS's way of responding to it is only one of many, but I think it is a response to it.

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 12:14:51 UTC Re: poor Harry, poor Ron

Knowing from a very early age that you are possibly not wanted for yourself by your parents is, imo, very painful.

That is a very, very good point that I had stupidly not considered. Even without the eviliness, both parental Malfoys are very much about standards.

Observe the further changing of my mind concerning Draco.

Merci!

altricial @ April 19 2003, 11:24:27 UTC Re: poor Harry, poor Ron

I think all of them have a lot of childhood issues that are finally clashing together. Even though Ron has a loving family, he has a lot of sidekicker complex and being just another Weasley. Plus he came to Hogwarts feeling the stress of family expectations since his older brothers are all so cool and ends up being friends with The Boy Who Lived. And then there's the Weasleys vs Malfoy issue. The only thing Ron really had to lord over Draco is that Harry chose him as a friend over Draco and now he lost that as well.

As for his reaction to Lupin, I think what some of us already mentioned about implicit trust and blind faith pretty much sums it up. Lupin will never be something dangerous to Ron, even though he saw that it was painful, he trusts that Lupin knows how to take care of himself. I think living in a small house with 9 family members forces you to take things as they are.

Harry, on the other hand, had a lot of time in his cupboard to dwell on horrible things that can go back, so he is definitely more in tune with sufferings and pain and having to live with a fate you didn't ask for, so it is totally understandable that he'd be disgusted with Ron's casual attitude towards Lupin.

karabou @ April 19 2003, 12:26:59 UTC Re: poor Harry, poor Ron

As for his reaction to Lupin, I think what some of us already mentioned about implicit trust and blind faith pretty much sums it up. Lupin will never be something dangerous to Ron, even though he saw that it was painful, he trusts that Lupin knows how to take care of himself. I think living in a small house with 9 family members forces you to take things as they are.

Thank you.. I hadn't thought of it in that way, and that really makes sense. :)

altricial @ April 19 2003, 12:28:22 UTC Re: poor Harry, poor Ron

:D :D :D :D :D

Anonymous @ April 19 2003, 11:49:18 UTC

oh my god! harry has replied.......ouch. and ron is *still* oblivious - he really isn't getting it....