akutenshi2007 @ August 20 2003, 21:32:47 UTC

...I can only hope she'll come to her senses and realise she's done something wrong.
and he thinks that Narcissa is at fault. hn.

dragynville @ August 20 2003, 21:49:58 UTC

I always get the feeling that he doesn't really believe his mother's always at fault and his father's always right. He goes on so about his father being such a paragon, so perfect, so wonderful that it has a somewhat desperate air to it. Especially for a boy of 17. It makes me think he's unsure of his father's love and is clinging to the illusion of a relationship, where little to none exists. He can blame and confront and ignore Narcissa because he is more certain of her love for him.

akutenshi2007 @ August 20 2003, 22:13:44 UTC

yes, i can understand where you're coming from, his entire last paragraph goes on and on about how Lucius is great at this and a role-model and such, but it irks me that he doesn't have the sense to even realize what Lucius goes around doing... and posting in the open-to-the-public-live-journals!

the only thing that i can even imagine that's going through his head is that, "We are the Malfoys. Such as that does not happen in a wizarding family as old and prestigious as ours." or something to that extent, apathy.

dragynville @ August 20 2003, 21:41:19 UTC

she tried to convince me that he'd done something to me

Ok, that has me severely curious. 0.0

nightflight @ August 20 2003, 21:43:54 UTC

....XD ::glomps:: ::points below::

dragynville @ August 20 2003, 21:51:43 UTC

GMTA!! <3 <3 <3 :D

nightflight @ August 20 2003, 21:42:48 UTC

I didn't even know Father had left until she told me and she tried to convince me that he'd done something to me.

This intruges me. Does she just mean the way Lucius treats his family in general or..?

babytyggeryss @ August 20 2003, 21:52:27 UTC

Maybe Narcissa doesn't approve of Lucius's extra-curricular activities and hopes that Draco will not follow in his father's foot-steps.

dragynville @ August 20 2003, 21:54:57 UTC

Yes, that is exactly what I want to know. *nod nod* It's probably that Narcissa views whatever Lucius has done as being an attack on the family unit. But what a way to word it! 0.0

tabiji @ August 20 2003, 21:56:42 UTC

Some sort of brainwashing? I'm wondering if this is linked to the portraits' peculiar behavior? Maybe the portraits in Lucius' office were communicating with those at Malfoy Manor, and the portraits' kidnapping Draco was an attempt at a warning.

anjenue @ August 20 2003, 22:27:38 UTC

I'm still holding on to the possibility that it might have had something to do with Lucius disapproving of H/D.

Although I'm starting to think it was just Lucius/Sirius anyhow. *bares teeth at both of them*

STUPID STUPID STUPID!

Anonymous @ August 21 2003, 00:23:31 UTC

Who knows? Oblivated? Brainwashed?
His wording makes it sound like he has *no clue* what's been happening in the last few weeks, he keeps saying that his *mother* must have done something, etc. as though he doesn't really know what that something is.
In his previous post he made it clear that he knew *exactly* what was going on (See paragraph immediately following "If only people who weren't me had heard of discretion.")
Sooooo... what's really gong on? Is it abject denial over the situation or something more sinister?
BTW anyone besides me wondering if Harry mightn't have gone to Lavendar Brown's? She did say her parents were going to be away for the week and issue open-invitations. Lav's annoying, but she's a housemate and it's as good a place as any to hide out.

black_dog @ August 21 2003, 03:07:26 UTC

she tried to convince me that he'd done something to me.

I'm totally disturbed by this. What kind of thing could Lucius "do to" Draco that would cause Narcissa, given all she's put up with, to end the marriage on the spot? And cause Lucius, who has the brazenness to face down anything, to flee the Villa and only summon Draco later?

I'm very troubled by any un-PC equation of homosexuality and pedophilia/incest, but we know Lucius goes for anything, of any gender and age, and has some severe, severe boundary issues.

How would he get away with it? Well, there's been a lot of discussion of Memory Charms lately -- in Pisa, and with Neville. Neville's experience also raises the issue of traumatic experiences sort of "poking through" the memory charms, causing general personality disturbance -- which makes me think of Draco's sexual issues. We also learned from Neville that these problems can be especially severe when people are disinhibited by alcohol or drugs ( = Draco's fear/revulsion at being drunk?)

Obviously, it's a very big accusation to make. But I think the text is very striking and is clearly open to the possibility.

sistermagpie @ August 21 2003, 07:43:20 UTC

It is open to it, definitely--to anything! I do feel like there should be some explanation for ps' revulsion, even if Lucius isn't personally the cause of it. He just shows way to many signs of...things. Not that I think his player created him by looking at a list of psychological symptoms or anything, but he does hold together pretty well on that score, at least from his journal.

I'm trying to figure out Draco's thoughts here. Is he angry at his mother for trying to make him see his father for who he really is when Draco's not ready for it? Or was Narcissa more vague about exactly what was going on? Remember, for instance, when she left Lucius the first time over "the way he treated Draco" and Draco was simply confused and felt used and irritated. As far as Draco could see Lucius hadn't done anything to him but punish him. His attitude here seems very similar: he'll not be used as a weapon. (Unfortunately he's really become a weapon for Lucius against his mother in reaction.) Then, too, Narcissa seemed to expect Draco to see what she was doing as being "all for him" when he didn't see it that way, and really it wasn't.

From Draco's pov Narcissa probably has just been trying to go into a storm about something every few weeks. Does it truly have to do with Draco in a way he can understand? I mean, if Lucius had sex with Sirius, would that constitute "doing something to Draco?" Did she tell him what Lucius did or did she just tell him to trust her and hate Lucius? Because that's not going to work for obvious reasons. Lucius, whatever his faults, does seem to know what makes Draco tick more than Narcissa does. After all, he probably trained him.

If Narcissa had discovered that Lucius had done something literally heinous to Draco, wouldn't she be taking more steps to keep him away from him, rather than just waiting for Draco to come to her? I'm not sure. Narcissa's post doesn't sound too worried about Draco to me, just hurt by his staying at the Manor and choosing Lucius.

Draco's paragraph about his father being a good role model could be a direct reply to Narcissa's reasons for leaving. Like, he's telling her that Father is a GREAT role-model and he's planning to learn from him right away in response to her saying or implying that she had to get him away from Lucius' bad influence. Draco may be reacting to Narcissa the same way Harry seems to have reacted to Lupin, even though Remus was the one who was "wronged." Lupin left DW and Narcissa left the Manor.

Draco says he has no idea what Narcissa's on about so it's possible he just got summoned to her chambers and found her in a state where she explained she'd thrown Lucius out, that he wouldn't be able to hurt Draco anymore, that they could be free of him. It seems like he's been alone for much of the holiday, and then this happened after they'd finally had a nice day together.

But then there's that line about her trying to convince him Lucius had done something to him. She could be referring to his cheating on her as if this hurts him as well. She could also mean something much more sinister, though remember with S/R it *seemed* to really be more of the same.

Still, it's pretty fascinating, isn't it, that he says Narcissa must have done something wrong, that he has to go that far in the other direction to deal with this. That's kind of an interesting insight, that even though he knows Narcissa is the one refusing to return to the Manor, that she must have done something wrong to make Lucius leave. This could be like the rock that ps is based on here. Something far too difficult for him to deal with rationally. He's got much more bound up in Lucius' being a great man than Narcissa does.

black_dog @ August 21 2003, 12:59:41 UTC

If Narcissa had discovered that Lucius had done something literally heinous to Draco, wouldn't she be taking more steps to keep him away from him, rather than just waiting for Draco to come to her? I'm not sure. Narcissa's post doesn't sound too worried about Draco to me, just hurt by his staying at the Manor and choosing Lucius.

This is probably the strongest argument against the idea that some sort of sexual abuse is going on, but I'm trying to think about whether it's insuperable. I guess the practial question is, who would back Narcissa up if she made a public accusation? Draco would literally not know anything had happened -- memory charms in that sense are a powerful tool for an abuser. Narcissa is no fool, and she could easily be painted as a spouse using trumped up charges of abuse in a difficult divorce. (And could you imagine the cross-examination, on the subject of the baby pictures?) There is also the question of Lucius' personal power and his alliance with Voldemort -- she may be afraid to make an overt, public accusation until she has some allies lined up. In that case, it may ironically be Draco who, by repeating in public her private accusation, does the most to tip people off that something is going on.

I don't think that Lucius' "cheating" would count as something that "hurts" Draco. L and N have had far too open a marriage on this question, for far too long. Narcissa, whose interests include "co-ed naked quidditch," is no sexual prude, I think, and I suspect they are both rather fond of Gunther. L and N's recent differences seem to have been about Voldemort -- although I'm fascinated by your point about Narcissa leaving Lucius the first time over "the way he treated Draco" -- maybe abuse has been subtext for a while now?

You're right that the key question is -- what's going on in Draco's head? If his mother confronted him with an accusation he couldn't believe, he'd be in a tough position. He'd obviously have to make a choice on the spot, and given his mother's history of flakiness, he might find it impossible to stay with her and implicitly endorse her accusation, even if he had been gradually growing more comfortable with her during the stay in Italy. And as you point out, he still has way too much invested in his father to accept, let alone act on, an accusation like Narcissa seems to have made.

And yet, if something about the accusation weren't sticking, I don't think PS would sound as disturbed as he does in his post. His praise for Lucius seems to be a reversion to his childish, over-the-top style of a year ago -- as you say, it's sort of reaching out for his earlier image of his father as a rock. More recently, his praise for Lucius has been briefer and sometimes even a bit ironic. His repetition about visiting Diagon Alley sounds like the babbling of someone who's very upset. His criticism of his mother, his assumption that she's done something wrong in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, sounds like an irrational, almost infantile attempt to make sense of the situation in a way that answers to his own anxieties rather than to the facts.

He may have chosen Lucius for the moment, but he seems to be in turmoil about it.

moojja @ August 21 2003, 17:15:44 UTC

I don't understand why you think lucius might have abused Draco. Narcissa isn't the most loving or selfless mother. She could have use that line to try to get Draco onto her side. During the true serum party, lucius did admit caring about Draco. I don't think he is gulity of anything other than emotional abouse. Something Narcissa is also gulity of.

black_dog @ August 21 2003, 18:00:47 UTC

It's been a long-term speculation among a couple of us that Draco's attitude toward sex shows symptoms typical of someone who's been sexually abused. I'm quicker to point the finger at Lucius than others are, I admit, and I may be terribly wrong. But I was struck by this very old exchange between Ron and Draco. My consistent take on Ron is that he tends to nose out the truth of things in spite of himself. And I find Narcissa's accusation, as characterized by Draco in last night's post, very significant and disturbing. Finally, I wouldn't put it past Lucius. He has absolutely no sexual self control, and he seems to have a boundless sense of power and entitlement.

sistermagpie @ August 22 2003, 13:13:12 UTC

As black_dog said, it's more something a couple of us have kicked around because of Draco's personality and sexual issues more than anything he's parents have done or said. Personally, I started thinking of it during the outing thread, which made ps' sexual anxiety cease to be funny for me and it just sort of hangs out as a possibility in my mind because of his whole personality rather than any clues about any actual incident. Once I had it in my head I kept reading things that reinforced the possibility, though I don't usually think of Lucius as being involved. Narcissa's entry, to me, doesn't seem to point to her making that kind of accusation, but that's me.:-)

sistermagpie @ August 22 2003, 11:16:38 UTC

I guess the big unknown factor is exactly what Narcissa meant when she "tried to convince" Draco his father had done something to him and tried to "turn him against" Lucius. Did he apparate before she could be specific? Was it really about Draco or was she just trying to get him to see Lucius as she did? If we are just talking about a fight over Lucius as a husband than ps would be absolutely right to refuse to be used as a pawn (though not to allow himself to be used against Narcissa by Lucius). It's a real contrast between how Remus and Sirius at least try to keep Harry out of it while Narcissa immediately makes Draco the public battleground. Narcissa's leaving because of how Lucius treats Draco could be a hint at something sinister about Lucius or just an insight into how Narcissa fights or sees her family situatuion. The last time it seemed about Lucius cutting him off and not letting her contact him either, though we don't know specifically and personally why this upset her enough to leave.

ps sounds like he can't block out her words no matter how much he tries, though. They sent him straight back to Lucius for reassurance. His final solution that Narcissa's done something wrong opens up some really sad possibilities. When Lucius doesn't order Narcissa back to the Manor he assumes she's in trouble. With Draco negative attention is better than nothing. (When Draco himself was in disgrace Lucius ignored him. Draco also said in the Q&A that Dementors made him hear silence, though presumably his hole and the theater are quiet...? Fascinated by that answer.) Draco did manage to please Lucius by applying for MoM.

There is something very childlike about Draco's stubborn confidence that the solution to all things Lucius is to figure out what YOU did wrong and be grateful for forgiveness. Childlike and unhealthy. Narcissa may not realize how dammaged Draco is on this front. It kind of opens up a world of possible self-hatred in him.

On the possible abuse front, if he was afraid of Lucius he'd know better than to publically choose Narcissa, especially since I doubt he trusts her to not lose interest in him once he's with her, plus he'd have a bond with him he might identify as love. (Also, he's very sensitive about publically airing their dirty laundry.) I, personally, have always thought if anything happened it was done by someone else and that would fit as well. Lucius may make him feel safe and justly punished while Narcissa is a little too soft and unreliable. It's like Mooja said below--with Lucius he knows the rules. Also, if anything bad happened he may blame Narcissa for it for any number of reasons.

In general, though, I tend to think if any kind of abuse occurred Narcissa wouldn't consciously know about it. She might have seen something that she chose to not think about too deeply. Lucius might not know at all, depending. If Narcissa was truly making an accusation like that guilt-tripping Draco about choosing Lucius would be pretty cruel. I think she'd be more incredulous then self-pitying. Her post seems more about setting up D&L vs. herself then getting support for Draco's sake.

Whatever Lucius provides for Draco, he seems to really need it right now! God, I love the NA Malfoys. All the players are so damned good!

black_dog @ August 22 2003, 13:58:05 UTC

Aack, I know I'm completely out on a limb on my interpretation, and haven't been able to convince. Yet there are three or four pieces of evidence that I just can't get over.

There is, first, the phrasing of Narcissa's accusation as reported by Draco: "she tried to convince me he'd done something to me," and Draco's immediate, derisive dismissal: "I'd rather think I'd know if he had." I twist and turn and am just unable to read this as an abstraction, as emotional abuse or a metaphor for the way Lucius is damaging the family. It sounds inescapably like an overt act committed by Lucius upon Draco. And Narcissa's reaction is shock and revulsion. I can dismiss her being "distraught" -- she's often distraught about something. But the icy insult to Lucius and the abrupt and decisive separation are unique for Narcissa, different from the earlier, "regretful" separation this spring. She's obviously been deeply affected.

I'm trying to think of alternative explanations for these hard facts -- perhaps Narcissa, inspired by Hera, suddenly drew a conclusion somewhat like our own about past abuse, and decided to confront Draco and see if he would confirm her hunch. Perhaps, as some people have suggested, PS' allusion to his "spacious quarters" was an oblique announcement that Harry had been visiting him -- and Narcissa discovered them, confronted Draco about his sexuality, and decided to "blame" Lucius. But in either case, I still can't see that a mere suspicion, or a secondary confrontation over Draco's sex life, would lead Narcissa to abruptly dismiss Lucius.

I don't completely agree that she is using Draco as a pawn or the object of a public battle -- although naturally he accuses her of doing just that. As I read this, one of the most poignant things about Narcissa's reaction is that, perhaps understanding the weakness of her position, she restrains herself from overplaying her hand or forcing PS to choose. "If he should like to spend time with his father rather than me, I shall not deny him of that right to do so. I shall not."

Sure, it might be a passive-aggressive tactic, like the way she maneuvered a few days ago over whether Draco would accompany Lucius to London in the first place. But the repetition of "I shall not" sounds sincere to me, sounds like she is steeling herself to do something very difficult. She recognizes, bitterly, that right now she only has the power to make things worse if she acts too precipitately.

One consolation for her may be that Draco will be back at Hogwarts in another week, and out of Lucius' reach. Draco may be thinking this, too, when he twice mentions going to Diagon Alley. Is he anxious about being with his father, and reminding himself that he soon will be able to escape the Manor? You make a number of good points about why, if PS were afraid of Lucius, he would conduct himself publicly exactly the way he has done.

ps sounds like he can't block out her words no matter how much he tries

One geographic note that I missed on a first reading: Draco mentions a visit by himself to the Doge's palace and the Bridge of Sighs. Those are of course in Venice, while the Villa is in Liguria/Genoa, at the opposite end of Northern Italy. The timing is very vague, but if the confrontation happened the morning after the return from Pisa, the visit to Venice would have been subsequent to that -- PS apparated off, far away from either of them, to think things out. I think it's interesting that PS' ultimate decision to dismiss Narcissa's accusation and join Lucius may not have been purely instantaneous or automatic.

There is something very childlike about Draco's stubborn confidence that the solution to all things Lucius is to figure out what YOU did wrong and be grateful for forgiveness.

Exactly. Though I would go further and call it infantile and deeply neurotic. He seems to have been faced with a possibility he cannot bear to confront, and is not reacting rationally.

Well, we may read the backstory differently, but as the saying goes, that's what makes horse races. This has certainly been brilliantly played, and I'm looking forward to whatever additional crumbs of information we are treated to!

Anonymous @ August 22 2003, 16:25:37 UTC

ACK. ACK. Okay, I know both you and SM prefer not to be told one way or another, but this being such a huge thing I want to step in here (so I apologise). No, Draco has never been sexually abused--we would never, ever put that in NA. The way that was phrased in Draco's LJ was simply bad phrasing on my part; Narcissa really did mean what he'd done to the family, which (as I saw you pointed out) was the same as before when she was saying Lucius was treating Draco badly. But there was no physical abuse whatsoever.

Again, I apologise for stepping in, but it's something I'd really like to make sure there is no confusion about.

-Draco's player.

black_dog @ August 22 2003, 16:54:36 UTC

A voice from the heavens decides the question! You know what they did to Rabbi Eleazar, don't you?

Thank you for the clarification, though -- it is probably the only way to know about ground rules to the game that govern the interpretation of an otherwise ambiguous text (and I really do think the text, intentionally or not, made the reading a plausible one without a knowledge of the boundary lines).

I saw a player intervene, as well, when people were speculating recently on Remus/Harry abuse, and I confess my hairsplitting nature noticed that the announced rule was "no teacher/student sex in NA" as opposed to "no intergenerational sex." Bad dog.

Now that this reading is out of the way, I hope you don't think it stems from perverseness or gruesomeness for its own sake, but from a genuine fascination with PS' character. Certainly one of the great puzzles of PS is his unusual sexual and emotional life and how it reflects on his potential for happiness. So the analysis was done in love for the character, and this reader at least will continue to hope for his flourishing.

Anyway I find myself idiotically happy to know that it wasn't something so awful, after all, which is a tribute to what a compelling creation PS is. Thanks again for making this whole mad festival possible!

sistermagpie @ August 22 2003, 17:24:55 UTC

Actually, I think you phrased it really well in the post--Draco probably would see it as, "Father hasn't done anything to me," no matter how Narcissa put it. I know NA deals with plenty of serious things (like Lavender's anorexia) and certainly wouldn't bring this up something like sexual abuse for shock value--as black_dog said it's really more just about figuring out where ps is coming from on the sexual front.

Anyway, thanks for the clatification. Loved his last post and keep up the good work! (Everybody, that is.):-)

sistermagpie @ August 22 2003, 18:06:01 UTC

Thinking about the kind of things Hera seems to teach, Narcissa's throwing Lucius out could just be about taking charge, not letting him manipulate her again etc.

I do see Narcissa's post as less defeated than you do, I think. It sounds to me like all the Malfoys are in stubborn mode. Narcissa: "If Draco doesn't want to be with me that's fine." Lucius: "If Narcissa doesn't want to be with me that's fine." Draco: "If Mother doesn't want to be with us that's fine." Had Draco gone to Narcissa Lucius would probably be more icy in his cutting Draco off than Narcissa--and it would be much harder to get back into Lucius' good graces later, imo. Draco's always a little afraid of Lucius, I think, but that's mixed up with loving him. It's not like there was ever any doubt which parent he'd choose if he had to; he's already got a bad relationship with Narcissa, one which has been subtly encouraged by Lucius, who's always taken the active role. Remember how coldly ps cut Narcissa off when he thought she was adopted? I don't know if he'd have done the same with Lucius. Narcissa rarely fails to point out every time she makes an overture and ps ignores it. This seemed like part of the pattern to me.

I think ps' Diagon Alley stuff probably serves a lot of purposes. First, it's a fantasy of he and Dad loving to spend time together. Maybe they'll go to DA together next week--like they're two friends who like to hang out together. Also it shows Narcissa how much more fun it is at home, and that they are very very happy without her (see stubborn mode above). Just the men in the house and all that, without those emotional women-folk. There's also some defense of Lucius; he may be smarting over hearing his mother badmouthing Lucius. He may also be doing that for the public--whatever his mother might say, his father is actually very clever and good. Dammage control.

I can't imagine him having any other reaction to Narcissa's actions, myself. Even if we weren't talking about problematic ps, I imagine few teenagers are enthusiastic about a parent having a mid-life crisis that involves fulfilling their personal needs and leaving home. From ps' pov the only thing that's changed in the family is Narcissa, I think, and Lucius is just patiently waiting it out.

I was struck by Draco's private visit to the Doge. There was something really nice, if a little sad given how the vacation was going, about him doing some sightseeing on his own. Perhaps he just genuinely wanted to see it. Does anyone else in his family appreciate Italian Gothic (too bad Seamus couldn't come). Plus I loved his comment about the Bridge of Sighs (too bad M.B. couldn't come). And about making a good Doge (too bad Harry couldn't come). If ps has no idea what went on while he was gone I can easily see why he'd dismiss Narcissa's announcement as more dramatics, followed by what he felt was a ridiculous suggestion that he not apparate wherever Father had gone to get the "sensible" story.

black_dog @ August 22 2003, 20:03:04 UTC

Couple of organizing questions as I try to rethink my way through all this:

1. To what extent is the tension between Lucius and Narcissa purely personal, and to what extent is it a function of Voldemort's return to a more active agency, with presumably more significant demands on Lucius' (and indirectly on Narcissa's) loyalties?

2. Since Lucius returned from his first trip to London explicitly to reconcile with Narcissa, and she in turn seemed open to a frank conversation, what actually happened to provoke the breakup? Did it involve Sirius (since he seems to have been away from Dogear and to have known instantly that something was up) or did the conversation just go sour? Or were the two things related -- Did Lucius refuse to break off with Sirius, just as Sirius refused Remus' request to break off with Lucius?

3. The accusation Narcissa made against Lucius to Draco seems to involve asking Draco to take his father's actions personally, as behavior that compromises or injures Draco. What, specifically, was she alluding to? The ongoing flirtation with Sirius? His involvement with the DEs? How do these things harm Draco? Is there any validity to her viewpoint?

4. Beneath his surface show of loyalty, how conflicted is Draco about what his father stands for? I think we both agreed, after batting it around on an earlier thread, that Draco is slowly growing out of idolizing his father but is also terrified by the loss of that "rock," so he sometimes regresses. And Narcissa, rather than being a source of strength as Draco finds his own feet, terrifies him by her unreliability and drives him back, deeper into his father's influence. So, in light of the breakup, that notion begs two additional questions:

a. Is Narcissa playing a strong hand badly, without enough attention to what Draco is really going through? Or is she really too flaky and deluded to be in control of what she's doing at all?

b. Is Draco dissembling his feelings about his father, making the best of a bad situation and maintaining appearances, or is he genuinely becoming more emotionally dependent on Lucius?

5. The parallels with Harry's family are pretty uncanny, with Remus = Narcissa, perhaps appearing too needy in his competition for Harry and unable to crack Harry's potentially unhealthy loyalty to Sirius = Lucius. But breaking the parallel, Harry seems to have opted decisively for a kind of self-reliance that PS is unable to match. I wonder if that is something Harry will be able to help PS with when they return to Hogwarts.

Hmmm. I meant these questions to be a sort of preface to responding to your post, sort of organizing a reply around attempting to answer them. But I'm too sleepy to pull that off right now. So I'll just toss the questions at you, and will try to pick up the thread tomorrow!

sistermagpie @ August 22 2003, 21:45:38 UTC

Ooh, can't go to bed without thinking about these.

1. This is a big question it's hard to know the answer to! Both of them have brought up DE involvement in their fights but they could just be using that as a weapon in a personal fight.

2. If something happened with Sirius Narcissa could be angry on Remus' behalf. From what the Malfoys alone are saying it *could* be a bad conversation, but Narcissa's comment about him walking with lies makes it seem like the conversation went well, then he did something that showed it was all a lie. Remus refers to Sirius having done something, Narcissa says Lucius has done something. Narcissa posts her request for Draco, Lupin asks what's wrong, then replies to Sirius obviously knowing what's wrong with him. Seems related, but could be an illusion...

3. She seems to be saying he's doing something to the family unit. In the past affairs don't seem to have threatened that. But maybe she's thinking like Remus here--it's fine if Lucius has affairs but if Narcissa asks him to specifically not have *this* affair he should do it. Remus dislikes Lucius because of his DE ties so this could be at the heart of it too. Her viewpoint is valid, imo, because what Lucius does affect the family and so Draco, imo. Even if he was just having an affair I think she would be right to object on Draco's sake as well as her own, whether or not Draco sees it that way. We just don't know what's different about this time. Is Narcissa objecting to something new or something he's always done she's now viewing differently?

4.a. I think she's in control of what she's doing but lacks certain insight and information. She's not a master manipulator but she's not inept either. I think she's acting out of the way she sees things. When she feels hurt by something she acts out of that even if it's going to hurt her case, imo. At least that's what it seems like to me. Runs in the family!

4.b. I wonder. To me Draco's seemed more independent this summer with casual references to going places by himself (eating in DA, visiting the Doge). His post about Lucius to me sounded more about presenting an image and getting back at Narcissa than an actual emotional dependence on Lucius. He could feel he's taking control of the situation here. But definitely Lucius knew just what to do to cement his loyalty--took him right out to dinner.

5. I don't know if I'd say Harry's actions show just self-reliance. He may be regressing a bit too (how many "Where's Harry?" threads have Sirius and Remus been in after all). By not leaving a note Harry is creating a drama and letting his godfathers know he feels they don't want him. He's definitely making a statement with this that could be just as instinctive as ps.' Harry's disappearance speaks louder than ps' loud proclamations about his own life. Really Harry's done just what Draco did after the outing, only his parents noticed he was gone. I think M.B. might see it that way ("Tell me again how hard your life is...")

black_dog @ August 23 2003, 02:53:26 UTC

Yay! Your answers make me feel like my questions almost make sense! So, here's another round of reaction to them:

1. Just thinking my way into their heads, I can't help feeling that the Voldemort thing has to be a huge issue, even if it's not getting a lot of attention in the text. (And can't get that attention, for reasons of self-preservation.) I have to keep reminding myself how relatively new a force Voldemort is in their lives -- in canon, it's not clear how explicitly he's behind the notebook incident in CoS, but it's hard to imagine any direct connection given his weakened state that year. Really, he's only been back in Lucius' life for two years, since the end of GoF, and he's spent that time (if OOTP is not part of NA!canon) gathering his forces rather than doing anything overt.

So the start of an actual campaign of attacks has to be creating huge stresses for Lucius, even if he's all for them in principle -- the times are becoming very dangerous for him. And for Narcissa, it has to be an extremely unwelcome blast from the past given her network of adult loyalties, which now include Remus and Harry and a social status not limited to DE circles.

I guess I'm thinking, too, of the timing of their marital problems -- is there any sign that these problems are long term, as opposed to going back only a few months? Lucius and Draco both seem bewildered by Narcissa's increasing dissatisfaction; they react to it as something new and strange rather than taking it for granted as a constant in her character.

So what was the trigger for the recent change between them? Mid-life, Draco's growing up, are both possibilities. But it also seems plausible to imagine that the stress of Voldemort's gathering strength is agitating Lucius, perhaps making him more anxious and difficult to deal with, and forcing Narcissa to re-evaluate a lot of things in her life.

As you say, we don't have nearly enough information to measure this question properly. But I harp on the issue because I see it completely disregarded in so much commentary, and I don't think a plausible interpretation of their lives right now can omit what must be a major source of stress. If NA teaches anything, it's that text is not everything, backstory has to be inferred through sympathetic imagination.

2. Although I respect Narcissa's friendship with Remus, I can't imagine, just in ordinary human terms, that this relatively recent friendship would outweigh her loyalty to her husband if the marriage itself weren't rotten. I can't see any concern about Remus driving her away from Lucius -- it's much more likely that if the marriage were salvageable, Remus would simply be sacrificed in the interest of salvaging it. I think married couples make that kind of pragmatic social calculation every day.

Thinking about what may have tipped the balance in the marriage, I guess I'm leaning now toward Narcissa's outrage over the scandal of Lucius' behavior. Narcissa strikes me as the kind of person who would say, "do what you want, but don't get into the gossip columns." And that raises the question of Lucius' self-control. I've been assuming for a while that Lucius is deliberately playing on Sirius' weakness, but I may be missing how much of a weakness Lucius has for Sirius. He made a fool of himself at the wedding and at several subsequent parties -- that doesn't suggest a lot of self-possession or calculation.

So Narcissa may be disturbed by signs of weakness and loss-of-control in Lucius, as well as being furious that this particular obsession has become a matter of repeated public scandal. He's showing public contempt for her, which he may not have done before. And he's showing atrocious judgment for someone who should be a key DE lieutenant -- which we've also seen examples of in the matter of his public threats against Harry -- something Draco, of all people, called him on after Veritaserum night. Lucius' ostracism of Draco this spring over the matter of the duel -- which provoked L and N's first separation -- may have struck Narcissa as irrational and eccentric, as evidence that he was flaking a bit under stress.

black_dog @ August 23 2003, 02:54:21 UTC

[. . . continued]

So hey, here's a really sinister interpretaion of Narcissa -- maybe she's worried that Lucius is becoming a weak link in the DE chain, and is deciding he's expendable! Realistically, though, I think she just may be losing respect for him and finding her public position increasingly intolerable.

3. I wonder if we can find some evidence of what Narcissa said to Draco in the things that Draco chooses to emphasize in his reply. When Draco talks about his father as an example it seems to be a very specific reply to something that's not obvious elsewhere in his post. It's odd that he would stress the traits of being "clever" and "valiant" as well -- what do they have to do with anything that's been previously said about Lucius?

These points may be Draco's answer to some really specific attacks by Narcissa. She may have pointed to the scandal of Lucius' behavior with Sirius, and emphasized what a poor example it sets, how it makes Draco a laughingstock by association. She may have even drawn some ugly parallels about Draco's own reputation for having a relationship with Harry. "Clever" implies that Narcissa called Lucius a fool -- and I find that totally probable, because I've made the argument elsewhere in the past that Lucius' judgment is often surprisingly careless and sloppy. "Valiant" implies a charge of cowardice. I'm hard pressed to find an instance to support this charge, unless she was alluding to the kind of flakiness under pressure I talked about above.

Do you find this interpretation of Draco's post plausible? If it holds together, it offers a startling glimpse of what Narcissa may actually be thinking about Lucius right now.

#4 we've beaten to death, and #5 is mostly about Draco and Harry, so I'll come back to that in another post another time. It's been interesting to think through this, it feels like turning up a whole new set of possibilities. But as usual, I hand it back to you now for a reality check!

sistermagpie @ August 23 2003, 22:28:59 UTC

Well, Draco's latest chilled me to the bone, pretty much. Looks like you were right about the DEs coming into it!! ::shudders and resists urge to bundle PS back to school NOW NOW NOW!!::

So Lucius has now decided it's time to bring Draco to lunch with his business associates. Since this is the first time this probably isn't specifically what Narcissa was referring to when she said Lucius had done something to him, though she may have known Lucius was moving to bring him into the fold. Would Narcissa consider Lucius at fault for bringing the family into the DE circle?

I do think it's very possible that Draco's praise of Lucius is directly contradicting what Narcissa said. Things like "foolish" and "cowardly" could easily be a description to Lucius as a DE, or of Lucius business in general, though it seems a little too much for Narcissa to take an open stand against Voldemort.

Of course this doesn't mean their fight was about this. Lucius might be drawing Draco in in response to Narcissa's throwing him out for other reasons. Also, Draco's post took place after dinner with Lucius so he could be parroting the version of himself that Lucius painted.

Re: marital problems being longterm, I think Narcissa's way of handling her grievances are new. I can understand why Lucius and Draco would be confused. I'm not completely sure exactly where Narcissa's at so they might not be either. She usually has the ability to pretend things she doesn't like aren't there, after all, and she may not be good at communicating what's changed.

I am really interested to know exactly what made her leave the Manor that first time. Lucius' punishment to Draco didn't seem too over the top to Draco. What was it about that incident that made Narcissa decide to leave Lucius over it? She'd probably gone without contact with Draco for that long before, but did being forbidden to do so make the whole thing more dramatic for her? Because Lucius' actions after the duel really weren't that odd or eccentric. He laid out a punishment, gave the reasons for it (and they were right in line with his usual rules) and did it.

I definitely don't think Narcissa would leave Lucius over Remus. I just thought that she might have chosen this as a symbol of something because of that relationship. Her real problem is how Lucius treats her, and his refusal to drop Remus could stand for that as much as anything.

If Voldemort is at the center of this, I expect some fallout from Draco's post. I can't believe anyone on the right side could take that post lightly. Draco's posting about it either to continue his "having a lovely time and glad you're not here" thing to Narcissa but it's also a detailed announcement of who he just had lunch with. He seems to really want to talk to his friends--he's 17 now and apparently being pressed to make some choices. And as I mentioned elsewhere, I wonder if Nott's owl was related.

Year 7: The Battle for PS!!

luna_lg @ August 24 2003, 15:25:50 UTC

...why do I get the feeling that this is the year where either Draco finally shows his true colors, or remains a cold, shallow bastard for the rest of his lonely life?

Seriously, though, I honestly agree that Draco is being pushed into making choices. He's trying to hide it, but I honestly feel that, deep down, he's starting to crack just a little. What he really needs is a true-blue friend, one who he can tell his most private feelings to and NOT have him/her tell anyone else about it. I don't think he could do that with Crabbe, Goyle, or even with Pansy and Bulstrode.

And yes, Harry is a very possible candidate for that role.

black_dog @ August 24 2003, 19:57:05 UTC

Ha! You don't buy my weak!Lucius theory, do you? But I still think Lucius was nuts to get worked up over the duel. I went and reviewed the backstory, just because I hadn't remembered anything about it except that it was good. Forgive me for summarizing it without links; it's all around the second week of April on the community journal, and a bit of Boot, PS, Lucius, and Naricssa's journals.

The background is that PS has been going through his frantic dating period to reaffirm his masculinity in the wake of what we subsequently learn is Harry's attempt to kiss him. A few days before the duel, PS gets out of his depth with M.M and Sally Anne Perks, is kidnapped by them and/or runs away, and has to be rescued by MB and Pansy, who tie him to their bed. As payoff, MB demands dinner. Because of the dinner, Terry Boot is furious about PS' apparent designs on his Millie, and challenges him to a duel. PS accepts, speaks of "scurvy curs" and names a painting of Sir Cadogan as his second.

Lucius and Narcissa appear to take this all at face value, as though PS were seriously interested in MB as a girlfriend and intended to defend her honor, or took Boot the least bit seriously. We hear much from Lucius about Draco "becoming a man" as well as "a Malfoy." Lucius is obviously humiliated when the duel turns out to be a joke neither PS nor Boot care enough to follow through with. There are conversations between L and N at this time that suggest there is some resonsance here between Lucius' interest in the duel and his determination, recently disappointed, to have Draco lose his viriginity before his 17th birthday.

Personally, I think Lucius is nuts to take any of this seriously or get involved with it. Narcissa for her part seems agitated because of some previously established concerns about Lucius' parenting style -- she criticizes him at one point for not showing Draco enough attention, for ignoring his letters; she suggests Draco would be doing better if Lucius spent more time with him. So the subtext may be that Lucius' is an inattentive father and this lack of a present example may be compromising PS "masculinity." Lucius for his part seems to think think that Narcissa's coddling is responsible for PS being a wuss. So they are blaming each other for their disappointment with Draco. And Narcissa seems to think that Lucius' punishment is 1. idiotic and 2. likely to only compound Draco's insecurities.

Ok, what's a revelation here to me is that a sense of disappointment in Draco may be at the root of Narcissa's questioning herself and Lucius, back last spring. But I still think she looks at the way Lucius is making a fuss over the duel, and must think it is stupid and self-regarding as well as misguided. I think she's coming to doubt Lucius and has more and more confidence in that judgment as she begins to see how messed up Draco has turned out under his father's influence. So this, perhaps, is the beginning of her own halting attempt to assert herself as an independent influence in Draco's life.

What becomes of my Voldemort theory here? Well, according to shusu's timetable, which it would have been nice for me to link to, all this is happening just a few weeks after Lucius' March trip to Romania on "business." The timing is suggestive -- Voldemort's demands heat up, Lucius begins acting more and more arbitrarily, and at the same time Narcissa is questioning Lucius because of his manifestly damaging influence on Draco. It's perhaps not a neat cause-and-effect, but it's all happening more or less together.

So Narcissa's self assertion comes against a background of doubting the man she has previously relied on, both as a model influence for Draco and as her guide to the rightness of Voldemort's cause. I want to think about this more, but it's consistent with her being thrown back on herself because she's having a crisis of confidence in Lucius.

sistermagpie @ August 24 2003, 20:35:48 UTC

Oh, I could believe Lucius could be weak definitely. Just that that particular punishment, odd as it was, was straightforward and not so strange by Malfoy standards. Also, just to clarify, wasn't it Narcissa who was pressuring Draco to lose his virginity at 16? (LOL--Lucius' anger over the duel seems almost normal in comparison to that demand, huh!) Lucius was on board but I seem to remember Narcissa being the one reminding him of his promise. It was also Narcissa Draco took Pansy out to lunch with to show how together they were.

Narcissa's concern for Draco in the duel punishment is interesting given the way that in the past she was usually more about petting than punishing. That is, she'd talk about how great Draco was and say he was her little angel etc. while Lucius was always the sterner parent. So it didn't seem odd for Narcissa to take the position that Draco shouldn't be treated harshly. But I wonder why Draco's behavior with regards to the duel would make her suddenly see him as screwed up in ways he wasn't before. Like, I could easily have seen her going along with Draco's own claims that he needed the sleep. If that were the case I think I'd expect her to play "good parent" by talking about how much she wanted to see Draco and by buying him presents afterwards rather than moving out. Narcissa's moving out, to me, seemed more about something she felt rather than impressing Draco personally.

That wouldn't contradict your theory, though. If this was primarily about Narcissa questioning her own faith in Lucius and the life she had gotten into her behavior would make sense. I find it harder to believe it's specifically about wanting to have an independent influence on Draco because the effect of her actions on Draco was so often negative. Of course her actions could have just had the opposite effect than she expected, but it seems like she'd have reacted differently to him during that time and gone about things differently. For instance, wasn't there an incident where Draco went home after his punishment and nobody picked him up? If Narcissa was going to make a stand for influence wouldn't it make more sense for her to defy Lucius by picking him up rather than defy him by moving out of the Manor while Draco is at school and moving in with Draco's teachers and the boy Draco hates/is obsessed with? Granted Narcissa's not necessarily the most sensitive person but this seems a convoluted of trying to win Draco over even for her.

Perhaps we'll get a clue about this in Narcissa's reponse or non response to Draco's post. It doesn't sound from ps' posts like Narcissa sat him down and explained to him that Lucius was going to make him a DE. If she had then she could easily react to his post by saying, "Well, he knows I'm here if he's not sure about that. There's nothing I can say. He has to come to me." But if she just vaguely said Lucius was a bad influence and he refused to get it I'd think she'd take a big interest in Draco's public anxiety. If Voldemort is her key concern she'd be more actively trying to influence Draco than ever, I'd think.

black_dog @ August 25 2003, 20:41:52 UTC

I'm not ignoring this, but I realize I have to get a much better grasp of L & N's backstory from 2002 in order to really engage the argument. I've gone back and read L&N's journal posts, though not their community posts.

I'm struck by a number of things, not least that it might be difficult to construct a sustained argument about N's character because of changes in the way she's been played (no idea if it was a different player in Summer 2002, but the tone is very different.)

Some tentative observations: The marriage was rocky even back then; early Narcissa is much tougher, much more contemptuous of Lucius, than even current!Narcissa; she does attribute eccentric behavior on his part to the stress of working with Volemort; she pretends to be in obsessive denial about homosexuality but clearly is calculating whether Draco's lack of interest in girls means she's going to have to get pregnant again -- a thought that she really hates, but that she's holding in reserve as a threat. This seems to be at the root of her interest in Draco's "promise," whereas Lucius is much more pragmatic -- at one point he gives Draco 50 galleons and implicitly tells him to go get a hooker.

So I want to assimilate all this a bit, and read the community posts as well, and come back in a day or so with a more thoughtful response.

la_trix @ August 20 2003, 22:00:31 UTC

My quarters there, by the way, are quite spacious.

I'm curious about this. Why bring it up at all? This may be a completely unfounded speculation, but could this be a hint to Harry that he can stay there if he wants?

dragynville @ August 20 2003, 22:08:45 UTC

Oh, interesting speculation, that does sort of stick out there!

akutenshi2007 @ August 20 2003, 22:21:35 UTC

Perhaps, Harry is already staying there?

that was my first thought when Draco said, "Anyway, Potter, just so you know, people are looking for you."

Maybe, the fact that he notes that his quarters there are large means that he's sharing them with Harry.

Draco seems to be one who wouldn't just rat someone out unless it could do him some good, and by telling Harry's guardians that he's there wouldn't be helping him any so he doesn't just come right out and say it.
it seems a bit left-field, but it could work, couldn't it?

babytyggeryss @ August 20 2003, 22:28:12 UTC

Maybe his wording is an invite to Harry: "They have already verified that you aren't here, so you can come and hide here if you want."

takeonelook @ August 20 2003, 22:34:45 UTC

The only reason it couldn't work is because Draco is no longer at the villa, he's back at the Manor. But I do agree that it could be an invitation for Harry to stay there since it's a place no one would suspect. And if Harry has contacted Draco and has told him that he doesn't want to be found, then I definately think Draco would keep his mouth shut.

la_trix @ August 20 2003, 22:45:15 UTC

Even if Harry hasn't contacted him at all, Draco's loyalty would lie with Harry as opposed to Remus or Sirius. If he figures Harry doesn't want to be found, he'll help him hide.

babytyggeryss @ August 20 2003, 22:53:15 UTC

But who are his loyalties stronger to: His father (who gives him a powerful name, money, and other material things he enjoys) or Harry (who seems to be accepting of his faults and enjoys Draco for Draco [something that maybe new in Draco's life])?

That will be a very demanding question for Draco someday.

la_trix @ August 20 2003, 23:34:36 UTC

Oh, I was just thinking of who Draco would choose, if the choices were Harry on one side, and Remus and Sirius on the other. There's not too much of a question there; he'd pick Harry.

On the other hand, between Harry and Lucius? That's a much stickier issue. I think only time will tell on that one.

babytyggeryss @ August 20 2003, 23:42:10 UTC

I was just expanding on your loyalties idea--just giving the thread something to chew on as people seem to be very quite. ^_^

luna_lg @ August 24 2003, 15:31:24 UTC

The choice between Harry, his top-secret friend (or possible lover?) and Lucius, his cold-hearted, Death Eater of a father...

That IS tough, I will admit...

I honestly think that it could go either way, depending on how deep the TRUE relationship is between Draco and Harry. Are they really rivals, secretly friends, or actually lovers? Because Harry actually admitted earlier that he's found a lover at last, and that he--yes, HE--is not a Gryffindor.

Just some food for thought. ;)

Anonymous @ August 21 2003, 00:09:29 UTC

I think the last place Harry would want to hide is at Malfoy Manor, whatever his relationship with Draco might be!

la_trix @ August 21 2003, 00:22:10 UTC

True, but the villa in Italy is empty. That's where Harry could stay, if he wants.

babytyggeryss @ August 21 2003, 00:24:08 UTC

The Manor is only dangerous with Lucius around (and he is)as his true loyalties have started to shine through the well-placed mask.

Harry might be hiding with Narcissa. They seem to get along rather well and she might be understanding of his feelings. However, she'll want to do the right thing and that might be telling Remus.

Speaking of Narcissa, where is she? I expected her to pop up and say something long before this.

babytyggeryss @ August 21 2003, 00:25:08 UTC

Or is Narcissa also back at the Manor?

kaeda @ August 21 2003, 07:20:01 UTC

it appears that she's going to Cannes for a few days...

redbowties @ August 21 2003, 12:17:25 UTC

Speaking of which: Look at what she says at the bottom

"I have important things to discuss with you."

hmm...maybe we are onto something, hm?

Anonymous @ August 21 2003, 07:40:06 UTC

Like someone else said, couldn't Harry be staying there already? I took PS's abrupt, irrelevant "spacious" remark as his get-out clause - so later he can claim his quarters were so big he couldn't have known Harry was there. And his "Potter, just so you know, people are looking for you" also seems like a way of distancing himself from Harry's actions, and dodging any future accusations that he helped him. I'm also suspicious about this visit to Venice. Could Harry have owled or emailed PS, and this was their rendez-vous point?

But if Harry isn't in Italy, I think he's at the Dursleys. It would be the biggest "fuck off" gesture ever to Sirius and Remus if he chose to be at Privet Drive rather than with either of them. Also, it was interesting that Remus said he was going back to Surrey on a hunch of Ron's. I think I'd trust Ron's instincts about where Harry might hide.

Dahlia

Anonymous @ August 21 2003, 19:06:06 UTC

I thought perhaps he'd be at the Dursleys', too, but Remus checked there and didn't find Harry.

dahlia_777 @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

babytyggeryss @ August 20 2003, 22:14:37 UTC

Draco does seem to be taking his father's side; I guess that doesn't come as a big surprise. He's at an age were boys still need their fathers but are starting to question the beliefs of their parents and trying to figure out their own independent lines of thought.

However, Draco thinks Lucius walks on water and any disillusionment will be the result of a something he can't ignore--perhaps if something happened to Harry right in front of him.

I think he might be talking his father's side because Lucius hasn't been so noticeable in his actions as Narcissa. Draco doesn't see Lucius's controlling nature or how he bullies his mother.

How Draco was raised may also play a very big role in his reaction. For so much of his life, Narcissa has been content with her place in the world. She married well, gave her husband a son, and re-enforced his poisonous beliefs. Narcissa played the role of Malfoy Wife very well--I'm sure if we look at Lucius's parents we would see the same relationship and the same roles.

Suddenly, she starts breaking the molds. She isn't happy; she rebells. She reads, she thinks, she stands up to Lucius, she leaves Lucius. Draco doesn't know anything different; his family was happy before and now it isn't. Draco fails to see any wrong-doing on his father's part; Lucius's attitudes haven't changed, so the blame must be placed on his mother's shoulders.

Draco, like most children in his place, doesn't see that his mother is unhappy. He doesn't see that his life would most likely be better is his parents didn't live together. He wants things back to how they were when they were happy.

He's scared.

anjenue @ August 20 2003, 22:30:03 UTC

Poor Draco...

You know that theory that people will often repeat something to themselves because saying it out loud helps them believe it?

I think he's starting to realize that His Father isn't the person he thought he was, and so he keeps trying to convince himself otherwise in a futile attempt to make Lucius the good guy.

That, and the fact that he kept repeating about he and His Father going out? He sounds like he's not sure Lucius wants him around anymore...

He's definitely scared.

babytyggeryss @ August 20 2003, 22:43:56 UTC

I'm not sure Lucius wanted to be around his son in the first place and Draco may be finding it harder and harder to ignore that fact.

Notice, the Malfoys' only have one son. How many children does it take to pass on a name? If they were interested in children, they would have had more after Draco.

Lucius only shows up in Draco's life when good manners demand it or when the Malfoy name is in danger of being damaged.

The present head of the Malfoys is simply molding the future head of the Malfoys so he won't be known as "The Sire of the Malfoy Who Fucked Up."

luna_lg @ August 24 2003, 15:33:39 UTC

You forget the signs that Narcissa is actually with child--AGAIN.

saffronlie @ August 21 2003, 00:30:25 UTC

I agree that Draco is insecure about Lucius wanting him around, with the number of times he talks about Diagon Alley and dinner. I wonder if in the flurry of their separation, Narcissa and/or Lucius forgot the "this isn't about you, we still love you very much" reassurance. For one thing, that doesn't sound like something that either of them could say easily. If they didn't really explain things to Draco he will probably feel neglected and worried, in contrast to Harry who was probably reassured multiple times that Sirius and Lupin still love him. If Harry has been talking about that split to Draco recently, then Draco will probably feel the absence of his parents care that much more keenly.

However, these lines:
'My Father, as you must know, is a rather clever and valiant man, so it's always fabulous to spend time with him. He's an excellent role model, and I always feel as though I've learnt so much just by being in his presence. For example, of course, he's obviously displaying patience right now, which I'm sure I ought to learn more of.'
have a definite sarcastic feel to them. It makes me think that Draco isn't really trusting his father either, but just feels that he's the best bet to stay with for now.

tocomfortyou @ August 20 2003, 22:41:50 UTC

Draco = prick.

Oh yes, he's a 17 year old boy. Yes, he's acting like a 17 year old boy. Sadly, most 17 year old boys = pricks.

::sigh::

I want to see Harry and Draco slap some sense into each other. Preferably with mud. And cameras.

kaeda @ August 20 2003, 23:05:50 UTC

I've been lurking forever here, and I've decided to de-lurk, and what a better oppurtunity than to agree with you that 17 year old boys are pricks?

I feel bad for Narcissa, because even though we can see the causes behind Draco's turning against her, it is harder when thrust into the center of a situation to think clearly, and that post can only hurt her. She finally gets a backbone for herself and stands up for what she wants, and puts her foot down, and her son turns his back on her for it. I was very sad when I read that post, and a bit disappointed in Draco, but it is also very in character for him, and I think that's the hardest part to reconcile with. This boy, he IS a prick, and he DOES try to be rather blind when his father is concerned, and yet for some reason a large number of us love him to death.

tocomfortyou @ August 21 2003, 01:08:30 UTC

::slams empty glass on the counter::

AMEN, SISTA!

Tell it like it is. ::belch:: Kids today, they got no respect. Ya love 'em, but they turn on ya in the end.

Don't get me wrong, I love the kid, but he needs to wise up. Hmph.

Terribly sorry, just finished watching Chicago.

kaeda @ August 21 2003, 07:16:07 UTC

17 year old boys are not my favourite people at the moment. They don't THINK.

I think maybe part of the reason that Draco is clinging to his father so badly is that he does have a good idea of what's going on, maybe even realises deep down that his father is at fault, and is clinging to his denial and his illusions of what his father should be.

He's still hurting Narcissa though, because she probably doesn't realise that. Grr.

moojja @ August 21 2003, 10:53:12 UTC

Yes, you're right about 17 years. But at the same time I wonder about Narcissa. Of the two parents, who actually understands Draco better, or knows him better. Narcissa has neglected him for most of his life, and has been an alcoholic as well. Why should he thinks narcissa cares more than lucius?

As nice it is to see Narcissa grow as a person, she has never reach out to Draco as a person. Just a few journal ago, she posted baby pictures of Draco, only to have him point out to her that it it pictures of someone else. I wonder about her feelings for him, she might care but in many ways she is worst than Lucius. B/c with his father, Draco knows what the rules are, but with her, he has no ideas.

The fact he is still angry w/ Harry, b/c he has her attention doesn't help either.

luna_lg @ August 21 2003, 07:51:16 UTC

MOST 17-year-old boys?

Oyyyyy...I'd better watch out next year, when MY lil bro turns 17... -_-;;;

But yes, Draco is a prick. Correct that--he's a DICK! If he really wanna be a real man, then, by God, he's better drop the whole "I'm God of this school" attitude and actually OPEN his eyes!!!

...and yet, it just wouldn't be Draco if he isn't a stuck-up, spoiled bitch. *sighs*

~~~~Li-chan~~~~

dari_brit @ August 20 2003, 23:31:36 UTC

Does it ACTUALLY say that Harry isn't there? I might be hittin' the ship a little too hard, but if it's not explicitly said, I'm still not convinced.

(And even sometimes if it is explicitly said. *^_^*)

noirenails @ August 20 2003, 23:45:50 UTC

No, he didn't say that Harry isn't there. He just informed Harry that people are looking for him. That's not an even a question where he is, it's just a statement. *hopes like a madman*

Anonymous @ August 21 2003, 07:23:24 UTC

You know, I thought things couldn't get any worse, but Narcissa's latest post is breaking my heart. I'm desperately clinging to the belief that whatever he might post on LJ Draco does understand that Lucius isn't blameless and is just trying to keep up a front (having public rows is for Weasleys not Malfoys- attitude, "it's just my mother having a fit and nothing serious, honest!").

Bad August! Bad! *sobs*

- Cyri

Anonymous @ August 21 2003, 09:12:37 UTC

If Narcissa did have an illegitimate child as pointed to in some previous parts of NA isn't it strange that she's make such a large thing of Lucius' infidelity?

Anonymous @ August 21 2003, 09:22:17 UTC

It's never been stated on her account or Lucius's that there is an illegitimate child and, as far as I can remember reading, there has never been suggestion of her being unfaithful...much unlike Lucius.