acetal @ September 9 2003, 03:03:02 UTC

What's also interesting is that Occamy eggs are pure silver. So silver only affects him close to the full moon? Or most strongly affects him close to the full moon. Interesting that it varies like that.

*laughs at the owl remark* Hey, is anyone able to point me towards the one he made about feeling guilty he'd once eaten a house elf?

luna_lg @ September 9 2003, 05:25:46 UTC

Poor Lupin-sensei... He's had a VERY hard day... He's trying to sink into the joy of teaching, and then all this shyte happened. That guy really needs a hug--badly.

Oh, and tons of love to his player--I love the way you developed him over the last couple of months...even though it made August the Month of Wibbly Angst.

luna_lg @ September 9 2003, 05:38:06 UTC I wish they let us edit our comments...

Oh, yeah, I just realized something:

- Drink heavily before each and every Gryffindor/Slytherin lesson.

It appears that there might've actually been a fight between certain students that day. At least, it SEEMED like it...

Either that, or just a VERY huge, possible group-fight.

Anonymous @ September 9 2003, 05:30:36 UTC

I was feeling sorry for Sirius, and wishing everyone would just give him a break, and that he and Harry would reconcile, until I read this post by Lupin. I can't believe Sirius would say that it's none of Harry's business. He's his godson!

loony_moony @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

portkey @ September 9 2003, 06:06:27 UTC

Somehow I don't think 'amused' is quite the right word.

Okay, so yeah, I'm only posting this for icon match-making. I'm too tired to stop myself. Love yours! *grins*

sistermagpie @ September 9 2003, 07:14:08 UTC

I'm having a hard time buying the reality of this storyline anymore. Oh well. My problem.

therealycats @ September 9 2003, 07:30:02 UTC

It's not just you. We've heard nil from Sirius for...what, a week or something? now, and there are three sides to every story. This one, it's Lupin's, Sirius', and the truth. All we're getting is Lupin's. *sigh*

takeonelook @ September 9 2003, 08:17:23 UTC

I am with you. Ever since the 'Atta boy' I've been very skeptical of Remus, that to me was just not a Remus thing to do. So I don't know if I can believe him anymore. I guess I'm just dissapointed in his actions lately. Right now I just really want to hear Sirius's side of the story.

canisetlupus @ September 9 2003, 08:26:27 UTC

Ditto here.
After the "atta boy" thing, I am believing a third (or less) of whatever Remus says about Sirius. He seems more interested in being the victim than in anything else.

Or maybe he has a secondary interest: that, when at last Snape and him have a romance (if they haven't already started) nobody will jump to their throats. After all, "poor" Remus will just be finding the "true love and happiness" that a "bastard" called Sirius Black was "never able" to provide him. (/Dr Evil quoting mode off)

No matter if it's with a man who has constantly humilliated Harry. *shrugs*

Time to shut up.

peccavium @ September 9 2003, 10:15:04 UTC

No matter if it's with a man who has constantly humilliated Harry. *shrugs*


If we're bringing Harry into this, there's a certain death-eater affiliatory relationship I could mention.

Anonymous @ September 9 2003, 10:36:40 UTC

I think her point is just that this isn't Harry's dream daddy either.

canisetlupus @ September 9 2003, 11:38:01 UTC

I am not defending Sirius and/or any relationship with Lucius —which, by the way, wasn't confirmed (of sorts) until he and Remus split. In previous posts, I began everyone of my messages writing "He's made a terrible mistake" or something like that, just to make it clear.

My point is that, for someone that has "taken" many of his decisions based on Harry's welfare (or at least as he tries to portray himself), Remus might be starting a romance with the one teacher that has humilliated Harry over and over and over. I mean, he gave detention to the whole school as a scheme to "isolate Potter". Nice potential daddy, I mean.

If Remus was falling in love with Charlie, like last year, or with someone like him, I would be more willing to believe that Sirius has destroyed his life and that he is only protecting Harry and himself —which, basically, was the tone of the post that started this thread. But to have Remus badmouthing Sirius (when Sirius has remained prudently silent) while having a very nice relationship with Snape (who, as Anonymous said, isn't Harry's dream daddy either) strikes me of confussion or hipocrisy. Maybe both.

BTW, my keyboard is mad and my first language is Spanish. Sorry for any typos, it is a lethal combination. :)

la_trix @ September 9 2003, 10:52:22 UTC

I was pretty surprised that Remus was so supportive of Harry telling Sirius to fuck off, but I just can't believe he would exaggerate Sirius's behavior in an intentional bid to gain sympathy. Unintentionally? Sure, maybe. But not to butter people up for his new romance.

On that subject, Canon!Harry hates Canon!Snape with a bitter, fiery passion. Right now, I think the dislike between NA!Harry and NA!Snape is much milder, even to the point where they may only occasionally be minor annoyances to each other. Although Harry may not jump for joy at the prospect of Snape/Lupin, I don't think he'd be absolutely opposed.

canisetlupus @ September 9 2003, 11:47:04 UTC

While I don't agree (NA!Remus seems an attention-seeker to me, but maybe that is just a byproduct of my idle mind), I concede it might be unintentionally. :)

And yes, NA!Snape is milder than Canon!Snape. But I don't think Harry can easily forget his plan to "isolate Potter" or the fact that he criticizes him publicly whenever he has the chance.

While I don't think NA!Harry would oppose too much to a relationship between Remus and Snape, I *hope* he won't accept it with open arms either. It would just be weird. And I hope that Remus, according to the perfect-parent image he seems so interested in keeping, stops to think about it as well (whatever his conclusions are, of course).

la_trix @ September 9 2003, 12:28:37 UTC

Well, Remus is a self-described "drama queen," and that really does go hand-in-hand with attention seeking, so we're in agreement there. But if he's deliberately conjuring up bad things to say about Sirius without the extreme provocation he's been saying exists, it would be just the vilest thing he could do. I just don't want to believe he'd be capable of it. He's probably not the perfect parent he's been making himself out to be, but I'd like to think he'd realize how much it would hurt Harry in the long run to isolate him from Sirius without good reason.

canisetlupus @ September 9 2003, 16:28:13 UTC

I've been thinking about this, and while I don't believe Remus actually made up anything, there's something that doesn't make sense.

If Sirius was strutting as Remus claims, wouldn't he post something in such tone? I mean, Sirius was cynical (or imprudent, whatever you believe) enough to flirt with Lucius where anybody could read it. If he was as heartless as Remus claims he is, why does Sirius remain silent each time Remus attacks him? Why, after Harry's post and Remus support, he didn't defend himself? It doesn't make sense.

Maybe he isn't the evil bastard Remus complains about.

So, maybe Remus is just exaggerating his row with Sirius (he's hurt, after all, and in case he's actually considering Snape as a potential partner, then Sirius' flaws are tenfolded in his eyes).

What I do question is his decision to post it where Harry can read it. OTOH, this is the same Remus that celebrated the fact that Harry told Sirius to...er... get out of his life. Maybe he wants Harry to side with him even more, even at the cost of, as you write, "isolating him from Sirius". I sincerely hope he's not noticing it. That would be too mean for words.

anoni @ September 11 2003, 00:58:40 UTC

::claps:: Thank you - I love it when other people summarise my words for me. ^_^

Like you said, it is hard to believe that Remus is lying outright, but there are too many loopholes in his version of the story, and besides, I approve of his recent actions as much as I approve of Sirius' past actions, ie. not very. So I'm reserving my opinions about 'right' and 'wrong' until much, much later.

And it's strange. I used to adore Remus, but now... basically, he's coming across as rather petty and attention-seeing, which doesn't really correspond with my perceptions of him. I mean, Sirius doesn't try to gather allies, or to portray himself as the 'good guy', but in the end, is he really that much worse than Remus? He did make mistakes, yes. But he's trying to apologise. And he doesn't use any "little moves" to gather sympathy from us or from other characters. Nor does he bad-mouth anyone. Remus, on the other hand, just continually derides Sirius and their relationship, while showcasing himself in wonderful and growing friendships with all those around him.

I'm not sure I'm making sense, but when Sirius does something I don't like, he usually does it outright, and it's usually something big. Remus, on the other hand, is doing a lot of little things that I don't approve of, but he's not doing them conspiciously. It almost reminds me of the fights in Primary School where A would punch B, B would make a fuss and act innocent (and get praised for not retalliating), then go and pinch A under the table later when nobody watches. And since A was actually sorry for losing his temper, and because he doesn't want to be seen as a retalliator either, he doesn't do anything. But all everyone sees is that B is good and A is mean.

I'm not really objective here... sorry. It's the bad mood I'm in, I guess. I'll repeat that I still love Remus, but I like defending the underdogs. That, and Remus' continual flow of subtle attacks - whether it be in the form of negative comments about Sirius or the emphasis he places on his own near perfect friendships - is becoming irritating really quickly.

canisetlupus @ September 11 2003, 15:48:05 UTC

And it's strange. I used to adore Remus, but now... basically, he's coming across as rather petty and attention-seeing, which doesn't really correspond with my perceptions of him. I mean, Sirius doesn't try to gather allies, or to portray himself as the 'good guy', but in the end, is he really that much worse than Remus? He did make mistakes, yes. But he's trying to apologise. And he doesn't use any "little moves" to gather sympathy from us or from other characters. Nor does he bad-mouth anyone. Remus, on the other hand, just continually derides Sirius and their relationship, while showcasing himself in wonderful and growing friendships with all those around him.

Completely agreed.There's nothing else I can add (right to my growing ill-feelings toward Remus).

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 07:21:14 UTC

Draco has insulted and humiliated Harry, consistently and thoroughly, a lot more than Snape has, and Harry seems to get along okay with him ... :-)

canisetlupus @ September 10 2003, 14:24:25 UTC

Because hormones won't let him think straight. *wink*

luna_lg @ September 11 2003, 19:04:11 UTC

*blinks* ...VERY good point!

Anonymous @ September 9 2003, 09:42:34 UTC

the same. After this post I had to be srry for Lupin but somehow I just wanted to hug Sirius

arborwin @ September 10 2003, 16:53:44 UTC

Likewise.

lunadeath02 @ September 9 2003, 09:56:43 UTC

So we have a date for tea then, and that is good. The highlight of my whole bloody day, really.

I know this isn't meant to be taken a certain way, but I still must go: AWWWWW!!! A DATE WITH LUPIN! Heh. ^_^

Anonymous @ September 9 2003, 12:13:59 UTC

This is weird and possibly from left field. I've noticed people interpreting some of the Snape and Lupin posts to indicate possibility of a growing intimate relationship there. Particularly recently, someone here, I don't remember who, speculated that the racket Sibyll heard (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sibyllsays/2018.html) was The Sex being had in the dungeons, i.e. in the vicinity of Snape's domain. But, she says that it sounded like ghosts having a "row" -- a fight.

And now Sirius supposedly sashayed into Lupin's office thinking he could get Lupin back. Why would he think that? What happened to make him go from sulky to strutting?

I'm thinking the row Sibyll heard was Sirius confronting Snape about his relationship with Lupin, after Snape's account of the Hogsmeade shopping trip. I'm also thinking that while Snape could have done the whole bit with being infuriatingly obtuse with his answers, if Sirius asked him point blank "Areyousleepingwithmywellex/husband/thing?" Snape would have answered honestly.

If this is the case, clearly Snape said no. Or Sirius wouldn't have felt confident enough to break out the strut.

I'd also speculate that getting that 'no' in terms of sex would have encourage Sirius to dig deeper, you know? Maybe ask if there is anything at all going on between Snape & Lupin other than friendship. Which would have gotten a 'no' also, cf the strutting.

Anyway. Just thoughts, as I'm unaccountably interested in this whole Lupin&Sirius&Snape&Harry story.

la_trix @ September 9 2003, 12:42:24 UTC

The racket Sibyl heard was definitely not Snape and Lupin fighting. Sibyl's player has posted to confirm (twice, in fact) that it was absolutely the ghost that she heard.

You're right to wonder about this, though: Why was Sirius strutting and confident when he talked to Remus? Sirius seems to be in a full-on sulk lately, what with deleting all his icons and retreating from the NA community for the last couple weeks.

This is assuming, of course, that Remus's assessment of his attitude was correct …

Anonymous @ September 9 2003, 13:04:57 UTC

Ah, well if the player has confirmed it, then never mind about that particular bit of the speculation. Thanks. I should not post when I do not read every single thread here. :)

la_trix @ September 9 2003, 12:51:37 UTC

Oops. I meant to write "Snape and Sirius fighting." Anyway, it wasn't either pair.

ponymouse @ September 9 2003, 16:45:14 UTC

Could it by any chance be someone who polyjuiced themself to look like Sirius? If Sirius really is in total sulk-mode, then perhaps he hasn't been going online, either, and therefore has no idea what's being said about him?
Hurrah for crackpot theories. X_x;;

jacay @ September 9 2003, 17:36:24 UTC

But who would do that, and who would want to, and who would know enough about Sirius to know how he would act?

ponymouse @ September 9 2003, 19:12:20 UTC

Pettigrew? In the book, they knew Sirius was the closest to Harry. Maybe somehow they're breaking up Harry's family? Starting with Sirius?????

I have no clue.

windtear @ September 9 2003, 18:26:59 UTC

I want to smack Remus Lupin up the side of the head, and demand he get his head straight.

I want to smack Sirius Black up the side of the head, and demand he sit down and explain his behaviour. I'd make him write it out, with explanations. It'd clarify things for him, at least.

I want Snape to step back and demand Lupin clean up his messes before beginning a new... anything, really. But this whole thing is so very messy and Snape is going to get it all over him if he's not careful.

But at least Harry is coming by for tea. I anticipate a... discussion.

Anonymous @ September 9 2003, 19:53:09 UTC

I dunno. All of Remus' posts are so rigidly one-sided. Hard to tell what really happened, what was really said. He does love to paint himself as a wronged saint and Sirius as a deadbeat dad and sexual ne'er do well. This is making me more sympathetic toward Sirius and quite disgusted (and suspicious of) Remus "the wronged" Lupin. Which is ironic, because in canon I love the werewolf and loathe the dog.

petitesl @ September 9 2003, 22:33:20 UTC

If Lupin wasn't exaggerating, then I am flabbergasted. I can't believe that Sirius would do/say such things and the disbelief is strong enought that I wonder how objective Lupin is about the situation. The general Sirius mood lately didn't seem cocky, or strut-ish at all. I have trouble seeing someone who was so sulky do such a complete 180. Yet, I also have a hard time seeing Lupin overly slanting the truth. Sigh. I want to see Sirius's side of the story.

el_erzulie @ September 9 2003, 22:51:06 UTC

Just... ditto. I was also very shocked to see Remus revealing all of those personal details that really aren't anybody else's business. Sure, we want to know, but that's a humiliating post for Sirius and I can't help but, as you say, want to hear Sirius's side. I'm sick of just hearing Remus's. I don't think he's as much the "victim" as it seems.

[The extra "s" after the apostrophe still looks wrong to me... OOtP has ruined my sense of grammar].

aeisha @ September 10 2003, 01:46:06 UTC

I agree too! It just doesn't seem like the Sirius we know, who's been lying low and avoiding confrontation for so long... He hasn't been his usual "strutty" self for some time.

el_erzulie @ September 10 2003, 03:08:13 UTC

Precisely! And doesn't it just leave a bad taste in your mouth? Ugh. I have more faith in Sirius then to think he seriously performed that little parade. He's been depressed and upset, not cocky.

Unless he was completely sodding pissed, but I think Remus would have mentioned that. *L* Strangely enough, I would like Sirius and Lucius to shag very much right now as I am getting a little bitter. That, and mother henish. *grumps about*

eponis @ September 10 2003, 03:33:21 UTC

I'm sorry, but could you clarify what you're saying?

I don't know if I'd call Sirius's actions a "parade." He went to Remus to try to make things right in the way he knew best; when Remus didn't accept it, Sirius got upset. That's not a parade; it's a man who's hurt and lashing out because he can't have his way (for once in that relationship).

At any rate, what other alternative do we have than to believe that he did this? I seriously doubt that these polyjuice-conspiracy-theories are likely - it just seems utterly against the spirit of N_A - and the only alternative is that Remus is lying, or at least seriously misrepresenting, what happened. Are you actually accusing him of that? We've never known him to lie in his journal in any way before.

If I may ask, when you say you have "faith" in Sirius, what is that faith based on? A man who would sleep with a Death Eater, as you just encouraged him to do and as he actually did; a man who would put his sex life over his obligation to his godson; a man who seems to think that as many times as he chooses to break Remus's heart, a glib apology will make everything okay - with a man like that, what's there to have faith in?

Also, what would Sirius shagging Lucius help?

el_erzulie @ September 10 2003, 07:17:57 UTC

I was not in a serious, analytical mood when I posted that. I forget how everything is torn apart here for meaning. So, this is what I meant:

When I say "parade" I'm not referring to Sirius's insults or reaction to Remus not jumping into his arms. Obviously, Sirius is not doing anything to help the situation by acting that way. What I mean by parade is the way Sirius strutted into the room, smirk in place, etc. Lately he has been more depressed and apathetic than that, and so I have to wonder what motivated him to do it.

I don't believe the polyjuice potion theory. I still like Remus, and certainly don't have anything against him. All I mean is that it's hard to be objective when you're personally involved in a situation, so chances are he's not able to see things as Sirius does. Even if what Sirius sees is factually wrong, that still motivates his reaction so at least we can understand some of his reasons. Basically, I would like to hear what Sirius thinks about all of this.

I'm joking about Sirius/Lucius. While it would be entirely sexy [although I can't say I am a huge fan of NA!Lucius, Jason Isaacs as icons is not to be ignored] it would only complicate issues. Besides which, I want Sirius and Remus back together. Or at least on speaking terms where they can be marginally civil and resolve some of the tension.

Also, I don't like Remus/Severus. I poked my head into your journal and I see that you do [unless you just really, really wanted lupercus...] so perhaps you won't have a problem with it. I, however, stayed away from Seamus/Dean for a long time and to this day don't read Ron/Harry because

el_erzulie @ September 10 2003, 07:22:27 UTC And the essay, which apparently wouldn't work in one message, continues...

I don't like to see friendships turned into something sexual all the time. I know that's what happened with Remus/Sirius in it's own way, but to see it as it's happening is annoying. I like to watch friendships develop but I swear, it's become a rare thing for it not to go further than that. Besides which, I think things between Sirius/Remus should be resolved before Remus/Severus do anything. It would be, to say the least, a very awkward situation.

As for faith in Sirius's character, I'm more referring to what I suppose you could call preconceptions. In NA, his actions have been dismal many times. However, as someone who enjoys canon Sirius, it's upsetting to watch what seems to be a real character deterioration. I don't mean to disrespect the people who created NA, and I'm sure it's all justified, but I would like to see Sirius do something right.

Also, everybody siding with Remus and instantly jumping on Sirius to get angry at him in some form isn't helping. Even if his post is shows he's upset, they'll take things in the wrong way and attack him. Human nature, but still aggravating.

So there you have it. Disagree all you want, but at least you can disagree with something I've actually said or intended to say.

sistermagpie @ September 10 2003, 08:21:41 UTC

I can't clarify the other poster, but speaking for me:

I don't know if I'd call Sirius's actions a "parade." He went to Remus to try to make things right in the way he knew best; when Remus didn't accept it, Sirius got upset.

That's the way Remus keeps presenting it but it just doesn't gel for me anymore. Sirius may have all sorts of faults but he's not completely without logic. Frankly, Sirius' own posts seemed to hint that he had given up on trying to get back with Remus because he thought it was impossible and sleeping with Lucius was part of that. Remus' posts feel almost like poking now, like Sirius is the one who isn't interested and Remus is trying to provoke him by posting what a jerk he is in his journal.

Are you actually accusing him of that? We've never known him to lie in his journal in any way before.


Lying and being biased are two different things, but no, I don't think he's lying and that's what makes it hard for me to believe the situation. Given the choice of Remus as an unreliable narrator or the reality of the world is warping to fit Remus' narration, I'd pick the former because I can easily assimilate the first into Remus' character while the latter leaves me totally at sea.

If I may ask, when you say you have "faith" in Sirius, what is that faith based on?A man who would sleep with a Death Eater, as you just encouraged him to do and as he actually did; a man who would put his sex life over his obligation to his godson;

Well, I don't have faith in him that he wouldn't sleep with a DE, that's a given. But that's not what anybody's having trouble with.

a man who seems to think that as many times as he chooses to break Remus's heart, a glib apology will make everything okay - with a man like that, what's there to have faith in?

It doesn't seem like Remus' heart is broken. It doesn't seem like Sirius thinks a glib apology will make everything okay, except in Remus' posts. But if this is the way things are really supposed to be then I'm just going to have to admit I can't suspend my disbelief that much. I think however one feels about Sirius Black, both in canon and NA, he's not just the cad in a Lifetime Channel Movie to Remus' trod-upon Judith Light heroine. And I can't fit that dynamic into the Marauders' history which, to me, must be clear in any slash relationship between them.

Also, what would Sirius shagging Lucius help?

::shrug:: Sirius ends up having a good effect on Lucius?:-)

black_dog @ September 10 2003, 15:01:33 UTC

*Loves your brain, disagrees on what Sirius is capable of, has taken a vow of silence on further S/R.*

But not before replying to dailyplanet's post, below, on how Sirius may be using his silence. ;)

el_erzulie @ September 11 2003, 01:27:48 UTC

taradiane just mentioned that she found your posts interesting, so I have to laugh when I come here and you've both replied. *L* And I've explained myself now, but it was interesing to read what you - [Unknown LJ tag] - had to say about it. I agree, your brain is a work of wonder. ^_^

tabiji @ September 10 2003, 01:51:22 UTC

I think the only key piece of information that we're missing is Lucius' DE paystub. NA has downplayed it, but we do know that Lucius is a DE, and is probably right in Voldie's inner circle. NA may be an AU now, but I think it's pretty likely that the Voldemort in this universe also wants Harry DEAD.

If my ex was screwing someone that worked for someone who wanted to kill my kid, (adopted or not), I'd damn well throw his ass out, and damn well shout about it to anyone that would listen. And I sure as hell would encourage the kid to take a stand to the parent who was being an outright hypocryte and ignoring his parental obligations.

I don't see Remus' post as an attempt to try to generate support or sympathy for his side. To me it looks like he's reaffirming publicly (maybe to remind himself, too) exactly why he's not going to let himself fall into the same old pattern of a) Sirius fucking up, b) Remus getting upset and c) letting Sirius charm/guilt his way back into Remus' good graces. Sirius still hasn't taken any responsibility for his actions and Remus is sticking to his guns. Remus is taking a firm stand against Sirius' irresponsible behaviour/bad judgment/fill-in-transgressions-here because previously he was the only one that had to put up with it. While maybe that wasn't ideal, it was something Remus could live with, because it was just him having to deal with it, but now it's not just him, it's Harry too.

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 19:48:59 UTC

RANT ALERT. (deep breath) Ok. Lupin had no clue that Sirius and Lucius had a mutual attraction before this? None? After knowing both for what, 25 years? Knowing they'd had sex before and wanted to again, Harry be damned? Knowing that Sirius in fact continued to be attracted to a panoply of men after their engagement? If Remus is shocked at Sirius' behavior, it's because he made a conscious choice to be oblivious to it before -- and that, in my opinion, poses as much danger to Harry's well-being as what his ex-mate and Lucius did with their lower anatomies. Moi, I think he's taking the moral high ground to disguise the fact that he can't stand the idea of a nasty old death eater being able to give his lover something he couldn't -- wilder sex, a better blow job, a sense of danger, whatever. Just my opinion. (Lupin is seriously beginning to annoy me, can you tell? Reminds me of those nagging, pathetic hausfraus who marry wild boys thinking they can change them, and when -- surprise! -- they can't, they nail themselves to a cross and scream "Martyr!")

anoni @ September 10 2003, 03:35:25 UTC

Um, my first two-part post. ^^;;

One thing I am curious about is Remus' insistence on bringing up past events. Those are *history*, for god's sake. People change after a decade. I guess it can be seen as though Remus is trying to convince himself that he and Sirius were never meant for each other, that they had been different even back in the school days, and well... this *is* a rather effective way of putting both their past friendship and their relationship in the category of 'the past'. Maybe.

It just seems rather petty, though. And I can't help but believe Remus is forcing Harry to choose sides at a time when Harry is nowhere near emotionally stable enough to make a clear decision (his parents have just *split*), and without really offering him any semblance of a chance for objectivity. I never thought Remus was that type of person...

Sirius, where *are* you? More than a week of absence - from both the posts and comments - is rather odd, especially when so many things have been happening. The beginning of the school year, for one, and other such major events. And certain peoples' comments too, of course. >.<

Incidentally, I have serious doubts about the truth of some of Remus' comments. I have ever since the 'atta boy', and I know I'm not alone. They aren't mentally dismissed, but they're put through a filter, and the flow is placed 'on hold' until I at least see Sirius say 'hi' somewhere.

I also happen to agree on Sirius' not seeing Harry first. What, in the end, is the point of going, "Harry, I'm sorry. But... er, Remus and I are still not speaking to each other, so your family is still broken." One, Harry would not believe in the apology. And secondly... what good would it do? Harry isn't ready to accept Sirius back - he still blames Sirius almost entirely, from what I can see. And he's still a teenager who wished for a happy family, for once, and never got one.

Yes, it *is* Harry's business, but I'm not quite sure Sirius did say exactly what Remus said he did. I mean, if it were me, I would be thinking, "Seeing him won't do any good unless *we* get this sorted out. And this argument isn't about *him*, though it affects him." ::shrugs:: I'm not Remus or Sirius, of course.

And one last thing... Remus did say something before the wedding:

anoni @ September 10 2003, 03:40:18 UTC Part Two (cont...)

Look, I love Sirius. I don't bloody care who knows about that or what anyone thinks about it. I've known the man more than half my life yet every day I learn something new about him. I have been in love with him since I was fifteen years old and I don't see that going away any time soon. He is not perfect. He is flawed, as all of us are, and damaged by a terrible thing that has happened in his life. He lost thirteen years of his life. There are pieces of himself missing that he might never, ever be able to find again because they were taken away, bit by bit, by Azkaban and the Dementors. And I understand and accept this.

Believe me, if anyone knows how it feels to have been interrupted, I do.

I also understand that everyone reacts and deals with their problems in different ways. Three years is not long enough for someone to put the pieces of their mind and spirit back together again, after over a decade of coming apart a piece at a time. We're wizards, not miracle workers, and we are not superhuman. Sirius does what he can to stay sane, and while I strive to help him adjust to a real life again it would do me no good to change him, because then he would no longer be the man I love.

Yes, I do realise Sirius has done some horrid things, but I really do think Remus was - in spite of himself - expecting too much. Look at his words, about what he said he was willing to accept. Did Sirius' actions go so far outside what Remus supposedly expected? (I am still in doubt over the sleeping-with-Lucius thing, by the way, though I know many people say that that was *all* that happened... I still insist there's more to it, so that doesn't come into my equation.) No. Remus *said* he expected imperfection. Sirius gave him imperfection. But Remus also said he was willing to accept that. Has he accepted them, though? No, and in fact, he's reacted rather strongly.

Yes, Remus is human, but he has to face the fact that he *does* have expectations of Sirius. And because he doesn't acknowledge those, he doesn't really see himself as anything but slightly imperfect (ie. the only-human type). And since *he* didn't do much wrong, the blame must be Sirius', right? ::sigh::

I think... deep down, Sirius never thought he would be good enough for Remus. Thus the self-destructive behaviour, to prove his conception of Remus right. Someone discussed this before. ^^ It's just rather sad that Remus lived up to Sirius' negative expectations... because to a large degree, I think Sirius thinks of himself as a failure too.

Then, there's Remus' argument that Sirius doesn't know what he's apologising for. Well... I don't think he's quite so clueless. He hadn't conversed in a friendly way with Lucius for two weeks before the split. His remarks - when they did communicate - were blunt, unencouraging and definitely not suggestive. After the split... he did something bad. We *don't* know exactly what. But keep in mind that Remus - in spite of all his support from Narcissa and Severus - didn't react all that well either, if his recent actions are an indication. Sirius' only support came from someone encouraging less-than-goodness. So I'm of the mind that Sirius does know - at least a bit - of what he's apologising for, and that Remus simply isn't ready to accept the apology, or to *help* him see where he's gone wrong.

Er... I sound like I hate Remus. Really, I don't. I love the characters to pieces. But I miss Sirius, and it just feels like he's giving up, and he's lonely and friendless and always in the wrong and he needs a damned friend who *isn't* Lucius. And he needs a major hug, too.

::wibble:: That's all. Sorry for the length. ^^;

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 07:12:59 UTC

goldstar!

anoni @ September 11 2003, 00:34:20 UTC

Thank you! ::hugs, whoever you are::

el_erzulie @ September 10 2003, 07:28:15 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

There's absolutely no need to apologize for the length. That just explained everything that's been whizzing around my head, but much more concisely. *L*

I cannot give you a gold star, but... <3 thankyou. It's so hard to justify still liking Sirius sometimes, but what you said... well, I believe it will have to be quoted in the future. ^_~

anoni @ September 11 2003, 00:31:28 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

::blush:: Thank you! Sirius is hard to like at times, but I don't really trust Remus' representation (misrepresentation?) of the events at the moment, and besides, I'm finding it difficult not to feel at least sympathetic towards Sirius in spite of everything. I'm glad you agree with me. ^_^ <3s

el_erzulie @ September 11 2003, 01:12:39 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

I'm glad someone agrees with me, too, it can be rough still liking Sirius when 99% of people don't. Anyway. Seriously... <3. And I looked in your profile, and you're even from Australia! Faith in my country growing. ^_~ I will leave you alone now, though, I really must stop harassing people. (O^__^O)

anoni @ September 11 2003, 23:18:20 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

Nobody has to like him, but he deserves a chance as much as anyone else.

Faith in what must be one of the slowest countries in the world. ::watches snails pass by:: Joy, oh joy. And no worries; I tend to stalk people online before I give up and turn them into friends. XD Like your icon too, by the way. ^^

el_erzulie @ September 12 2003, 05:10:17 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

My Rei one? *bounces* Thankyou! Hee. Can I add you? ^_~ Then again, if you add me I wwill have to try very hard to NOT whine as much as I do. *wibble* I'm so boring.

Too true. There's no reason for everyone to act reasonable ot others and just not even let Sirius justify anything... bah.

anoni @ September 12 2003, 05:43:45 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

Sure! I'll add you back. ^_^

Except that Sirius is more blatantly in the wrong, while Remus knows how to be subtle. As you said, bah.

canisetlupus @ September 11 2003, 15:37:37 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

Agreed, agreed, completely agreed.
I wouldn't trust Sirius at all if it wasn't for Remus attitude.

(And please, remember I am not defending him. Some persons seem to confuse sympathy or empathy towards a belittled character with a blind justification for his actions).

anoni @ September 11 2003, 23:14:47 UTC Re: Part Two (cont...)

Well, with me, perhaps I am defending him as a person. But that doesn't mean I will defend all of his choices, or all of his actions. It just means that I think he is being treated unfairly.

After all, even a criminal deserves a fair trial, but most of the jury members seem to have made up their minds without even listening to the defendant's case... if you'll forgive the analogy. That isn't right.

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 07:27:38 UTC

I also happen to agree on Sirius' not seeing Harry first. What, in the end, is the point of going, "Harry, I'm sorry. But... er, Remus and I are still not speaking to each other, so your family is still broken." One, Harry would not believe in the apology. And secondly... what good would it do?

There's something to be said for making the effort. That's what grown-ups do. Especially godfathers.

As for Harry not believing him ... So many people on this board are willing to make excuses for Sirius simply because we are not hearing his side of the story.

So why wouldn't somebody who loves him?

dailyplanet @ September 10 2003, 10:11:20 UTC LOL SIRIUS!!

I just want to congratulate Sirius on this not-saying-a-peep tactic, if a tactic is what it is.

My sister uses that one --> every time there's a major fight she withdraws into silence and lets the other combatant explain to the world what's going on.

I'm telling you, there's no getting around the power of that maneuver!

Invariably the person talking just looks bitter and biased (and naturally they are when dealing with HER), because we all know there are always TWO SIDES to a story. Eventually friend and family start to say, "Shut up with the whining, we want to hear from *poor silent person*!"

One of these days I'm going to wise up and be the one to GO SILENT, but my sister is so good at it, I would be the one to break first and spill my miserable guts to my friends...Dammit!!

black_dog @ September 10 2003, 14:56:32 UTC Re: LOL SIRIUS!!

Yay for this! I am so baffled by the Sirius sympathy. I mean, philosophical sympathy for the character, who is done brilliantly, sure. But in terms of dealing with someone like that in real life -- there's just a practical limit to what people should be expected to bear, and can afford to risk.

I think you're totally, totally right about Sirius' passive-aggressive use of silence here, to play off Remus' tendency to run at the mouth and to make Sirius himself seem like the unfairly maligned party. By pure coincidence, it is also an excellent tactic for a person who, really, has nothing to say in his own defense.

And I am also so baffled by the notion that Remus' making the case for himself, after a traumatic breakup, is somehow petty and self-serving. It's true that Remus sometimes pushes the bounds of decorum, but he is what he is -- a very emotional person who wears his heart on his sleeve to some extent and keeps nothing in. Yes, sometimes I'd like to tell Remus that his self-justification is making him look bad, that it looks like piling on and is maybe a bit indiscreet. And he may or may not be correct about assuming that Sirius was taking forgiveness for granted -- I won't take Remus' word as the final testimony on someone else's head. But I just don't see Remus as being capable of actual scheming, of calculatedly playing the situation.

People have trouble with Remus' report of what Sirius said about Harry. But I think Sirius is perfectly capable of dismissing Harry's interest in his behavior, exactly as reported, because when his own behavior is in question Sirius has been utterly resistant to any public introspection about what Lucius stands for as a threat to Harry. He refuses to acknowledge why this particular infidelity is different from other infidelities.

Grr. I promised myself I would shut up about S/R for a while, because all it gets down to is a visceral reaction to personalities rather than an argument that can be rationally supported. So, a little too late, I will shut up now. But I loved your comment and thought it was a great perspective on what S is doing.

dailyplanet @ September 10 2003, 17:18:42 UTC Re: LOL SIRIUS!!

But in terms of dealing with someone like that in real life -- there's just a practical limit to what people should be expected to bear, and can afford to risk.

I've been reading this thread and have to admit too that it confuses me how many people seem to be saying Lupin somehow failed Sirius because he's holding him to some impossible standard ...

I'm like WHOA now, hold up, is there no limit on what Lupin is supposed to put up with? He's supposed to take everything and be reasonable and mild-mannered about it because Sirius has a few (or many) issues?

I think if he did and was charitable about the break-up, telling everyone pleasantly, "Well we were married happily a few months ago but now it's all over, no hard feelings, I'm meeting Sirius for coffee and a chat so we can split up our books and also the boy..." Hey he wouldn't be human.

Or half-human as it may be.

And if he sounds pissed and bitter, isn't that natural? How many nasty break-ups have you guys seen? People are never at their most saintly at these times.

If what we know about this situation is true, I think Lupin was right to not let Sirius walk all over him when he was making nicey-nicey with the guy who tried to kill Harry.

I think that's reasonable. I don't think that's an impossibly high expectation or some sort of problem with Lupin's emotional wiring.... Am I a heartless kook to think this way??

sistermagpie @ September 10 2003, 19:22:32 UTC Re: LOL SIRIUS!!

Well, I don't think Remus failed Sirius or set up an impossible standard at all, but I also think it's hysterical that Sirius can do nothing and still be said to be doing something nefarious to poor Remus. That kind of plotting seems rather beyond NA!Sirius if you ask me. Self-control isn't a real strong point of his. If he's not talking, I think he's just got nothing to say. He's sulking. He probably just saying, "everyone will believe the worst of me anyway," and has retreated into resentment and self-pity. Not everybody likes to spill their guts to the world.

I don't see what people are allegedly expecting Remus to "put up with" here. He doesn't have to take Sirius back. He never has to say another nice thing to Sirius again for as long as he lives as far as I'm concerned. He can spit at him in the hallway and change all his icons to "Sirius sleeps with Death Eaters." (Okay, if I worked for the school I might tell him this kind of post is going to make the DADA classes more difficult so take it to e-mail.) He and Harry can do a new godfather ceremony that nullifies the first one and replaces Sirius with Remus. He can fall in love with Snape and adopt Harry and sing koombayah while Sirius dies alone in a gutter and I won't judge him for it. I don't know what else I'm supposed to say. The fact remains I love the Marauder friendship and I don't see it here.

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 20:20:23 UTC Re: LOL SIRIUS!!

"but I also think it's hysterical that Sirius can do nothing and still be said to be doing something nefarious to poor Remus."

Hahahahahahahaha. I agree.

Anonymous @ September 10 2003, 22:16:48 UTC Re: LOL SIRIUS!!

"but I also think it's hysterical that Sirius can do nothing and still be said to be doing something nefarious to poor Remus."

Yes, it's amazing how that works, isn't it? Curious...

dailyplanet @ September 10 2003, 23:09:45 UTC Re: LOL SIRIUS!!

He never has to say another nice thing to Sirius again for as long as he lives as far as I'm concerned. He can spit at him in the hallway and change all his icons to "Sirius sleeps with Death Eaters." (Okay, if I worked for the school I might tell him this kind of post is going to make the DADA classes more difficult so take it to e-mail.) He and Harry can do a new godfather ceremony that nullifies the first one and replaces Sirius with Remus. He can fall in love with Snape and adopt Harry and sing koombayah while Sirius dies alone in a gutter and I won't judge him for it.

I'm imagining the reaction on NA if he did any of things ..... I think he should, just to see the NRaged posts of Horror!!!

LOL!!!! *egging the players on*

Anonymous @ September 13 2003, 12:05:13 UTC

Was Sirius the one that left the food and water outiside Remus's door?? *crosses fingers*