katrionaa @ March 31 2003, 08:21:52 UTC

I'd be running too! Even though they are just studying together, Pansy scares me.

And I'm sure it will be interesting to read what potterstinks says about Sally-Anne. (Oranges, grapes, canteloupe? Bananas are still the best!) :D

deche @ March 31 2003, 08:29:59 UTC

I have inside info on the date. Ok... Not really.

bookshop @ March 31 2003, 08:33:02 UTC

Hey, you. Let's get our inside info together and... compare. *eyebrow waggle*

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 08:33:52 UTC

*bites fingernails for harry*

You know, I'm beginning to wonder who we should be biting our fingernails for.

Does anyone else find Draco's post here, and his whole exchange with Weasley that follows, to be just a bit poignant? Some genuine pain underneath his usual snark? It's the second time in recent days Draco has talked about not being understood, which is a slightly different thing, and a more vulnerable thing, than the usual subjects of his self-pity.

What if it were Draco who made a confession that mysterious night, and Harry who freaked out and rejected him? It would explain Draco's utter, hurt silence, and his backpedaling series of "dates." It might explain why Harry is so willing to "humiliate" himself by making overtures to Draco -- he might perceive himself to be in a genuine power position (even if he's having second thoughts about his reaction) and not feel he was abasing himself at all.

Just a thought. And of course one guess is as good as another until we find out. But I know I've just been assuming that it was Draco who somehow rejected Harry. And yet, Draco really seems forlorn here, almost betrayed, and it made me wonder if we've got things backwards.

[And yes, I should have done this as a separate community post, but I can't figure out how to do that. *facepalms*]

anamirza @ March 31 2003, 08:44:07 UTC

I'm beginning to wonder who we should be biting our fingernails for.

Most anyone is fair game these days - but Ron, Harry and Draco surely top the list. All of them.

second time in recent days Draco has talked about not being understood

But I think Draco's friends (at least Pansy and Millicent) DO underestand him. If anything, they're a little too observant for his comfort. I think it's his parents who are still deluded.

What if it were Draco who made a confession that mysterious night

Wow, great idea. Then "friends are not supposed to fly off the handle like that" would be something of a dig at Potter, too. And just_harry's behaviour is certainly consistent with feeling in a position of power over Malfoy.

The only problems with the idea that I can see are, how did it come about? I mean, Harry's the one who was drunk. Why would Malfoy do that? I can't imagine that, if Harry were moping about feeling left out by Remus and Sirius that Malfoy would be inclined to offer comfort by confessing something personal.

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 10:18:30 UTC

how did it come about? I mean, Harry's the one who was drunk. ?

A fair question, again it's all speculation, but it's fun anyway and shakes up unexamined assumptions.

I just spent a little time revisiting the 3/22 posts -- has anyone previously commented on the "missing letter" bit? Forgive me for not linking -- there are multiple comments in the relevant posts by both Harry and Ron. But in short:

Around 10:45, Harry, at Lupin's, posts to Ron wondering where he is, and conversation happens over the next hour, somewhat confusingly, on both Harry's LJ and Ron's LJ. But at a crucial moment, Harry and Ron talk about a note Harry was to have left for Ron, reminding him to come to Lupin's. Harry says, "oh, sorry I've got it in my pocket," Ron says no, you gave it to me after all, and then there's a bit of stage action over what note, exactly, it is that's still in Harry's pocket -- all this on Ron's LJ.

At that very moment, Harry starts frantically posting for Draco on a different thread on Ron's LJ (same entry)-- 5 times in the course of 20 minutes. Then back to the Ron exchange, where Harry ends by abruptly saying he's not feeling well. At about 11:30 Cho reports seeing Harry drinking by himself. And then he abruptly leaves Lupin's, and the rest is . . . mystery.

What was in the note? If it wasn't Harry's note to Ron, was it an unsent note to Draco? Was it a note from Draco? Was it a date, or a confession, or some other intended breakthrough that Harry forgot about in the excitement over Lupin?

Malfoy makes a solitary post on Ron's LJ about 9:30, about being able to read Ron's allegedly filtered posts. Was he just being visible for Harry's sake, as a kind of puzzled reminder?

Next morning's post from Malfoy is his bitter reflection on being alone, doing prefect duty the previous night, while the rest of Hogwarts were "carousing." And after that, the "eligible witch" posts begin.

Did Harry do something unforgivable by forgetting the note? If so, his drunkenness later would be a red herring, the "incident" would have preceded the drunkenness. Did he run off to try to make it up to Draco, and then in the course of the night a furious, hurt Draco admitted something he regretted?

Anyway, all fun to think about. Lunch is over, so my detective work for the day is done.

anamirza @ March 31 2003, 11:16:18 UTC

That's a good point about the note - it's one of the still-unexplained things from that night. I never could quite figure out what was going on there.

So do you think Malfoy got stood up? It almost sounds like it.

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 11:34:15 UTC

Hmmm, yeah, trying it on, it fits more and more. I mean, when last we left them, they had had their breakthrough Quidditch conversation, and Harry had teased Draco about his broom being too fancy to actually use. So I can see that leading to a night flight, and some walks around the lake, and maybe, finally, to some promised time alone together when the teachers are at Lupin's and Draco's got a pass for prefect duty . . . And then Harry just forgets. How devastating.

Feels like there could be more -- feels like that's part of it, though. We know that Harry ran away from Lupin's and was MIA for a while, we know that Draco returned to his rooms "in the morning," so there's still room for a scene of some sort between them. We know the "house elves" picked that night to rearrange his furniture, which is maybe Pansy and Millicent proving they knew he'd be out all night. But the note business really feels like a clue of some sort.

karabou @ March 31 2003, 08:44:51 UTC

You make a lot of good points... eep...

nefeleo @ March 31 2003, 08:46:54 UTC

You may be on to something here. I imagine they got into a heated conversation about Quidditch, as this interaction is the last one I can find between them (though I may not have looked hard enough) and Malfoy may have followed the argument up with a rejected confession of some kind or another.


...I only hope we find out the truth one of these days! The suspense is killing me.

Oh, and you ought to be able to select NrAged as the journal to post in on the update page in 'full' mode.

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 11:04:42 UTC

And we know how much that conversation meant to Draco, by the way he posted it in his memories, as someone pointed out.

Thanks for the advice on posting -- unfortunately I don't get the set of "dropdown options" that the Help page talks about, that would let me choose to post to the community. I'll keep trying to figure it out.

imochan @ March 31 2003, 12:44:52 UTC

Hi! I recently joined and had that problem, too. >_> LJ's been kinda damn freaky lately, so I just gave up and joined nraged again. It seemed to have worked, because now I seem able to post. *shrug* You might try giving that a whirl...

and thanks for the very intestering interpretation of The Night! *_* I hadn't even considered that as an option! *squee*

bookshop @ March 31 2003, 08:53:45 UTC

I think this is a wonderful point. *Generally drools over and dotes upon all your points!*

I haven't seen Draco as being the one rejected, primarily because I'm positive Harry's much much farther along to a conscious realization of what he wants from Draco than Draco is. Draco's attraction to Harry has always struck me as largely subconscious. That's what makes the most recent exchange with Ron so interesting. I really wanted to read in it from a standpoint of Draco pointedly mocking Ron, and defending Harry's position in the process; but his final comments to Ron are blatantly confusing in that regard so I've given up trying to figure out whether Draco in this passage is talking most directly about Harry's friendship with Ron, Ron's friendship with Harry, or Draco's relationship with everybody. He seems to be inadvertently relating to Ron even while trying to mock him, and sounds kind of half-disgusted with himself for it.

And yet, Draco really seems forlorn here,

You know, I think we're too used to being coy about what we read into Draco's posturings. We're always very wink-nod about it without probing too much deeper. Yes, it's posturing, but considering his current position, there's such deep denial involved in his giving up bananas and sounding his barbaric I AM HET from the rooftops of Hogwarts, that he *has* to be going through a lot of self-doubt and self-searching.

I think one thing that's so canonical about potterstinks is that he's so opaque. Part of that is the livejournal forum format and the fact that we're only given what they *say* and not what they think or do; but also, it's because Draco just isn't explaining his personal motivations or feelings to *anybody* for any reason. Sometimes I start to despair and find myself thinking that Potterstinks is as shallow as he tries to be. And then he goes and does something like this. My instinctual reaction, "no, Draco's not feeling misunderstood, those are feelings too deep for him to harbor," is tempered in this case with a, "wah, of course he is, how can he not genuinely *hurt* from all the abuse that gets thrown at him?"

So, blargh. Am back to square one.

To reply to Ana, too, while I'm here:

And just_harry's behaviour is certainly consistent with feeling in a position of power
over Malfoy.

I don't agree *cries* ! Right now he sounds as if he's so miserable and defeated about whatever happened between them. You could just *see* his shoulders slump when he wrote "Sorry your date didn't go well, Malfoy" *bawls* and that, to me, is not the behavior of someone in a position of power. He just seems like he's desperate to cling on to anything Draco will give him, even though Draco's not giving him anything at all at the moment.

WAH. THE ANGST IS KILLING ME. LOUDLY.

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 10:56:46 UTC

I'm positive Harry's much much farther along to a conscious realization of what he wants from Draco than Draco is.

I don't know, I don't see Draco as quite that innocent. Maybe there's been some struggle for clarity in his feelings about Harry, specifically, but as far as his sexual nature goes, Pansy and Co. seem to have had his number for a very long time. Consider Pansy's conmment from last July 29, at the height of her brawl with the Malfoys:

. . . at fifteen, I began to realize that Draco Malfoy only intended to use me as his cover for his closeted affairs and thus I became increasingly depressed. Yet for reputation's sake I tried to persuade myself and others that he was actually interested in a girl such as myself. But recently this became undeniably apparent and my hopes of becoming the next Narcissa Malfoy were shattered. Of course, as a woman cursed with a uterus I could not help but lash out.

It was all merely a result of unfortunate biology, bad timing, and broken ambitions.

I tend to see this the closest we get to a definitive take on Malfoy from inside Slytherin, but maybe I'm being naive or underestimating Pansy's grudge at the time.

we're too used to being coy about what we read into Draco's posturings

I think this is an outstanding point -- it's too easy to think we know what Potterstinks is all about from his surface. And part of the wonderfulness of the character -- as well as of the Slytherin ensemble around him -- is the way his vulnerability, his emotional complexity, the genuine affection and regard his friends have for him -- peeks out very subtly from beneath the whole snarky, comic surface.

But I don't think he's completely deluded about himself, I don't think he's a fool. I think that part of his charming arrogance, his sheer wilfulness, is that he believes he can simply construct a persona that the masses will believe in, or if they don't, who cares what they think, anyway? I can't imagine that the irony of the banana business is lost on him, for instance -- he just refuses to break character and dares Pansy and Millicent to take it too far. Does that make sense? And the "eligible witch" business is perhaps less about fooling anyone, than informing the world at large about the particular fiction they will be required to pay homage to in his presence.

By all means shoot me down if you think I'm off here -- you've been involved with this game and its writers far more deeply than I have. But I offer this as, at least, an alternative to think through in the process of deciding how to read this character.

Right now he [Harry] sounds as if he's so miserable and defeated about whatever happened between them.

Well, he has a lot to feel miserable about -- the rupture with Ron, the objective disaster (whatever its specifics may have been) with Draco, the emotional preoccupation of Sirius and Remus . . . . But defeated? The boy who has the resources to look up five recipes for algae stains, and to post them? Who has the balls to commiserate about Draco's date, signalling a willingness to buy into the fiction?

The same disclaimer applies here as above, I'm really just thinking out loud, trying to deliberately question my own first impressions. But there's some real strength and resilience here in a boy who can stand up to his best friend for Ginny and Cho's sake, who can handle Colin with brutal efficiency, and who in the middle of all this seems cheerful enough about making a new friendship (maybe) with Susan and playing pickup Quidditch and going to Hogsmeade, etc. He's a w00bie, but he's perhaps not a defenseless one.

Anyway, as always it's an absolute blast to debate and speculate with you. It will be fun to see how this actually plays out.

sistermagpie @ March 31 2003, 11:25:35 UTC

I think this is an outstanding point -- it's too easy to think we know what Potterstinks is all about from his surface. And part of the wonderfulness of the character -- as well as of the Slytherin ensemble around him -- is the way his vulnerability, his emotional complexity, the genuine affection and regard his friends have for him -- peeks out very subtly from beneath the whole snarky, comic surface.

Oh, I definitely agree with this. That his friends are able to makes jokes that are that obvious (suggesting chastity belts with a rear guard, sending him bananas) and that he is able to reply so perfectly (demanding melons) without ever looking frankly stupid, does make it seem like there's something complicit going on there. Millicent even referred to Draco's being outstalked when Harry was frantically posting algae antidotes.

But I don't think he's completely deluded about himself, I don't think he's a fool. I think that part of his charming arrogance, his sheer wilfulness, is that he believes he can simply construct a persona that the masses will believe in, or if they don't, who cares what they think, anyway? I can't imagine that the irony of the banana business is lost on him, for instance -- he just refuses to break character and dares Pansy and Millicent to take it too far. Does that make sense? And the "eligible witch" business is perhaps less about fooling anyone, than informing the world at large about the particular fiction they will be required to pay homage to in his presence.

As a kid I would imagine him handing out costumes to everyone and telling them who was going to be pirates and who would be damsels in distress during today's playdate and they learned to go along with him because he really did make up the best games. He definitely seems to know he's performing at all times--he even went so far as to change his userinfo page to fit the part he's playing now. And operation Ignore!Harry started before Harry left the party because Harry is on record telling Ron how strange it is that Malfoy isn't commenting on everything like usual. Obviously once Draco decides to play a new part he's going to play it all the way.

Also, there's the fact that Harry hasn't gotten angry at him for anything he's said about his dates or the girls at the school. No matter how in love Harry is, I don't think it would stop him saying he thought Draco was being awful if he thought so (at one point during their fight he did tell Ron he was acting like Malfoy and it wasn't a compliment). So perhaps Harry is in on the game more than we know, waiting Draco out but harboring a little confidence that he'll come around. If that's the case then Harry may know how to correctly read Malfoy's comments to Ron as an indirect defense of Harry, which is why on this thread--for the first time in days--Harry isn't trying to get Malfoy's attention.

Say what you will about potterstinks, he's the one that started the reconciliation by getting Ron to start seeing things from Harry's pov: "Yeah but- maybe.. actually he didn't fly off- it was because.. wait." Malfoy isn't even interested in talking about Cho and Ginny. He dismisses Cho as riffraff (after all, Harry did want to take her to the ball!) but really he wants to talk about the Trio. I can't believe Harry doesn't see the significance of exactly what response from Ron Malfoy attempted to get and succeeded.

(Loving all this)

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 12:28:57 UTC

I love your observations here. "Complicit" is just the perfect word for the members of the Slytherin Trio. And I think your vision of playmaster!Draco is just absolutely on-target: they learned to go along with him because he really did make up the best games.

You're right, too -- it's fascinating that Harry hasn't commented on Draco's long exchange with Ron. Do you think it's that Harry is just grateful for Draco's re-emergence, and giving him some room to express himself indirectly to Harry? A direct reply from Harry would probably spook Draco back into silence. The more I reread it, the more convinced I am that Harry is Draco's real audience here, and that Draco is explaining himself and his fears in an important way.

The substance of that explanation is still a little puzzling, because the underlying incident is itself still a puzzle. I love your speculation, in your other comment, that it might not have been anything overt at all, just a sudden mutual awareness of a feeling neither was ready to deal with. But Harry's apologies in other posts, and Draco's comments here, seem to me to suggest there was a more explicit confrontation. And I'm not sure in what sense Draco's praise for Ron could be indirect praise for Harry, though I'll try to think about that more.

If, on the other hand, the notion that Harry rejected Draco is correct, then Draco's praise for Ron really is ironic, without being unkind -- it's a pretty effective rebuke to Harry to see, maybe, his own reaction to Draco mirrored in Ron's reaction to Ginny/Cho, and if even Ron's having second thoughts, then maybe Harry will, too. It that's the case, then good for Harry for having the tact just to listen.

sistermagpie @ March 31 2003, 13:41:24 UTC

The more I reread it, the more convinced I am that Harry is Draco's real audience here, and that Draco is explaining himself and his fears in an important way.

It definitely seems that way somehow, although with potterstinks I doubt it can ever be totally straightforward as in, "I'm really talking about YOU here, Harry." He's more likely to be bobbing and weaving with whatever he's saying. Anytime something got too close to the truth I think he'd probably say the opposite just to throw the person off guard.

It does somehow seem like Harry knows he's the audience because not only has he ignored Draco's posts to Ron about being "right" but he ignored Draco's insults to Ginny in his original spherical fruit post. Did he just not feel like he was in any position to challenge Malfoy on his sudden attitudes about women? Because Harry seems to be determinedly ignoring all the noise in potterstinks' posts and focusing in on only certain things like detention with Lupin, Potions assignments, whether or not Prefects Duty is a fun idea for a date...:-)

And I'm not sure in what sense Draco's praise for Ron could be indirect praise for Harry, though I'll try to think about that more.

I don't know whether it's praise for Harry so much as a mocking and manipulating of Ron. Draco's sort of mirroring back everything Ron's said but when it comes out of Draco's mouth Ron suddenly hears how stupid it sounds. Draco doesn't seem entirely serious there because he's agreeing with Ron (something he would probably never do seriously), and yet all this does sound like something potterstinks would say. Which is ironic because Harry told Ron he sounded just like Malfoy during their fight. It's like Draco's using the manipulative power he's always had over Ron in a way that benefits Harry for the first time in his life. And in such a Slytherin way so Ron totally doesn't get what happened. But Harry only benefits.

Anonymous @ March 31 2003, 16:09:45 UTC

Uh, just to point out that darque_pansy shouldn't really be considered Pansy and that it was vindictive but had nothing to do with potterstinks at all. There was a player change so whatever that went on with d_p should prolly be disregarded, l_p is the real Pansy. :D

anamirza @ March 31 2003, 11:05:13 UTC

He just seems like he's desperate to cling on to anything Draco will give him, even though Draco's not giving him anything at all at the moment.

I don't mean, in a position of power as in, he's in complete control of the situation. I mean, if Harry is the one who hurt/rejected Draco, possibly inadvertantly, and actually saw the effect on him, I think he would feel quite bad. And I think if potterstinks felt threatened, he'd run. And he has.

I don't think it's that just_harry feels like he's in control of things in general, either- I think he's felt left out, by pretty much everyone, for quite a while now. His initial argument with Ron seemed almost resigned, which was part of what made it so, so sad. But maybe that will be resolved now that Ron seems to be coming down off his testosterone high and maybe in a position to realize what he's done.

sistermagpie @ March 31 2003, 09:54:58 UTC

Oh, what a good thing to consider!

One thing to remember is that whatever happened might not have been actually spoken aloud. Think of all the slash stories where the two of them get closer by increments (physically) and then they're right up to the line of slash and it's just about taking one more tentative step. So it may not have been about either Draco or Harry literally confessing something, just both of them realizing what he wanted and that the other perhaps wanted it too...?

Like, imagine drunken Harry in Draco's care. They're arguing over Quidditch, Harry's maybe talking about why he left the party. Maybe he even talked about Ron and we're seeing signs of what he said in potterstinks comments here. Being drunk Harry's got license to be leaning on Draco etc. But also being drunk he might happen to look a little too long into his eyes or touch him when he shouldn't. And Draco may have been gobsmacked by his own reaction without even being sure of where Harry was coming from. He might just think Harry was drunk and only his own reactions were inappropriate, so now he's trying to cover them up. Harry, meanwhile, might think the same thing on his side, that he was the one who did something wrong.

That might explain why they're both seeming so lost and yet both trying to cover it up. All Draco's dating and giving up bananas and striking all references to Harry from his lj could be his way of saying, "Remember when it seemed like I was going to kiss you? Well, clearly you were wrong and I wasn't." And Harry, on his part, is maybe doing the same thing. By trying to initiate casual contact he may be trying to make the point that nothing happened that should preclude them having casual conversation.

anamirza @ March 31 2003, 11:08:00 UTC

By trying to initiate casual contact he may be trying to make the point that nothing happened that should preclude them having casual conversation.

That's a good point. "I just meant maybe we could be friends. That's all I was ever trying to say."

lore @ March 31 2003, 10:19:49 UTC Another take

I have a theory...it might be witches. Oh! Wrong fandom. Sorta.

I think Draco is honestly trying to teach Ron something in that exchange...that he's trying to make Ron see that Ron's been an ass and that Ron should value and be considerate of his friends.

If THAT is the case, then it proves that Draco is hurt, but still cares about Harry. Because I'm sure the only reason he would try to reason with Ron is because he knows how unhappy Harry is that Ron and Harry are fighting.

...Which means it was Harry who did the initial rejecting. Draco's still interested in Harry, but his pride has been hurt, so he will help Harry obliquely, but not respond to him directly.

But that's just a theory.

love, lore

anamirza @ March 31 2003, 08:35:18 UTC

So is that Pansy's plan? To make sure no girl at Hogwarts will go out with Malfoy, ever? Does she ship H/D, I wonder?

It does make a certain kind of Pansy-sense. I mean, big scandal and possible disinheritance or at least severe parental disapproval - what better way to make sure Malfoy never outranks her at the Ministry.

Or is that too Ernie-like a theory?

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 08:53:05 UTC

Do you see it as a rivalry situation? Or general bitterness? I don't know, I think she's past all that after last summer's blowup, she seems too good humored and even oddly affectionate toward Draco to be still carrying a grudge. I tend to think Pansy's on to Draco, is amused by the dating charade (and much else about Draco), and would like to sort of kick him in the butt to disabuse him of his own illusions. Which is not entirely an unfriendly act. At the same time, as a good Slytherin, she's not above scoring points off Draco or having fun with the situation for her own sake.

anamirza @ March 31 2003, 10:57:53 UTC

Oh, I'm convinced Pansy and Millicent completely have Draco's number (see banana discussions). I just can't think why she would be interested in helping him discover he's attracted to HP; that seems a little too selfless. But then, Pansy doesn't seem to averse to reaching out to the Gryffindors, though it's hard to tell why she does it. Either it's that she doesn't mind them as much as the other Slytherins, or that she finds them very amusing, or that she just wants to have people like her, or at least, not hate her. (Well, Granger excepted.) She seems to be into manipulation. A lot.

At the same time, as a good Slytherin, she's not above scoring points off Draco or having fun with the situation for her own sake.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.

black_dog @ March 31 2003, 11:23:27 UTC

I just can't think why she would be interested in helping him discover he's attracted to HP.

Well, thinking more about it, it would be just perfect, perfect revenge upon Lucius and Narcissa, and we know there's no love lost there. And it wouldn't be bad for Draco, if that's his fate -- it would probably make him happy, and I think she likes him enough that this would be a positive thing for her. Plus, she would have the last laugh on all his arrogance and posing, without actually hurting him. But most of all, it would just be a hugely entertaining, and scandalous, and disorienting thing to make happen -- and who would miss a chance to be responsible for creating a splash like that? Certainly not Pansy.

anamirza @ March 31 2003, 13:24:46 UTC

Well, thinking more about it, it would be just perfect, perfect revenge upon Lucius and Narcissa, and we know there's no love lost there.

Oh, that's a good point. With Pansy's extremely polite form of snarky, I sometimes forget that.

it would just be a hugely entertaining, and scandalous, and disorienting thing to make happen

True. That does seem to be her style. *hmmm, waits impatiently*