shusu @ May 12 2003, 13:07:51 UTC

Much cooler question. Link here. Am deleting my post previous.

notapipe @ May 12 2003, 14:02:37 UTC Well, we've just gotta break it down, look at the factors before he strikes again, because I for one

[Note: I posted this as it's own thread, but I'm consolidating.]

Personally, I am more and more enamoured with Snape's theory all the time. Look at all the facts it has supporting it:
1) Neville never denied Snape's charge under Veritaserum. Oh, he got all angry, and called Snape mad for suggesting it(madmen can be right, btw), but he never actually denied it. In fact, he incapacitated himself, thus releasing himself from making any successive Veritaserum induced statements. Let's face the facts, if someone wants to deny that they're a Dark Lord, while being compelled to tell the truth, Neville's response to Snape would be a sure-fire winner.
2) Of anyone with the ability to really make there be "something in the water", Longbottom is probably very high up, since next to Snape, he probably has the greatest access to potions ingredients from all his detentions.
3) Neville has been suspiciously quiet for a long time until very recently. This gives him plenty of time for plotting
4) Even if Lavender is spending a lot of time in the bathroom, you would think they would spend a bit more time together, yet they don't. Neville is obviously too busy doing evil.
5) NOBODY expects Dark Lord Neville! His chief weapon is suprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise... His two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... His three weapons...
6) Snape, even if a little paranoid, is not a complete moron. Thus, if his ideas appear completely moronic, there is probably good evidence which makes it appear just very paranoid.
7) Neville DID clean up Snape's lab after the cure for Lupin's problem was found. If he did do anything else, that was the perfect time to cover it up.
8) Snape's lab was full of poisonous fumes, and he left Snape there to inhale them. That is very unsafe. For all he knew, Snape could have been "sleeping" as a result of fume inhalation.
9) Neville has issues. He could be evil.
A) Neville is much less of a wuss and fool than he was before. He is becoming more confident in his dark powers.

notapipe @ May 12 2003, 14:30:19 UTC An Amendment to the case

B) Neville said THIS on Veritaserum (which, you will note, is completely full of questions and no statements on actual issues, just matters of fact known to all). The relevant portion is the question "How could you think for even one stinking moment I would join with the bastards who did that to them?" This doesn't address the fact that Dark Arts != Deatheater. I'm seeing Neville as a crusader for the destruction of the Deatheater type, by force. Kind of like the Punisher. Or Magneto.
C) Neville with a black t-shirt with a skull (frog, preferably) on it a la the Punisher would rock.
D) So would Magneto!Neville

luxuryrevenge @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

notapipe @ May 12 2003, 15:49:07 UTC Re: An Amendment to the case

I was struck by the photoshop bug. I do not think Magneto!Neville looks right.



Note to self: [a href=""] != [img src=""]

xnera @ May 12 2003, 17:18:42 UTC Re: An Amendment to the case

NOBODY expects Dark Lord Neville! His chief weapon is suprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise... His two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... His three weapons...

*snorts water through nose* Oh Merlin, that's funny.

I'm loving this new plot twist. For one thing, it means more posts from wheresmytoad, who I've sorely been missing. But also, like you said, it's something unexpected. Am really interested to see where they go with it.

permetaform @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

Anonymous @ May 12 2003, 21:31:16 UTC Snape and Neville

Cute as the idea of the Dark Lord Neville Longbottom (or whatever aronym he could make out of those letters)...

He was angry because his parents are mad, drooling shells who do not recognize him when he visits and it all the fault of evil, dark magicians. So, maybe, y'know, the idea of *him* being an evil, dark magician isn't so funny and sexy to him, but deeply offensive.

Really, of all the kids, Neville is probably the one that could get the most miliage out of the "my crappy homelife is why I'm so messed up" excuse.

I think Snape is still smarting from the potion mishap, and is very happy to find someone to blame. He likes order and rules and precise cause and effect. So I can easily see him as a guy that likes having something solid to pin the blame onto. (Hogwarts seems troubled and chaotic? He is lonely and depressed? There must be a *force* at work.)

This is a bit of a stretch, but it would help explain why he originally joined the Death Eaters. Muggles were the ultimate convenient scapegoat for what was wrong with the wizarding world (and no doubt, his own personal troubles).

notapipe @ May 12 2003, 22:50:52 UTC Evil Battle Mongol (loose rules)

Frank Castle's wife and kids were murdered by gangsters who used guns and excessive violence as a solution to their problems. This did not make the Punisher forsake guns. Just because Neville doesn't think that it's sexy doesn't mean that he isn't. Don't forget VigilanteDarkMage!Neville.

As for Snape: just because he WANTS a scapegoat doesn't mean he will BELIEVE it. Snape honestly thinks that Neville's evilness is true, with the whole of his being. He can't just be looking for a scapegoat and say "Neville is a Dark Lord", especially since Neville is a fine scapegoat as a bumbling fool. This is deeper than scapegoating.

Anonymous @ May 13 2003, 00:51:30 UTC Re: Evil Battle Mongol (loose rules)

Please, the Punisher? That analogy is a bit of a stretch. Frank Castle was an grown up vet when his family was killed. Neville is young and unbattle-hardened.

Leave us consider a more interesting anology. Batman. His parents were murdered *Right In Front Of His Eyes* and he HATES guns. With a passion. Does not use them.

Not that Neville apporaches the glory that is Batman in any way, but. The Punisher vs Batman? The choice is clear.

As for Snape, the man's mind obviously works at many levels, many of them no doubt containing conflicting thoughts. The spying means he must compartmentalize. And his crazy paranoia probably has often turned out to be true. But sometimes he is just spiteful, and I'm sure deep down he knows his theories are not quite right: remember, this is also a man that instituted the "punish the school for Potter's shoelaces being untied" program.

notapipe @ May 13 2003, 01:49:24 UTC Holy Avenging Angels, Batman!

I stayed away from Batman for the following reasons:
1) Bruce Wayne was a victim of random violent crime. This was not random. This was organized.
2) Batman is DC. This is somehow relevant. Don't ask me to explain.
3) Batman has lots of money. Neville does not have the conviences which Batman does. There is no NevilleCave.
4) Batman does not use guns. This makes my analogy weaker.
5) Neville does not approach the glory that is Batman in any way.
6) Batman is over-used anyway.
7) Batman is all about trauma, he had the trauma of SEEING his parents die. Neville is about a lasting pain. His parents are shells, and they're always around to remind him. Bruce Wayne covers his trauma, then opens it, but it was an event, not a condition. He was deprived of his parents once. Neville has a condition. As he grows, this condition persists, since his parents are constantly there and not there. The young child trauma element is severly distorted in Neville's case.

But even WITH Batman, who has a code of honor so strong he makes Superman look like Bill Clinton, he becomes a vigilante who deals destruction to his foes and has lots of issues.

But let's face it, Neville will never be able to deal with Death Eaters by a few well aimed kicks and an eromenos. If he wants vigilante justice, he has two options: 1) Muggle weaponry. This would be interesting to see, actually. But since he is wizard-born, he probably doesn't know what an M16 is. 2) Dark Arts. The choice is clear.

Snape: If he knew, deep down, that his theories weren't right, why would he state them under Veritaserum? As for his "Isolate Potter" initiative, I do not hear much about Harry failing his classes any more. I'm just saying.

Anonymous @ May 13 2003, 23:57:08 UTC Re: Holy Avenging Angels, Batman!

Some of your points also negate an analogy between the Punisher and Neville as well. Just sayin'

I may have had some other points on the analogy, but basically I just want to say: Batman is just so damn cool.

As for Neville and a desire for vengeance:
Certainly *light* magic is just as powerful as Dark. After all, Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, and Voldemort gets his butt handed to him by the power of love.

And Snape:
He may be utterly convinced at some level that his ideas about Neville are right, but at another he may know they're not. He can think conflicting things. A very complex man. (and if not than he's just crazy paranoid delusional and that would make me sad so I am in denial) He might just be unable to comprehend the sheer incompetence that is Neville and so must assign it intention.

And, although Harry's grades were "dropping in Transfiguration," a year ago (no doubt as this seems to be when his feelings were hitting a turning point) there wasn't really much indication he was in danger of failing classes. "Isolate Potter" came into play almost as a direct result of the sneaking out to the Quidditch match and Snape's general annoyance with Harry not respecting authority.

athene_51 @ May 12 2003, 18:22:26 UTC Evil Neville?

1) Neville never denied Snape's charge under Veritaserum [...] if someone wants to deny that they're a Dark Lord, while being compelled to tell the truth, Neville's response to Snape would be a sure-fire winner.

Well, that's true, but at the same time there were a multitude of posts from other characters going (to paraphrase) "Why am I still typing??". If they were being compelled to type - as in they had no control over it - then why would Neville be any different?

Not that I disagree with you, necessarily. I'm just wondering how Neville would have avoided mentioning it, especially while being forced to tell the truth. I mean, not even purestblood managed to avoid that over in potterstinks's journal, right? Hmmm...

notapipe @ May 13 2003, 00:22:49 UTC Re: Evil Neville?

1) As Snape said, Neville is a powerful Dark Lord, and Neville was never asked a direct question like purestblood. I think that he can deflect his answer, so that even though he was compelled to type and answer truthfully, he avoids the question. Think of it like this: When someone makes a statement (non-question, like Snape), you have a number of responses available to you, since you have a number of reactions to the statement. Now, while some felt compelled to respond, they didn't all answer everything. (That would have been freaky, though) Neville didn't HAVE to respond to Snape's accusations. But, the conniving dark wizard that he is, he would want to eliminate doubt. He can't LIE outright and deny that he deals in that which should not be dealt in, so instead he chooses to respond with the rage that he does, in fact, feel towards Snape. This anger happens to be easily readable by the easily decieved eye as a denial, but you can see that he never actually denies anything.

2) Neville probably WOULD still be forced to type, and eventually to reveal his dark secrets, if he had not incapacitated himself by triggering the classic insane, conflicted and troubled super-villian Freak-Out. (Who here can see Neville saying "I am not a weenie! You are the weenie!" to Snape all Montalbon-style? I can.)

3) A person sufficently trained can learn ways around drugs like sodium pentothol so that they can twist it to their advantage, and that's even WITH direct questions. Neville didn't even have to deal with that. My understanding of Veritaserum is that it's somewhat similar, if much more powerful and magic based. Of course, since it is magical, Neville's super-strong dark arts powers work to prevent it, when he tries. Harry probably could do the same, except he didn't realize that he could apply the same Imperius resistance techniques.

notapipe @ May 12 2003, 16:45:33 UTC

So, assuming that Neville Longbottom is definetly not a Dark Lord in waiting, why is Snape going mad? (Or maybe this whole "Neville is responsible" thing was orchestrated by Neville so that Snape would be diagnosed as insane and kicked out...)

My guess? Neville. Neville created a nervous breakdown by causing Snape's potion to mess up. THEN, after Snape falls asleep of exhaustion from not sleeping for days, the fumes Neville mentions might have added to the insanity.

shusu @ May 12 2003, 19:17:05 UTC I am guessing...

... that NO ONE followed the link provided.

See, I just should have spammed you all instead of consolidating to this post.

(Or been clearer :p )

notapipe @ May 12 2003, 22:52:41 UTC Re: I am guessing...

I followed it. What I don't follow is the link between the link and my comment (which was really just Snape consolidation).

serpensortia @ May 13 2003, 01:15:36 UTC

I for one can't help but notice the timing of this - Sirius and Remus have just got married. Snape has gone insane and by accusing Neville of being evil beyond our imagination, has given him something to take his mind off of this. Snape also wants a kitten. Alot of people when getting over a break up fill the void of their partners by having a pet.

Perhaps Looshie is onto something here? (Or maybe not ^-^;;).