notapipe @ May 30 2003, 21:09:55 UTC

I wonder if Draco inheriting the estate will have any effect on Lucius's threats of disinheriting Draco. He doesn't need to worry about financial ruin if he does something like hang out with Harry. I don't think it will have too much of an effect unless an actual showdown occurs, since the effect of Lucius's disapproval goes far beyond money (I think), but it's an entertaining possibility.

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 00:01:25 UTC

I definitely agree. It gives him serious power in any dispute with Lucius. It doesn't even necessarily have to come to a showdown, because the power conferred by your big guns is based on the way the threat of using them tacitly underlies every conflict, every confrontation. While the Malfoy estate is presuably larger than the Peltier's, Lucius simply no longer has the power to radically affect the material conditions of Draco's life, to prevent him from being rich and comfortable.

He still has some leverage, of course -- the normal emotional leverage that exists in any family. But it's now more about the normal give-and-take between independent, adult family members, and no longer an absolute, one-way dominance by fear. I think all this makes the inheritance a major plot development.

notapipe @ May 31 2003, 01:13:00 UTC

There's another tool at Lucius's disposal (besides familial interactions and the emotional fukkered-upness he's inflicted on Draco), the Malfoy name. Aristocracy isn't all about money or blood, but about names and familial lines. If Lucius disowns him, that's gone. An integral part of Draco's self-image just washed away. It's not even yet. Not by a long shot. Also, he's like 17 or 18 or something, and 3 or 4 years without money would seriously suck for him. He had a hard time with the portion of the 2 weeks he had to endure.

Now I wonder if Lucius's 2 week probation, in conjunction with Draco's new source of wealth, would have helped or hurt Draco's independance and bargaining posistion.

bluekivrin @ May 30 2003, 21:12:24 UTC

I find Draco's...unemotion...unnerving. While he may not have been that attached to his grandmother (though Narcissa does say that her mother paid him more attention then she did her), he treats the body (and thus, the death?) as a scientific interest, not as an event requiring emotion. Some of this may be just the inherent "Draco-ness", but it's nearly frightening.

Or could it be that he is really more affected than he desires to let on (emotional pain, to him, would be a weakness) and so is putting up a remarkable front? After all, Narcissa did say that he's been spending time in the parlour with the body.

Either way, I doubt he will be able to show Narcissa the comfort she needs. The entire family has always been so...proper and dignified to the point of emotional distance. Each one has a large wall built against "emotional weakness", and while Narcissa is more prone then the other two to lower it, none of them seem able to express the kind of outward compassion that is necessary for comfort during grief. A grieving person needs someone who is willing to put aside all personal thought and focus completely on the one grieving, and I cannot see any of the Malfoys being able to do that.

sistermagpie @ May 31 2003, 19:19:47 UTC

I don't know...as I said I would be fascinated in the body as well so I can't really fault him for that. I had two grandparents die in my lifetime and my reaction was pretty unemotional and drawn to the morbid details. I'm not particularly proud of my reaction but I'm not ashamed of it either.

Bu then Draco is actually more emotional than I am and whenever he feels emotion his response is always to post something particularly callous. He may or not be doing that here. I definitely think he's making a point of sounding careless in his post and I doubt he's traumatized by it since this isn't one of his parents. But he did manage to comfort Narcissa when she was crying on him at Harry's (along with saying there was no need to stain his robes he did pat her and murmur reassurance) so I think he's probably doing something for her. I don't think he's able to truly give her everything she needs, of course, but then what kid would be? Especially this one? Still I think he's shown in the past that he does have the rudimentary ability to show concern for Narcissa above anyone else and if she was upset by this I do think he'd try to do something about it.

bluekivrin @ May 31 2003, 23:23:28 UTC Re:

Bu then Draco is actually more emotional than I am and whenever he feels emotion his response is always to post something particularly callous.

Oh, good point. I had forgotten that I have to not take these posts at face value, but consider the person writing them. I agree with you, then, that Draco certainly isn't one to share his emotions with everyone, especially not on some Muggle journal.

And about Draco's ability to comfort...yeah, I suppose. He can show some compassion, to the best of his ability, but I still do think that all of the Malfoys cannot easily express deep, honest emotion. While I could see Draco or Lucius doing a "Do you need anything? Have some tea. *pat pat*"-type reaction to help Narcissa, I don't know if they are able to really give her what she needs. Which makes sense, really, since (as you said) Draco is a kid, and is...Draco.

I feel a bit sorry, then, for Narcissa. I hope she and Remus can get together, since he seems to be the one who would be able to comfort her on a deeper level.

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 09:05:49 UTC

Definitely I think Remus is the way to go here. I don't trust Lucius with his private detectives. Draco's just not emotionally mature enough. The good thing about Remus too is that I think he might be able to even help Narcissa understand her own feelings which is hard for her, having been brought up to only acknowledge a few "acceptable" emotions. Draco's probably also the wrong person for this because the issue of parental disapproval and disinterest is still very close to his heart with Lucius. He doesn't seem ready to deal with that much.

bluekivrin @ June 1 2003, 17:35:34 UTC Re:

Yes, exactly. Remus is just good, all around, for emotional support and kindness. *loves Remus*

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 00:21:53 UTC

I hope he's comforting her, too, but it may be too much at this point to ask him to show real competence in dealing with another person's grief. He's dealing with his own issues about it, too. I do think it's encouraging that he was able to physically comfort Narcissa when she broke down at Dogear -- pats on her shoulder, etc. I hope he can do some of the same, here.

It's interesting that Narcissa becomes more attractive and sympathetic as a character, the more we can see her for her own sake, and not just in terms of whether she's there for Draco. When we think about her in her "mother" role, I think there's a tendency to feel hostile to her because she's so incompetent at that.

In a way, I think the reader's response to her character may also mirror Draco's response to her -- as long as he's dependent on her emotionally, he's going to be obsessed with her shortcomings as a mother and hate her for them. To the extent that he can stand on his own, he can start seeing her as a real person, with her own tragedies, and feel sympathy and maybe even draw some lessons for his own life. I think the inheritance matters here, not just in material terms. Draco can begin to imagine a life materially independent from his parents, which makes them less terrifying as controllers of his fate, and gives him some room to just see them as people.

And of course, what he can learn from Narcissa is directly relevant to his own issues. He can see how devastating emotional coldness can be, how it perpetuates itself across generations. He gets some perspective on his own anxiety about whether his parents love him -- I wonder if this applies even more to his relationship to Lucius than to Narcissa. All of this helps him stand back a little bit from his own issues, may make him a little less "impossible" and resistant to self-examination. And it may make him take offers of emotional intimacy (i.e. from Harry) more seriously than he had.

And finally, a brush with death makes anybody think about sex. So if I were Harry, I wouldn't give away those Seamus-pants yet . . .

notapipe @ May 31 2003, 01:16:00 UTC

Just one thing I want to note: I'm pretty certian my mom still doesn't think of her mom as a person (possibly because she is a harpy), and there's no financial dependency there. With parents like Draco's, I think he'll have a hard time seeing them as people any time soon (though I think he'd see Narcissa as a person sooner).

bluekivrin @ May 31 2003, 01:54:16 UTC wondering

Can we really say, though, that financial independence equates emotional independence?

Does the proverbial "leaving home" cause children to look at their parents in a completely different light? *is curious*

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 04:05:15 UTC Re: wondering

It's not cause-and-effect in any rigid way, but I'm just appealing to common observation -- you gradually get a more independent take on your parents as you gradually establish your own independence, come to terms with yourself as a competent person with resources and achievements and goals of your own. Each step that lets you see yourself as your own agent brings you closer to being able to relate to your parents as fellow-adults.

I think obviously this plays out to a different extent in different families. The big, big issue here I think has to do with parental flaws and shortcomings -- if you've been strongly marked by those flaws and shortcomings, I think it's very hard to relate to those things without resentment, without neurosis, until you have established some security in your own life that parents can't shake. That freedom lets you relate to parents in a way that's less about you, more capable of seeing them whole on their own terms. My .02 anyway.

And yes, I do believe material independence makes a big difference emotionally, because it's a tangible thing that means the course of your life is in your own hands -- very different from the experience of dependence on parental support and funding.

I'm not saying the inheritance is going to make all this happen at one swoop for Draco; I do think, though, that it's a significant first step. Up to now, everything he is, everything he can be, is a reflection of his parents -- and I think his extreme emotional dependence, which he has only recently started to break free from, has to be entangled with the fact that as far into the future as he looks, his social and material position as an adult are also going to be determined by what he "inherits" from his parents. Now, for the first time, he's finding other sources of support, emotional and material, that have nothing to do with his parents. It has to make the whole world feel like a different place. And it makes his parents people he can begin stand apart from, and judge and even forgive, instead of people who completely overwhelm his sense of himself.

One step at a time, yeah, but the first step changes everything.

notapipe @ May 31 2003, 04:12:56 UTC Re: wondering

Wow. That's so thoughtful, uplifting and hopeful, I think I hate it. Not that your analysis or bad or anything. The opposite. It's a compliment.

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 04:24:10 UTC Re: wondering

Well, thanks TBWGUEN! ;)

notapipe @ May 31 2003, 04:46:11 UTC Re: wondering

Um, what? TBWGUEN?

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 05:37:32 UTC Re: wondering

The Boy Who Gave Us Evil Neville.

sistermagpie @ May 31 2003, 19:32:22 UTC

It's interesting that Narcissa becomes more attractive and sympathetic as a character, the more we can see her for her own sake, and not just in terms of whether she's there for Draco.

Oh definitely. One thing I always tried to make clear in my reactions to Narcissa--and I know I didn't often get this across!--is that my reactions to her as a mother and as a person are two totally different things. It's clear that she hasn't been given the resources to be as "good" as many others, much the way ps hasn't. Since ps is the child she's the most responsible for their relationship but in the same way Narcissa's mother is responsible for the suffering in their's.

That ps has been so difficult is actually a good thing. I think the fact that they had their reconciliation before this happened is probably the best thing about this. Remember Narcissa said that they actually talked for a long time, he hugged her, patted her shoulder and murmured words of reassurance. Most importantly he let her know how he was feeling honestly and she was able to talk to him in return. Now, ps is still a self-centered little thing so I don't think this turned him into super-grief counselor who's going to say and do all the right things for Narcissa. But I don't see any reason to believe that this situation wouldn't bring out the best qualities of ps, such as they are. The protectiveness he sometimes shows with Harry, the impulse to draw him out of a bad mood. Remember that Ron also tends to be insensitive in these kinds of situations but his impulses are usually loving and that shows through. I suspect it would with Draco as well.

As fascinating as ps might find it scientifically to look at a dead body, I really don't think he was just examining the corpse. Let's remember how super sensitive this kid to everything, not to mention all the things he's afraid of. Would death really not terrify him? This kid who's always running away from things with the excuse that he "could have DIED?" This is the first dead body he's ever seen. I wouldn't be surprised if one reason he was always with the corpse is that he had to psych himself up to get close to it...and those coins over the eyes might have scared the bejesus out of him and that's why he angrily mentions them.

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 20:08:44 UTC Re:

As fascinating as ps might find it scientifically to look at a dead body, I really don't think he was just examining the corpse.

Oh I agree completely. I think all kinds of confused ideas are bouncing through his head, and I agree with your earlier post about him being "your kind of boy."

When I was about PS' age, I went with my father to the apartment of an aunt who had suddenly died -- a neighbor had called frantically, and it was dad's job to be on the spot, hold down the fort, as the police came, the paperwork was filled out, the body was removed, etc etc. My aunt was lying curled up on the floor in the hall, looking very small and strange. It was the oddest experience in the world, and I felt giddy, guilty, frightened, shy, fascinated. There was nothing rational about my reactions. And so I take nothing about PS' behavior here at face value, I don't judge him at all. He probably feels totally disoriented. The more enduring emotions will emerge later, I think.

But the sunburn thing is an almost endearing indicator of his awe and fear at the idea of death -- the sun burned him, it turned his delicate skin red -- imagine his horror at a nature that could turn that skin cold, could make it rot. The very idea makes you want to curl up with someone while you can.

I don't see any reason to believe that this situation wouldn't bring out the best qualities of ps, such as they are.

I liked your reminder that they had talked at Dogear, that he had comforted Narcissa verbally as well, and that he had had time to talk about why he was upset with her. I think this is all new for him, and I frankly hadn't seen much protectiveness in his behavior toward Harry, but it is certainly a sign that he is breaking out of his own self-absorbtion, and I agree that he probably understands how much Narcissa needs him right now, and is likely to be drawn out over it, to respond as much as he can. That's yet another role reversal for someone who has always been demanding reassurance and gratification for himself, so it's a big step forward for him.

I can't resist adding a remark about PS' exchange with Harry, although that's a matter for another thread probably. I think Harry's rough and slightly teasing concern, and the directness and friendliness of PS' reply, were just wonderful. Especially since is the first we've seen them dealing with each other since the big three-cornered fight with Ron. These two are going to be OK, I think.

sistermagpie @ May 31 2003, 21:00:59 UTC

I frankly hadn't seen much protectiveness in his behavior toward Harry,

I was just referring to that time way back when (pre-outing) when Ron was still angry at Harry for playing gulf with Draco and Draco told Ron to lay off, that Harry just had already made plans with him. It wasn't that he did some huge, wonderful thing, it just showed an impulse to jump in on Harry's behalf in a way that wasn't entirely self-centered. (He didn't gloat that Harry didn't want to spend time with Ron or really fan the flames between Ron and Harry as much as he could have.) He also stepped in and disbanded Colin's meeting--again, hardly a huge defense of Harry but I thought it did take care of things pretty well. When somebody suddenly seems upset he does tend to notice it, even if he doesn't know how to deal with it. Sometimes he uses his "awry" icon.

I think Draco likes times when Narcissa "needs him" like this. He has a pretty long history of going to her when she was upset. I think Narcissa really does get comfort from Draco just being there because he's her son. Like I remember her being upset about something (something probably superficial) once and him saying, "Shall I come to your room tonight?"

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 21:20:20 UTC Re:

Actually, on the subject of protectiveness -- I'm looking at the latest MB/PS thread. Is PS getting a little aloof and huffy when MB makes fun of Harry?

sistermagpie @ May 31 2003, 22:04:02 UTC

Not to mention that he reversed a charm intended for Harry, yes? That would make Harry happy...I'm wondering about TBWL's headquarters. Is that the crack in the wall? (I'd think that was Draco's headquarters.)

notapipe @ May 31 2003, 01:04:01 UTC

Yes, he always did have inheritance in his interests.

Anonymous @ May 31 2003, 16:57:25 UTC

It might just be over-analising, but I'm quite interested in Harry's comment(http://www.livejournal.com/users/potterstinks/20863.html?thread=392575#t392575) on Draco's most recent post.
Specifically the last sentence. Something about the way it's put makes me think it's implying something.

sistermagpie @ May 31 2003, 19:22:27 UTC

LOL! Oh behave!;-)

Anonymous @ May 31 2003, 19:54:27 UTC Eep

I actually meant his "It makes it not hurt so much." sentence could be implying something about Draco's true feelings towards his grandmother's death, and this being a way for j_h to offer condolences as he does to Narcissa and not to Draco.
That makes no sense, but I'm far to embarrassed to make sense. That'll teach me to be vague.

sistermagpie @ May 31 2003, 20:21:46 UTC

Oh...so it's actually my mind that's in the gutter. How embarassing! ;-)

Anonymous @ May 31 2003, 22:12:41 UTC

It was an honest misunderstanding. I wasn't very clear.

black_dog @ May 31 2003, 20:14:05 UTC

Over "analising," eh? Aloe-as-lube? I love the idea. I wish it were true.

Anonymous @ May 31 2003, 19:28:32 UTC Narcissa's response to Harry

Does anyone else think it's a good thing that Narcissa responds so favorably to Harry's sympathy comment? In my opinion, it shows that the debacle proceeding from Ron's overanalyzation and conclusion-jumping has not alienated Harry and Narcissa.