zorb @ June 1 2003, 09:55:04 UTC

Percy seems to categorically avoid saying anything linking a gender designation and the word friend, as evidenced by his continual references to Penelope as simply his "friend." It makes a huge difference here, I agree, and I, too, wonder if the communication breakdown was with Ron or just Percy.

I also enjoyed his use of "kerfluffle."

Anonymous @ June 1 2003, 10:29:58 UTC

I really don't think Draco's making any attempts to accept Ron's friendship. He screamed "DIE" at him repeatedly and then screamed for Seamus to take him away. Then he very seriously threatened to kill him.

Percy, I think, is entirely oblivious to homosexuality. During the whole Cho debacle he jumped in with, "Did I miss something?" I doubt he even realised that the point had anything to do with a romantic relationship. If he did, I think Percy's very formal about these things. He insists that Penelope is his "friend from the Ministry", so I think he may find it in bad taste to discuss such things in public.

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 11:52:33 UTC

He screamed die at him when Ron said something to anger him, though. And he certainly didn't seriously threaten to kill him meaning he would really do it. Ron made him seriously angry by implying he and Harry were going out and Draco made it clear he was angry--though there his primary accusations were for Harry.

I still don't think that, for ps, this indicates he's rejecting friendship outright. He and Ron have a lot of problems but I don't see it the way Percy is describing it at all, with Ron trying to be Draco's friend and Draco smacking him down. Draco responds to what Ron says with his honest reactions. For instance, when Ron suggests wearing red and green together Draco is horrified and says so.

As others like Seamus have noted, Ron's attempts at friendship are almost always things that might as well be calculated to antagonize Draco so it's understandable they never end well. But this, imo, is a personality clash rather than Ron being nice and Draco rejecting him for no reason. Obviously Draco's not averse to any new friendships through Harry--he's fine with Seamus. Ron and Draco have a long history of not getting along and the reasons come from both sides. I think they still are.

If Percy is truly that clueless about the homosexuality factor here than he really doesn't know what's going on. I mean, he may find it in bad taste to discuss such things in public but you can't talk about this kerfuffle without doing that. After all, remember Ron's original reaction to Draco's outing post? He furiously defending Harry against being gay and told Draco to stop telling lies like that. So he can hardly not understand Draco having the exact same reaction here, I'd think.

black_dog @ June 1 2003, 10:56:52 UTC

Percy is giving heartfelt and sincere advice -- for a parallel world where everything is much simpler and straightforward and there are no shadows and no one is slave to their emotions. It makes him a fool, but an oddly likeable and attractive one, I think.

For all his unworldliness and obliviousness, he does make some good points and offer some good advice -- he just seem to have no idea how hard it would be to follow that advice given the way people's feelings are all tangled up.

Percy seems clueless about motivations. His basic assumptions are that Ron's intentions were pure, that the "disclosure" was an accident and partly Harry's fault for not clueing Ron in, and that Draco is overly sensitive. All of these are doubtful, I think. And yet by seeing only the positive things, he really does point the way to some of the social lies that might smooth things over, and lay the basis for some forgiveness for Ron: First, that Harry should see that everything Ron did was rooted in his love for Harry, even though we know this curdled into a sort of spitefulness because of Ron's sense of being cut out; and second, that Draco should appreciate the public effort Ron made to be civil to him, even if the whole subtext here was about whether Ron or Draco were in a power position.

I wonder if Percy is oblivious to the whole homosexual issue (with his use of the word "friend") or just finds sexuality too messy and inclined to lead to bad behavior -- so that his solution is to pretend, and to believe people should act as if, nothing unusual or emotionally wrenching were happening. This may not be a bad rule to keep in mind, if it's humanly possible to follow it, in order to keep situations like this one from getting out of hand. Percy is essentially correct, I think, in his assumption that no one has behaved well here.

I think my favorite Percy phrase comes when he describes Ron's overtures to Draco -- "while his efforts may have been odd . . . " Perhaps there is some hope for Percy after all!

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 12:24:12 UTC

I think Percy's basic points are correct too but I also wonder what Harry's real reaction was to what Ron did. In the thread in Seamus' journal when Ron put his foot in it Harry wasn't so much angry at Ron as distressed. He just kept saying, "Delete the comment! Stop saying he's my boyfriend! He's not!" Draco was angry at Ron, sure, but then, what boy probably wouldn't respond to something like that with, "I'm going to kill you?"

I'm not convinced, however, that Ron's feeling that Harry and Draco are going to kill him(for telling everyone about their relationship, apparently) are accurate. Harry was obviously angry at Ron because he asked not to sit next to him. But it just doesn't sound like j_h to be that angry with Ron just because he accidentally made Draco angry. This is j_h who continued to reach out to Ron when Ron was being unfairly mean to him a while back, remember. Harry is generally very willing to make allowances for people when their intentions are loving, especially towards him. I can't imagine him saying to Ron, "I'm not speaking to you because you set me back to square one with Malfoy and I'm trying to get him to go out with me" of "because you told everybody I've been seeing Malfoy at night." Harry's not been very discreet about that at all; Draco mentioned seeing Harry at night once in his journal.

It seems to me that Harry must have had some words with Ron after this fiasco and had some kind of continuing problem with Ron's attitude to be angry at him. In class Neville tells us that Ron was placing himself between Harry and Malfoy to make sure they couldn't catch each other's eye. That doesn't sound like Ron is being too supportive of their relationship. (I don't think he's got good reason to believe this is just self-defense against their killing him either.)

I can't help but wonder too if there's some issues here about homosexuality. Seamus is understandably angry at Ron's butting into his relationship with Dean and especially (to me this seems the most significant thing) at the way Ron insists on claiming that Seamus was monopolizing Malfoy's time. As Seamus says, Ron himself tried to talk to Malfoy because he was Harry's friend--Seamus was just more successful because he chose a common interest. (And Ron and Draco did in fact have a fine conversation about Quidditch elsewhere where they argued over their different teams so Seamus is absolutely right there.) Percy, as Seamus tells him, leaves out the whole soap opera scenario Ron concocted that turned Seamus into a seducer trying to steal Harry's boyfriend. Ron sees sex everywhere!

So I really wonder if Ron was perhaps suspicious of Seamus' time with Draco because Seamus is gay. Ron has always proudly said that he accepted that Harry wants Draco as a boyfriend but he may not have dealt with Harry liking Draco as a person. It's like Hermione said--she imagines Harry is attracted to Draco for vague reasons having to do with his looks and Quidditch. Ron may feel he's being accepting of Harry's odd homosexual urges for the blonde, handsome Malfoy and made Harry angry by seeing it in those terms. Percy does seem to take Ron's view that Ron's view of Harry and Malfoy is correct despite not just oversensitive Malfoy but Harry himself saying there was nothing going on between them. I would imagine that would make Harry just as angry as Draco for different reasons. Ron may be seeing Harry's relationship with Malfoy as being driven by hormones he can't control, implying that as a gay boy Harry's acting on purely sexual urges and nothing more. After all the time they've spent together I think Harry might be offended on hearing his friendship with Draco characterized that way, not to mention he might dislike the picture it painted of him as somebody only spending time with Draco for possible sex. Also, Harry and Seamus may be offended by this view of how homosexuals work. Just some thoughts. Could be wrong!

black_dog @ June 1 2003, 13:16:52 UTC Re:

I think part of the problem, and one that's too easily taken for granted and glossed over, is that an intense and deadly serious rivalry has developed between Ron and Draco, over who comes first in Harry's emotions.

I don't think Ron is just blundering around, I think he's poking and attempting power plays that work on Draco's insecurities and drive him wild. And I think Draco is not above doing the same thing to Ron -- I have started to wonder how much of his outburst over Ron's "indiscretion" was an exaggerated and deliberate attempt to divide Harry and Ron, and how much of last night's chatfest was actually motivated by Draco's desire to vaunt his relationship with Harry in Ron's face. PS makes a number of allusions to how Ron "envies" him, and seems unusually self assured and even maliciously playful when he confronts Ron on Hermione's thread. "Some of them are rusty."

Harry of course is in the middle, and may frankly feel that Ron is going out of his way to create difficulties on an ongoing basis.

I hate quoting ex cathedra evidence -- and I don't remember if you were in the NA chat -- but one of the most interesting things Draco's player revealed was that Draco was jealous of Ron, and never quite took the "Gulf" friendship seriously because he assumed Harry would run back to Ron as soon as they made up. (I really hope they post that chat soon!)

I think that same dynamic continues to play out. Draco has felt very insecure about competing with Ron, and Ron works that insecurity, consciously or not. Looking at the fight between Draco and Ron the afternoon before the "indiscretion" thread, what sets Draco off is Ron's offhand observation that "Harry says you're odd." It's a power play -- a deliberate reminder that Harry and Ron "talk about" Draco, and that Ron is privy to, and in a sort of superior role with regard to, anything that happens between H and D. Which is false, but Draco doesn't know that. I think he's only beginning to believe, thanks to recent events, that he may have the upper hand against Ron, and may now be tempted to overplay it, leading to another cycle of problems.

With regard to the "indiscretion" thread, I can see Draco making secrecy about their late night visits a kind of test of loyalty for Harry. And Harry, honorably, doesn't tell Ron. But during the big fight, Draco concludes that he has done so anyway. He was worried, and ready to believe, that he comes in second place to Ron.

And Ron, I suspect, doesn't know what the hell to think. I don't take this business about "protecting" Harry from Seamus' interest in Draco at face value at all -- I think that's particularly lame, even for Ron. I see his interference in Seamus and Dean's relationship, his testing limits there, as obsessive curiosity, all about trying to learn how the bond between gay boyfriends compares and contrasts to the bond between nonsexual male "best friends." He's feeling hugely threatened, and constantly driven to one-up Draco as a result, which in turn sets Draco off.

It's not going to be an easy dynamic to shut down, and I can see Harry getting kind of fed up with it, as much as he cares for Ron. Because he's forced to either confide in Ron and have his trust abused so that Ron can score off Draco, or keep secrets from Ron, which will cause hurt and grief too.

So I think Harry is angry at Ron for more than just a dumb incident, angry in a more durable way, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was ferocious with Ron after the "indiscretion," and quite cold to him for a while. Ron obviously felt devastated enough by Harry's reaction to run away from school.

I don't want to paint Ron as a simple manipulator here -- to some extent he's the victim of his emotions and can't help himself. I loved the way he tried to apologize, and backed off, when Draco threatened him on the Hermione thread, and the way he tried to imitate Harry ("Delete this post!") on the Justin thread. But Harry's dilemma is that it's not enough to understand and forgive. He's got to also find a practical way to contain Ron as a dangerous loose cannon, and I'm not sure if he has any idea how to do that. It's a tough problem.

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 14:27:20 UTC

Yes! I wasn't in the NA chat but I have always thought that ps was very clearly jealous of Ron and why wouldn't he be? Especially during the gulf-playing days ps must have been incredibly confused and frankly suspicious of Harry's sudden interest in him. I think he knows, at heart, that he's never been as good a friend to Harry as Ron has been (of course!) and probably doubts he ever could be, as Ron does have certainly personality traits that he lacks. That came out again when he accused Harry of calling him unreliable and he said if that's what he wanted he could go back to Weasley. And Ron stepped in and said Draco he shouldn't be angry at *Harry* for things he dislikes about Ron on more than one thread. That sets things up a Ron and Harry vs. Draco dynamic too. Draco can't fight with Harry without Ron waiting to stand at Harry's side.

I definitely don't see this as ps being all innocent here--his sensitivity and fear over Harry's rejecting him again tends to focus on Ron for obvious reasons. But I think Harry's ready for that, knowing his their history and how he and ps have hurt each other over the years.

But Ron may be more of a problem than Harry expected. Ever since Harry confessed his interest in ps Ron has used it to reassert himself as Harry's best friend. M.B. nailed it in her picture of the three of them going to class with Ron saying, "Look ma, I'm TBWL's best friend." All his aggressive attempts to assert himself into the situation probably come through loud and clear to Draco: Ron and Harry come as a pair. If Harry is together with ps now it's because Ron is supportive of it and "in on it." Even when Harry sneaks out at night Ron helps by making Harry-shaped pillows.

I thought it was interesting that you mentioned Percy saying, essentially, that this was partially Harry's fault for not "clueing Ron in" because in fact Ron was clued in. He didn't know Draco and Harry weren't dating...but everyone else did. Harry seemed to think Ron had been clued in on this. When Draco insisted that Potter "told" Ron he was referring to Harry telling Ron that he and Draco were romantically involved so I'm not sure if Ron's knowing about the nighttime visits was the main reason he was angry. Surely if Draco was trying to make Ron jealous he'd want Ron to know he and Harry were spending time together?

Note that in M.B.'s thread when she says Ron (presumably) is jealous Draco says, "Hmm." I think that may have been the first time it occurred to him this was possible and that may be what's behind his giddyiness in the thread after that. He does sound like he's having fun teasing Ron about his grandmother's weapons. But still, Draco doesn't spend all that much time taunting Ron at all. Not because he's the more mature person at all, but just because I think he's still desperately insecure about Ron and Harry's relationship and knows he can't press his luck with Ron. This may have been another reason he loved the M.B. thread so much--for once it was Harry who was the outsider with him and M.B.

Ron's running away from school...that's pretty dramatic. But he goes to Percy and appears to give him a rather biased view of events that results in Percy scolding Harry for his treatment of Ron and insulting Draco. Percy also refers to Ron trying to fit in with Harry's "new friends" by learning about colour. But who are Harry's new friends? Dean wasn't into the fashion thing. That leaves Seamus and Draco who bond themselves, just the two of them. Then later it's *Seamus* who goes shopping with Harry in Hogsmeade, not Draco. Draco, in fact, agrees with Ron that Harry didn't need new clothes! So to me this sounds a lot more like the other thing you mentioned, that Ron is testing the boundaries of friendship between a gay person and a straight one. I think we may be wrong to assume that it's only Draco is threatened by. He may also be worried that he's going to lose Harry to Seamus because Seamus is gay and so they have that in common.

Anonymous @ June 1 2003, 15:05:34 UTC

I'm just addressing one point here, and that's all, because some of the information is truly misleading.

Harry didn't see Ron after Seamus' post. Ron ran off that night to see Percy, and Harry was, as you have learned, locked in a room with Draco. Before Seamus' post, Harry and Ron were getting along fine. So when you are analyzing the bits about Harry trying to avoid Ron, it is best if you chalk that up to a misunderstanding on Neville's part, because the behavior that Neville is interpreting happened before Seamus posted.

Anyway, Neville has had a lot on his mind lately.

notapipe @ June 1 2003, 17:10:59 UTC

Like Evil.

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 18:50:42 UTC

Good to know--thanks!

Aw, poor Ron. And it's really sweet he ran to see Percy. Definitely the best brother to go to in this kind of situation, it turns out. (I'm glad Percy doesn't seem to have given him a lecture or anything but instead let him win at literati.)

Anonymous @ June 1 2003, 15:38:15 UTC

Note that in M.B.'s thread when she says Ron (presumably) is jealous Draco says, "Hmm." I think that may have been the first time it occurred to him this was possible and that may be what's behind his giddyiness in the thread after that.

She wasn't referring to Ron! The Slytherins assume a lot of people are jealous of them anyway, it was just them sitting around being Slytherins.

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 21:18:25 UTC

Heh!

I guess I always associate assuming a lot of people were jealous of them with Gryffindors--but I suppose Slytherins would do that as well. :-)

Anonymous @ June 2 2003, 00:26:04 UTC

(I really hope they post that chat soon!)

We had some trouble with logging it, and only have bits and pieces. We're hoping someone from nraged has it, but it doesn't seem entirely likely. We'll probably have to write out the questions and rewrite the answers, which some of us are groaning about.

sheron @ June 1 2003, 23:00:07 UTC

It's like Hermione said--she imagines Harry is attracted to Draco for vague reasons having to do with his looks and Quidditch.

She really says that? I must have missed that comment because I've been wondering for the longest time why Hermione doesn't say anything on the topic. (Aside from being busy studying). Can you please point me in the direction of where (when) she comments on their relationship?

orphne @ June 1 2003, 23:21:52 UTC

I believe that she says that during the Veritaserum fiasco...in this thread.

Anonymous @ June 2 2003, 00:50:24 UTC

Hey, where did you get your icon? Is there a Make Your Own Daria Character thing somewhere or something?

orphne @ June 2 2003, 00:54:32 UTC Re:

Oh, no--I made it in Photoshop. :)

Anonymous @ June 2 2003, 00:55:22 UTC

Thank you, that was driving me nuts.

sheron @ June 3 2003, 17:52:02 UTC Re:

Thanks! It had slipped my mind. :)

Anonymous @ June 1 2003, 15:49:36 UTC

Of course I think Ron gave Percy a biased view of things (but of course! everyone has a biased view that they see as "the truth").

But one thing I am happy to see--I suppose in the interests of game balance--is a person sticking up for Ron and telling Harry and Draco that their behavior is a bit off. So few people have actually taken issue with something Harry does in a way that doesn't seem petty or cruel or misguided. And Percy... I adore him. He really loves him family (even as he thinks they ignore him *wah*). And I think he did undercut his usual seriousness with some sly references here (the janitorial positions and tarantula).

Yes, everyone has behaved not-so-well here, but I think in our H/D love we tend to forgive them more if it means that they seem to be getting closer. I'm not saying Ron is blameless and pure, and yes, he's often been oblivious to Harry's emotional state, but perhaps Harry should have a bit more consideration for his childhood friend who's been loyally through life-threatening situations with him?

Maybe I'm just feeling depressed because it seems that just_harry is growing away from his childhood friends. Growing into someone who has more in common with potterstinks and seamus that his old cronies Ron and Hermione. I *liked* that person. Or the image I have in my mind of 4th year canon!Harry. He was someone who was instantly turned off by people insulting those who'd been kind to him (and for all that I worship M.B., let us not forget she tosses around the word Mudblood a lot).

And the person that just_harry's revealing himself to be, or maturing into (it's hard to really pin down as he doesn't post much and is such a cipher) seems to me to be stronger and colder than I was expecting. Which is fascinating and well-done, but rather deflatingly depressing for me somehow. Bah. I am weak. *is further broken by N_A*

altricial @ June 1 2003, 16:10:12 UTC

Hm, I don't really think Harry is growing away from his old croonies. It seems to be that he's more overwhelmed by the sudden attention from Slytherins, especially when it is not bad attention, so he's simply reacting without thinking much of it. He's still a Gryffindor after all. Also he seems to be very passive about going shopping for clothes, etc. The only time you see him actively seeking out someone to do something with, other than Draco, is Ron. I think the boy's still okay. :D

Would you like a LJ code?

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 18:29:32 UTC

Altricial said this but I agree--I don't think Harry is really growing away from Ron. Especially now that we know Ron did't see Harry after the thread with Neville etc. because I honestly didn't think Harry was angry at Ron personally on that thread. He was upset at what Ron did but I didn't get the impression that Harry was accusing Ron of intentionally hurting him or anything like that. He was more just exasperated at Ron's cluelessness because he told Ron exactly what was wrong and Ron kept saying, "What? Why are we yelling? What post am I deleting?" I don't see Harry doing much more than spending time with Draco on whom he has a crush. What kind of consideration should he show to Ron on that point? Seamus, ironically, thought that Ron was ignoring Harry. So it's probably complicated. I mean, Percy tells Harry he shouldn't be accusing Ron of things and then questions why he's as friendly as ever with Malfoy. If Harry and Ron didn't speak after the thread what is Percy even talking about? Harry didn't accuse Ron of anything he just told him to stop saying Draco was his boyfriend because he wasn't. And why should Harry be angry at Malfoy? Yes, he threw a tantrum but his reaction wasn't all that different than Ron's reaction when Malfoy first claimed Harry tried to kiss him: How dare you make up lies like that?

I can completely understand Ron feeling upset after that thread and I'm sympathetic to him. But I think the situation is painful in itself whichever way Harry plays it. I honestly don't see Harry saying anything to Ron on that thread that really makes it seem like Harry's going to kill him. I can understand why Ron would see it that way but I personally never read anything in that thread and thought that Harry must hate Ron now. If I thought Harry did feel that way I'd think Harry was wrong. We should also remember that Ron did sort of grow away from Harry for a while there when he was with Hermione, something that Harry eventually brought up to him so there's probabaly a little history there on Harry's part as well.

So basically I think Harry and Ron will definitely get through this and that they both still value their friendship but there's probably nothing Harry can do that will make this transition completely smooth. I'm not saying Harry's got no responsibility here--he should of course consider Ron's feelings. But I think a lot of Ron's most upsetting feelings come from the situation itself and not just Harry treating him differently. I am glad he's got family to go to, though. Ron isn't a bad guy here and I don't think he should feel like one. I don't want him to feel left out or unwanted either but that doesn't change that he made a mistake and posted things that were untrue and embarassed Harry. That's all it seemed like Harry was reacting to there.

black_dog @ June 1 2003, 19:17:54 UTC

There's an interesting tidbit in Percy's latest reply to Seamus, where he says that Ron "felt like he was less of a friend for not knowing fashion." I don't think I'd really imagined the extent to which Ron sees Seamus, Harry and Draco all implicitly bonding over clothing, and himself being left out. I wonder in retrospect if he wasn't clinging to Dean as a fellow outsider, afraid they'd all gang up against him.

Uh oh, now Ron's getting upset at Seamus. (Same thread.)

However, this is a sleepy post and I shall not run with this or try to integrate it into other arguments right now. :)

sistermagpie @ June 1 2003, 19:35:44 UTC

his reaction wasn't all that different than Ron's reaction when Malfoy first claimed Harry tried to kiss him: How dare you make up lies like that?

Thought I should clarify because this isn't strictly true. Draco's reaction was actually to accuse Harry of telling Ron the two of them were dating. Ron's obvious honesty in that thread made Draco suspect Harry. That too, though, is something I would think Harry could easily forgive Draco for, knowing the circumstances. If Draco was willing to listen to Harry's explanation why wouldn't Harry leave this in the past? (God knows it would have been much harder getting past the outing incident.)

Percy's follow-ups to his post just make it more clear that this isn't about Harry as much as Ron's own insecurity. Percy says Ron felt like less of a friend because he didn't know about fashion...yet Harry himself had nothing to do with the fashion discussion or the paper dolls. In fact Harry was a source of frustration for Seamus and Draco for his bad fashion sense.

So maybe Ron felt like he'd be left behind if he couldn't bond with Draco as Seamus had done but that's all about Ron's own ideas and not anything Harry has ever demanded of him as far as we know. I'm interested to see exactly how Harry responds to Percy's post. I think he'll be quick to assure Ron that he's the best friend he's ever had and he should never feel otherwise...but I would think he'd also be annoyed at Percy, who wasn't there, chastizing him as if he was wrong to react the way he did to Ron's posts in that thread. Just as I think Seamus has good reason to be annoyed at Percy's repeating that Seamus was spending a lot of time with Malfoy. Neither Seamus nor Harry as ever, as far as we know, accused Ron of having bad intentions in thinking Draco was Harry's boyfriend. They know why he did what he did. Seamus still find it irritating.:-)

Wrote more there than I expected. Sorry.:-)

Anonymous @ June 1 2003, 23:46:20 UTC Thoughts

Hi!
This is the first time I’ve de-lurked and responded to anything in NrAged, so I guess I’ll just dive right into the discussion. ^_^
First of all, I’ve noticed that this post has led many of us to delve deeper into the convoluted realms of the H/D dynamic, as seen through the standpoint of many of the major characters most closely involved in current incidents and, to some extent, the perpetrator of this particular thread himself—Percy Weasley.
My input on the situation is this: yes, Percy’s observations of the situation are admittedly skewed, both because of Ron’s input and the opinions he derived from that input and the posts themselves; however, I feel that we cannot expect Percy, proper individual that he is, to maintain a purely objective opinion in light of the personal nature of these events.
Percy is, let’s remember, Ron’s brother; that comes first and foremost. No matter how detached and unbiased may you think you are, family is family, and it is unreasonable to assume that a person—even a person with such suburb self-control and sense of propriety as Percy—could muster and continuously hold a view directly contrary to that of his brother, especially when said brother is under fire from a vast multitude of personages and left without any aid, and most especially when considering that the person in question is the caring and protective older brother that Percy most certainly is.
Yes, Ron messed up.
We know this; Percy knows this; everyone knows this.
But enough is enough, wouldn’t you say? Stop persecuting the boy for it. There comes a time when you must stop kicking the old dead horse and do something about it, you know?
When just_harry messes up or potterstinks acts stupidly, we tend to forgive and forget because (as a loffly anonymous genius stated earlier in this thread) it is viewed as just another one of the many steps necessary to get them closer to the inevitable road to coupledom. (Aren’t I just so cool? I made up a word. #facepalms#)
But Ron doesn’t get any slack from most. Ron, loveable fool that he is, keeps making these blunders, but there’s nothing malicious behind them; yes, he may be jealous and insecure, but I for one honestly believe he is making an effort to establish a friendly relationship with Draco while still maintaining his status as “Harry’s Best Friend and Confidant.” Can we fault him for that?

Anonymous @ June 1 2003, 23:56:37 UTC Thoughts Con't (same author)

(Continuing from “Can we fault him for that?” from previous comment; this is part of the same comment, cut for length purposes)
This is how I think Percy is viewing the whole Ron situation right now; everyone is acting somewhat wonky at the moment, but Ron seems to be getting the brunt of everyone’s wrath, intentionally or not. Whether that rage is simply perceived or an actually is besides the point.
The fact of the matter is that Ron is sincerely affected by these concerns; Percy was acting out of an interest to protect and defend Ron from the people who are making him distressed by confronting them and holding them accountable for their actions and the repercussions for those actions, because goodness knows that, the way things were going, no one else would. (Side note: Am I the only one who thought it was utterly, utterly adorable that Weasley boys try to cheer people up by letting them win at board games? Squee! #huggles them#)
In fact, I myself think that Seamus and Draco overreacted in certain instances—and Harry certainly could have handled things with a bit more tact (though boys will be boys, I suppose, and I know I would have blundered things up worse than they are now if I had been one of them. It really shows just how true to form these players are keeping their characters, though, because I certainly think that everyone’s actions are spot-on #loffs NA players#). But I’m probably biased and blinded by the cuteness that is The Weasleys, so disregard my Momma!Weasley instincts. ^_~
In any case, more and more complexities and truths imbedded in Percy’s character are being revealed every day through sqee-worthy posts and LJ responses such as those we are discussing now; here, certainly, we get to see a great deal of Percy’s mindset and attitude, as well as the day-to-day interactions between himself and others, such as his family.
I am glad to see that Percy is developing so nicely both emotionally and socially; it was with great satisfaction that I noted behavior heretofore unseen or underrepresented by canon!Percy and Ron.
(Examples:
-Percy stood up to an authority figure. #dies#
-Ron continuously and publicly defends Percy and allows Percy to do the same for him.
-Affectionate Percy/Ron/Ginny sibling banter not detrimental to anyone’s character. (“What is less than three?” line is precious. <333 Percy)
-Unified Draco-bashing. (Even though I loff my darling Draco T_T))
Great job, NA players. #and there are many huggles and back-slapping and the likes# Kudos to you all! I must now go collapse from exhaustion, thankyouverymuch. Because, sadly, I have rambled too long and too hard and it is time for me to go to bed. Unless something interesting happens in the next few minutes. #eyes NA warily# Thou shalt not tempt me, beast! Back—back I say! #succumbs, and stays awake a few more minutes…just a few minutes, I swear! Maybe…#
—Miranda M, who is v. sorry for the long post, but couldn’t help herself

altricial @ June 2 2003, 00:15:39 UTC Re: Thoughts Con't (same author)

HI! YOU MUST HAVE AN LJ CODE. You rule.

That is all.

Email me at altricial@livejournal.com if you'd like said code!

Less than three,
Me.

black_dog @ June 2 2003, 10:21:12 UTC Re: Thoughts Con't (same author)

You know, this is making me rethink Percy a bit, and helping me to appreciate his player a bit more. I called Percy a fool, and on second thought this is quite unfair -- he just has a very, very indirect and occasionally eccentric way of expressing himself, but he sees a great deal. He is maybe a bit hermetic and self-regarding at times, without enough attention to getting his real meaning across. But this should make him an interpreter/decoder's dream character.

I do think he has some important facts wrong about Ron, but you correctly point out that his role is to be a brother and advocate here, to stick up for Ron when other people are only seeing their own sides of the situation. Yet I still can't let Ron entirely off the hook based on sheer good intentions. I do think that, consciously or not, Ron can't resist one-upping Malfoy, pushing his buttons in a way that defeats Harry's purposes, even though he often tries heroically to keep his mouth shut. In RL that would make him a major, major nuisance in his friend's romantic life, and it would be a problem, I think.

But Percy is most effective in forcing everyone to confront how badly Ron is hurt, and the seriousness of his own feelings. One of the things that made me back off the "fool" impression was Percy's sly response to McGonagall. Percy not only shows, indirectly, how hard he tried to make Ron go home, but reminds McGonagall that if Ron was willing to study the fascinating Mermish language with Percy, he really must have been singularly upset and perhaps deserves a break. Even in his original post, Percy's image of Ron "scampering off to the Quidditch pitch" when he returns to Hogwarts, and his memory of Sir Nick's story, also make a case for the authorities' leaving things well enough alone.

Percy's reply to Seamus is also interesting. He doesn't yield an inch, and makes it very clear ("I have stated only what Ronald told me." and several other phrases) that he is making his argument on the level of feelings, no matter what the facts may be, and admonishing friends to communicate better when they have strongly felt differences. He applies this to "Haauii" :) as well, later on.

Speaking of Seamus, I was quite ready, yesterday, to dismiss Ron's accusations (that Seamus had designs on Draco) out of hand. Oddly, it's Seamus' own behavior, his own recent posts, that make me wonder about this, and think his intentions may bear watching after all. We tend to think of Seamus as a bit of a saint, and certainly in his support for Harry during the outing he has been a true friend and showed good judgment. But here, he's protesting a little too much, I think. He seems strongly charmed, perhaps infatuated with Malfoy -- and he's going out of his way to maintain contact, and now maybe even facetiously offering to go off to Cannes to help him decorate.

Seamus' relationship with Dean has sometimes been problematic; it seems to have a very strong component of lust to it (not that there's anything wrong with that!) and I frankly don't, as a reader, totally get their emotional chemistry. And Ron couldn't have kept them apart for a weekend unless Dean was willing. Is there trouble here? Could Seamus be eyeing Malfoy, even if he's not admitting it to himself? If Ron's right about this, I'd have to radically rethink his actions and Percy's support.

Anyway, just kicking around a few ideas and stirring up trouble here.

sistermagpie @ June 2 2003, 08:24:41 UTC Re: Thoughts

I totally agree with this description of the situation, but I'm not sure where the disagreement you're referring to is coming from. Who is kicking Ron about anything? Who hasn't forgiven Ron? Seems to me the only people we know about who are irritated with Ron at the moment are Seamus and Draco. Seamus only brought it up again to defend himself against Percy's mischaracterizations.

It seems to me there's two things to consider here, Ron's feelings and his actions (with other characters' responses to those actions). Ron feels insecure and anxious about his role in Harry's life now that Harry appears to be changing and you have to love him for his attempts to do the right thing by his friend. This deserves sympathy and understanding. Then there is Ron's mistake. He misunderstood the situation. He wanted to do something for Harry. So he purposefully made Seamus annoyed with him by keeping him from Dean. Seamus asked him why he was doing this. Ron revealed his wonky ideas about what was going on, that Draco was Harry's boyfriend and Seamus was spending too much time with him. This upset three people for different reasons. Seamus was angry at Ron for monopolizing Dean and for saying he was spending a lot of time with Malfoy. Harry was horribly embarassed because Draco wasn't his boyfriend. Draco flipped out at the implication that he was involved in a homosexual affair with Potter. These were all perfectly predictable reactions to this kind of situation and we saw them in the heat of the moment.

Then Ron left the school. Seamus hasn't brought the matter up again, as far as we know, and neither has Harry. Ron says he and Harry talked at the Quidditch match. Malfoy told Percy that although he had originally procured "weapons" to kill Ron he'd decided not to use them. Hardly a show of great forgiveness but Malfoy is not calling for Ron's head here either. His post today, drama-queenish as it is, appears to be a reaction against Percy's post and not Ron's remarks.

I think it's sweet and Weasley-like for Percy to be protective of Ron here, but unfortunately, mostly he's just stirring the pot. I have no idea how Harry will react to this post but if I were him I'd be irritated by it because besides standing up for Ron's good intentions (good) Percy is picking fights with other people (bad). He claims Seamus and Harry don't care about Ron's motivations when as far as I can see Ron's motivations were clear to both of them and neither of them criticized them at all. All they both said was, "Ron, stop talking," in the thread. Then Percy hints that Harry is being a bad friend to Ron by having made peace with Malfoy, setting up a Malfoy vs. Ron thing that I can't see Harry going for. I just don't get what Harry has done wrong here. Ron and Harry were getting along fine, Ron embarassed Harry, Harry appears to have dealt with it okay. Not only is Percy accusing Harry of "accusatory behavior" (which I don't see) but he's blaming Harry for what Ron did:

"If you did not wish for Malfoy to be called your friend, perhaps you should have enlightened Ronald to this. "

Hello? Ron did not call Draco his friend he called him his boyfriend. How could Harry have known to tell Ron not to call Malfoy his boyfriend when he wasn't his boyfriend to begin with and Harry thought Ron knew this? It was an honest mistake on Ron's part but I hardly think j_h should be blamed for it!

Then he picks a fight with Malfoy and seems to think Harry he should be mad at him. Why? I understand Percy doesn't like Malfoy for good reason and he's got every right to say so, but how is this helping anything? Whatever problems Harry had with Malfoy's temper tantrum were worked out and are none of Percy's business. There's no reason to think Harry could work out any problems he has with Ron as well.

Ron has had a difficult time trying to be friends with Draco. Draco hasn't made it easy and I sympathize with Ron for having to deal with him. However, Ron's dislike of Draco is always right under the surface as well.

sistermagpie @ June 2 2003, 08:25:17 UTC Re: Thoughts

(con't)

Ron and Draco are alike in some ways and very different in others. Just as Ron's attempts at conversation rub Draco the wrong way Ron misunderstands Draco's way of talking to people too. Draco's time with Seamus shows that it's actually not impossible for everyone to get along with him. I don't think Ron's opinion of Draco has changed all that much and it shows. Isn't it a little silly for Percy to think Malfoy's supposed to respond to his insults and criticism (that Ron doesn't disagree with) by thinking Ron's offers of friendship are sincere?

One thing that's sure to not help things, as we've seen, is Ron's big family butting in and going after Malfoy as per usual. (One more reason for Draco to be wary of getting involved with Ron.) Percy's post, even with the sweet parts where he talks about letting Ron win at Literati, reminds me a lot of Pansy's post about Draco post-outing.

Anonymous @ June 2 2003, 11:25:53 UTC Re: Thoughts

I completely agree. Maybe that's why Lucius 's been unusually quiet for a while. He probably realises that Ron and the Weasleys are more than enough to unintentionally or subconciously (depending on individual interpretation) sabotage Harry and Draco's relationship. You know it's already screwed up if even a family member of your lover's friend (or potential lover) wants to participate. In real life, this'd be seriously disturbing and greatly annoying.