greenapricot @ August 6 2003, 06:02:34 UTC

I think it was Remus who had that icon. It does still say I've got a lovely spouse in his user info, which I am going to take a hopeful, because damnit we need something to be hopeful about.

el_erzulie @ August 6 2003, 06:04:19 UTC

True. Unless he just forgot it was there. =(

I'm going to bed. Sigh. Doonas are nice and warm and lovely and comforting.

bobbypin @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

greenapricot @ August 6 2003, 16:39:11 UTC wibble indeed

waaahh.

And, the icons called 'blue' and 'alone', so sad.
He doesn't have any happy icons left.

But, sirius black and padfoot are still listed in his interests. I'm just gonna sit here in the corner and think about that.

bobbypin @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

aurorasinger @ August 7 2003, 09:28:34 UTC Re: wibble indeed

But the "cub" icon is sweet....

I am so hoping this'll all work out.

This isn't fair of N_A, to leave us all hanging and hurting like this!!!!!!! *cries*

tortietta @ August 6 2003, 06:07:06 UTC

It was lupercus who had the picture that Dean drew as an icon. And if memory serves he removed it the night of the party, just as things between him and Sirius started to get really angsty!

And it's not sad you looked it up at all! Theirloveissomeanttobe! Wah! This is all so sad! *sobs*

fealindale @ August 6 2003, 06:19:47 UTC

Oh, no....This is so depressing...and Remus's 'family' icon now says 'pack'...c'mon, guys....everyone has fights....

insanelonewolf @ August 6 2003, 06:40:39 UTC

On the plus side, though, he's still got "sirius black" in his interests. Am hoping this is a good-ish sign.

*wibble*

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 03:38:30 UTC

Spike spike spike spike spike. :D

dry_your_eyes @ August 6 2003, 07:17:23 UTC

you know what?! I will never believe that R/S can end! NEVER
they belong together! *wibbles*

Maybe i'm a bit hypocritical, but i don't think what happened at the party could cause it all. There must be more reasons!

yes, it may have been the last straw, but i don't believe it..

*WIBBLES*

babytyggeryss @ August 6 2003, 07:34:13 UTC

I think the two have a chance once Sirius admits that he was wrong.

But it isn't Remus that Sirius must beg forgiveness from, it's Harry. Remus worked so hard to get Harry to stay with them for rest of the holiday and Sirius went and spoiled it. Harry is now back with those people because his Godfather had to indulge his need to flirt.

What Harry must be feeling right now, I can't imagine. Anger. Hurt. Betrayal. Pick one.

dry_your_eyes @ August 6 2003, 07:40:47 UTC

Harry is now back with those people
did they say it? link me, please!!

babytyggeryss @ August 6 2003, 07:50:10 UTC

I read this as saying that Sirius took Harry back to #4. I guess it could also mean that Harry just flooed or port-keyed back to DW, as Remus told Snape that 2 people were living there.

But regardless of where Harry is, things aren't as they should be because of Sirius. Remus will forgive him, but I think Sirius has hurt Harry more and so it is Harry whom he must plead forgiveness from.

dry_your_eyes @ August 6 2003, 07:54:58 UTC

we didn't hear from Harry after the party. And from draco as well.
I believe Harry doesn't want to share his family problems with his schoolmates.
I don't think Remus will forgive him so easily. Mainly because of Harry. He loves him more than a son (he said it!)
Damn you, Sirius. What were you thinking of?! his brain is located between his legs.

babytyggeryss @ August 6 2003, 08:13:12 UTC

I never said that Remus's forgiveness would come easily; it can't for the very reason you stated. Remus might take his ques from Harry or it might start after Sirius says that he's sorry. Who knows?

I don't think Harry will be talking about this either. It's too painful for all major players involved.

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 03:57:10 UTC

In my opinion I really don't think this should become all about Harry... I mean seriously. Harry got hurt, but Remus is the one who's heart got ripped out and trodden on.

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 03:39:36 UTC

I'm still confused about what exactly DID happen. =(

neveth @ August 6 2003, 07:29:16 UTC

Bear with me, I've only been awake for 45 minutes.

Judging from the tone of one of the replies to Severus, Harry seems to be siding with Sirius here. Poor man's getting heartbreak after heartbreak.

And this of course makes me cry.

I'm with Remus. Sirius is being extremely pig-headed about the "Don't talk to Lucius" thing, and well, if Sirius isn't willing to make a few concessions of a major sort (like Remus has done for him), maybe Remus isn't best off with him. As sad and heartbreaking as that would be. boy was THAT a long sentance. So I'll just sit here, wibble in my corner, and hope for the best.

aurorasinger @ August 6 2003, 07:43:28 UTC

WAH.

I am with Remus too. The Harry-is-siding-with-Sirius thing ripped my heart out and stomped on it with spiked heals. It's really only natural, since Sirius is his godfather and Remus is only his godfather's husband, but all the same.... Poor Remus! Also sad that he got kicked out of his own house.... *wibbles*

Yeah, and I was wondering what exactly happened to Harry's family time now that he finally got permission to stay at DW. :(

neveth @ August 6 2003, 07:48:58 UTC

It really isn't fair that Remus had to leave his own house like that. I think he left just to spare Harry from the sniping that would undoubtedly occur between Remus adn Sirius. That and the general tension and bad-times.

He got gypped out of it, due to his godfather's unwillingness to make concessions for his husband. *is just a tad angry with Sirius*

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 03:55:54 UTC

Just a tad?

*growls in Sirius's direction*

babytyggeryss @ August 6 2003, 07:58:52 UTC

Do we know that Harry is siding with Sirius? Maybe he's just living with him for the time being.

It maybe Remus's house but Harry seems to be closer to Sirius than Remus and both men wouldn't want Harry living at TLC, so it only makes sense that Remus be the one who leaves.

Poor Remus; how he must be hurting.

sistermagpie @ August 6 2003, 08:46:49 UTC

Yeah, I feel like I just don't know enough about the situation yet to comment on it except to say it's sad and everyone is hurting. Harry spent time with Remus so I don't think we could really say he's "siding" with Sirius. It's just that Sirius is his primary guardian, I suppose. Remus appears to have been the one to move out and leave the two of them at Dogear, for which Snape calls him a martyr.

Sirius referred to his partial success with Neville as proving he could "do something right." That made me think there is more to this than just Sirius being stubborn about Lucius. Sirius has indicated in the past that he feels like he's not trusted, that Remus thinks even his talking to another person shows he hasn't changed at all and this hurts him. Obviously, too, he would never want to hurt Harry so that would also be painful, to be told he didn't care about Harry's being hurt.

I admit I just don't get Sirius' deal with Lucius--but that's why I'm not ready to pass judgement on it. You do have to wonder why Dumbledore wanted Lucius there in the first place, btw. Isn't this similar to the pattern at the last party, where Sirius didn't invite Lucius, but talked to him while he was there, and that led to Remus declaring him a cheater? I get the feeling Sirius feels rather set up and trapped by the situation, but that his pride won't allow him to do exactly what Remus needs him to do to feel better. This is not to say I'm coming down on Remus for this situation as the bad guy either, though. He's obviously hurting too. Wah!

babytyggeryss @ August 6 2003, 10:13:12 UTC

I had forgotten about the bachelor parties; that was a nice mess. And yes, Lucius showed up uninvited and caused trouble; he seems to enjoy that a little too much.

I have so many mixed feelings about this. I want everyone to be happy, I want everything to be fixed so things can return to normal. I want Sirius and Remus to sit down and just talk. Get everything off their chests; feelings, ideas, needs, wants, changes, fears.

I want both men to feel better about themselves. I want Harry to be happy. I want fluff, sap, and sexual innuendo.

tabiji @ August 7 2003, 00:25:49 UTC

I want both men to feel better about themselves. I want Harry to be happy. I want fluff, sap, and sexual innuendo.


:D

imochan @ August 6 2003, 08:48:11 UTC

I feel awful taking sides here, mostly because to me one is incomplete without the other, but WAH! REMUS!! :O "Martyrdom" or not, it really does seem (from what we know) like he's been shafted horribly.

And I HOPE TO GOD j_h is NOT playing favourites. *stare*

aurorasinger @ August 6 2003, 08:54:40 UTC

aww well j_h is only human....

but just think to yourself--if your parents got separated (ionno, are they? eh...), and they told you to pick who you'd live with...how do you say the one without crushing the other? and then there's pressure from the parents themselves. and i'm sure sirius would place more of a "claim" on harry. remus has also always struck me as a bit timid, esp. when he's hurt, so he wouldn't really object very verbosely.

i will go cry now. so sad.

imochan @ August 6 2003, 09:36:52 UTC

WAH! you're v. right of course. But me, being the weepy peanut gallery, can only be selfish and think OMG NO!!!!!

can't this be fixed yet? ;_;

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 03:46:27 UTC

You express yourself well for having just gotton up! :))) Sigh. You are right. I am mad at Sirius. Sometimes people make unreasonable requests, but even if Siris wanted to say that he wasn't willing to do that, the way he said it was completely and utterly wrong. *clenches fists*

Anyway. :)

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 03:48:08 UTC

:O Sirius was such a bastard in that post! And... fuck Harry. *glares*

Sorry. Ummm. Rage.

novembersnow @ August 6 2003, 12:13:40 UTC

Has anyone else noticed that lupercus now has changed several of his icons, and changed the keywords on all of them?

Breaks my heart, this does.

merlion @ August 6 2003, 12:25:49 UTC

And none of his keywords are especially positive. Like he doesn't plan on being happy for a long time.

*sighs* This rift is going to take some serious time and effort to heal.

imochan @ August 6 2003, 12:31:30 UTC

He's removed the line in his UserInfo about having a wonderful spouse and oddson, too! OMG THE PAIN :O :O :O

STOP STOP STOP. *heartattacks*

zionsstarfish @ August 6 2003, 12:58:32 UTC

Waah! *is stabbed*

He does have a 'cub' icon though, which is terminally cute and I hope he gets to write lengthy posts about Harry and how happy he is... soon? Ummmm soon? *puppy dog eyes*

imochan @ August 6 2003, 13:10:21 UTC

I think the saddest thing is that his icon of the footprint used to have the keywords "lasting impression" or something to that effect... and now it just says: "gone"

I am now officially offering my right arm, an old yo-yo, three rubber bands and all the change in my pocket, plus my baby-making capabilities to the first person who can set this right. $5000000000000000000 reward!!!!

muggleangel @ August 6 2003, 14:55:29 UTC

*dies, and not in a happy way*

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 04:04:51 UTC

:O Took away the oddson?! Umm, that'd be Harry, yes? Sorry, I have never heard that term. *L* Anyway, if he's taking Harry off...

Well. Is it because if he's not with Sirius they have no legal tie [Sirius being his guardian would kind of give him one, right?] or because just_harry is siding with Sirius?

Gah. I want Remus to go shag some pretty thing, to make me feel better. Just you know, get his own back. Or he could flirt with.. oh, well, clearly Severus is the man for this job. Bet Sirius would L-O-V-E it. I'm so bitter. *L*

bookofjude @ August 6 2003, 17:54:56 UTC

*cries and cries*

dragynville @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 04:10:59 UTC

Gah! And they're fictional characters, but they have such personality and voice! *snickers at self* Pathetic!

*L* So true!

dragynville @ August 6 2003, 18:30:43 UTC

I don't think that means that Harry is siding with Remus. Harry can't go to the Leaky Cauldron or stay at Hogwarts so, therefore, he must either stay at DW or return to #4. I think it means Remus is being selfless and allowing Harry to stay at DW with Sirius, who is essentially Harry's "father" (which places Remus in the role of "stepfather").

Narcissa's post makes me want to cry. Her description of Remus (bedraggled, unshaven, unkept, detached, shaky, and bitter) was so horribly evocative of someone fast reaching their breaking point. ;_; And Sirius is being so unemotional almost, and so totally in the wrong and not admitting it, that I just want to hit him!

Gah! And they're fictional characters, but they have such personality and voice! *snickers at self* Pathetic!

astrumetluna @ August 6 2003, 19:10:22 UTC

Hello. Long time lurker, first time poster and non-native English speaker here. ^^

Am I the only one who thinks Sirius is not being completely unreasonable? As much as I understand Remus' feelings regarding Lucius Malfoy, we haven't read what Sirius thinks about the fight. We don't know why Lucius was there. We don't know why we had to go on a trip. We don't know what orders Dumbledore has given him.

But what I know is that if you're going to have a serious relationship with somebody, there's got to be trust between you. For what we know (and unless something else happenned that we haven't learned yet), Sirius was only talking with Lucius. We don't know if Dumbledore ordered him to be in a good relationship with him or if he has his own reasons (maybe because Lucius is Draco's father and he doesn't want to complicate —more— any possible relationship between he and Harry? I mean, Remus gets along with Narcissa, but hates Lucius. And Draco listens more to his father than to his mother).

Neville wrote that Sirius seemed sad when he talked about trust. As even if Sirius has made many mistakes in his past, right now he might have a reason to be angry: he married Remus. He has never denied his love for him. But he needs to feel that Remus trusts him.

Now, I'm not saying that Sirius is completely innocent. Only that he's not as guilty and evil and cruel as we think. I hate when someone I truly love doesn't trust me, even if I'm not doing anything wrong. I adore Remus, but I can relate to Sirius here.

merlion @ August 6 2003, 19:39:10 UTC

I agree that it isn't either Remus's or Sirius's fault. By the time a fight reaches this point, they have each had a hand in it. And therefore, they BOTH have to be involved in the solution.

sistermagpie @ August 6 2003, 19:47:23 UTC

Oh yes, I think that's exactly the type of thing Sirius is struggling with. These issues have been going on for a while now on both sides and I don't think it's as simple as Sirius (or Remus, of course) being wrong and just not admitting it. I doubt it's even totally about Lucius himself. These are two guys who love each other and have a lot of history; neither of them is just going to throw it away over something stupid.

The only thing I feel like I really know in this situation is that Sirius and Remus are both miserable. :-(

Anonymous @ August 6 2003, 20:13:27 UTC

I agree. This's the first time I feel sorry for NA!Sirius. Yes, Lucius's a DE, but he's also Sirius' friend, one of a few adults in this LJ community Sirius regularly communicates with. It's such a small social circle, pretty hard to avoid each other. After Sirius' marriage, I haven't seen any concrete evidence, indicating their continuous affair. All he did in the party was talking. If talking to someone equals distrust, I don't see how their marriage will survive. Hopefully they'll be willing to work things out quickly before it's too late.

dari_brit @ August 6 2003, 20:57:09 UTC

But then again, there's talking and then there's *talking*. Having a pleasant conversation with someone is different than the innuendo-loaded exchanges between Sirius and Lucius. Admittedly, Lucius is almost always the agent provocateur-- I can't accuse Sirius of that.

I agree that trust of your partner is necessary in any relationship. Unfortunately, Sirius has occasionally demonstrated his "untrustworthiness". It's up to Remus and Sirius to determine the level of openness in their marriage, but I still can't imagine it not hurting.

The other issue is the fact that it's LUCIUS. Even if Remus can trust Sirius, when it comes straight down to it, Lucius can't be trusted. He's not on the side of light. Extramarital affairs are one thing, but when you're talking about sleeping with the enemy...

Of course, this does put a twist on it. Perhaps Dumbledore's idea is to use the already existing relationship between Sirius and Lucius to gather information on the Death Eaters?

"Beware of pretty faces that you find
A pretty face can hide an evil mind
Ah, be careful what you say
Or you'll give yourself away
Odds are you won't live to see tomorrow..."

--"Secret Agent Man", Johnny Rivers

eponis @ August 7 2003, 04:36:11 UTC

I agree with all your points.

Also, what's important is not just "Lucius is evil and he flirts with Sirius, not talks" - it's that this isn't a new issue. Walking out on your spouse because they were flirting at a party is an over-reaction. Walking out on your spouse because there is one issue on which you refuse to compromise - one friend whom you (rightly) believe to be extremely dangerous - and your partner refuses to agree, or even acknowledge that you have a reasonable request - is very understandable. Frankly, even if Remus hated Lucius because he said mean things about Remus's mum once, it's not that big of a request, and Sirius is (to be blunt) a fool if he puts this friendship over his relationship with Remus. I've never noticed anything significantly deep about Lucius and Sirius's "friendship"; unless they save all their deep thoughts for offline conversations, it seems to be not much beyond mutual sex drives. The fact that Sirius refuses to compromise in this area (and sometimes yes, compromise means giving in on a particular issue) is to me extremely worrisome.

That is why, as much as I think the two of them make a really sweet couple, I really don't think that Remus just going back, or even just talking things out, would be enough of a solution. There are deeper issues here - not just issues of trust but issues of respect and compromise.

sistermagpie @ August 7 2003, 10:00:16 UTC

I hesitate, though, because I don't know what Sirius is refusing to do, exactly. I mean, if it's just a situation of Sirius finding Lucius amusing and wanting to flirt with him then yes, he's be a fool, since this not only hurts Remus but dismisses the fact that Lucius is a DE. And this can hardly be a non-issue for Sirius; James and Lily were killed by Voldemort, he was put in Azkaban for years because of it; he seems to openly despise Draco for behavior and attitudes he obviously learned at Lucius' knee. So I just have to believe there's some reason Sirius deals with Lucius the way he does, something that we don't know about and that Sirius isn't able to tell Remus. Because now it's gone beyond Sirius just insisting on talking to Lucius. Now he almost appears to be choosing Lucius over his marriage. I can't believe Sirius would do that. There's got to be something more to it.

Anonymous @ August 6 2003, 22:12:56 UTC

Death Eaters are no one's friend.

He might as well be chatting with Voldemort over tea.

babytyggeryss @ August 6 2003, 22:28:18 UTC

Lucius was very bold at the party on Saturday, saying that he knows people who would be interested in the guest list.

I think he's up to something as he's never done that before.

The mask slipped a little.

Anonymous @ August 6 2003, 23:57:07 UTC

Lucius as a DE is nothing new, apparently Sirius didn't hesitate to have an affair with him in the past. If not a friend, what should I call his relationship with Sirius? Maybe Death Eathers are no one's friends, but I still see Lucius as a human being, Narcissa's husband and Draco's father as well. In my opinion, besides being a DE, there might be something else in Sirius and Lucius ' relationship which 's extremely disturbed Remus. At the bachelor party, he was furious enough to have a duel.

I know that sometimes "talking" is not just "talking". But comparing with "neck rubs" between Arthur and Pansy (yeah..yeah..I believe Arthur's innocent), that case 's more disturbing to me.

But if it turns out to be a part of Dumbledore's plan, at this point Dumbledore should do something to help them. Having seen a lot of Snape/Remus lately, I 'm rather uncertain of their reconciliation.

moony @ August 7 2003, 00:42:19 UTC

Am I the only one here who thinks that Sirius/Lucius is just wrong no matter how you look at it because the man is evil and has tried to kill Harry not once but three times?

I mean, what part of that is at all forgivable? Why on earth would Harry's own Godfather even be CIVIL to a man like Lucius Malfoy?

Am I insane?

babytyggeryss @ August 7 2003, 01:40:53 UTC

Knowing what we know about Lucius, no you aren't crazy.

Lucius Malfoy maybe human but he's quite happy laying around in the bed he's made for himself. He likes being a DE and would like his Heir to follow in his footsteps ($50 says there was a Malfoy in Riddle's close circle of friends at school; Lucius's father perhaps?).

Narcissa needs to leash her husband and Sirius needs to find a good hex.

astrumetluna @ August 7 2003, 21:22:42 UTC

Might be too late to continue this thread, but...
No, you're not insane. Remus has all the right to be angry. Lucius is a despicable human being. If someone tried to do that to my son, I would kill him (so Remus is being more prudent than I am).

But I must insist in what I wrote before: we don't know Sirius' thoughts and reasons. If he had hinted that he had a good reason to be civil to him, or —on the other hand— if he had said that he has the right to keep in touch with his old friends, it good be easy to support/hate him. It is easy to side with Remus because we know his point of view and can understand it. But until Sirius gives his, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. When he posts his truth, if he does, it will be easier to understand the relationship as a whole. Meanwhile, it's just speculation.

NA!Sirius may have made lots of mistakes, but, after all, NA!Remus married him knowing that. He wasn't cheated nor tricked: he knew what he was getting into. And well... marriage won't have the magic effect of disappearing the faults of each part, but love *might* do it. Even if it takes a long time.

Or at least I hope so. ;_;

anatidae @ August 6 2003, 23:53:13 UTC

Are you a player? Are you anonymous for the hell of it? If not, would you like a code?

*ENCOURAGES!!1!*

Anonymous @ August 7 2003, 00:40:33 UTC

Haha! You are so cute.

I don't need a code, thank you!

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 04:17:53 UTC

*L* I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who tries to force codes upon others. :D Hee. Lj Is The Way!

anatidae @ August 8 2003, 01:35:24 UTC

Anything to help Nraged take over the world Livejournal ;;)

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 04:12:38 UTC

You could be right about the trust thing. Still... can't help but feel for Remus.

windtear @ August 7 2003, 00:39:09 UTC

I really, really want Sirius to post with his side. The way this has happened, it seems like it's been building a while and he needs to say something.

It might indeed be that he doesn't feel trusted... but until he says that, nobody can say to him, "Yes, but you can earn Remus' trust by...."

Incidentally, some suggestions for the completion of that sentence include: stopping flirting with his sworn enemy; giving foot massages; and listening to him. I get the impression Remus' friendship with Narcissa is at least partly based on the fact that she's prepared to listen to him.

(I don't know; I am not the trusting sort, but based on his behaviour I wouldn't trust Sirius wholly either. In fact, if I had been Remus, I wouldn't have married him at all. But, as I said, I do not trust easily and I take betrayal of any kind as a sword to the heart.)

el_erzulie @ August 7 2003, 04:19:54 UTC

The thing is Sirius has been very harsh in his responses. Remus seems more upset, Sirius is really being narky and disregarding the fact that Remus would be shattered.

So really, does Sirius find himself so blamemess, or did Remus do more than we know? More than not trusting him, that is.

sistermagpie @ August 7 2003, 10:05:17 UTC

Remember too, though, that Sirius is harsher, period. Lupin has always been the softer, more emotionally open of the two. Sirius' time spent in Azkaban really shows a lot of of the time--he's the darker character. Lupin, for all the things he's suffered, is generally more at peace. He's more apt to be sad than angry.

I think we should also remember that Sirius has huge reasons to feel strongly about the trust issue beyond his being promiscuous in the past. For years everyone believed he had betrayed James and Lily--iirc Remus even admitted that he doubted Sirius then, but Sirius forgave him even though that had to hurt.

el_erzulie @ August 8 2003, 07:11:17 UTC

Of course he's harsher but still. Gah. Anyway, all of your points are so valid. I'm horrible, I react very much "with the heart" so to speak. *L*

windtear @ August 7 2003, 22:30:49 UTC

All the more reason for Sirius to post his side! He is being condemned by his silence.

wintercreek @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

el_erzulie @ August 8 2003, 07:20:17 UTC

True. Like that chapter is closed for the moment, but it may very well reopen!

Anonymous @ August 7 2003, 19:11:48 UTC

I wish there was something we could do to help Remus and Sirius. They need to be together. It must be killing both of them to be apart. Gosh, why can't they just realize that one day, they could wake up and one of them could be gone forever. They would be in so much pain, 10 times worse than they are in now. This is really bothering me.

"They call 'love is a risk, you'll always get hit out of nowhere by some wave and end up on your own. I spoke the words but never gave a thought to what they all could mean.' -Brand New