eponis @ August 13 2003, 23:52:27 UTC

I'm not quite ready to run you out of town ::grin:: ; in some ways I agree.

This isn't directly agreeing or contradicting, but there's a kind of nice symmetry about the three marriages in crisis at the moment, and I think it's worth comparing them.

One one end is the Weasleys. Clearly there are issues to deal with, but they're not issues of inherent personality: they're questions of frustrations built up and poor decisions. I don't think anyone thinks (::crosses fingers::) that this separation can last much longer, because, beneath all the frustration, they love and need each other, and they just need each other to be more open and understanding.

Then there's the Malfoys. Quite the opposite of poor decisions or frustrations, their separation isn't just the result of a mistake or misunderstanding: it's the slow, growing result of Narcissa really trying to evaluate her marriage and her husband. While I can see a short-term reconciliation in the future, every time it happens, it's clearly short-term; nothing has changed, beyond the addition of a new bauble in Narcissa's boudoir.

Remus and Sirius, to me, represent a middle path, and that's why I'm not sure which way they should go. In some ways, this separation is based on poor decisions (most obviously the Sirius/Lucius issue, but others as well). However, as you point out, there are also basic personality differences, things that won't change even if they come to an agreement or deeper understanding and openness. Whenever they actually talk openly about their disagreement, which is rare, both say something to the effect of "I wish he would just understand that this is who I am and what I need." Though they can change how they act, and though they clearly love each other, they can't change who they fundamentally are.

That's why the S/R issue is most interesting to me: unlike the other two, I truly don't know which way it will or should go.

babytyggeryss @ August 14 2003, 00:23:20 UTC

I love your comparison.

I wonder if we won't see Narcissa moving out of the manor should she find her marriage and husband lacking. I have always had the feeling that Nacissa's part in her son's life was over soon after he was born. Lucius would then pour him into the Malfoy mold and Naricssa only had to re-enforce her husband's teachings.

As to Sirius and Remus, they do love each other. No questions there. But again, it comes down to personality. Remus is very level-headed and has always had to be the "adult" as Sirius has a very short tempter. Remus is a thinker, Sirius is a doer. Remus enjoys books and other scholarly activities that Sirius doesn't. Not once have I read an entry where Sirius spent a quite evening with anyone. He likes to be moving, on the go. Remus would be very happy to spend the rest of his life with one person. Sirius.......well, we've all seen that list.

They aren't equals where they need to be and the strengths of one might not be able to hold up the weaknesses of the other.

Love and good sex might not be able to save this relationship.

Time will tell.

babytyggeryss @ August 13 2003, 23:57:14 UTC

You aren't the only one with those thoughts; I've entertained them many times.

tabiji @ August 14 2003, 00:04:59 UTC

They're not getting one another.

I thing that's the whole thing. They're going through what is probably the biggest problem between any couple, in that they aren't communicating. Yea, they've kind of talked, they have argued, and they've both stated how they feel, but neither is really hearing the other.


Remus says: "I wish you wouldn't talk to Lucius Malfoy. He's a Death Eater bastard, I can't believe you're getting cozy with him. He's dangerous"

Sirius hears: "Lucius Malfoy is a bastard. You're getting cozy with him." Given Sirius' past, he may feel he's automatically being accused of being unfaithful, even if it's not warranted. The self-defense mechanism kicks in, and he doesn't hear the rest.

From there, it just becomes a battle of who can be louder, because neither is being heard. Then out of frustration, they stop trying to talk over each other, and just stop talking.

imochan @ August 14 2003, 06:15:04 UTC

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH. I thought that was brilliant. Wah. And so true. Damn, who said RPGs had be all reality-esque anyway. it hurts on the inside...

bentley @ August 14 2003, 01:57:18 UTC

I completely agree. It could possibly be because I am admiring the geniality that Remus and Seveurus are entertaining sans Sirius, but I still think you're right. They might be the cutest couple in the world, but I don't think they were ready to handle a long-term relationship. It wasn't fair of them to try, and have Harry in the middle.

*follows you to the bomb shelter*

anjaliesque @ August 14 2003, 08:31:01 UTC

I have definitely been thinking about this, and applying it to all the marriages on the rocks. All the NrAgeders have been upset, yes, and that includes myself. But everyone begging for so-and-so to forgive the other, for a couple to just get back together, to stop the angst and get back to the fluff...that's all very well, but will it solve anything? The problems will just be shelved into a box on the shelf, and the eventual next fight might be much worse. I hope we're not pulling a Lavender.

Narcissa has left Lucius before and eventually gone back, yet the state of things now suggests nothing was resolved. I suppose what the really need is a heart-to-heart, as do Molly and Arthur. There need to be some definitely changes in their household. I think it's that it may have irked us a little that Molly was a through-and-through housewife, but seeing her power and the obvious joy she took in it, we found it easy to accept. Yet it seems that everyone accepted it too much, and when Molly hits her getting-old crisis there isn't anyone who sympathizes.

Now, Remus and Sirius on the other hand are quite worrisome. Yes, they've had enormous problems before, and somehow got over them. What's saddening is that they were married so very recently, and yet there is already a problem, big enough to warrant a moving-out. Because they were married, one assumed that they had got over their issues from before. Since they obviously haven't, is it possible that they had only married in a time that they both were getting along? I don't like to think that their marriage was so fragile and non-meaningful, but I suppose it is possible. It would explain why now there is enough feeling to warrant a separation.

la_trix @ August 14 2003, 09:04:46 UTC

Good call on the Lavender comparison. They can't just simply kiss and make up; they have real issues with each other and basic differences in personality to overcome here ...

dari_brit @ August 16 2003, 16:45:06 UTC

Back from a week of vacation-- so much Q&A, cannot cope!

This must be extremely challenging for Lavender to be surrounded by all this discord. During the Veritaserum party, didn't it come out that her parents were considering getting divorced? The Weasley/Malfoy/R/S must be affecting her bigtime, hence her pleas to "Stay together! T_T"

As far as the Remus/Sirius...I'd really like them to pull it out, but I understand where you're coming from. The lack of communication (and, I feel, trust) really hurts a relationship tremendously.

I am admiring the immense amount of work that goes into these story arcs, with parallels and connections and character development, etc. And to think that I wondering at the beginning of summer how N_A would handle the "out-of-school slump!" The return to Hogwarts might almost be an emotional relief after this crazy angsty summer....

athene_51 @ August 14 2003, 08:32:56 UTC

Looks like you may have some company in that bomb shelter! I know I've got one foot in the door.

I'm really not sure which way it should go. I'm loving (and hating, simultaneously) the angst of the current jadedsirius/lupercus troubles. If they can get back together and be happy, that's great and I will be very pleased. Maybe they're just destined to have a volatile relationship filled with highs and lows. A few tough times could make them stronger.

But if they get back together, tentatively and with their feelings slightly hurt, and something like this happens again, I wonder if it might be too damaging for the characters. Sometimes what's right isn't what you want, and what you want isn't always right. I wonder how much they can take before they're no longer able to forgive each other? Before just_harry finds himself directly involved in an argument? Before the members of nraged spontaneously combust? ;)

Anyway, I don't think I'm explaining my point of view very well, so I'll leave the complex theorizing for the other Nragers that do it so well. I guess it comes down to me being indecisive. I'll be happy if they get back together, but I can also see reasons why they maybe shouldn't, disappointing as that possibility may be. I trust that the players know what they're doing (and they're doing it so well! <3), so I'll just anxiously wait and see.

sistermagpie @ August 14 2003, 09:26:12 UTC

No bombs from me! This is the question we should be asking, I think, since the characters are obviously asking it themselves! I feel like I still don't know exactly what their dynamic is, so I don't really have an opinion on whether it could work or not.

Remus and Snape do seem to be connecting now, but even with them I'm not sure if getting together would necessarily be the best thing. They may work better as very good friends and a relationship would mess it up--sometimes the person it seems like you should be with just isn't the person you should be with, you know? I'd hate to think of them being in a relationship where Remus was at all still hung up on Sirius because, you know, Severus deserves anyone's full attention and Remus knows it! Plus I think Remus can probably be very difficult in his own way...though that sounds very strange to say given that Remus is such a great guy. I don't mean he's a jerk but that he's got his own things he needs, his own irrational things he wants just like anyone else. Sirius may provide things for him we can't really understand with the limited view of them we get reading NA.

If Sirius and Remus did break up, like I said in the linked post, I think the main people effected will be themselves. I don't think Harry ever needed them to be romantically involved with each other. He'd have been equally happy with them as his godfathers if they were both straight or just uninvolved. I think he gets joy out of seeing them happy together, but his own happiness doesn't depend on their being romantically involved.

zorb @ August 14 2003, 09:52:52 UTC

*crawls out of shelter, relieved*

I agree about Remus and Snape; I like them as friends, and I think the last thing either Remus or Sirius needs right now is another guy. Last time they broke up, they latched onto others, and that obviously didn't solve anything permanently. I think they may be clinging to the idea of each other now because they simply don't know how to be happy alone.

Sigh. They remind me of some RL couples I know, those types whom you just want to grab, shake, and say, "Make up your bloody minds already!"