dragynville @ September 5 2003, 00:12:41 UTC

(Hah! You beat me to it. :D)

It was always like that with us back then, but it isn't now. Not anymore.

Is it just me, or does that not have the ring of the death knell to it? (And that bit about perfect doesn't help.) >.>

And he mentions the chat with Narcissa, that he came away wiser, but not what they talked about..!

hobaggins @ September 5 2003, 00:26:11 UTC

Is it just me, or does that not have the ring of the death knell to it?

I definitely think that Lupin's posts feel like the separation is more permanent as time goes on. It doesn't so much give off the air of hopelessness though, which is so great, it just seems really... resolved. It must be really incredibly unimaginably hard for Lupin to see Black, it's easy to separate actions and emotions from a distance.

It must have hurt Lupin so absurdly much to not be able to forgive Sirius this. He was so very much in love. They were so very much in love. And it wasn't very.long.ago at all. It's easy to forget the emotional layer when it isn't being brought up directly, the difficulties just add up and never stop. And yet, I don't really think Lupin will falter in his decision. Unless circumstances aren't as I fear them to have been, and I misinterpreted subtleties. I ache that Lupin's pain isn't at the end.

tabiji @ September 5 2003, 00:34:36 UTC

I ache that Lupin's pain isn't at the end.

Yes, yes, yes. It is the hardest thing to have to force yourself to walk away from someone that you love desperately because the rational part of you says that it's not a healthy place to be in.

He does seem very resolved, (Harry too), and I think that's great. On one hand, I'm surprised that Sirius isn't making any efforts to change that (at least that we can see), but then again, it fits in with the theorizing about Sirius' behaviour being self-destructive.

*sends hugs and love to the players*

anoni @ September 6 2003, 03:53:48 UTC

The thing is, Sirius did try to mend the problems quite a few times, both before and after the separation, but when his approaches were rejected on almost every occasion, I guess he gave up for a bit. Then again, he never quite went far enough - I remember hoping he would go after Remus right after the breakup since his post sounded so depressed, but then, Lucius appeared and it went downhill from there. Being friendly with Lucius was definitely the easier option, and he stood no chance of being rejected. It ties in perfectly with his self-destructive tendencies too.

I do think his last few posts sound lonely, though. I'm not excusing him or anything - though nobody knows *exactly* what the great catastrophic event was - but he's quite friendless at the moment. Does anyone know where he is? We haven't heard from him for a while. ::misses him::

hobaggins @ September 5 2003, 00:17:07 UTC

First off, Lupin's new layout is still gorgeous, hmmm..... it makes me feel really wistful.

Lupin seems so full of resolve now. He just seems like he had lost his footing, and now that he has it back, he's getting confident of his balance (I hate my metaphors, but it's late. Ack. So imperfect, so cliche). When Lupin speaks of the past now it doesn't seem that he's blinded by the good-time-nostalgia, it seems more separate from him.

I've no idea what to make of the fire chat with Narcissa, but am curious if that had any bearing on Narcissa's Hera post from earlier. It's interesting that Lupin is encouraging Narcissa to get away from being away now. I'm wondering if that exact wording is significant.

tymbrimi @ September 5 2003, 01:01:48 UTC

I'm not really very tired tonight and he looks surly. Perfect.

Not than an amiable potions_master is easy to imagine, but the fact that lupercus prefers a challenging Severus makes me feel all goey about their friendship. aw ^_^

tabiji @ September 5 2003, 01:05:02 UTC

Hmmmm. I read the "Perfect" as sarcasm, but I like your idea!

sistermagpie @ September 5 2003, 07:46:40 UTC

The main thing that stuck out for me was Remus' characterization of school days with Sirius:

It's very easy to imagine it's 1975 again and Sirius and I are having a row about his latest prank on Severus.

Interesting change from things in canon, where Snape considers all the Marauders his enemies. Now Remus was always defending him against mean Sirius, getting into fights with Sirius on Snape's behalf? This sounds like some real ret-conning going on here to strengthen his ties to Snape: Remus and James were the good Marauders, Sirius was the bad influence and Peter didn't exist. What is it exactly he loves/loved about Sirius?

I've become very sensitive to Remus using the word "sulking" about other people ever since he described Harry as such before Harry walked out on him. Sirius quite possibly sulking his heart out, but sulking rarely feels like sulking to the person doing it.

Anonymous @ September 5 2003, 07:59:27 UTC

It's not really a change from canon too much.

In OOTP Sirius says that Lupin made him "feel ashamed sometimes", which speaks to disagreements about the pranking going on.

And Lupin admits in his post that "eventually I would cave in" so it's not as if he's trying to retcon himself as the Great Snape Defender.

sistermagpie @ September 5 2003, 08:12:22 UTC

Oh yes, I know that Remus was the one who felt that way, though saying he was getting into arguments over Sirius' treatment of Severus--which in canon is more of a James/Sirius thing--is making him more proactive. But still, bringing this up now in this way seems a pretty obvious step closer to Snape and away from Sirius, and a nice little self-promotion as well. Why would he just happen to mention today that in 1975 he was forever having rows with Sirius over his shameful treatment of Snape before he "gave in" to Sirius' irresistable pouting and sulking? I have a hard time believing this is a completely accurate depiction of their friendship in 1975.

Anonymous @ September 5 2003, 08:54:11 UTC

Why would he just happen to mention today that in 1975 he was forever having rows with Sirius over his shameful treatment of Snape before he "gave in" to Sirius' irresistable pouting and sulking?

Because today relations with Sirius are strained, and so he naturally thinks about a time as a schoolboy when relations with Sirius were strained?

I have a hard time believing this is a completely accurate depiction of their friendship in 1975.

It may not be intended to be complete -- as he's not thinking about the happy times, but that doesn't mean it's not accurate.

He might also be considering the fact that he's grown out of being influenced by Sirius' sulking. If this is the case, is that "self-serving" ponderings, or a healthy step for the character?

sistermagpie @ September 5 2003, 09:29:27 UTC

Because today relations with Sirius are strained, and so he naturally thinks about a time as a schoolboy when relations with Sirius were strained?

Yes, it does make sense that's why he's thinking about it, though it doesn't sound like they were all that strained back then.

It may not be intended to be complete -- as he's not thinking about the happy times, but that doesn't mean it's not accurate.

He might also be considering the fact that he's grown out of being influenced by Sirius' sulking. If this is the case, is that "self-serving" ponderings, or a healthy step for the character?


I don't believe Remus was ever influenced by Sirius' sulking and pouting the way he is characterizing himself. I fully admit this is a way of looking at the world that's a bias of mine, one that was really drilled into me as a kid, but it's the way I see the world. It's never a healthy step to blame anyone else for your decisions even in an offhand way. If Sirius was a bad influence on Remus it was because Remus wanted that bad influence. If he's more resistant to Sirius' sulking now perhaps it's because he cares about this issue in ways he didn't care about Snape (and perhaps he now wishes he cared more, who knows?). I just don't see Sirius having ever had any undue influence over Remus whatsoever. I don't doubt there is truth in what Remus is saying here, but "gave in" is a subtle way of, imo, trying to have it both ways.

Anonymous @ September 5 2003, 13:28:11 UTC

I don't believe Remus was ever influenced by Sirius' sulking and pouting the way he is characterizing himself.

I guess I disagree with this. As far as canon, he disagreed with James & Sirius' treatment of Snape, and made them feel guilty about it, but never pushed it, never did anything about it (by his own admission). This could be read as an admission that while he was uncomfortable, he wasn't terribly moral, hence the not pushing. But canon Lupin always seemed to me to be a bit of a...sort of pushover. He let people talk him into things, even things that made him feel guilty or he believed were wrong (such as running around freely as a werewolf as a student, which could have caused injury or death to some innocent who happened to be out on the grounds). His school-aged self strikes me as exactly the sort who would give into Sirius if Sirius either argued with him or sulked at him.

And, frankly, that's how the character seems to me to have been played here, as well. He seemed to always be shaving off standards for Sirius. Being wibbly and wishywashy and eventually backing down when things went wrong between them. It's a characteristic that I've found interesting -- an unpleasant characteristic, but realistic, you know? And doubly fascinating now, since he seems to be trying to stop it.

On the other hand, I know I could be wrong. He might be a truly manipulative person (knowingly or unknowingly), and I could be falling for it. Which is really only a concern of mine because it'd be pretty horrible if it was a sham and Harry was falling for it, too. Would be very sad for Harry.

Anonymous @ September 5 2003, 13:41:10 UTC

The above is a different 'anonymous' than the 'anonymous' to whom sistermagpie replied, and the 'anonymous' handing out stars. By the way.

sistermagpie @ September 5 2003, 15:44:09 UTC

His school-aged self strikes me as exactly the sort who would give into Sirius if Sirius either argued with him or sulked at him.

Oh I agree--and I am totally behind Lupin in changing that about himself. I just, like I said, have this thing about feeling like you can only real know your own motivations and not the other person's. Like, Sirius might never have characterized himself as sulking to get back into Remus' good graces as Remus describes him as doing--it feels like these two have a total communication breakdown. I can see why Remus feels like he needs to steel himself for a talk with Sirius, and maybe be doing what he did Sirius gave up all rights to be listened to with an open mind, but I just can't think any longterm relationship like this can be so clear cut.

I definitely don't think Lupin is manipulative--at least not on purpose (I guess everyone is manipulative by accident sometimes, just by being themselves). I just also think he's always been a very strong personality in his own right so I can't see him truly dominated by Sirius. I mean, even here it's just kind of funny that what's described is that they saw each other briefly and Sirius didn't say much and this is linked to Sirius having an ability to make Remus back down. I find myself wondering, "What did Sirius make of that encounter?" It's not that I think Sirius' account would be accurate where Remus' is not, just that I'd want to see his version.

black_dog @ September 6 2003, 02:36:37 UTC

I think the point of the parallel is to contrast the essentially trivial things they fought about in 1975, with the much graver issues that are dividing them over Sirius/Lucius. There's two nice insights here: first is the way people's styles of dealing with each other fall into a pattern, so that Remus has always susceptible to being charmed out of the judgments he makes against Sirius. Second is a play on the immaturity theme -- in a sense, Sirius is still back in 1975, not quite able to understand when the "pranks" turn deadly serious. Remus, I think, is reminding himself that it's no longer 1975, that the Lucius business is a matter of life and death, and that there's just an unbridgeable gulf between them if Sirius thinks the 1975 patterns will still work.

Anonymous @ September 5 2003, 12:10:05 UTC

!!!

childofatlantis @ September 5 2003, 10:11:37 UTC

bringing this up now in this way seems a pretty obvious step closer to Snape

Really? I read it more as a reminder to himself that it's not 1975, and that he can't just let himself fall back into those habits.

sistermagpie @ September 5 2003, 10:14:25 UTC

I thought the reminder was more for Sirius than for himself.

Anonymous @ September 5 2003, 12:28:12 UTC

also!!

dari_brit @ September 5 2003, 14:12:11 UTC

Magpie, the more that I read Remus's post, the more that it does have a bit of an exhibition edge to it. Sort of, "I'm posting, Sirius is sulking, just like he ALWAYS did when I was in the right." And then the end of the post reads a lot like, "I think I'll ask your old enemy to stick around for some deliberately ambiguous fun." Definitely a "screw you," especially with that perfect.

I think that it's a post designed to be interpreted as just a normal, chatty, reflective post by most, but to contain some barbs for those in the know. (I hate to genderize things, but it seems to me a very female thing to do!)

Love to Lupin/Black/Snape, you quintessentially dramatic/depressed/smoldering trio, you. ^_^

sistermagpie @ September 6 2003, 12:18:53 UTC

(I hate to genderize things, but it seems to me a very female thing to do!)

I get the same vibe. This is supposed to be a family, yet the dynamics make me think of a clique sometimes. If the real Marauders ran into this Remus I worry he'd find himself on the receiving end of a wedgie.

Anonymous @ September 8 2003, 04:47:19 UTC

hahaha. that's funny.

jacay @ September 5 2003, 14:07:57 UTC

I think I'll keep him around for a quick bit of chess. I'm not really very tired tonight and he looks surly. Perfect.

Being a mad Blupin shipper, I'd just like to say that this line sounds beautifully suggestive, especially once you get past the idea that the perfect part isn't sarcasm.

dari_brit @ September 5 2003, 19:22:50 UTC

Blupin or Snupin? If you're a Blupin-shipper, it could be a sad thing. But if you ship Snupin... perfect.

Personally, I am feeling the need to rewrite the "Oompa-Loompa Song" to go something like, "BLU-pin, SNU-pin, what will they DO? ALL the FAN-girls are WAIT-ing on YOU...."

"Mummy, *I* want a Blupin-Snupin of my very own!"

saffronlie @ September 6 2003, 00:22:33 UTC

:::laughs, hopes therealycats realises she's responsible for a whole new fandom terminology.:::

anoni @ September 6 2003, 04:12:04 UTC

::sqweebles madly:: Oh, please please post it when you're finished?

...now I'm thinking back to Snape's "I hate the children" in relation to "Down with the children", though he's a wizard and not a witch. ::dies::

jacay @ September 6 2003, 09:08:18 UTC

AAAAAAAAAAH!

Sorry. Snupin. *dies*

hobaggins @ September 6 2003, 08:17:38 UTC

Narcissa has replied to Lupin, changed her mind about their discussion, and is in what I'm willing to bet on is Salem.

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 11:39:21 UTC

changed her mind about their discussion

Ehh.. what? You lost me..

I want to know what Remus' news was, and why she was "both pleased and surprised" by it..??

hobaggins @ September 6 2003, 11:44:00 UTC

Hmm... I either read that comment wrong or it was changed. Most likely I fucked up the reading of it. EEeeekk sorry

jacay @ September 6 2003, 12:06:17 UTC

And now, probably to confuse us even more, Remus has replied.

And Narcissa replied to that while I was typing. What are they talking about?

hobaggins @ September 6 2003, 12:08:11 UTC

It sounds like she's telling him to do drugs. Or practise Buddhism.

#so fucking confused#

jacay @ September 6 2003, 12:11:20 UTC

Wow, when you put it that way....

tabiji @ September 6 2003, 12:13:46 UTC

Hmmm. It does sound like drugs...wonder if Sev brought back any souvenirs from San Francisco?!

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 12:16:58 UTC

But why would she be pleased about him taking drugs..?

*joins the confused train*

quixotic_sense @ September 6 2003, 12:21:47 UTC

*waves a ticket and boards the train*

I missed the clue bus.

I am so confused. Is N_A playing with our minds again? *sobs*

tabiji @ September 6 2003, 12:25:03 UTC

I wonder if the "euphoria" thing could mean she's encouraging him to fall in love again?

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 12:42:35 UTC

I'm beginning to think so, especially when conjoined with the "failure" bit in Remus' reply. After all, what has he felt a failure at in his life other than his one big relationship?

jacay @ September 6 2003, 12:46:33 UTC

And the failure part combined with Narcissa's most recent reply makes me think that Remus has given up on Sirius and is maybe going to try a relationship with Severus.

Rushing anything is usually not wise and I am in agreement that this in particular needs to be cultivated over time. It shall bear more fruit this way.

I could easily imagine Narcissa referring to Remus's relationship with Severus.

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 12:52:11 UTC

Yep, and add in his bit about I have learnt my lesson about being hasty and I think we may have us some budding Snupin. *nod nod*

dari_brit @ September 6 2003, 13:07:32 UTC

I may see the world through Blupin-Snupin colored glasses, but I think Remus is definitely asking Narcissa for love advice. Actually, I think that he may be planning an active courtship or a seduction. ^_^ I love the fact that potions_master points out that he can read the discussion, and that lupercus is absolutely incapable of subtlety. It really seems like Severus is just waiting to be asked. ^_^

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 13:14:22 UTC

Yes, I noticed Snape didn't utter a word of opposition to the conversation. *<3's him madly* :D

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 12:19:10 UTC

Fork incident? Say what?

You know, this confusion is making my head hurt. :p

luna_lg @ September 6 2003, 12:23:51 UTC

Maybe they're talking about that proverbial fork-in-the-road that appears at a point in everyone's lives. A person could come to a point of time where they can chose between two or more clearly laid-out paths to take. It can come sooner, or later, depending on the person itself.

I think both Remus and Narcissa are both facing that kind of choice in their lives...at least, when it comes to their significant others.

jacay @ September 6 2003, 12:25:56 UTC

And if they're talking about their significant others, can I assume that Remus's two paths would be Sirius and Severus?

*suspense* Which will he choose?

tabiji @ September 6 2003, 12:26:16 UTC

Maybe, like Harry, Remus has told Sirius to "fork off"!!!!

:P

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 12:48:07 UTC

Well, it sounded to me like he was speaking literally rather than metaphorically, since he called it the fork incident which implies a physical event.

Maybe he was on a date (*cough*Snape*cough*?) and had one of those horrifying amusing-yet-embarrassing moments?

dari_brit @ September 6 2003, 13:13:31 UTC

While I like your metaphorical interpretation, and think that it's an apt observation, I think it probably refers to a specific incident. Three that spring to mind:

Romantic: They both reach for the same fork, and their hands brush.

Palpable Hit: Severus (playfully) attempts to stab Remus with a fork in the course of intense philosophical discussion.

Freudian Slip: Remus is setting up for tea and, meaning to ask Severus if he'd like a fork, accidentally asks him if he'd like...well, you get the drift. But, encouragingly, Severus answers a droll yet emphatic "Yes."

jacay @ September 6 2003, 13:25:47 UTC

I like the Freudian Slip idea most. The other two just don't seem very likely--the first being something more embarrassing than anything else, and the second...I don't know, I just can't picture Severus being so playful as to pretend to stab Remus.

However, the third sounds exactly like something they would do.

hobaggins @ September 6 2003, 14:39:27 UTC

<3

Anonymous @ September 7 2003, 05:00:29 UTC

Didn't Snape stab Sirius with a fork during dinner last year after "accidentally" getting spaghetti dumped on him? And complain that it was difficult to get through the leather pants?

luna_lg @ September 7 2003, 06:27:53 UTC

Very good point...

Umm...link, please? ^^;

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 12:57:45 UTC

Omigod! O.O I think we've got us some Snupin confirmation! *fangirls and dies*

(Either that, or I took too much vicodin. ^^;)

jacay @ September 6 2003, 13:01:34 UTC

AaaAH.

*twitches*

Ilovethemsomuch.

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 13:08:30 UTC

Only NA could make me not only believe in Snupin, but ship it too. :D

dari_brit @ September 6 2003, 13:20:30 UTC

I love how they're (indirectly) setting up a little date in Hogsmeade. "I am leaving now." So sweet!

By the way, lupercus's "intense, isn't it?" and potions_master's "I am watching you" icons are KILLING me. *swoon*

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 13:24:06 UTC

Yes, I love how Snape just happened to need more ink when Remus mentioned he was thinking of going to town. ;D

I didn't even look at those.. fabulous!

dragynville @ September 6 2003, 13:31:42 UTC

Proper behaviour in times of [...] even courtship result in far more lasting situations than the more common, vulgar methods of those around us.

That's quite an admission coming from our darling potions_master! Practically a declaration.. 0.0

dari_brit @ September 6 2003, 13:42:57 UTC

I know-- I don't think lupercus needs to worry about being rebuffed too much here. ^_-

adrienneblack @ September 6 2003, 13:47:33 UTC

Wah, I love Remus/Severus interactions but still ship Sirius/Remus. This is killing me.

akutenshi2007 @ September 6 2003, 14:27:44 UTC

completely agreed. x_X

handful @ September 6 2003, 14:50:44 UTC

Am dead.

Seriously.

How sad must jadedsirius be?

childofatlantis @ September 6 2003, 16:16:38 UTC

Me too. :( Snape/Lupin is, admittedly, my guilty pleasure ship, and if anyone can do it in character it's the NA players - but Siiiiirius. I love NA Sirius/Remus too much to let go.

I also think that, as well as this break up has been played, it's been rather on the fast side. Barely a month ago, Remus was writing joyfully about Sirius's return. Four weeks on, he's moved out of his own house, found a flat, and appears to be moving rapidly toward another relationship. Yes, things can go cataclysmically wrong overnight. Yes, one needs to take hold of oneself and live independently. Yes, I know all about rebound. But... I don't know. It's my experience that people are more likely to cling to the sinking ship as long as they can than leap off at the first opportunity.

... the length of that paragraph suggests to me that I'm thinking too much about this again. ^_~

Anonymous @ September 6 2003, 17:27:15 UTC

agreed, though i think the ship has actually been sinking a lot longer than anybody really thought. :-(

and i don't think lupin is moving rapidly toward anything because he wouldn't be talking about it with narcissa the way he is. he's still recovering from losing sirius i think, but this (Snape) could be an opportunity i don't think he wants to lose in the meantime. it's such a hard situation.

wah.

luna_lg @ September 7 2003, 06:29:50 UTC

Quite the choice, ne?

adolfa @ September 6 2003, 17:34:55 UTC

KSAJGGHEWHTPPTFFTTTHHHPPPPPPPPPPPPPT

Narcissa's icon keywords quote The Crucible.

SQUEEAGE OVERLOAD MUST NOT MALFUNCTION.

dari_brit @ September 6 2003, 19:05:23 UTC

I know....long live the Arthur Miller-age! If you are a fan, "Echoes down the Corridor" is a collection of his smaller writings and musings.

And I love the Chicago icon!

adolfa @ September 6 2003, 19:14:33 UTC

Hrm. Now, the big question... is this just idle quoting or does it have TEH DEEPER MEANING? omg the metaphors...


Thanks about the icon, by the way. :D

therealycats @ September 6 2003, 19:51:24 UTC BLUPIN!/Snupin

Hi! saffronlie just messaged me telling me that I should copyright these terms as they are being used a lot so I'm doing that...because it's oh-so-official when you say it on an RPG fan community! :D

Other than that...I miss Snuffles :( *sniff*

I didn't put that in an already existing thread because Snupin/Blupin was used in a few places...and I wanted to say that I missed Snuffles. Waaaaaaah. Please excuse my randomness :D

handful @ September 6 2003, 20:07:28 UTC

Anyone else notice that jadedsirius took down all his icons?

WIBBLE!