hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 00:01:50 UTC

OMG, I hate Ron Weasley. I don't like Ron Weasley. I don't. I don't.. I don't.. OMG RON WEASLEY MARRY ME. I LOVE YOU SO MUCH. PLZ. <33333333333333333333333

khesanh @ November 22 2003, 00:03:28 UTC

HAHAHA!
If I dress up as Ron can I have the ring?

I love his "Bed! Goodnight!" at the end.

zorb @ November 22 2003, 01:41:41 UTC

Personally, I am in love with "dumbarse stupid son of a sushi".

I think someone needs to make a sushi!Lucius icon now.

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 05:13:01 UTC

I love his "Bed! Goodnight!" at the end.

What do you suppose it means? Is he ordering Draco off to bed with Harry to make up?

sistermagpie @ November 22 2003, 08:27:24 UTC

I think he's being typical, practical Ron. Fighting over now, because it's time for bed. I can imagine him learning that growing up with Molly. Somebody would be yelling at someone else and then she'd come in and say, "Right, time for bed. You can finish the fight in the morning."

<3 Ron and ps! (You go little Too-good-for-the-Cannons-Dragon!)

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 11:11:00 UTC

Thinking more about it, I think maybe he's just decided to cut off the argument because he's said all he had to say.

I love, to death, his "someone else's someone" argument just above, which is classic Ron and classic Ron's-take-on-Draco. He's saying, in effect, you suck as a boyfriend, what kind of boyfriend does something so hurtful to their boyfriend? I like how closely he flirts with overtness here (indirectly, through the very absurdity of the effort at "cover") and I also like how Draco refuses to get sidetracked into a "you know what I mean" discussion -- maybe Draco, too, is getting tired of the deception.

There's a couple of things that puzzle me about this whole exchange -- in fact, about the whole incident that underlies it.

I thought at first that the invitation to join the Cannons was a sham, a joke. There certainly are aspects of a typical PS wild story in the reported conversation with Jenkins, with its grotesque exaggeration and arch and funny mis-characterizations. But I think, after the first reaction, that it's really meant to have really happened within the world of the game -- Draco did go off on a mysterious errand last Saturday, and Narcissa takes him seriously, and Ron seems to have come around from thinking PS was "lying." And Viktor Krum did play for the Bulgarian team while still in school, so it's at least possible.

Why, then, did Draco do it? It's obviously significant that the Cannons are Harry's favorite team. And Draco spent a whole day, and probably hurt his knee, on this particular piece of performance art, which means he took it pretty seriously. I don't think he was doing it to hurt Harry, because I have to disagree with Ron that it would hurt Harry. Ron might still be fantasizing about playing professional quidditch but I think Draco and Harry both have wider ambitions than that. What I think it's about is that it was a wildly over the top inside joke played out for Harry's benefit -- and also to tweak Ron. It puts their beloved Cannons into perspective, and teases H and R with the possibility that they might have to fanboy Draco to keep up their Cannons-fetish. And it has a hint of the "dance of effortless fucking superiority" to it, though Harry is not likely to be intimidated by that -- if anything, Harry is likely to find it empowering when he looks at his own future, since he's a better Seeker than Draco.

If I were Harry I think I would be blown away, absolutely delighted, by Draco's audacity, and his follow-through, and the fact that the joke was for my benefit. Maybe someone's being a good someone else's someone after all, nudging Harry out of a funk, out of a rut, helping him look to the future and feel more confident. If Harry knew about this, is it a coincidence that he has suddenly become more socially visible and talkative this week?

But if he didn't know, will his reaction really be positive? For all Ron's tendency to overreact, I tend to viscerally trust his instincts about how people feel. So I don't know if Ron is being overprotective, or Harry is feeling more fragile than Draco realizes, maybe because of Remus' departure, and won't appreciate the joke.

As always, we'll have to wait and see.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 12:09:36 UTC

My first instinct when I read Draco's post was to be nervous. My first thought was "Draco feels the need to prove to himself (and to the school), yet again that he is an equal match now for Harry as a Seeker." Whether or not he is an equal Seeker is up for debate of course, but most likely Draco did catch the Snitch in their last match. And of course he did last year, as well. Draco is certainly a very good Seeker, whether or not he is Harry's match. And yet, I always get the feeling like he needs to say it over and over again. "I am a superior Seeker." Maybe just because no one is saying it for him.

Everyone will always talk about Harry being the youngest Seeker in the century no matter how many wins Draco has under his belt. Draco is still defending his appointment as Seeker as a Second Year. I don't know if it was ever said in NA!canon whether or not Draco bought himself onto the team, but even if he did, Draco is clearly a good enough Seeker at this point to be getting credit for it now.

I think it's interesting to note that Draco didn't brag about his win last week at all. Why is that? I mean it could go any of several ways. Maybe he cheated, and he didn't feel like being called on that in front of his parents. Maybe he felt a sincere win was enough and he and Harry had a celebration, and didn't feel the need to brag. Maybe he just didn't want to rub it in Harry's face. I have no idea.

Which brings me back to his invitation to join the Cannons. I took it from everyone's reactions that it was fact, and not a hoax. And I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Draco might be Seeker enough for a professional team. Harry was a formidable Seeker since he began playing, and Draco is if not equal, an extremely fierce match. Especially since as Draco said the Cannon's haven't been able to keep a Seeker this year.

Now while the idea of this being an elaborate joke for Harry's benefit would be unbelievable, I don't think Harry had any idea. Maybe it would be just the thing to bring him out of his depression, and Draco said he was definitely not taking the position so it isn't like there is actually substance to fight over..... I don't know. Reading Draco's responses sort of felt like he was second guessing himself, even though he wouldn't admit it.

His "alarmed yet composed" icon when first responding to Ron... Draco has been using that icon a lot, but all the same, I definitely don't think Harry had the slightest clue he was going to use.

Ahm, but in arguing against myself, I found it interesting too that Draco used, "I suppose this means I won't be getting my very own Chudley doodle," as a response. I think that because he's able to joke about a symbol of Ron and Harry's friendship that he's a lot more secure in his relationship. I don't know. I give up. *pulls out hair*

Anonymous @ November 22 2003, 12:42:13 UTC

Maybe he felt a sincere win was enough and he and Harry had a celebration, and didn't feel the need to brag. Maybe he just didn't want to rub it in Harry's face. I have no idea.

It was a Slytherin/Hufflepuff match, not Slytherin/Gryffindor.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 12:43:35 UTC

*FAILS*

Anonymous @ November 22 2003, 16:15:42 UTC

Just trying to help! :D

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 12:56:12 UTC

My first thought was "Draco feels the need to prove to himself (and to the school), yet again that he is an equal match now for Harry as a Seeker."

There was a thread last year -- I tried to find it and link to it but was lazy and gave up -- where Harry is consoling Susan Bones for a Hufflepuff loss to Slytherin, and he says what a shame it is that they could all play their hearts out and still lose "because the other Seeker is so good." I remember Draco just grabbed on to that compliment from Harry and was really being insufferable about it in his journal for days. So yeah, I think he craves respect as a Seeker, but I also think he's got it -- from Harry in particular, where it counts the most. I agree with you that he just doesn't care about last week's win, but when he's playing against Harry, he gets all worked up.

So I agree that applying for the Cannons was partly about showing off, but I wonder if it's entirely that. I mean, we know he despises the Cannons, not just for their lack of skills but for their attitude. (How funny is it that the invitation repeats the Cannons' ridiculous motto: "Let's cross our fingers and hope for the best.") In his post last Saturday, PS talked about competing for a privelige that "no one else in this castle has the ability even to attempt," which is obviously a poke at Harry -- not a dig, because Harry clearly does have the ability to attempt it, but a provocation, a push for Harry to get moving, maybe. In fact, by refusing the position, isn't PS suggesting that Harry, as at least his equal as a Seeker, could probably have it for the asking?

Because it's the Cannons, this has got to be in some sense about Harry. There's so much here, it's sort of fun to wade through it all. It's about the quidditch rivalry, it's maybe about getting past the rivalry (think of the hurt knee -- could Draco really play professionally? -- it's about the future, it's about injecting himself into the Harry-Ron bond. I love the idea of PS with his own carroty Cannons icon, but more for the ridiculousness (or the provocativeness) of the idea than for actually seeing it, if that makes sense.

A couple of people have suggested, like you, that Draco seems to hesitate, rethink his joke, in the middle of his conversation with Ron. I'm not sure I see that, I think he just is frustrated that Ron is, once again, sucking the fun out of things by being too earnest. But if you want to cite a specific comment, that would be a really interesting point. On the other hand, if this really is a good joke between Draco and Harry, I wonder why Harry hasn't commented yet. I admit that makes me a little nervous about my theory here.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 13:21:13 UTC

It's the first memory under "Adoration for Me." A Quote from Potter". [note that PS changed his icons dating back to then....]

I would love it if Draco was just trying to rouse Harry to action. And that is an excellent point about Draco's knee, there is no way Draco would be able to go professional (Although I'm shocked that Wizards can't heal knee injuries.....) if that keeps up.

The idea of Draco with a carrot-y icon is fantastic, as you said, more for the idea of it than the actuality, which would definitely be a step over the edge.

Yes, that was my main thought, that Harry didn't respond at all. And Draco first made that community post, and then, he made a private post to MAKE SURE he had everyone's attention. And sure Harry was distracted by Lupin leaving, but with all his joking about hot dates, and then staying in and sleeping, I'm sure PS maybe did feel a little left out. If he really did go through all the effort of pulling off this hysterical over the top joke for Harry's benefit and Harry didn't even acknowledge it, at least publicly.

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 18:49:55 UTC

I would love it if Draco was just trying to rouse Harry to action.

Another spin on this: picture PS and Harry lying around talking about the future, since this is their last year. Harry is all, "I don't know, maybe I'll try out for the Cannons or something," and Draco just thinks that's ridiculously lame, that he's got to be kidding. So in one gesture, here, PS shows that this ambition is not a particular stretch, suggests that it's not worth having, and creates a situation where Harry will probably never do it now because he'd never accept Draco's scraps, something Draco rejected. From Ron's perspective, he's ruined Harry's cherished dream (his timewasting daydream?), but from Draco's perspective, he's pushed Harry on to higher things.

Eh? Eh? I don't know.

there is no way Draco would be able to go professional (Although I'm shocked that Wizards can't heal knee injuries.....) if that keeps up.

You know, call me paranoid, but doesn't this put a suspicious spin on Lucius' medical intervention? We know that when Draco inherited Cannes, he got a bit more defiant of his father because he could envision himself as no longer dependent. But the actual possession of his grandmother's money is still three years away. Could Lucius stoop so low as to interfere (perhaps reversibly) with Draco's ability to make his own money as a quidditch player, perhaps out of fear that this would help PS reject the DE's (and possibly turn on his father)?

And sure Harry was distracted by Lupin leaving, but with all his joking about hot dates, and then staying in and sleeping, I'm sure PS maybe did feel a little left out.

Do we know for sure he was "staying in and sleeping?" As always, it's hard to know what to make of anything without having Harry's perspective. Three remarks in the Remus/Harry exchange struck me, though:

I assume that Remus would know about an H/D relationship, but when Harry talks about hot dates, Remus says, "you wouldn't hold out on your old professor, would you?" which suggests he's not sure who Harry means. Or maybe he knows all too well about the H/D and its limits, and is teasing Harry over the "hot dates" pretense.

Later, Remus teases Harry for being a stud, having dates beating down his door, and when Harry says he wouldn't want that, there's some byplay about whether they're talking about damaging the door, or something else. The "something else" suggests that Harry is putting a value on sexual restraint right now.

Finally, when Remus reminds him about things he "asked him to look after," he adds, "you'll be fine, both of you." I'm sure this means Sirius, but it took me a while to drop the hope that it referred to PS. It still seems like an odd remark given how hostile Harry is feeling toward Sirius right now.

*Sigh* Puzzles within puzzles.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 19:32:22 UTC

This icon Harry uses, when he says he still has all those dates lined up. That's the icon Draco said was his favorite in the Q&A, if I'm not mistaken. I always note when Harry switches icons, even though I've no idea if it means anything/what it means.

Also: Yes, Harry did just say that he should go to bed, he didn't saying about actually doing that. We haven't heard much this year about Harry and Draco's sleeping habits. I wonder if they're still wandering at odd hours.......

Later, Remus teases Harry for being a stud, having dates beating down his door, and when Harry says he wouldn't want that, there's some byplay about whether they're talking about damaging the door, or something else. The "something else" suggests that Harry is putting a value on sexual restraint right now.

I don't see how that translates into "a value on sexual restraint." I sort of saw it just in regards to time? That they're [he isn't] not forcing their [his] time on Harry when he doesn't want them there.

...

Now would be an excellent time, actually to bring up the battle that raged back a few months ago during the Q&A. Harry has a boyfriend. What if it wasn't Draco. Maybe he does mean multiple dates.

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 19:45:59 UTC

Nice catch on the icon -- I don't notice icons enough.

That they're [he isn't] not forcing their [his] time on Harry when he doesn't want them there.

Oh I like that. I was playing off the "stud" remark too narrowly -- really anything that would point to two people taking each other seriously, rather than "playing the field" and/or banging down doors, would work as well. So Harry is giving his Friday to Remus because it's his last day, and PS (or whoever) is respecting that and leaving him alone for the night.

I wondered about the "other boyfriend" thing, too, but I've never been able to see it. There's no one else that there's any evidence for, and there's too much (their own banter, other people's behavior) that converges on the idea that H/D is happening but is discreet.

Not that they don't have issues. My guess, and it's a pure guess, is that there's stuff Draco won't do because it would be over some line that he draws, and I suspect they are not together continuously, but that there are extended periods when nothing is going on but they then get back together. All of which Harry has to roll with. In a way, Remus' remark about "holding out" might be a way of saying "Don't kid me, I know only too well how monogamous you are."

But speculating on the nature of what's going on between H and D is a bottomless, bottomless pit . . .

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 20:22:22 UTC

there's too much (their own banter, other people's behavior) that converges on the idea that H/D is happening but is discreet.

Yes. I suppose your right. [haha. And I say that like it doesn't warm my little fangirling heart] There were those entries like, this, that seemed to scream out, "OMG, SEX."

hermione_like @ November 22 2003, 20:19:04 UTC

Now would be an excellent time, actually to bring up the battle that raged back a few months ago during the Q&A. Harry has a boyfriend. What if it wasn't Draco. Maybe he does mean multiple dates.

I missed the Q&As when they happened so I am totally O_Oing right now. Does Harry have a boyfriend? Because I haven't heard anything else about that.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 20:32:03 UTC

Harry and Draco Q&A.

bookofjude's extremely helpful index is found here.

kat99999 had a really helpful transcription of Harry&Draco's Q&A.... [it's extremely overwhelming] but it apprears to be locked, now. Maybe if someone asks her nicely she'll open it. o.O

Remus' Q&A, Arthur's, Narcissa's, Mr Malfoy's, Snape's, Ernie's!!, Neville's, Sirius', Ron's, Pansy's, and, the Great M.B.'s

hermione_like @ November 22 2003, 20:37:54 UTC

Whoa. Dude, you rock. Thanks for all of that. :D

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 20:40:20 UTC

Oh, a note. I forget where it was said, but the things we learn in the Q&A.. and the things other players know in the Q&A, aren't necessarily known in the game. For example, Lucius doesn't know any of the stuff Draco told.

Ahm, there was a post I made that just has the links to the H/D in NrAged, and, ahm, apparently I never memorized it. I = an idiot. When I find it, I'll link....

intern_alley @ November 22 2003, 20:51:14 UTC

Man, I should just give someone the nraged password and let whoever feels like categorising nraged posts into memories do so.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 21:16:39 UTC

Yes, you should.

intern_alley @ November 22 2003, 21:22:05 UTC

*scribbles onto to-do list*

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 20:45:00 UTC

HAHA! I do rock. My thread finding skills are like whoa. H/D in tha Q&A.

I seriously wish NA was nicely published in book format so I could reread everything. With friendspages stopping after two weeks ago, it's tres difficult to go back in time and see the whole picture.

hinted @ November 22 2003, 23:04:49 UTC

I second this.

summate @ November 22 2003, 23:41:15 UTC

You're hot.

hinted @ November 22 2003, 23:46:11 UTC

So're you.

sistermagpie @ November 22 2003, 17:56:30 UTC

Go ps. First Minister of Magic and now Cannons Seeker.:-)

I'm fascinated by this as well. Harry's been so invisible of late except for what I think of as Lupercus!Harry I honestly have no clue where he is as a character beyond the most generous things. Obviously the Cannons=Harry and Ron so Draco couldn't be trying out for them without knowing this is making a point to Harry.

Thinking of this first just from ps' perspective (since I think this is a big year for all the kids individually, as it's their last) I tend to think ps wouldn't tell Harry about the try-outs because he might not have made the team and I doubt he'd want Harry to know he didn't make it if that happened. Harry may have known about the tryouts from QW and it just didn't enter his mind to go himself, but I can imagine ps not wanting to give him the suggestion and thus have to face Harry in try-outs. No matter how well he did, let's face it, the team would probably jump at the chance to hire Harry Potter even if he weren't a great Seeker. Anyway, I hope ps did this all on his own, as he got himself to the MoM, played his little heart out, strained his badly-healed knee (thanks in part to the Malfoy's private physician) and got the offer. Even if he didn't buy his way onto the Slytherin team that's something that would always haunt him. I can definitely see him wanting to do this for himself, prove that he could do it. To go to the trouble of asking Flitwick instead of Snape for a pass suggests to me this was very important to him personally and that's why he cut himself off from his usual sources of encouragement/pressure. Presumably he'd know the try-out went well after it was over, yet he still restrained himself from saying so until he got the offer. Perhaps he posted his hint in the flush of triumph after the try-out.

If he does feel like Ron is messing him up by being too Ron (the way Ron always comes at Draco from an angle he doesn't expect--they just never understand each other) it's not because he's ruining a joke between him and Harry but that Ron is turning something he did for himself into another attack on Harry. I mean, if Draco did just do this thing, he'd be pretty annoyed to have Ron say to him this is something he should have handed to Harry. He doesn't lose his temper too much over it, though, and that may be because for once things worked out for him. Even if he didn't get the kind of fake praise he claims to have gotten, or think so little of the Cannons as he claims, he got offered a space on a professional Quidditch team. To me that means more than just the idea that he plays well, but that he could land a job in the adult world. Even if Harry got offered a place now it would be one that Draco turned down.

Anonymous @ November 22 2003, 18:23:57 UTC

I tend to think ps wouldn't tell Harry about the try-outs because he might not have made the team and I doubt he'd want Harry to know he didn't make it if that happened.



(which is not to say that the rest of this is wrong, but that I am going, hooray! am just not starring any of rest so as to not halt conversation.)

sistermagpie @ November 22 2003, 18:42:11 UTC

I know that's what I'd do if I were ps.:-D *waves flag of support*

And now for my typo corrections:

I honestly have no clue where he is as a character beyond the most generous things.

Erm, that should read "beyond the most GENERAL things." Though Harry is very generous, I'm sure.

If he does feel like Ron is messing him up by being too Ron (the way Ron always comes at Draco from an angle he doesn't expect--they just never understand each other) it's not because he's ruining a joke between him and Harry but that Ron is turning something he did for himself into another attack on Harry.

That should have a "maybe" or "perhaps" in their somewhere--I have no idea if this is correct or not!

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 19:07:24 UTC

First Minister of Magic and now Cannons Seeker.:-)

Exactly! But it's also interesting that the parallel fails, for the reasons you mention below. The MoM thing was a fantasy, and actually just a little bit sad. But this time he really, really got an invitation to be Cannons Seeker. The difference -- both in the conception and the result -- is a nice marker for Draco growing up.

I tend to think ps wouldn't tell Harry about the try-outs because he might not have made the team and I doubt he'd want Harry to know he didn't make it if that happened.

OK, I find your points on this completely persuasive. The joke would be ruined if he failed to make the team. But does that refute the idea that he did it (at least in part) for the reasons I speculated on -- for Harry, to provoke Harry and make him laugh and get him off center? Your way, he could spring a fait accompli on Harry, with even greater impact.

Random thought: might they actually have gone down together, and Draco beat Harry? I see no evidence for this at all, and it contradicts everything else I've said, but it's worth marking out the possibility.

he cut himself off from his usual sources of encouragement/pressure

This is a really interesting point, and maybe pushes the pendulum back toward it being more about Draco. It really did take guts to do this, in the way he did it. And if it weren't the Cannons, I could see it (playing off your earlier point) being Draco's own answer to the MoM embarassment, something Draco needed to do for his own purposes and to demonstrate his own maturity. But the fact that it's the Cannons, specifically, makes me continue to feel that this is somehow substantially about Harry, too.

Ron is turning something he did for himself into another attack on Harry. I mean, if Draco did just do this thing, he'd be pretty annoyed to have Ron say to him this is something he should have handed to Harry

Interesting. I mean this is plausible on its own, but I again can't get over the fact that it's the Cannons, and PS must have known what that meant to Harry. Do you think he could really be as oblivious as Ron accuses him of being? The argument really turns on whether or not this actually hurts Harry's feelings, and whether Draco knew it would or should have known it. I lean the other way because I just don't think PS would play it that way, but there's no way of knowing for sure until Harry speaks up.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 19:12:22 UTC

Interesting. I mean this is plausible on its own, but I again can't get over the fact that it's the Cannons, and PS must have known what that meant to Harry.

At the same time, the Cannons have been looking, repeatedly, their ads all over Witch Weekly. How often do the other teams have try-outs. There is always the possibility that even though PS know what this would mean re: Harry&Ron, there was just him wanting to score with a professional Qudditch team. *gose to reread Lupin&Harry thread*

fourscore @ November 22 2003, 19:14:34 UTC

I agree: it's the middle of the season, and the Cannons have been having notorious troubles. I don't think many teams would be looking for players. In fact before PS posted his second entry, I was really really curious as to why the Cannons would be looking for a Seeker in the middle of the season, but I'd forgotten their Seeker troubles.

sistermagpie @ November 22 2003, 20:53:42 UTC

It's definitely Harry-connected if it's the Cannons, and Ron too. (Here I must add that I thought the funniest line was ps asking if this meant he wouldn't be getting his own Chudley doodle.)

I'm not sure whether this would hurt Harry's feelings or not. I feel like Harry's just so confident about his Quidditch abilities he'd be more likely to be not threatened at all. Unless he really wanted to play for Chudley, but I'm not sure he does.

Also, just because Draco is Harry's friend now doesn't mean he doesn't still want to beat him into the ground.;-) He's suffered many a humiliation at Harry's hands so it may just be a plus that the team that's offering tryouts is Harry's beloved Cannons. If he was looking through QW and secretly thinking, "Hey, what if I became the Seeker?" I suspect the look on Potter's face would be a plus. He'd probably resent the idea that he shouldn't try out because this was "Potter's team." I wonder if Harry is only responding to this in person or if he will post on the lj.

It's hard to tell just what effect he thought it would have not knowing exactly what Harry's been doing lately. It they've been spending time together ps would have to have been actively keeping a secret. But maybe Harry's been pre-occupied and wouldn't have noticed Draco going off anyway, thus Draco posted his pre-announcement to get Harry's attention. It's tough because we only see what people actually post and I try to not to assume that if people aren't posting to each other they're not talking to each other, but I find myself feeling like characters have drifted apart just because I'm not seeing them talk. We do know they've spent time together--it's not like they've not spoken at all.

black_dog @ November 23 2003, 11:30:25 UTC

OK on principle I'm not willing to retain the same theory for more than 24 hours, so I'm more and more inclined to look at this as being primarily about Draco, and to think about why it would also be partly a deliberate poke at Harry.

I'm trying to figure out how close PS and JH are right now, and I had assumed things were going on well because of the three way banter with PS, JH and MB on Harry's recent post. But then I was struck by a comment in last Saturday's post by PS -- that he was bored because he had nothing to do on weekends. Might that not be a complaint that Harry has been neglecting him? And the Cannons stunt might have been a way (in part) of seeking Harry's attention.

Beyond that, I can see it more and more as something Draco just wanted to do for his own reasons; and it's the Cannons less because of Harry and Ron and more because, as people have pointed, they're the only ones recruiting mid-season. Also, the fact that he doesn't respect the Cannons may make the whole thing less intimidating. The significance of the Cannons for Harry and Ron would then just be gravy to PS -- it's revenge for neglect, it's a particularly satisfying way to show them up.

I'm also thinking more and more about the difference between the Cannons adventure and Draco's previous adventures. I think it's significant that he tells the story in the same tone he used for his time in the theatre, or the zombie puffskein incident, or some of his other tall tales. Because partly, he puts it in the same category -- I think it started off as perhaps the same kind of whimsical adventure. And maybe it frightened Draco a bit that he succeeded, that it became more than a comfortable fantasy for him.

After all, he's really obnoxious about the way he turns down the Cannons, and this might be ordinary PS arrogance, but it's also not very smart in a real-life sense, as a professional move. I sense his rudeness (as opposed to politely declining the offer) is not something Narcissa, and perhaps even Lucius, would approve of or consider wise. So there's sort of this endearing childlike anxiety, and retreat from responsibility, that accompanies a startlingly adult success. I think it's rattled him a little bit to discover his own powers here, and it will make him think.

Well, a new day, another .02. I toss it in the pot for what it's worth.

sistermagpie @ November 23 2003, 12:17:07 UTC

Though just another consideration--Draco may have been much more polite about the way he turned them down than the way he's claiming to be here. Obviously he cared enough about this to keep it a big secret, probably practicing in secret as well, and go to Flitwick for a pass. (It's not like Snape would have told, but I think he wanted to keep from Snape from knowing about any potential failure as well.)We know he'd have anxiety about it that he'd deny. So I can't imagine when he was really there surrounded by professional Quidditch players he wasn't a bit starstruck even if it was the Cannons. I'm thinking of the young Draco in canon putting on shows for older Slytherins--I think away from Hogwarts he might have been simply eager for these professional players to think he was cool and thus tried to play cool and professional when he turned them down. Back at Hogwarts he can go on however he likes but for all we know ps at the tryouts was a Very Good Boy, enthusiastic and eager. I think he was practically bursting when Jenkins sat next to him and talked to him. Maybe that's another reason for him to play up his disdain in his post, because he knows how excited he really is/was...?

In fact, seeing that it went so well, his later ramblings may be his version of a victory dance, and perhaps a nice way of gleefully sticking his tongue out at Harry and Ron as well.

black_dog @ November 23 2003, 12:29:49 UTC

Hmmm, I'm assuming his LJ posts are on the public record, or, if that's not strictly true, liable to being copied and forwarded by people who are not well-disposed to Draco (for example, Fred). So I still think he's taking a chance by being so disdainful of the Cannons in his posts, even if that's meant to be only a private pose for his Hogwarts friends.

Do you get any "fear of success" vibe from Draco, here? It's not intuitively obvious -- clearly at one level he's a little bit manic, he's bursting with pride and boasting about it all over the place. But I sense something fishy in the way he distances himself from the offer, ridicules it, insists he never took it seriously. It's got to really rattle him that one of his fantasies popped out of the box and became real, perhaps before he was ready for that.

sistermagpie @ November 23 2003, 12:46:16 UTC

I did think about this getting back to them, definitely. (Though being that they're wizards it's not like forwarding is an immediate concern.) If he really was considering a career in Quidditch this would be an incredibly stupid move but not OOC for ps--and not one that would necessarily hurt him if he was a good player. Swaggering isn't something completely unknown to athletes, I'd expect.:-)

I also can definitely see Draco being freaked out by his own success and in no way ready to really be a professional Quidditch player, absolutely. Really, he's taken the safest way out by getting on the team and turning them down. He can always now talk about how much better the team would do if he'd just accepted their offer without having to get up there on his broom and have other fans criticize him!

This does make me wonder, though, what ps wants to do with his life after Hogwarts. I hope he really is wanting to make a plan and I can't see Quidditch being it. MoM and Professional Seeker are very standard kid-fantasy jobs (if you're a wizard, of course) but it seems like ps needs something more unique and less regimented, imo.

black_dog @ November 24 2003, 08:21:53 UTC

Oh, the poor w00bies!

Harry's mildly hurt that Draco didn't tell him about this. Draco's more seriously hurt that Harry didn't make the effort to appreciate his big moment. "I sat around in the library for an hour."

I'm a little bit blown away by that business about "going around the school and cutting your face out of every photograph in the castle." Have we ever seen Draco so vulnerable to Harry, and so willing to be public about it?

This could be a moment for them.

sistermagpie @ November 24 2003, 15:42:32 UTC

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got all "awwwww" at this exchange. To me, Draco's not telling Harry makes perfect sense because he didn't want to fail in front of him. So when Harry said it would have been more fun to try out together I thought yeah, it would be fun for Harry, but not for ps who's more insecure.

What's kind of interesting is that ps seems to drop it. I wonder if he's now feeling embarrassed about his need to do this in secret and hoping Harry doesn't figure out why. If so that's kind of interesting, because it would suggest for once Harry hasn't caught on to an insecurity of ps.' He's not just being the patient j_h who listens to him rant and says "okay" because he sees his vulnerability. I also wonder if the whole thing's just been ruined because it didn't have the effect he wanted.

It seems that Harry and Draco were supposed to meet or that he was expecting him in the library and Harry missed it because he ran home to DW. He sounds pretty down and vulnerable to me in his first post, apologetic about standing ps up. It almost felt like he couldn't muster the enthusiasm to congratulate ps believeably but hoped to offer something by saying he wasn't mad (knowing Draco had to deal with Ron).

Draco ignores Harry's reference to his tryouts completely and focuses on Harry ditching him without a word. He's very short and to the point, which is usually not a good sign with ps.

Harry sounds really sad to me when he's asking ps to meet him. When I read his, "Do you want me to just go then?" it didn't seem like the way he was teasing ps the way he sometimes does, like forcing him to come out and say what he really wants. It sounded to me like he really wanted to see him but felt like this was one of those rare instances when ps had reason to not want to see him.

I read ps' last post as sort of an attempt at a couple of things that had some real emotion coming through it. Like, this kind of over-the-top threat for what he would do to someone who's kept him waiting five minutes isn't out of the ordinary for ps, but it did feel like he was sort of being serious about letting Harry know how angry it made him. At the same time, though, I wondered if the sudden verbosity and wild imagery was a way of showing Harry he was forgiven. Harry's "Probably I'd just be impressed by the effort," almost seemed a little relieved to me.

What amazes me is that I'm getting all this emotion from the words at all. How do these ending posts of these two, which are on the surface so similar to things they've said before, manage to come across so differently than they usually do? ::sigh:: So impressed.

This could be a moment for them.

It seems like one, doesn't it? Harry and Sirius spent time together last night too. It's hard to know what's been going on with Harry lately, but I wonder if he's re-thinking some things. He's been actively avoiding Sirius, it seems. Despite how hurt ps does sound about being stood up he avoids any insults about Sirius and doesn't shove the Cannons thing in Harry's face. Harry had said in the Q&A that Draco didn't like to talk about serious things...I wonder if that's changing or will change.

Anonymous @ November 24 2003, 15:59:30 UTC

It seems that Harry and Draco were supposed to meet or that he was expecting him in the library and Harry missed it because he ran home to DW. He sounds pretty down and vulnerable to me in his first post, apologetic about standing ps up. It almost felt like he couldn't muster the enthusiasm to congratulate ps believeably but hoped to offer something by saying he wasn't mad (knowing Draco had to deal with Ron).



(Which again is not to say that anything else is wrong but that I am just clarifying that yes, Draco was stood up. I love watching these conversations between you and b_d so I shall now return to my silent stalking of this one.)

black_dog @ November 24 2003, 17:29:26 UTC

Interesting read -- you've taken some positions I was uncertain about, and am still thinking through.

I agree that Harry started out oblivious -- he's "not mad," and only formally sorry for missing the meeting. But I was inclined to think that he picked up quickly on at least the general tenor of Draco's feelings. Draco's abrupt reply just refuses to acknowledge the "not mad" bit, and I think that makes Harry realize how far off the point he is on that issue. So Harry's second apology is more a general apology for not being there, and it sounds more sincere.

So next Harry probes to see how angry Draco really is -- Can they paper it over by getting together now? Can he lighten up the situation with a joke about food? Should they walk to class together? Does Draco want him to go away for now and leave him alone?

And I think the poignance of Draco's reply, which you really put your finger on, is that Draco is very angry at Harry but doesn't want him to go away. He's not angry in a way that makes him want to affirm his autonomy from Harry, he's angry about Harry's distance, and lets him know he wants him closer. And given who Draco is, and everything about his impossible pride, it must be just a wrenching thing for PS to admit, to someone who has hurt him, that that person has the power to hurt him, and that he hopes that person will comfort him instead.

I do think Harry gets this, which is a significant thing for him as well. I think his last comment, about being impressed, is Harry's way of telling PS that he isn't oblivious to him, that he always notices what PS does. And his "Okay" is of course their special word, a very charged word, that Harry uses when they've made some kind of emotional connection. I mean, it sounds to me like Harry is on his way over.

I've been thinking more about the reaction to Draco's announcement. It was a triumph, after all, and it's really a cruel stroke that he had literally no one to share it with; no one cared. I guess his mother praised him, which is a pretty low baseline, but she was easily distracted by a remark about her hair. His father got around to praising him a day or two later. But there's nothing from Millicent, or Pansy. Nothing from Seamus. So even his close friends are maybe overcome by envy -- that's the best hypothesis I can come up with. No formal congratulations from Snape, who may be petty enough to be peeved about Flitwick. Vague abuse from Ernie and Lisa, and explicit abuse from Ron. Silence from Harry, who may be the one person strong enough not to have his feelings distorted by envy.

If PS had an epiphany last spring when Colin called him essentially friendless, what must he have been feeling this time?

In a way, the fact that Harry was preoccupied with Remus' departure makes this a perfect setup for a major new step in their friendship. Because it gives PS a chance to feel the vacancy of having no one care, but it also provides an excuse for J_H's behavior that should permit a reconciliation.

I can see PS coming out of all this with a humbling realization of how nice it would be to have someone of his own, who was dedicated to caring for him, in a relationship he wasn't afraid to acknowledge. And I kind of think Harry is feeling the same thing, as he gets bounced around between Remus and Sirius. So maybe they're ready for a breakthrough, here.

sistermagpie @ November 24 2003, 18:27:47 UTC

Ah! You've put your finger on the vague loneliness this whole situation has made me feel. Here Draco did this huge thing that was about something as general as Quidditch and there wasn't a major response. Especially since it's the Cannons--like what, you're not interested in the Cannons anymore either? This made me think about the times he has gotten major responses and the first thing I came up with was his birthday story about Harry which was, of course, about Harry. Ron at least gave a somewhat expected reaction. It's not like ps wouldn't know he'd be appalled. What would Ron do with Malfoy the Cannons Seeker?? I love how Ron keeps trying to enforce the laws of the universe as he sees them.

In a way, the fact that Harry was preoccupied with Remus' departure makes this a perfect setup for a major new step in their friendship. Because it gives PS a chance to feel the vacancy of having no one care, but it also provides an excuse for J_H's behavior that should permit a reconciliation.

And frankly, I hope it moves J_H out of the S/R circle of influence as well. Although we've got nothing definitive about exactly where Draco is headed in terms of his beliefs and goals, I do still feel like he's been slowly but steadily growing. The ps of this year seems very different from the ps of this time last year. I think he's definitely been effected by all he went through last year (most of it brought on by his own actions) and his relationshps with his friends. His parents split hopefully made him more independent of them.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Harry's going in the opposite direction, but I get worried about that a lot. The kid has the only parents in the game who are more emotionally draining than Draco's living with him at school. Harry will probably always harbor some fantasies about family and a happy home, but these guys aren't the way to get it and Harry's an adult anyway.

I can see PS coming out of all this with a humbling realization of how nice it would be to have someone of his own, who was dedicated to caring for him, in a relationship he wasn't afraid to acknowledge. And I kind of think Harry is feeling the same thing, as he gets bounced around between Remus and Sirius. So maybe they're ready for a breakthrough, here.

This definitely seems like a possibility. At this age, both of them should naturally be thinking about what they want to do with their own lives and who they want to spend them with. Obviously at their age they don't need to be focused on settling down with one person, but an important romantic relationship could be very important. When James was Harry's age he'd have been dating Lily, and building a life with her and his friends.

black_dog @ November 24 2003, 23:37:16 UTC

Draco did this huge thing that was about something as general as Quidditch and there wasn't a major response.

I would go even further -- never mind the general public reaction, people he considered his friends were MIA. I'm especially disappointed there was nothing public from Millicent and Pansy. I'm speculating aggressively here, but there may be a real question of envy and resentment involved, as Draco shows his potential for getting on with his life in a really spectacular way. It raises one of those very depressing questions of whether you can really be friends with people who can't keep up, with people who are going to be rattled by another person's successes because of their own issues. This is the sort of thing that's going to push PS closer to Harry, who #1 can keep up and #2 faces similar issues in dealing with the people around him.

I love how Ron keeps trying to enforce the laws of the universe as he sees them.

Oh, this is a perfect description of Ron! And really, in a way, NA!Ron could be more PS' peer than a lot of versions of Ron, because I think this Ron, however difficult he may be, is fearless and sincere and not insecure about anybody.

The kid [Harry] has the only parents in the game who are more emotionally draining than Draco's living with him at school.

*dies* That is very cruel, but deadly accurate. I have a soft spot for Remus, but you're right, those two have far too many issues to be any kind of rock for Harry. At best, in their best moments, they give him a sense of what to look for in finding his own anchor.

*sits back and waits eagerly for the next developments*

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 01:34:50 UTC

You both seem to have stopped talking. Can I star things? Please please please? Because you've made me delighted, but I'm not certain if either of you actually enjoy being starred.

black_dog @ November 26 2003, 06:09:28 UTC

Jeez, such an imposition, to get a star! Oh all right, I guess you can. ;) Now watch magpie get more than me. *pouts*

Seriously, for my .02, stars are great to clarify factual confusion, or to encourage points that are being made a bit too tentatively and might get overlooked. The only time they're weird is sometimes in the middle of a hot back-and-forth discussion that's actually moving forward, because it's more fun to marshall arguments and to persuade one another based on evidence, and also to discover stuff by putting a couple of heads together in an intense way and trying on and testing out theories. But even then, at the end of the game it's fun to see the score. I loved the way you starred magpie's point about the appointment, because it was an important bit of circumstance that clarified PS' disappointment, but also let the speculations on their emotional state, the proposition and testing of theories, go on for a bit.

Bottom line, for what my opinion's worth, I think it's absolutely fascinating to get any insight into what you guys are thinking and intending, or to think that we might have gotten a piece of it, or even to find out that we were on an utterly wrong track. And it's a blast to get feedback on our feedback. So, star away!

By the way, it's kind of a trip that a player would actually follow this rambling thread. I love what you guys are doing with the characters, and sometimes you do something so subtle and moving that it just sends me spinning with delight as a reader. And it's fun to try to figure out how it works, to pin it down, in a thread like this. I guess I usually picture you guys laughing at our gropings toward an interpretation, but I'm really happy you enjoy the feedback, and it's always a major treat, for me at least, to have you engage us back!

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 06:56:11 UTC

I'm one of the players who doesn't really star often at all. I think I'd rather see people draw conclusions on their own and based on what I (and everyone else, but I'm talking about me, me, me here, of course) have written, rather than me directly saying, Here is what I meant.

Sometimes, though, I think that we get overly delighted when someone gets a subtle point we're trying to make that we think, WOW, I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY GOT THAT and star it (or, in the case of someone in particular, marquee stars).

I always love watching you and magpie go on like this, though, which is why I've been watching this old post. I (speaking only for me again, here, though I doubt there's anyone who doesn't feel the same) am always floored when you guys get the subtler things we put in, rather than the obvious (Draco has commented to Harry). I usually don't think anyone will even watch for things I put in, so that's why I've been reading this whole thread waiting for you guys to stop commenting so I could comment with my joyful stars.

I'm also about to feel like a professor, because you both write such long, wonderful comments that I feel like I ought to quote the specific parts I mean when I star, which I fear is going to come across like I'm grading a paper. Which isn't it at all, but that some parts just make me go, WOW and I feel I must inform you.

sistermagpie @ November 26 2003, 07:38:19 UTC

I am mighty appreciative of these stars!! Particularly because I'm so glad to be able to tell you guys how subtle things come through because of how well the characters are played. Sometimes they come through and we misinterpret them because we don't have all the information, but honestly, I am floored by how posts by how different in tone posts can be, even short ones, and how each character has their own style. I have very little experience reading rpgs besides this one, and this kind of thread really shows how it's both like writing and like acting.

Plus it thrills me that we're offering any kind of amusement back to you guys, given how much we obviously get out of the game! And this thread was just--I think b_d will back me up on this--it was just a feast of emotion, all the more intense because it was about small issues that still meant a lot. Maybe what was especially exciting is...well, wait, I'm going to write that bit to b_d to discuss it.:-)

Anyway, Wee! Go you players!

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 07:49:53 UTC

It's a very difficult forum to make subtleties come through with, particularly if, say, Character A makes a jab at something Character B has said in private. It's difficult to make it evident what Character B said, because it would frequently be OOC for Character A to go into it. So yes, it's definitely easy to misinterpret, which I think is also partly why I'm often so impressed when you're spot on. Many times it makes perfect sense to me because I know precisely what's going on in the character's head and know pretty much every detail about what they've done outside of the journals, so when someone else can figure out what I'm talking about without knowing that, it's hugely impressive.

And, oh no! You're still discussing, now I've pounced to soon. I kept watching the comment count on this thread to wait for it to stop moving so I could jump in, because while the discussion thrills me, I know that the only way I can really join in is by starring.

Go Nrageders! Nragers? Hm. That sounds better.

sistermagpie @ November 26 2003, 08:23:27 UTC

Nah, technically this next bit is a new discussion because I've have collapsed into a puddle of squee from the new exchange. You've managed to move me to tears with that one, though it might have been in part due to the ROTK soundtrack I'm listening to.:-)

black_dog @ November 26 2003, 10:12:42 UTC

Sometimes, though, I think that we get overly delighted when someone gets a subtle point we're trying to make

Oh, it's extremely cool to know that these threads are fun for you guys, as well! I think one of the reasons it's so fun to spin out theories about NA is that it really does reward that kind of close reading, it really is very subtle and wonderfully written.

when you guys get the subtler things we put in, rather than the obvious (Draco has commented to Harry).

You commented somewhere else, too, about the fact that so much goes on behind the scenes, that it's a surprise when people pick up on offhand comments, or on some subtlety in the dynamic between two characters. But I think it's a tribute to the way you've built the characters over time, to their complexity and reality and vividness, that a reader can notice things closely and infer a lot, just as they would with real people.

I fear is going to come across like I'm grading a paper.

Hahaha, I used to feel like such a pedant for writing these long comments, but it's just the way I have fun with NA, and I love being shot down or made to think twice, and I love the fact that magpie and one or two others share my obsession for long close reading and argument about it all. (We really have to get verdant and a few others back into this game, don't we?) And I realize it would sort of break the wall down for you guys to sort of step from behind the scenes and get into long detailed discussions of the characterizations, but the stars are a happy compromise, I think, and it's great to get a glimpse to confirm what you guys are actually thinking.

sistermagpie @ November 26 2003, 08:18:17 UTC

I am thrilled with the next developments!! This exchange really made my jaw drop, particularlythis.

I mean...what is there even to say about Harry using his other icon there, and so honestly (and deservedly) calling Draco a prick? This made me wonder all sorts of things.

It seems momentous that Draco brought that exchange up. It's kind of the elephant in their relationship, never spoken of in public certainly, and presumably not too much in private either (whatever they get up to in private, which I can't say for sure!). They talked about it enough to come to an understanding, but obviously it isn't something Harry's comfortable joking about and he lets Draco know that.

So why does Draco throw that out? His response to Harry's sounds kind of gleeful, happily joking about how Harry likes him no matter how much of a prick he is, and Harry lets it go by joking about his inventing the wheel. Draco even gets to end the conversation as the "winner" with his little, "sure you are." He sounds more confident about his and Harry's relationship than he ever has been. Actually, I'd say this is the first time he's been confident at all. I'm assuming this is a result of the talk they had after the exchange we discussed above.

That makes me happy for them.:-) Because it seems like because Draco actually made the breakthrough of, as you said, telling Harry that he's hurt when Harry forgets him, implying he fears being left alone by him (in the past he's always claimed it was a fact that Potter would abandon him one day and that was fine by him and Harry believed this all too well), Harry was actually able to make it clear this wasn't true. That's got to be a big deal for ps, to admit a fear (his worst fear, in a way) and have Harry not let him down.

I feel like part of the reason this could happen was because of some of the things we talked about earlier. ps has grown up a bit and they're not as unequal in their exchange as they usually are. It wasn't a case of ps making unreasonable demands and Harry patiently going along with them, it was Draco asking for what he really wanted and Harry seeing how he hadn't given it to him. Harry himself was not in a good place going into that conversation either, so I wonder if he didn't get some things out too. I can't say how that would relate to the "fan" exchange, but I feel like there's some little thing going on there.

It's like...this is vague, but...it's like okay, Draco is joking about M.B. stealing his shampoo and watching him in the shower. Then Harry makes a joke about Draco not having a fan-base which means a bit more coming from TBWL to ps. Of course Harry isn't really shoving it in Draco's face that he doesn't have fans, because I think Harry of all people knows that that "one person" is more important hoards of admirers. Draco comes back with his own joke about how Harry's obviously his fan, with the link. For a second Harry seems to get sensitive, perhaps thinking Draco has really scratched at him during their play fight because of what Harry said. But Draco's response is like...it's like Harry looked to him for reassurance and Draco was, indeed, smiling at him genuinely. Like Harry thought Draco was laughing at Harry's being rejected, but really Draco brought it up because he's tickled that Harry really likes him. Harry seems to get that so he can joke about "Never telling him anything again," and Draco just grins wider with his, "Sure you will." Harry actually likes him and that's great by him. He just likes saying it. They both seem to be tentatively joking about their own feelings of rejection, which makes me think that maybe ps wasn't the only one who got that out during their talk.

Our little guys are growing up.::sniff::

black_dog @ November 26 2003, 09:49:08 UTC

it's like Harry looked to him for reassurance and Draco was, indeed, smiling at him genuinely

That is just beautifully put, and I think it absolutely nails what's going on in that moment.

Harry's first thought is that Draco is mocking his feelings for him by bringing up the attempted kiss. But in fact, it's just that PS is almost giddy about the fact that Harry likes him and cares about him. In a way, it's classic PS behavior, and kind of endearing, that his giddiness sends him over the top a little, makes him reckless enough that he inadvertantly hurts Harry and has to tactfully correct himself. They're both getting more sensitive about the ways they can hurt each other. (In fact, we talked before about what a breakthrough it was for PS to acknowledge being hurt -- is this the first time Harry has so bluntly acknowledged it, too?) And that growing, mutual acknowledgment of vulnerability is a wonderful thing; they're finally getting past their need to deny their emotional dependence on one another, to armor themselves against risk in a self-defeating way.

I love that Draco is willing to make his meaning clear, once Harry calls him a prick, by mimicking some language Harry recently used to tease him -- "You keep saying that, but . . . ", then gloating playfully about how Harry sticks around anyway, and then saying, as clearly as he dares, that he's "quite alright" not just with Harry's feelings for him, but with the fact that Harry is going to be (note: not "wants to be") his "fan." Along the way, he calls Harry "TBWL," which is, in an odd way, PS' most intimate pet name for him, evoking some of their friendliest, easiest times together.

I agree with you that this sense of giddy happiness pervades PS' whole comment and thread. There's a continual, teasing, almost-acknowledgment of the sexual feelings between them -- when PS talks about secrets in the original comment, when he mocks Ernie for not knowing what the drawing really signifies, and especially when JH and PS get into that long, mock-erotic riff about MB watching PS in the shower, and Harry imagining the scene. (And the correlation between their conversation and PS's unanswered comments to MB, higher up in the thread, is very funny -- you can almost see PS doing a series of double-takes and shooting suspicious questions at MB. Oh, and go MB! for knowing when to stay out of a conversation.)

What is just breathtaking about this whole thread -- and I should feedback a version of this to anonymous, above, too -- is they way they are actually enacting their relationship, in all its emotional intimacy, in all that it means to both of them, right before our eyes. They aren't describing or summarizing, they are actually being vulnerable, taking risks, suffering hurts, coming to new insights, changing their tacks, coming to an understanding, right there for us to watch. It's just an amazing literary achievement to vividly depict a character changing and growing in an absolutely convincing way, so that you can infer all the important things that are going on in his head and the concrete ways his experience is changing him. There's such a huge amount of emotional development in all these little exchanges between Harry and Draco, and yet it's all there in front of us, things are happening with all the density and quickness and miraculous subtlety of a charged emotional encounter in real life. I'm babbling, now, because I admire it so much. ;)

sistermagpie @ November 26 2003, 20:49:11 UTC

In a way, it's classic PS behavior, and kind of endearing, that his giddiness sends him over the top a little, makes him reckless enough that he inadvertantly hurts Harry and has to tactfully correct himself.

I could see him feeling really daring when he did that. He seemed ready to have to reassure Harry after it. There's a little risk involved for him too, of course, because that kiss doesn't just bring up Harry's attempted kiss but the outing (which Harry almost tacitly references when he talks about ps telling his secrets). When I read his response about Harry being his fan it felt to me like he wasn't so much thinking, "Oops! That made him mad" but, "Right Malfoy, you brought it up, you've got the opening, now's your chance to say something good about it." I mean, ps obviously gets that he'd said something pretty Big there (requiring a special icon!). His comment in response (I could be hallucinating) feels like he really is a little nervous about using this as a chance to reassure Harry about his feelings. And yes, I love the way he talks about how things are going to be if Harry's going to be his fan. The language makes me wonder if they talked a lot about the way things were "going to be" from now on.

It would make sense if they'd come to an understanding that made ps feel especially good, imo, that ps might have an impulse to give Harry something extra in response and make sure the kiss incident was all okay now. Harry's calling him a prick does show a step forward for him too. Compare it to the very thread linked where Harry just seems to drop his head into his hands whenever the subject of liking Malfoy comes up. Harry's through apologizing for it.

I think ps is still feeling pretty up about things given his little pokings of M.B. He just commented to her again, hours later, demanding an answer to how she got his shampoo. When he's upset he crawls into his hole. Now he's trying to draw M.B. out. I wonder if M.B. is finding this incredibly amusing. A happy Draco might bring it's own affectionate irritation.:-)

ITA with the babbles.

black_dog @ November 27 2003, 02:05:52 UTC

It would make sense if they'd come to an understanding that made ps feel especially good, imo,

I think somewhere above you made another reference to the use of the word "fan," and I'm thinking about that word in trying to imagine the conversation they must have had. "Fan" sounds like a reference to the Cannons adventure -- Millicient is PS' number one fan because she acknowledged the adventure, turned his stuff orange, etc. When Harry says that MB probably used a charm on his soap rather than hid in the washroom, PS says in effect "don't disillusion me" but specifically "do not destroy the center of my fan base." So it does sound like they've talked extensively about the Cannons thing, and Draco's disappointment with the reaction, and maybe even about Draco's hope that Harry would have had to fanboy him if he had joined the team because Harry was a fan of the Cannons.

I can definitely see that turning into a conversation about Harry's feelings for Draco, in what sense (playfully, but seriously) he might really be a "fan" of PS. And when Harry teases back about Draco telling all his secrets, he might be referring to his own willingness to use the word "fan" to reassure Draco he cares about him and to patch over the Cannon's business. I wondering if Harry could say something as blunt and mawkish as "Well, I am your fan anyway." Although actually I kind of like the idea of him saying this to Draco privately in a moment of intensity, and feeling a bit embarassed, and then having Draco tease him a bit by now subtly alluding to it publicly. Either way, I suspect that's the essential message he gave Draco, in some form.

Going back to Millicent, it's also kind of interesting that Draco pretends to be disappointed when Harry suggests there was a soap charm -- as though MB might have been less of a fan if she wasn't, really, stalking him in the shower. It's a weird association -- it playfully connects being a fan with sexual stalking, which might explain the otherwise odd mental leap from Harry being a fan to a reminder about the kiss. But again, I can imagine a previous, private conversation where Harry sort of teased PS, saying "you know I'm your fan because I've stalked you."

And in this reading, Harry's sense of hurt feelings would be less about his feelings being taken for granted, than in his disorientation about Draco's sudden willingness to be public about all this. Harry had made a playful, but also intimate and kind of tender, and in any event private confession that stalking = fanboying. He thinks, for a moment, that Draco is now mocking this and not taking it seriously or respecting the privacy of their conversation. In that case, Draco's reassurance -- "It's quite all right if you're going to be my fan," -- is even more aggressive, even more of an announcement, even more to the point than we suspected before.

All speculative, but it's fun to speculate.

catiadoodle @ November 27 2003, 06:25:51 UTC

I'd like to say a huge thank you to Magpie and you for what you're doing here in these threads and in nraged in general.

You see, it's not only a pleasure to read your speculations (especially knowing a lot of them are often accurate), but it's also a need for me to fully understand ps and j_h's exchanges of comments and then speculate on my own, because of the incredible subtlety of it all. I think I can manage for other characters like Snape or Lupin because I've been following NA for more than 9 months now, but for ps and j_s, knowing all the particulars is still not enough. It's just SO difficult for me (as a non-native speaker) to get all the tiny tiny nuances (like the difference between "if you're going to be my fan" and "if you want to be my fan", for example), that you and Magpie are really a huge help.

I wouldn't be able to fully appreciate NA (which I love to bits) without your two mad theorizing minds.
Much, much love to you two!

sistermagpie @ November 27 2003, 20:22:00 UTC

Thanks so much! I sometimes wonder if I don't just drive people crazy with my mad theorizing mind. But I love hashing this stuff out with b_d I do it anyway.:-)

black_dog @ November 28 2003, 05:35:17 UTC

Hey, always a pleasure! <333333's

I like what you say about needing to understand JH and PS. There are a lot of wonderful characters in NA, but I think my fascination about Harry and Draco is that they are so screwed up underneath their apparent competence on the surface, and have such a potential to be happy, and so deserve it. So it's just gripping to follow all the twists and turns of how they (hopefully) work their way, little by little, to a healthy and sane relationship. I just want to cheer them at every forward step, and bite my nails at every step backwards. It's silly, but I like it a lot.

black_dog @ November 28 2003, 05:54:54 UTC

I swear I posted a reply here, too! I'll give it time to percolate through the LJ database and show up, but right now I'll just second what magpie says!

sistermagpie @ November 26 2003, 09:37:51 UTC

Oh, this is a perfect description of Ron! And really, in a way, NA!Ron could be more PS' peer than a lot of versions of Ron, because I think this Ron, however difficult he may be, is fearless and sincere and not insecure about anybody.


I forgot I also wanted to speak to this because I love NA Ron so much. It's difficult being friends with TBWL and NA always manages to portray that realistically, being both a good friend and an occasional blunderer. He's got such a sense of right and wrong and is so stalwart in protecting just about anybody he cares about, yet it's hysterical watching have to deal with ps who on the surface is everything he's against but whom he has to take more seriously as Harry's friend. I love watching Ron slowly come to an understanding of Draco (still having the regular blow-ups, of course). He's such a natural hero, our NA Ron!

Even better, I feel like Draco can't help but compare himself negatively to Ron at times. Like when Ron accuses him of being selfish by not telling Harry about the tryouts I think Draco's reaction was probably very mixed: resentment at the idea that he should have told him, but guilt at the way Ron would expect him to as Harry's friend. Ron has this way of picking up the thing's Draco's using to protect himself and just saying, "Oi, what's all this then? Why are you pretending you don't like Harry?" or whatever. And poor Draco's left kind of naked and looking for cover elsewhere, sputtering at Ron. And Ron doesn't even know he's doing it half the time. He just thinks Draco's a nutter. Yet Ron too is learning to appreciate Draco more. No wonder their exchanges are so funny. He definitely is able to hold his own with ps and even acknowledge that they have some things in common with regards to Harry. I think Draco's a little taken aback at the way Ron has brought Draco into his circle of acquantances and continues to treat him as such even when Harry's not involving himself. I don't know if he's used to that kind of consistency. His parents' attention waxes and wanes depending on mood. Ron, in a way, is like the scolding but dependable mom or dad he never had.:-)

black_dog @ November 26 2003, 10:21:55 UTC

You know, one interesting feature of the Ron/Draco dynamic is that the way they manifest their caring about Harry is so deeply wound up with their own natures. Ron is all about that attack-dog loyalty. I don't think Draco could ever be protective of Harry the way Ron is, because that sort of subordination is so alien to him, and because it's so important to him that his friends be strong and not need that kind of looking out for. So yeah, he looks at Ron's defense of Harry, and it just strikes him as the kind of thing he never would have thought of himself, but also he maybe has a nagging sense that there's a point there, that it's important but that he's just not wired to see it properly. It's got to keep him off balance just a bit.

It's interesting that in all this discussion, we maybe haven't focused on taking seriously the possibility that Ron is right, that Draco's tryout really did trash Harry's Cannon fantasies and maybe hurt his feelings a bit. I have to admit I would never have thought this (quite the opposite, as I wrote a couple days back) but for better or worse, Ron does tend to see things that other people don't see, however, um, obliquely he may do so. I wonder if we need to do a better job of folding Harry's feelings about the tryouts into our total sense of what's going on in this whole incident.

sistermagpie @ November 26 2003, 20:49:36 UTC

You know, one interesting feature of the Ron/Draco dynamic is that the way they manifest their caring about Harry is so deeply wound up with their own natures.

Yes, it's really interesting how Ron is so out there with his caring and Draco is the opposite. With Ron, even when he and Harry are fighting he's still out there proclaiming his loyalty to him everywhere. Ps is all about pretending not to care. He must look at Ron and just be confused. Anyway if he tried to imitate Ron he'd probably do about as badly as Narcissa when she tried to be like Molly.

I wonder if we need to do a better job of folding Harry's feelings about the tryouts into our total sense of what's going on in this whole incident.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. I have a hard time imagining that Harry is that focused on Quidditch or that he specifically wants to play for the Cannons. But his feelings could be hurt just because this is obviously something ps kept him out of even though it concerned him. As he said to ps, it would have been fun if he'd let him in on what he was doing. And really, it was something Draco planned behind his back, so Harry and Ron are correct to pick up on a little scheming on his part. They both might think it was all about rubbing Harry's face in something.

Ron does often see things that others don't see, but he's not always right about what he's seeing.:-) I think of this reaction being somewhat like his taking Harry to the Quidditch match so making Draco worry that he'd ruined his chance to go with him to the Cannons/Falcons match. I remember how Draco ranted about Ron "ruining" everything and that's what I see happening here too (not Ron ruining things but things being ruined). Draco's not just a performer but orchestrator of massive plans. He puts tons of effort into this shows and his artistic temperment doesn't take well to them not being understood by his public. Pansy's birthday cake went over wonderfully after all his effort. This even more fabulous plan flopped about as badly as the fake blood.

black_dog @ November 27 2003, 02:25:59 UTC

Ron does often see things that others don't see, but he's not always right about what he's seeing.:-) . . . Draco's not just a performer but orchestrator of massive plans. He puts tons of effort into this shows and his artistic temperment doesn't take well to them not being understood by his public. . . . This even more fabulous plan flopped about as badly as the fake blood.

Oh, it's only too true about Ron not always being right. But actually, part of the way I read Ron is that I deliberately want to save what I can from his extravagances; what makes his rants interesting is the kernel of truth in them, of emotional insight.

So if PS didn't actually hurt Harry with the Cannons adventure, then in what other way might Ron still be on to something? And maybe you get at one possibility when you talk about Draco as an "orchestrator." His insecurities make him a bit of a control freak in emotional matters, and that kind of approach is just the wrong way to go about deepening his relationship with Harry.

Playing off my comment to you on another thread -- what Draco has done in the Cannons-tryout business is to stage an elaborate piece of performance art that was designed to attract "fans." But what Ron is telling him in effect is, "you don't need fans, Harry at least already is your fan, what you need is to show more consideration, build a deeper emotional connection." And although it may not be literally true that Draco's Cannon tryouts hurt Harry's feelings, it is abstractly, more generally true that Draco's narcissism tends to keep Harry at a distance, tends to make him doubt the relationship and disappoint him emotionally. And Draco would do better, with Harry, if he worried less about impressing him and worked harder on realizing the potential emotional depth of their friendship. He would do better to understand that Harry was hurting, too, and that they could work together on being happier.

Hmm, a little sappy maybe, and vague, but I think I'm on to at least the end of an unraveling thread, here. And it's interesting, of course, that the failure of Draco's Cannons performance leads to a success that is much more important, since it provokes the JH/PS conversations we've been admiring on the other threads. Ron really has done his job, however crudely, by making Draco second-guess himself and begin to acknowledge what he really wants from Harry.

sistermagpie @ November 27 2003, 10:21:23 UTC

Right What Ron picks up on here is absolutely true, really. It doesn't have to do with Harry specifically dreaming of being Seeker for the Cannons. It's just the more basic idea that Harry likes the Cannons and Harry is Seeker. Draco was doing this neat thing that involved the Cannons and being a Seeker. Why would he not tell Harry that?

To Ron, that's a no-brainer. Maybe this is because he's so used to passing things on to the person who would most enjoy them, in a way. Like in his family they like each other so much they tend to naturally be on the lookout for things that would make the other happy. For instance, when Ron used his money to buy Ginny a broom. Doing things for others is second nature to Ron, especially when it's not about money so much as just showing you know this person and enjoy doing things that make them happy, even if it means passing yourself over.

Interestingly, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Ron is totally right and Draco totally wrong here. I mean, Ron tends to see things as very regimented in the way they're supposed to be and it often makes him a little closed-minded until he has a reason to think differently. Ultimately he's wrong in what he's telling ps--that ps owed it to Harry to tell him about the tryouts because Harry=Cannons=Seeker. A lot of times in big families especially I think kids can get identified by certain things, like Fred and George are the funny ones, Percy's the good student, Bill's the adventurous one. It can be confining and Ron tends to do that with other people as well.

So I think Ron is right to zero in on this scheme of ps' being at least a little bit about putting Harry down (in that he looks forward to seeing the look on Harry's face when he is made Seeker) when as his friend he should be doing the honorable thing in telling Harry about it. At the same time, though, ps is correct in saying that being friends with someone doesn't mean you can't also compete with them. Ultimately in this situation Ron's lesson was more important--do you want to beat Harry or do you want to be close to Harry? He wants to be close.

black_dog @ November 28 2003, 05:49:33 UTC

I really like your observation about the connection between Ron's personality and his big family -- the idea that there was sort of an inevitable communism about sharing things, that everyone had their leading, defining characteristic so that there was sort of a mechanical sense that A belongs to X, B to Y, etc. I didn't grow up in a big family so I wouldn't actually know, but this sounds plausible to me.

Harry I think has a hint of this, too, for his own reasons -- remember in the Q and A when he defined love not as a feeling, but as automatically looking out for another person and doing what makes them happy. I'm not sure I totally agree with that -- It depends on the person, and I think in the case of both Ron's feeling of being submerged in a big family, and Harry's tendency to be down on himself and neglect himself, that a reflexive focus on the other person can be a little self-denying and empty. I'd like to see Harry come to trust the idea of a relationship as an exchange, as a situation where he has a right to demand support as freely as he gives it. I think the fact that he doesn't trust this kind of reciprocity, that he deliberately lowers his expectations, is one of the barriers to progress between him and Draco, which is one reason I loved the flash of anger and entitlement in his "prick" comment.

Although I completely agree that friendship doesn't preclude rivalry, I do wonder if romantic love ought not to limit rivalry. I mean, could you imagine a married couple where one person snuck out and nabbed something for himself, that the other person might have wanted badly? PS and JH aren't that far along, of course, so I wouldn't expect that much from them. But I'm also not sure I could see JH keeping the tryout secret from PS, if the roles had been reversed.

In a way, it's a false issue because being Seeker for the Cannons is not something either of them really wants. But I continue to be fascinated by the endless complications raised by what Draco did, and all the stuff they've had to think about as a result -- it's a kind of productive irritant to their relationship, like the proverbial sand in the oyster.

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 07:03:11 UTC

I agree that Harry started out oblivious -- he's "not mad," and only formally sorry for missing the meeting. But I was inclined to think that he picked up quickly on at least the general tenor of Draco's feelings. Draco's abrupt reply just refuses to acknowledge the "not mad" bit, and I think that makes Harry realize how far off the point he is on that issue. So Harry's second apology is more a general apology for not being there, and it sounds more sincere.

So next Harry probes to see how angry Draco really is -- Can they paper it over by getting together now? Can he lighten up the situation with a joke about food? Should they walk to class together? Does Draco want him to go away for now and leave him alone?

And I think the poignance of Draco's reply, which you really put your finger on, is that Draco is very angry at Harry but doesn't want him to go away. He's not angry in a way that makes him want to affirm his autonomy from Harry, he's angry about Harry's distance, and lets him know he wants him closer. And given who Draco is, and everything about his impossible pride, it must be just a wrenching thing for PS to admit, to someone who has hurt him, that that person has the power to hurt him, and that he hopes that person will comfort him instead.

I do think Harry gets this, which is a significant thing for him as well. I think his last comment, about being impressed, is Harry's way of telling PS that he isn't oblivious to him, that he always notices what PS does. And his "Okay" is of course their special word, a very charged word, that Harry uses when they've made some kind of emotional connection. I mean, it sounds to me like Harry is on his way over.

!

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 07:09:38 UTC

I have just asked black_dog if I may star and I am GLEEFULLY taking his permission to star you as well. I hope you don't mind!

What's kind of interesting is that ps seems to drop it. I wonder if he's now feeling embarrassed about his need to do this in secret and hoping Harry doesn't figure out why. If so that's kind of interesting, because it would suggest for once Harry hasn't caught on to an insecurity of ps.' He's not just being the patient j_h who listens to him rant and says "okay" because he sees his vulnerability. I also wonder if the whole thing's just been ruined because it didn't have the effect he wanted.

!

Draco ignores Harry's reference to his tryouts completely and focuses on Harry ditching him without a word. He's very short and to the point, which is usually not a good sign with ps.

Harry sounds really sad to me when he's asking ps to meet him. When I read his, "Do you want me to just go then?" it didn't seem like the way he was teasing ps the way he sometimes does, like forcing him to come out and say what he really wants. It sounded to me like he really wanted to see him but felt like this was one of those rare instances when ps had reason to not want to see him.

I read ps' last post as sort of an attempt at a couple of things that had some real emotion coming through it. Like, this kind of over-the-top threat for what he would do to someone who's kept him waiting five minutes isn't out of the ordinary for ps, but it did feel like he was sort of being serious about letting Harry know how angry it made him. At the same time, though, I wondered if the sudden verbosity and wild imagery was a way of showing Harry he was forgiven. Harry's "Probably I'd just be impressed by the effort," almost seemed a little relieved to me.

Now I am getting carried away and bolding the parts that made me go, :o! at your perception, here.

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 07:10:17 UTC

Oops, I forgot a star. Well, I assume it goes without saying that I meant that to be starred.

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 06:59:09 UTC

Beyond that, I can see it more and more as something Draco just wanted to do for his own reasons; and it's the Cannons less because of Harry and Ron and more because, as people have pointed, they're the only ones recruiting mid-season. Also, the fact that he doesn't respect the Cannons may make the whole thing less intimidating. The significance of the Cannons for Harry and Ron would then just be gravy to PS -- it's revenge for neglect, it's a particularly satisfying way to show them up.

!

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 07:14:51 UTC I am so sorry for this inbox flooding.

Also, just because Draco is Harry's friend now doesn't mean he doesn't still want to beat him into the ground.;-) He's suffered many a humiliation at Harry's hands so it may just be a plus that the team that's offering tryouts is Harry's beloved Cannons. If he was looking through QW and secretly thinking, "Hey, what if I became the Seeker?" I suspect the look on Potter's face would be a plus. He'd probably resent the idea that he shouldn't try out because this was "Potter's team."

black_dog @ November 26 2003, 10:13:37 UTC Re: I am so sorry for this inbox flooding.

Re: inbox flooding, never worry. <3333333333333333

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 19:16:50 UTC

Actually, the more I read your take, the more I like it all. We agree that he had to be making some point to Harry, probably a provocative or encouraging rather than a deliberately hurtful one, but he could well have misjudged its impact because it was also so much about himself. Hmmmm. Have to think more.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 19:17:25 UTC

There's also his father.

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 19:23:42 UTC

Ohhh, excellent point, I had missed that.

hobaggins @ November 22 2003, 19:26:09 UTC

Is this the first time he's called himself his father's protege?

black_dog @ November 22 2003, 19:31:42 UTC

Not sure, but someone will find out! It's an interesting word, but it's not unusual for him to flatter his father that way in his signatures -- "what I am, I owe to you" in effect. I wondered briefly if Lucius might have put him up to the tryout, but that would spoil the effect.

fourscore @ November 22 2003, 19:41:49 UTC

I'm pretty sure he's used that signature before, but I wouldn't know where to begin looking.

fourscore @ November 22 2003, 19:53:13 UTC

Sheer dumb luck comes through once again!

http://www.livejournal.com/users/potterstinks/15870.html?thread=199934#t199934

Anonymous @ November 26 2003, 07:17:57 UTC

Now while the idea of this being an elaborate joke for Harry's benefit would be unbelievable, I don't think Harry had any idea. Maybe it would be just the thing to bring him out of his depression, and Draco said he was definitely not taking the position so it isn't like there is actually substance to fight over..... I don't know. Reading Draco's responses sort of felt like he was second guessing himself, even though he wouldn't admit it.

His "alarmed yet composed" icon when first responding to Ron... Draco has been using that icon a lot, but all the same, I definitely don't think Harry had the slightest clue he was going to use.

khesanh @ November 22 2003, 08:40:29 UTC

I thought it was a "RIGHT! I'VE PISSED YOU OFF! AM RUNNING NOW!" sort of thing, like that he knew Draco was ready to tear his head off so he decided to make a run for it.

hinted @ November 22 2003, 22:57:52 UTC

*snicker* Indeed. NA!Ron is, methinks, the exception to every rule of mine regarding Ron.

noirenails @ November 22 2003, 00:03:32 UTC

Someone loves me. Just when I was hoping for some fluff or anything heart warming, there is some! I love just_harry.

khesanh @ November 22 2003, 00:04:29 UTC

<33333333333333 J_H.
He cracks me up.

Anonymous @ November 22 2003, 00:03:34 UTC

whoa, am i the only one O_Oing at that whole exchange with ron and draco? look at draco's icon choices!

lazy_daze @ November 22 2003, 05:29:54 UTC

Haha, Ron/Draco interaction never fails to crack me up - I was giggling away too. <333333

khesanh @ November 22 2003, 07:26:44 UTC

Hahahaha. I love Ron/Draco interaction. They're always classic kodac moments. <3333

greenapricot @ November 22 2003, 07:18:38 UTC

Soso much love for Remus & Harry. And especially Harry with his sarcastic comments. *cacklesnort*

khesanh @ November 22 2003, 07:27:25 UTC

Haha. The Ron stuff was hilarious.