loony_moony @ Deleted Deleted

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notapipe @ December 28 2003, 00:40:58 UTC

Danke. You have too much time on your hands.

Knitting is a pox. Way too many people at my college knit and crochet. People talking about yarn. *shudder*

saffronlie @ December 28 2003, 01:52:34 UTC

Ron sounds really forced here. It feels like he and Harry are trying really hard to find some kind of balance, and at first Ron overcompensates with the CAPS and continuous laughter -- it's like, "look how great mates we are and the good times we're having", but it's at the expense of someone else.

amirah_kaessi @ December 28 2003, 02:08:17 UTC

Hmm,to me Harry sounds more forced than Ron because he’s on edge, he's continually cracking jokes and though I’m aware j_h does joke a lot in his comments to other people, it comes across as strained. Harry is desperately trying to make the situation more comfortable between him and Ron and he’s trying to do this by bonding over something they have in the past -- making fun of Malfoy.
This obviously has an adverse effect because not only is he creating more tensions in his relationship with Malfoy he is also highlighting one of the things that has pushed him and Ron further apart.

Poor J_H, he can’t seem to do anything right *hugs him.*

dry_your_eyes @ December 28 2003, 06:44:15 UTC

I agree, I feel harry didn't actually find his jokes that funny, but had to say them because Ron expected him to. At the other hand, maybe we can't always convey jokes in the comments the way we want them to sound and that's why they may seem a bit strained.

black_dog @ December 28 2003, 06:45:52 UTC

sistermagpie has a great comment here that's in danger of being buried on an older thread, so it makes sense to move the conversation up here to you guys' discussion. She said:

I do get a little bit of a vibe here. ps makes his joke about tardiness and Harry pointedly says he was sitting by a bedside in St. Mungo's . . . . Harry's almost riffing on ps and his present is almost aggressive . . . . "That wouldn't be fair, Ron. Let's pretend he crochets instead," struck me as pretty taunting.

It definitely feels like there's an undercurrent of hostility toward PS here. I wonder if that's something Harry is specifically feeling about PS, or if it's part of his general hostility and willingness to take shots at Neville and others. It's interesting that in the Harry/Ron discussion, it's Harry, not Ron, who starts making fun of PS hypothetical present -- "maybe he got me a nose warmer" -- after Harry had put off Ron's curiosity about the present a few times.

The way the tone changes between Harry and Ron over time is also interesting. In Harry's first two comments, on 12/26 and at 10:00 on 12/27, Harry seems brittle and a little patronizing, very much the way he's been the last couple of weeks to everyone. He's answering Ron carefully and literally so as not to make a joke above his head, and sounding a little impatient. ("No, I didn't draw it." "I don't know. I don't have it yet.") Then, four hours later, the conversation picks up again and you have Harry going out of his way to reach out to Ron, ask him questions, be silly with him, and make fun of Malfoy. I don't know if it feels manic or strictly out of character so much as it feels like a throwback to the pre-Draco era. What happened in between?

OK, timestamps are . . . you know. But: On the afternoon of 12/26, Harry goes out in Diagon Alley with Ginny and Hermione, and afterwards he tells Hermione he "didn't really realize how much he'd been staying in." It feels like maybe this was the first relaxed, fun time he'd had in a while. And maybe it crystallized some feelings about his old friends, his "real" friends. The 10 am post to Ron is an anomaly; he's still sounding grumpy, but maybe he'd just gotten up. :-) (He was still irritable the night before, so maybe it took a good night's sleep for his mood to consolidate.) At about 14:00, though, he goes on a spree of making friendly posts -- to Turpin, to Hermione, and restarting the big conversation with Ron. He also, about the same time, takes two nasty shots: at Trelawney, who has prophesied "death and destruction" in the new year, and at Draco, with the "sitting at someone's hospital bed" comment.

So Harry seems to have abruptly decided that he's going to re-bond with his old friends, and distance himself from people who make him think unpleasant thoughts about the war. And PS maybe seems to be on the short end of that stick. The exchange with PS about the tardy present picks up just as the long Harry-Ron conversation is winding down. It's not really all that harsh an exchange -- Harry could just be teasing hard, though PS' final reply seems touchy. But following along with the timestamps, it's immediately after this that PS discovers the Harry-Ron conversation and freaks out some more.

[continued . . . ]

black_dog @ December 28 2003, 06:48:50 UTC

[. . . continued]

Tracing each of Draco's replies to it's parent, it's interesting to see the way his tone changes when he's talking to Ron and when he's talking to Harry. With Ron, he's all all-caps and death-wishes. With Harry, he's more playfully sarcastic. But I think he sounds progressively more hurt, and less confidently whimsical, in each of his replies to Harry, as he realizes he's being shown some genuine disregard, here. ("warped crafting fantasies" . . . "there's quite a problem here" . . . "are you aware that you sound mentally retarded?") The fact that he sort of crumples rather than bursts into outrage is maybe another sign of how much he has invested in Harry.

For the same reason I think it's more likely that JH has failed to get PS a present than vice versa -- Harry is defensive and apologetic about being late with gifts, but PS actually seems a bit shy about it, as if he's not sure that what he's gotten wasn't over the top. (Random guess to throw my .02 in the pot -- I wonder if PS got Harry a portrait of Harry by Dean? That would explain some of Dean's recent scribbling, and also PS' "bits of green" comment to Ron.)

Either way, the vibe here is making me anxious. It feels like we're being set up for either a very sad breakup here, or a very schmoopy reconciliation. And I would love to see a reconciliation, but I don't know how you do it without getting into the DE issues and the other things that seem to be making Harry pull back from PS.

dry_your_eyes @ December 28 2003, 07:39:28 UTC

I wonder if PS got Harry a portrait of Harry by Dean? That would explain some of Dean's recent scribbling, and also PS' "bits of green" comment to Ron.
whoa! that would be a great present!

ponymouse @ December 28 2003, 15:21:26 UTC

But it's by Dean, though. Dean would've put in all the effort, not Draco.
Plus, Harry doesn't exactly strike me as the type to appreciate a portrait of himself. Maybe if it was from Draco directly...

onthehillside @ December 28 2003, 09:27:55 UTC

...but then again maybe there's a middle way. First Harry comments to Draco here asking him if he's busy today. Then it seems as though he's trying to diffuse PS's anger over his conversation with Ron last night with his comments here and here.

I get the feeling that last night was for Ron, but today is for PS. At least I want today to be about PS. Can it, please?

black_dog @ December 28 2003, 10:45:09 UTC

I hope so; I just think something big is coming between them, whatever it is. I hope they can work it out. I'm glad that Harry made a move here, though.

Because I love timestamps, I noticed a couple of things about these most recent exchanges. First, Harry seems to realize that he has to address hurt feelings on the Ron thread, before he asks to see PS. So he posts two sort-of-jokes at 7:00, and then goes to his other thread with PS at 7:01 to ask if he's free today. But PS reads and replies in reverse order -- he replies to the "are you busy today" thread first at 10:27 by blowing Harry off a little, which is only to be expected as a matter of pride. Only then (10:29) does he reply to, and maybe only then does he see, Harry's peace offerings on the Ron thread. And he sounds a little moer mollified there -- still testy at first about the nose warmer, but playful again about his "mystique." So NA has left us with a very nice ambiguity about whether PS has told Harry off, or has accepted his implicit apology. As usual, we are left in diabolical uncertainty. :-)

hobaggins @ December 28 2003, 11:14:53 UTC

We know they receieve the comments from eLJay, there was a thread with Colin in it where they talk about it. I suspect PS is the sort of person who replies to their comments in the order of their inbox.

sistermagpie @ December 28 2003, 13:10:31 UTC

Okay...Harry's asking if ps was free today was very nice.:-)

I wonder if that's something Harry is specifically feeling about PS, or if it's part of his general hostility and willingness to take shots at Neville and others. It's interesting that in the Harry/Ron discussion, it's Harry, not Ron, who starts making fun of PS hypothetical present -- "maybe he got me a nose warmer" -- after Harry had put off Ron's curiosity about the present a few times.

Yeah, that's a lot of what I got too. It's not that Harry's being cruel here, it's just a little more biting than his usual diplomatic, self-effacing self.

I do really like you're points about Harry sort of aggressively reaffirming his connection to his "real" friends--Ron, Hermione and Ginny. ps, partly due to an accident of birth but also due to his own choices, is conspicuously absent from these kinds of situations. Hermione and Ginny can drag Harry off to Hogsmeade, Ron can come with him to St. Mungo's. I wonder--maybe this is going out on a limb--but I wonder if in the face of that something like a present just becomes something to laugh about. Like...if ps is going to stay where he is in terms of loyalty he's going to stay outside the circle. Who cares what gifts he might buy?

Oddly, during this thread I found myself thinking about the time Harry spent in the infirmary last year. Then ps obviously wanted very badly to sit by Harry's side--and did. So there's every reason to think that he might also want to be by his side now, when he's worried about someone else, but he can't for any number of reasons. If he also didn't send Harry anything, Harry may have had good reason to feel like Draco wasn't really connected to his life the way a real friend would be. But now he's asking if Draco is free. Presumably this is after Harry spent time with Ron...I wonder if that put him in a better mood or made him feel better about ps (if he was feeling irritated at him before).

I did feel like ps was hurt as well as comically annoyed in the Ron/Harry thread, since he winds up replying over and over (finally using caps, large type, and bold like Ron) and being ignored. It would be different if they were laughing about him and ps joined in and they teased him as well, bringing him into the conversation, but he's not included when he shows up. Harry and Ron have presumably already left by that point, but still it makes it clear this was them having fun with each other and not just a way of bringing ps into the conversation without his being there. Harry's comment to him seems like the start of a whole new conversation where Harry is in a very different place about the whole thing, if that makes sense.

I do hope this is leading to some kind of thing for them. The ball is really in ps' court there, though. Harry's made his choice about sides and is unapologetic about it. I can imagine ps just wishes all fo this would go away or that he could just stay out of situations like this, pretending they don't exist.

onthehillside @ December 28 2003, 15:42:10 UTC

They've been in this awkward stage for a while in which Harry does something that hurts Draco's feelings and then Harry goes back and apologizes. Even now, the two aren't really saying anything important, yet they've been talking all day. There has been a real investment in checking back every hour or so to see what the other has said.

I think that the Christmas presents are symbolic in the way that neither want to stick their necks out too far. Harry says that he received PS's owl, but then only thanks PS for gifts from Narcissa. Does this mean that Draco has still not given Harry his present? I don't think either want to be the first to send their gifts.

vassilissa @ December 28 2003, 21:30:48 UTC

More than that: Narcissa gave presents, plural, to J_H? No WONDER PS is pissed off. He always hates when his mother gives any attention to Harry.

Have we even heard what Draco got from his parents for Christmas?

slightlights @ December 29 2003, 00:00:38 UTC

Please tell me that that ill-fated guinea pig of D's is not from Harry.

black_dog @ December 29 2003, 04:23:41 UTC

Ha! Maybe it's from Susan, though.

sistermagpie @ December 29 2003, 07:12:54 UTC

[I]Does this mean that Draco has still not given Harry his present? I don't think either want to be the first to send their gifts.[/I]

That is so incredibly cute I love it.:-) And it does make a lot of sense...

black_dog @ December 29 2003, 04:18:59 UTC

Ron can come with him to St. Mungo's.

[PS] might also want to be by his side now, when he's worried about someone else, but he can't for any number of reasons.

I'm trying to imagine the awkwardness of Draco visiting Harry and Remus at St. Mungos! I mean, Remus would have to be silent about all that happened to him for fear that Draco would carry intelligence back to Lucius -- or even if he trusted PS to keep secrets for Harry's sake, he'd know that PS would come under uncomfortable pressure from Lucius. And PS would have to be careful about talking about family and friends, for fear of mentioning someone who was involved in hurting Remus. Not a relaxing situation. Though if they tried it, it would be interesting to see how it played out.

Narcissa mentions coming to see Remus with Lucius and Draco, but I wonder if she isn't warning Remus about the inevitability of a social visit, to make sure he is mentally prepared for it. She also clearly wants to see Remus by herself -- "as soon as possible" rather than after the new year with Lucius and Draco. Narcissa, as always, is inscrutable.

Presumably this is after Harry spent time with Ron...I wonder if that put him in a better mood or made him feel better about ps.

I wonder if Harry wasn't being consciously a bit protective of Ron in the whole exchange about PS' gift. I mean, when PS teased Ron about his present for Harry, the subtext obviously was that he was flaunting a relationship that Ron doesn't have full access to. Which tends to hit Ron where he's most vulnerable. Harry might have thought it was only strictly fair to do the same thing back to Draco. I can see Harry and Ron getting together at Dogear and St. Mungo's, and Harry telling Ron not to let PS play head games with him and Ron telling Harry that it was fine, that he understood PS and didn't have a problem. That might have left Harry freer to reconcile with PS.

I can imagine ps just wishes all fo this would go away or that he could just stay out of situations like this, pretending they don't exist.

Yeah, I think PS' mind tends to work this way. Which is why it's so interesting and gripping to see the vice closing in on him, to see him forced to make choices.

catiadoodle @ December 30 2003, 13:31:54 UTC

Narcissa mentions coming to see Remus with Lucius and Draco, but I wonder if she isn't warning Remus about the inevitability of a social visit, to make sure he is mentally prepared for it.

Mmmh, are you sure she plans to visit Remus with her family? She wrote: "Lucius, Draco, and I may be taking a trip around Draco's birthday in a few days but I would truly love to see you as soon as possible!"

I might be wrong but I thought she meant she won't be able to come as soon as she would like to because of a trip with Lucius and Draco, not that she will come visiting him with them...
It would be far too weird to have Lucius and Draco visiting Remus, don't you think?

black_dog @ December 30 2003, 15:37:11 UTC

Hmmmm, yeah, on second thought I think your reading is probably right and mine is unlikely. I had assumed she meant the family was coming to visit (on their way through London, perhaps?) because that came right after her expression of eagerness to see him. And I really can see Lucius brazening out a visit, given his personality, just to be infuriating. But I think you're right, because Remus replies "I'll probably still be here," which suggests she intends to visit him after returning from the trip with her family.

I'm puzzled that she isn't visiting him sooner, though -- obviously she's busy with the holidays, but if Draco had time to slip away for a day with Harry, Narcissa might as easily have apparated to St. Mungo's for a couple hours. Or am I over-reading again?

rain206 @ December 28 2003, 22:42:18 UTC

Thanks so much for pointing this out! I would have completely missed it otherwise and it was intensely amusing.