justapresence @ April 26 2003, 10:30:25 UTC

Same here, lol. Adore Millicent.

taradiane @ April 26 2003, 11:07:14 UTC

*love* the icon!

thegirlingreen @ April 26 2003, 12:13:16 UTC um... a bit off topic ish

pardon me if my question is ignorant or something, but...

what is a w00blet?

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 12:20:22 UTC Re: um... a bit off topic ish

A very small w00bie.

taradiane @ April 26 2003, 12:52:14 UTC Re: um... a bit off topic ish

Heh. Actually I didn't think of it like that. I just started calling him that one day. I call my neice 'the kidlet', and Daniel is w00bie and became w00blet one day.

wednesday_tea @ April 26 2003, 10:30:49 UTC

Oh, thank goodness. *Still worried*

flyingcarpet @ April 26 2003, 10:33:08 UTC

I'm okay, really.

Yeah, I don't believe this for a minute. *wibbles*

justapresence @ April 26 2003, 10:35:25 UTC

He might be okay (or, at least, better than last night). Half of the fandom is going to want to send J_H cookies, LOL.

wednesday_tea @ April 26 2003, 10:40:36 UTC

I'm going to send him an e-mail, I just feel so bad.

justapresence @ April 26 2003, 10:43:32 UTC

I sent him one last night.

wednesday_tea @ April 26 2003, 11:30:08 UTC

What is his address? He deleted his journal so I can't find it. :(((

eponis @ April 26 2003, 11:34:30 UTC

potter@nocturnealley.net

wednesday_tea @ April 26 2003, 11:48:12 UTC

Thank you muchly.

ex_delz @ April 26 2003, 10:41:25 UTC

Or in Pansy's case, muffins.

flyby @ April 26 2003, 11:04:56 UTC

....because he's Harry, and he always says he's fine when someone asks, even if he's just been bitten by a basilisk or duelled Lord Voldemort or something. ::wails:: I so want to give him hugs right now.

zorb @ April 26 2003, 10:32:36 UTC

Hehe, I was just about to post that. ;-)

So we know he's not going to throw himself off a tower, and we know that Hermione knows and is sympathetic. Sounds like the Trio's back together.

I wonder if Snape will make him bring his journal back to life?

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 10:35:24 UTC

that punishment by arithmantra was harsh though. not that he doesn't totally deserve it >:(

awww, harry!!!!!! 'i love you too, sirius.' i love him so much it hurts. he is such a w00blet <33333333

justapresence @ April 26 2003, 10:36:59 UTC

The punishment was harsh. I feel sorry for PS. ;.;

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 10:42:13 UTC

It is harsh, but it may not be a bad thing for PS to have his legs kicked out from under him, to suffer a certain amount of shock and awe, so to speak. But only to get his attention. If it keeps up for more than a week, though, I agree that it would be unreasonable and counterproductive, would get in the way of PS' ability to focus on what he's done rather than on the fact that people despise him. He needs to learn from this, not just suffer. Though he should suffer, too, proportionately.

ex_delz @ April 26 2003, 10:43:54 UTC

I agree! Couldn't have said it better.

justapresence @ April 26 2003, 10:47:27 UTC

Mmmmm, it might be only me, but I think even without Professor Vector's punishments, he still had it really bad. Detentions for a week seem rather good for punishment, but what she has asked him to do doesn't really make sense to me in a way. What does he learn from cleaining and scrubbing?

Bah, am still half asleep, and this probably sounds stupid, but oh well.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 10:56:17 UTC Re:

No, it's a fair question, I think. What does anyone learn from that kind of work? That it's worth doing, that someone has to do it, and perhaps a certain measure of sympathy for people who have to do it every day, a certain erosion of the gulf of aristocratic separation that lets PS not take other people seriously. But this is secondary, I think, to the main point, which is to absolutely hammer PS because nothing else is getting through to him. My only point is that if you're hammering someone to get their attention, you sort of also have to stop once you have it, so they can reflect on what you're telling them.

taradiane @ April 26 2003, 11:10:02 UTC

Hmm. I don't think it's so much the punishments themselves, but who and where he's having to serve those punishments. House Elves? Muggle Studies Classroom? Filch (Squib)?

There's another message there. Most definitely.

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 11:19:37 UTC

Unfortunately, to ps, I think these punishments just mean humiliation. This is exactly the kind of stuff Lucius would probably think up: if he's not going to act like a Malfoy he'll be treated like something less than a Malfoy.

taradiane @ April 26 2003, 11:26:47 UTC

Yes, I agree that's how he'll see them...but I do believe her intent was pretty obvious. I think she's trying to force him into situations where he's confronted with the things he 'despises', no doubt hoping that the seed will be planted and he might one day change his heart and see those things for what they truly are.

Though, the House Elves bit might be overdoing it. You know they're going to be horrid to him, which will probably only serve to reinforce his current opinion of them.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 11:19:57 UTC Re:

Mmm, good point. Not to mention the plebeian manual labor of rowing a boat, as Maya pointed out to us in UL12 last night!

notapipe @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

black_dog @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

notapipe @ April 26 2003, 12:08:44 UTC Re: Semi-Spoiler Alert for UL 12

Which is why I deleted my comment. I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 11:23:44 UTC

What does anyone learn from that kind of work? That it's worth doing, that someone has to do it, and perhaps a certain measure of sympathy for people who have to do it every day, a certain erosion of the gulf of aristocratic separation that lets PS not take other people seriously.

But is PS really the kind of person to learn from that? I think he's likely to dispise it even more. I mean, at this point he's lost pretty much everything, so I think his metamorphical legs have already been kicked out from under him. What I would really like (not that I see it happening) is his mother being a real mother to him right now. Because the whole world being against him isn't going to teach him any good lessons.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 11:58:37 UTC Re:

Because the whole world being against him isn't going to teach him any good lessons.

Oh I agree, I think we only disagree on whether you hit him with a brick to get his attention first. And maybe that's already happened, though Millicent's report of his behavior in the Great Hall doesn't support that. And maybe he's unreachable, which would be sad.

Interesting that your advice, especially regarding Narcissa, parallels Remus'. I posted elsewhere that I think Remus is the sanest person standing, amidst this whole train wreck.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 12:18:22 UTC Re:

I read your post on Remus and agree! The sanest person is Remus. :) With a possible exception of Harry himself ;)

I do agree he must be hit with a brick to get his attention. I just don't see those detentions as a viable means to do that.
To instill some sense of equality in him against mudblood vs. pureblood prejudices? Sure! But homophobia is not going to be cured through association with house elves. I said somewhere already: even Narcissa changed her mind from association with Remus and Lupin. Not by doing housework.

As for 'real mother' comment...
I just think that no matter how adult PS is, it's pretty obvious where he learned to be homophobic. I mean, if it weren't clear as day before, he even replies to his mother, saying "you said it didn't exist". (And lets assume for the sake of the discussion that Lucius was not the more open-minded of the two).

So what happens when he follows the teachings of his parents? His mother says she's "disgusted" and his father publicly disapproves (no matter what his true motifs are). So basically, in PS's world, everything is turned on its head.
He may have expected outrage from the rest of Hogwarts, and didn't care -- it happens so often after all. But his parents he'd expected...well not to support him outright, but to at least understand where he's coming from. So when they completely don't -- I think that was the brick we're talking about. I think it already hit.
(Ignoring for the moment the Harry side of things :) )

I doubt that his behavior in the Great Hall is indicative of his inner feelings. He drops the golf clubs, like he said he would. What else is he supposed to do now?

Even if

sheron @ April 26 2003, 12:22:34 UTC part 2

wow, my post was too long so it was cut off. COntinuing from the cut-off...

Even if he regrets saying that stuff about Harry (which I'm not sure he does because he does denial so well) what's he supposed to do about it? I mean the relationship with Harry is in shreds. I don't see him thinking up ways he could make things right even if he realizes he'd made Harry's life significantly harder. Doesn't mean he's unreachable -- just that he's a 17 year old boys who doesn't know how to fix things.
There would have to be some external stimulus to shove him in the right direction.

His father already told him to apologize publicly to everyone. He may ask it for some other reason, but this provides us with something vital -- Harry and Draco will have to exchange words! :) This might be the external stimulus PS needs.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 12:42:11 UTC Re: part 2

he's a 17 year old boys who doesn't know how to fix things.

There would have to be some external stimulus to shove him in the right direction.

I love this point. Amidst all the self-serving behavior by so called "grownups," who, if anyone, is really trying to help Draco figure out his own issues, overcome his own self-hatred and self-destructiveness?

I think the Ron posts cut Draco to the heart, and may lead to some insight; (cross reference to a discussion of this issue with Sister Magpie here.)

I agree that Harry is capable of forgiveness, and that his forgiveness may prove decisive. I think M.H. could be a true friend, though right now she's in the brick-hitting stage with him. And maybe mostly Remus, as we've said. Maybe, maybe Dumbledore, though he's not an NA character as a matter of policy, I think. But boy, I really can't think of anyone else right now. And that's sad.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 12:50:49 UTC Re: part 2

I mean M.B. of course. Sorry for typo.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 13:10:00 UTC Re:

Amidst all the self-serving behavior by so called "grownups," who, if anyone, is really trying to help Draco figure out his own issues, overcome his own self-hatred and self-destructiveness?

I don't think so.

I think the Ron posts cut Draco to the heart, and may lead to some insight; (cross reference to a discussion of this issue with Sister Magpie here.)

I think so too, and I your conversation with Sister Magpie pretty much sums up my feelings as well.)
For Draco to even mention the subject of suicide... And his words "I HAVE NOTHING" and then he just goes on to rant like he's lost all sense. Veering between hatred and self-hatred. And then some time later in his argument with Ron, he stops using caps just as suddenly. (Brilliant use of emphasis by PS player, btw) "Anything else?" sounds like defeat, and right after PS said that, Remus told Ron to stop.
I think "Anything else?" was him unable to handle the sheer magnitude of everything, and just sitting there in wonder waiting for something else to go wrong and not knowing if that's even possible.

I think M.H. could be a true friend, though right now she's in the brick-hitting stage with him.

I think she's trying to tell him that it's not the end of the world, because maybe he thinks it is.

But boy, I really can't think of anyone else right now.

I find it interesting that you didn't name Narcissa. Neither would I. Dumbledore doesn't get involved so it's all up to Remus and Harry. That is sad indeed.
...I actually think in his own way Ron will also be helpful. He's already been helpful in getting

sheron @ April 26 2003, 13:10:42 UTC Re: part 2

too long again. damn, I'm rambly today.

...I actually think in his own way Ron will also be helpful. He's already been helpful in getting Draco to realize some things.
There's also Hermione who we haven't seen commenting at all. She's an unknown in all this, but obviously rational, and obviously on Harry's side. She can possibly see things as they really are -- since she's just that smart -- and provide all those logical explanations to Harry, who is more emotional and impulsive.
In the end though, it'll be up to Harry to forgive, whatever else may happen. And this forgiveness will be crucial, as you say.

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 13:09:06 UTC Re: part 2

So what happens when he follows the teachings of his parents? His mother says she's "disgusted" and his father publicly disapproves (no matter what his true motifs are). So basically, in PS's world, everything is turned on its head.

That's very much how I see it--his legs were kicked out from under him when his parents suddenly switched sides and Draco even said so. Vector correctly described the Malfoys as giving mixed messages and I think this is a big reason Draco is so screwed up. I can easily imagine Draco coming away with this situation with a kind of "learned helplessness" feeling, where he doesn't move because everything he does will be wrong. Draco must be wondering: Why is Snape suddenly angry that he insulted Potter?? Why is Narcissa suddenly disgusted at Draco saying homosexuals are to be shunned? Why is Lucius suddenly telling him to apologize to the Ginny Weasley, a girl he's said much worse things about than Draco did?

Everyone is responding to Draco as if he knows exactly what he did wrong when it's hard to believe he really does. He knows he was being mean, but hey, even I'm amazed by the backlash this has gotten (not because it isn't bad but because he's been equally nasty before). Draco seems to be making sense of it the way he always has: it's because he insulted Potter. Even his parents want him dead for that.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 13:18:20 UTC Re:

I can easily imagine Draco coming away with this situation with a kind of "learned helplessness" feeling, where he doesn't move because everything he does will be wrong.

Wow, great analogy. 'Leaned helplessness' is exactly what I think he is carrying away as a lesson right now. I can see it in his, "Anything else?" comment.

Vector correctly described the Malfoys as giving mixed messages and I think this is a big reason Draco is so screwed up.

I was really happy about her comments at first, because she seemed to be on the right track. But then those detentions... I don't think I can agree with her anymore. She seems to realize what's wrong, but not be able to change it.

Draco seems to be making sense of it the way he always has: it's because he insulted Potter. Even his parents want him dead for that.

Yes, exactly. The only way I can see him being able to integrate everyone's reactions into a coherent picture is by saying.... It's because it was Harry Potter.

princess_draco @ April 26 2003, 10:37:43 UTC

You beat me to it! lol! *points up*!

*weeps* Poor Harry :(

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 11:32:45 UTC

I think she's simply saying two wrongs (homophobia and child abuse) don't make a right. PS was wrong, Snape is wrong. People are behaving badly.

hunin_munin @ April 26 2003, 12:43:40 UTC

Yes, people are acting poorly.
Especially when Draco was already trying to fix what he had done by saying he was lying/joking about Harry being gay. I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like many quick fixes I have heard children try to give when they realise just what effect their actions have had. And in Ron's post, I think there is a perfect example of just what I am talking about. Not to mention p_s lack of response to all that affection between Cho and Ginny.
If anything, though, all those days of torment will give him plenty of time to think and stew.

slinkhard @ April 27 2003, 04:49:14 UTC

I'm glad Harry's ok.
justapresence, love the icon!
I agree with the comments above, especially with regards to Lucius -he basically called Ginny a prostitute and Arthur a child molester, but if his son embarrasses him by spouting the hatred he's taught him, he must 'justify his existence.' God, would I love to see Lucius justify his existence.
(Although, I hasten to add, it speaks well of his player how IC he is.)