oconel @ April 13 2004, 06:30:37 UTC

I'm glad that Draco was the first to post asking for him, and pushing Luping to tell him what happened.

tabiji @ April 13 2004, 06:47:23 UTC

Draco sounds actually worried. It didn't look like his attempt to talk to Harry turned into a reconciliation. Then again that might not be something they'd go into in the journals. Hopefully this show of concern will help. Unless, of course Harry becomes preoccupied with worries about what's going on with the scar. Dammit.

Lupin's icon in the comments to Draco make it look as if he's very amused at Draco's concern.

pengolodh_sc @ April 13 2004, 08:06:03 UTC

Well, Lupin's icon is the default icon, labelled himself - he has one called smirking, though he might have felt that would be a touch unfitting under the circumstances.

I note that Le Petite Seigneur Malfoy moves from being altruistic as always, via being perfect and alarmed yet composed, to noting that he often suffers unfairly. I wonder if he's trying to tell us he is being chased off by Lupin (as well as kept in the dark), and thus unfairly slighted?

dragynville @ April 13 2004, 08:08:56 UTC

I like the fact that Draco started off his line of inquiry with his worried face on.

tabiji @ April 13 2004, 09:31:27 UTC

I wonder if he knows/suspects that there's reason to worry? Except for the time he posted a page of the Prophet he's always seemed clueless about any DE activities, but we know that he was disturbed after the luncheon with some of them. With folks like the MacNairs and Notts at his party I suppose he could have gotten wind that something is in the works?

dragynville @ April 13 2004, 20:01:05 UTC

It's highly likely, you know how people are at parties. And how typical of Lucius and Narcissa to invite all those DEs to his birthday party that was supposed to be a good time with his friends. No wonder he was sulking.

Anonymous @ April 13 2004, 08:16:47 UTC

I think he is a little hurt; he sticks his neck out and is politely pushed aside.

However, it isn't a good idea to post what is happening to Harry were Certain People can see it. Draco has also caused Harry pains in the recent and not-so-recent past and Remus maybe upset with him for hurting His Pup.

tabiji @ April 13 2004, 09:27:04 UTC

Think so? I thought Remus sounded very kind and empathetic, even encouraging. Yea, he hurt Harry, but Remus is a pretty sharp guy and he can probably see that Draco was hurt too.

sistermagpie @ April 13 2004, 13:52:52 UTC

Yeah, I don't think Remus would discourage concern that Harry might appreciate coming from Draco. Like, I thought his telling Draco he would tell Harry he asked about him was assuring--appropriate signs of concern are probably the sort of thing Remus would want to reward.

Anonymous @ April 13 2004, 14:00:16 UTC

When Remus asked Draco to give his best to Narcissa, I saw that as an attempt to close the conversation. (It has been my experience that this is something people say when they are about to hang up the telephone. Sometimes it is said out of politeness, and sometimes it is genuine. In this case it might be a little of both, as Narcissa promised to come visit Remus at his shop but hasn't yet--their friendship seems to have slipped since Narcissa moved back to the Manor.)

Remus then asks if Draco shouldn't be in bed as well, in which Draco replies with the scrunched-nose, hurt-face icon.

dragynville @ April 13 2004, 20:12:58 UTC

I thought he was being very parental towards Draco in that universal way that parents tend to be towards all children. Plus, he's undoubtably tired himself and just wants to go back to watching over Harry.

dragynville @ April 13 2004, 20:17:50 UTC

I find it interesting that Remus specifically said "I'm sorry to hear you are not having a good time at home" and Draco did not deny it.

I like the way Remus is with Draco: lightly parental and subtly encouraging.

sistermagpie @ April 13 2004, 20:50:48 UTC

Yeah, that's the way he came across to me too. It's Remus who opens up the conversation by asking him how his holidays are. There was, imo, something quiet and intimate about the whole conversation. Remus was openly caring about Harry and Draco was wary but reaching out as well. Even though they weren't in the same country, I almost pictured them in the same room.

This was probably underscored by the way both of them referenced that this conversation was taking place in the middle of the night. Why are they both awake? We know why Remus is, but Draco seems troubled as well. I don't want to assume everything Draco feels comes back to Harry, but I can't help but get the feeling he's feeling some regret on that front, with this just making it worse. Remus does tell him he should be in bed, but I didn't take it so much as a, "You're bothering me, go to sleep," kind of way. I thought Draco ended the conversation after that not because he felt rejected (although I suppose he might have) but because he was maybe feeling more exposed with Remus asking why he was up. Anyway, I thought Draco withdrew himself.

Also, I can't help but love yet another reference to Draco's sleeping habits...and didn't he once tell somebody (Seamus?) that he always got 10 hours of sleep a night or something like that?

dragynville @ April 13 2004, 22:26:31 UTC

Yes, and Remus gave him further details about what had happened instead of just glossing over it or brushing him off.

I think they must have made some inroads towards reconciliation for Draco to have felt comfortable making that "you're an idiot" comment. I don't think he would have been that direct if he wasn't sure he wouldn't be completely rebuffed. He seems to talk about Harry, rather that to him, when he's unsure of his reception. I think he's probably awake and worrying about the looming Big Decision and, yes, regretting his division with Harry (talk about the worst possible time!). Maybe regretting the whole original scene?

Oh yes, he does like to make quite the point about his beauty sleep. XD

black_dog @ April 14 2004, 09:36:34 UTC

I'm fascinated by Remus' tone in this thread. For all his sweetness and encouragement, I think he's quietly very aggressive, startlingly dominant, in his conversation with Draco. And I admire the subtlety with which his player has sort of softened the edge of Remus' remarks, kept that sleepy late-night feel to them, while preserving their force.

Remus opens, of course, with a slam at Voldemort, and a pointed inquiry about how Draco is enjoying his holiday (which we know he is spending surrounded by DE families). Remus is perfectly civil, but he's responding to Draco's inquiry almost as a sort of fairy-tale gatekeeper -- What's your business here? Can you say "shibboleth?" You are not one of us. Although Remus no doubt sees through Draco's attempt to downplay his worry about Harry (and he thanks PS for his concern), he's absolutely not going to permit the conversation to happen on Draco's terms. Draco still has to establish his credentials and earn a genuine welcome.

This Draco does, in his second comment, by making his concern for Harry more explicit (in his own grudging way) and by admitting he's not enjoying his vacation. And Remus rewards him with a little more info about Harry, but also makes a point of underscoring Draco's admission that he is unhappy at home. I find this aggressive because I think any public acknowledgment of that unhappiness would make Draco feel very awkward. But Remus isn't going to allow such a big issue to be passed over discreetly. Remus then pointedly reminds Draco about his own friendship with Narcissa.

Draco replies by rather rudely declining to convey Remus' greetings to Narcissa -- He may just not be getting along with her at the moment, but he may also feel a bit pushed around by the reminder of some of Narcissa's apparent differences with Lucius, and by her own regard for Remus and Harry. Whatever the specifics, Remus has brought up a prickly issue, and Draco is squirming a bit.

Finally, in his kindest post, Remus agrees to pass along Draco's greetings to Harry. But he still isn't done pressing Draco -- he emphasizes Harry and Draco's friendship, in contrast to the way Draco refused to acknowledge Remus and Narcissa's friendship, by pointedly saying that he knows PS' greetings "will help."

Draco ends the conversation thoroughly flustered. His final remark -- "you'll have to do without my small talk" -- is not only rude; it's boorish and awkward, not at all socially smooth. PS misses a more graceful opportunity to play off Remus' suggestion that he go to bed. I think this is a sign of PS' discomfort, and suggests that Remus has kept him seriously off balance throughout the conversation.

What's happening fundamentally, I think, is that PS is trying to approach the conversation -- and perhaps implicitly, his feelings for Harry -- from a highly defended, completely safe position, hidden behind layers of irony and sarcasm and evasions of awkward topics. This is of course PS' usual way of expressing himself. But Remus isn't letting him get away with that. He's poking and probing and getting quietly in PS' face. It's as though he intends to make it clear to PS, that in Remus and Harry's world, you choose your side, you take your stand, you express yourself openly, you are true to your feelings and your loyalties. He's not being unkind to PS, because he recognizes that PS is trying. But every one of Remus' remarks seems like a probe or a test that points out some specific aspect of the emotional gulf PS would have to cross to be truly one of the "family" at Dogear.

monkiedude @ April 14 2004, 11:37:46 UTC

I agree. I read PS's use of the "often suffer unfairly" icon as a response to Remus making PS's own personal worry about Harry explicit, both to Harry and the rest of Hogwarts, when PS had tried his best to make it less patently obvious.

black_dog @ April 14 2004, 13:38:59 UTC

I think so, exactly. Look at all the things that Remus forces him to make explicit, that PS would rather dodge and evade -- that he cares for Harry, that they are friends, that he is unhappy at the manor, that he is divided from Harry over Voldemort, that there are divisions and lines of tension in his own family. It's as though Remus is extracting a tribute of emotional honesty from PS as the price of a connection, here.

sistermagpie @ April 14 2004, 21:19:50 UTC

I could not agree more with your description of Remus' tone...Remus is like the gatekeeper, but I don't feel like Draco ever gains admittance. The most he gets is that Remus will relay a message of his (Remus') choosing--that is, he will relay what Draco is really saying to Harry, but not with Draco's defensive joke. This comes right after Draco agrees to relay a message on *his* own terms (he will not give Narcissa Remus' best but the message will be gotten). Incidentally, given the tenseness of the whole conversation, I didn't take Draco's refusal to give Narcissa Remus' best rudeness just for rudeness' sake (which ps often displays). It seemed to come more out of his general wariness. Remus has just told him the truth about Harry, which presumably is what makes him "alarmed, yet composed," and inspires his joke about the whole world losing sleep. But he may also be reacting to Remus' pointed announcement that Draco is not having a good time at home, a remark with some rebuke given Draco's party and the fight he picked with Harry. In any event, it's a personal statement about Draco's life at home. So while ps is rude, I think it's also very in character for him to not not want to feel like he's rolling over for Remus. (And refreshing because because he handles everybody so well it's nice to have somebody difficult.) Plus from ps' pov, he's probably got good reason to not want to support the R/N friendship--not from a DE standpoint but just a personal one (it's a friendship that's heavily effected his life from his pov, imo, which exists with or without his blessing).

But on Remus' tone, ITA. He's not being intimidating, but he is quietly firm, making explicit everything that Draco is dancing around. It's funny, because I know somebody somewhere mentioned Draco being sweet in telling Remus to tell Harry he was thinking about him, but Draco never said that at all. Remus not only makes ps' personal feelings clear, but will not go along with his joke about Harry being a martyr or caring about what "his public" thought (of course--it's not the kind of joke about Harry Remus approves of).

Obviously ps still wants to have it both ways, to always show his affection under a cover of snarkiness while still claiming to be totally on Lucius' side. But I also feel like there's a genuine mistrust of the "other side's" motives. He feels "treated unfairly" because the other side is trying to drag feelings he wants to hide out in the open. I feel like he already feels vulnerable, assuming that his feelings are plain to see and easy to use against him, and so he may see attempts to trap him, expose him, take away his defenses he's not sure he'll be safe without.

It's not, imo, just a calculated effort to play up to Lucius and be able to disavow all feelings for Harry. I think ps is correct in knowing it would be a major act to throw his lot in with Harry's people. Obviously he's not Narcissa who seems to be able to flit back and forth (or is a superhero). ps is correct in thinking that he is the one who must change, as Harry can't and won't (and shouldn't--I think ps underneath knows that too). The closest ps gets to trying to coax Harry towards the way he was brought up is in saying Harry should not get angry when he calls Hermione a mudblood. This is a failure, as of course it would be. Harry won't even pretend to be neutral on the subject. So when it comes to Remus et al. demanding that Draco be "one of us" before he gains admittance, ps is correct to be wary. Like it or not, ps' people are Purebloods and Slytherins, not open-minded Gryffindors. Harry's family is not ps' family and if it ever came to a choice of course Remus and the others are all 100% on Harry's side. Any protection for ps would be purely conditional. The only people I'd guess ps feels are on his side are M.B., Pansy and possibly Lucius.

Remus isn't demanding all of this in this exchange, but I can understand why ps is so mistrustful of attempts to make him emotionally honest. He'll have to get over it, but I can still see why he'd be wary. Emotional honesty, to him, has dangerous implications, imo, that it doesn't to others. Making it about "the family" at DW is loaded in more ways than one.

black_dog @ April 15 2004, 04:49:26 UTC

I think we completely agree in our reading of this. Really, only two points to add:

You suggest that Draco "never gains admittance" and I agree that the conversation ends in wariness and reserve. But I do think that Draco's concessions in his second comment should not be underrated -- He's publicly acknowledged, however grudgingly, that he's sutting up worrying about Harry and that he's unhappy at home. That must have cost him tremendously, especially coming after Remus' double-barrelled attack on Voldemort, which must have presented PS with an interesting challenge as he considered how to respond. PS had the presence of mind to deflect that point while opening himself up on the big issues. I think Remus recognizes it as a significant concession and it's the only reason he engages PS seriously in the rest of the conversation.

I also agree with your portrayal of the seriousness of Draco's dilemma -- you make a number of points about why Draco needs, in his own self-interest, to be wary here. I think Draco was probably shocked that he made his concession on Harry and his home life, only to have Remus give him nothing soothing in return. Remus simply took the points, underscored them, and left them out there, clearly in public view. In normal conversational give-and-take, you would recognize when someone had extended themselves and say something reassuring or supportive, but Remus continues to press Draco, which is why I think Draco ends up feeling overextended and very uncomfortable.

But as much as I agree with your analysis of what Draco is feeling, I also think Draco needs this kind of challenge and confrontation. Remus is doing what Harry has never been willing to do -- put Voldemort first and foremost in the consideration of whether a relationship is possible. The huge unspoken weak point in Draco and Harry's relationship is that they both seem to be avoiding facing up to the logical consequences of their respective loyalties -- Harry denies he wants to change Draco, Draco refuses to be seriously introspective. So it's about time someone forced the issue and created some awkwardness. And I think Remus has done it in a perfectly calibrated way. He hasn't pressed PS in a way that's too much for PS to bear, but he's genuinely rattled him, given him something to think about.

I liked the follow-up in the thread from both Harry and Draco, although there's too little of it to bear much analysis. Harry seems to have been initally still a bit cold -- "I'm fine" -- but to have regretted that a moment later with his second "Thanks for asking" post. I'm glad he could acknowledge Draco's concern personally, and I'm glad that Draco, even after the whole encounter, could acknowledge Harry's acknowledgment, even if his "I am so giving" remark still sounds long-suffering and a little rattled. There may be hope for these two, yet.

sistermagpie @ April 15 2004, 14:45:50 UTC

Yes--ITA. Draco obviously does need somebody else to press the issue, and I think he must even realize this on some level by now given the way he responds. With ps you always have to remember how bad he *could* be in any situation, and the fact that he sticks it out the extent that he does is surprising. Like, Draco is in a small way having to claim his own territory in asking Lupin what's up with Harry. He knows he's coming to Remus as Harry's friend, something I doubt he's ever done before.

He continues to ask about Harry after Remus throws out the Voldemort issue, which shows a desire to understand something of Harry's bond to him and what that feels like that I don't think he's ever shown seriously. He and M.B. have brought up the scar hurting before, but it seemed like then it was more of a joke about Harry's constant problems. I couldn't at all say just how much Draco's been thinking about the DE issue, but this kind of interest does seem more significant coupled with things like his reading up on Nazis. He seems like he's taking the first steps towards dealing with the reality of the situation where he never did before.

I loved that Harry's response was split up--first there's thanks to Remus for Remus for telling Harry ps was thinking of him (which on one level is just polite for the info and another is grateful to Remus for forcing it into those words). But then I love that he first just says, "I'm fine," to ps, which could be a combination of chilliness in response to the fight (perhaps with a hint of "Are you making fun of me?") and also part of Harry's own instinct to not show anything personal or weak on the journals. But then he adds the second post to make an effort of his own, making the point that what he appreciates is Draco asking about him (which is what you do when you like a person), and keeping the communications lines more open. I liked that Draco was still using his "treated unfairly" icon with his joke about being giving, first because it softened the joke, making it a bit more of a guilty admission that he doesn't like to give rather than his more full-blown pretense of noblesse oblige. More importantly, imo, it again validated the real emotions he'd been forced to put on display. That is, he wasn't snapping back into, "Yes, I am very giving in showing concern for people far beneath me, like you." The icon, for me, made it more of a, "Yes, I really do care and it gets used against me." (You make me suffer for it, you pretend you don't know it, etc.) He's very much admitting that he's the one doing the crawling here, I think, and he probably hates that. I think this is kind of his fear of what he'll be reduced to by this relationship: begging for attention and affection because he likes Harry so much more than Harry likes him.

I wonder, too, if Harry's two response show the beginning of some kind of dawning realization in him. In the past he has seen signs that Draco likes him, but he also takes his claims he doesn't seriously so he was confused. We know there are times when Harry sees through his facade, like when ps claims not to have been scared by something. But maybe this kind of exchange would make Harry begin to consider reading Draco's actions differently. His second post thanking him for asking might be an attempt to test that a little. Like the first one acknowledges ps' interest, and the second post presses it a little ("You asked because you cared about me, right?") and Draco's response is a little defensive but also positive.

Bottom line: ps is the one who is openly miserable, he spoke to Harry first and now he's been the one to speak to Harry first *nicely* (as opposed to calling him an idiot) to say he cares. Seems to me what happened in this fight was that Draco laid out a challenge and he lost. ps tested Harry's limits and wound up not only not getting Harry to submit on anything but conceding stuff beyond that. I think that shows ps is pretty serious about this relationship and won't go down without a fight. If ps is ever able to accept his own feelings for Harry and own them he might be a force to be reckoned with.

black_dog @ April 15 2004, 17:39:34 UTC

I generally agree but I'm starting to feel this analysis gives Draco a bit too much credit. Do I contradict myself? *mutters about containing multitudes*

Yes, PS took a risk and extended himself, and I didn't want to pass over that, but at the same time it seems rather Draco-ish to make too much of it, either, to pat Draco on the back excessively for it. "You make me suffer . . . " Yes but if he's suffering because of a well-earned sacrifice of his excessive pride, how tragic is that? "I like you, and the proof of how much I like you is that I really really hate admitting it but I'm doing it anyway, so isn't that a magnificent demonsration of my friendship?" A well-adjusted person gets tired of this. I give him credit for movement, for bending, but I don't want to overvalue the gesture itself. It's still objectively kind of lame, even if it's a big deal for PS.

And I think the reason I'm feeling a little bit harsher about this is that I've been thinking about Harry and Remus' later exchange at the hotel in Italy. I was a little puzzled about Remus' tone at first, but when Harry closed the conversation with a brutal backhanded mockery of Draco's "I am so giving," I realized that they were both probably alluding to Draco's personal style, his inisistence that it's such an enormous effort to be a reasonable human being, to make the slightest effort for another person. And if they're both making fun of Draco's self-pity and self-dramatization, then that would mean they have been talking about him, which I think is probably a very good thing for Harry.

It sounds like, just as Remus might have been trying to push Draco out of his pattern of emotional camouflage, he may also be trying to push Harry out of the habit of tolerating that camouflage, to encourage Harry to judge that sort of behavior in Draco just as he would in another person. So we have Remus acting out a PS-persona to make Harry laugh -- "You really ought to thank me, for sparing your life . . . and sacrificing so much time . . . I am a veritable hero . . . I am so long-suffering in my endless devotion . . . Nevertheless I endure . . . suffering many wounds . . . All for you."

And the most brutal part is that Harry connects this sort of behavior up with the Dursleys, who also constantly reminded him that they were "so giving." If I were Draco and saw that last comment of Harry's, I'd feel kicked in the teeth. And then maybe I'd think about it. Because in the normal world, people who care about each other express concern because they are concerned, and stay focused on the object of their concern rather than the extraordinary effort they are making to express it.

So Remus is maneuvering with both Harry and Draco, and is maybe trying to lead them out of their folie-a-deux, which has become stalemated anyway, and is trying to wake them up, confronting them aggressively with the measuring rod of normal social behavior. I don't mean to sound Victorian, but somebody needs to buck these two up, to snap them out of their mutually-enabled sulks. And I can't think of a better person to do it than Remus.

sistermagpie @ April 15 2004, 23:46:04 UTC

I didn't actually think we were patting him on the back!:-) I thought we were just pointing out that Draco faced a situation where his usual ultra-defensiveness didn't work and so he made a slight adjustment rather than giving up. He threw a tantrum, and he lost and had to be the one to make a concession. I think this states something about Draco not wanting to let go of the relationship-we don't yet know how far he would go for it. So far he hasn't had to do much. I thought it was just a sign that h/d was still on the boards, ps hadn't totally blown it yet. I do wonder if this might make Harry take Draco's elaborate shows of dislike as more of a cover (since in the past he seemed hurt that Draco actually didn't like him), but that's all I could see on Harry's end. That would be nice for him.

And I think the reason I'm feeling a little bit harsher about this is that I've been thinking about Harry and Remus' later exchange at the hotel in Italy. I was a little puzzled about Remus' tone at first, but when Harry closed the conversation with a brutal backhanded mockery of Draco's "I am so giving," I realized that they were both probably alluding to Draco's personal style, his inisistence that it's such an enormous effort to be a reasonable human being, to make the slightest effort for another person. And if they're both making fun of Draco's self-pity and self-dramatization, then that would mean they have been talking about him, which I think is probably a very good thing for Harry.

Hmm. Okay, this is one of these times when we just read it totally differently. I didn't think Remus and Harry were making fun of Draco at all--if they were I don't think that would be very good, actually. I can't see Draco reacting well to Harry and an adult making fun of him together.

I thought Remus was just being silly and OTT because he was rebounding after Harry's bad night--now they're in Italy and it's Sirius' birthday and things are good and he's about to have sex so he's joking with Harry about it (keep busy with the Playstation while I shag your godfather, kid). I took his claims that he was doing it for Harry as just a light joke playing off of Harry's post.

Harry did reference ps' comment but I think I took that to mean it was just in his mind, and even possibly a good thing. I mean, Draco's "gift" was that he showed concern over Harry, which isn't a big deal for most people but it's exactly what the Dursleys wouldn't give Harry. I can't really equate Draco's OTT claims of altruism when he has to go without socks or even in this situation with the Dursleys telling 8-year-old Harry he's a parasite. I mean, Draco's comments are all about himself and his vanity, not attempts to make Harry feel like shit. (When he does say things to make Harry feel like shit he usually takes a different route.) If Harry was just now coming to the conclusion that Draco was like the Dursleys I'd be surprised--surely Harry thought Draco was like the Dursleys when he first met him and that's changed, it would seem to me.

So, I thought Harry's echoing of Draco's post was unintentional, but if there was a subconscious reason for it it was just that maybe it was in his mind. In general I thought Harry sounded pretty up--and that was before his mad rhyming. I wouldn't trace back every happy mood of Harry's to ps, but I don't think it's out there to suggest ps' show of concern could add to his good mood. Now he's got Italy and his godfathers, plus something good happened with Draco after weeks of it all being pretty bad...I'd say Harry could just be in a playful mood, joking with everybody. In rhyme.

black_dog @ April 16 2004, 02:17:04 UTC

Hmm. Okay, this is one of these times when we just read it totally differently.

LOL, well, you know we were agreeing on too much! It's more interesting this way. :)

I guess my reading rests heavily on Harry's use of the phrase "they were so giving." Try as I might, I just can't read it as anything but a slap at Draco. It just feels really harsh. And Harry's sarcasm there sensitized me to the way that Harry and Remus, in their initial teasing, were both playing off the theme of long-sufferingness and self-pity. I had the first reaction to Remus that you did -- that he was just being his usual OTT self with the teasing. But it's an unusual way for him to tease -- he does mock-derision, he does mock-menace, but if I'm not mistaken he usually doesn't do that intense kind of mock-self-pity or sense of having been hard done by. So I sort of tried the hypothesis that it was a specific allusion to Draco's tone, and I felt it sort of fit. Still do! I mean, too, that PS would be a natural thing for Harry and Remus to talk about after the previous night's thread, and this kind of mockery would be a reasonable take for Remus to have on Draco's particular brand of performance art.

Harry's giddiness may have something to do with Draco, but I think it's more than adequately explained by Remus and Sirius being together and the three of them taking a trip as a family -- this is what Harry has always, always wanted and if I'm not mistaken this is the first time, since the very early days of the wedding, that he's had it. I loved that Draco made the effort to chime in on the rhyming game, and Harry certainly held his own with him. I'm not sure what to make of Harry's final "Okay" to Draco -- is it a show of affection that he worked one of their special words into the game, or was it a kind of dismissal when Draco's remarks got too sour? I get the sense that Harry was feeling confident because of his happiness over Remus and Sirius, was perfectly willing to play with Draco, and was perfectly, almost chillingly willing to dismiss him when he signalled a threat to go away. Maybe PS would have done better to just send that owl?

But I definitely give PS additional points for playing -- he usually doesn't lower himself like that, to play on someone else's terms, and it was another significant gesture. I think we probably both feel that things are still asymmetrical, though, that Draco is at a disadvantage because Harry is doing OK with or without him.

And I guess my (provisionally) shifting position on PS is that maybe this is a good thing. Maybe to the extent that he's been hooked, the good guys need to pull on the line, need to start aggressively draw Draco in, because, really, time is running out. And maybe it's time for Harry -- and perhaps for us, as readers -- to be less willing to cherish Draco's small gestures, to be less willing to acknowledge his progress on his own, excruciatingly slow terms, and instead to start hoping for bigger changes, faster. Because if those changes don't happen, and soon, I think Harry is ready to move on, and Draco is positioned to be stuck permanently in his DE milieu. It really is decision time for him.

black_dog @ April 16 2004, 03:14:30 UTC

I can't really equate Draco's OTT claims of altruism when he has to go without socks or even in this situation with the Dursleys telling 8-year-old Harry he's a parasite.

Just one additional point in response to this. It's true that there's not necessarily an equivalence here. But it's always useful to go back to the question of what the Dursley's taught Harry to expect from the world and what to think of himself. Has he really ever gotten completely over that? For all of Harry's strength and competence, there is of course an often-observed undercurrent in his personality of keeping his head down unless directly challenged, of not going out of his way to assert himself day-to-day or to insist on his own right to be happy. He's learned to be self-sufficient and to expect little from other people.

But what kind of impact does this have on how he behaves in a romantic relationship? Is that really the place for low expectations? I wonder if Harry's patience with Draco is in some ways a bad thing, and if Draco unconsciously pushes buttons that were activated in the first instance by the Dursleys. When Harry denies he's been trying to change Draco, we (or maybe just I) have been too quick to accept Draco's terms here, to see this as an appropriate show of respect for Draco. Remus' role, then, would be to encourage Harry to feel that he had the right to expect more from Draco, and to act more aggressively on those feelings. Stressful for the relationship, and maybe particularly stressful for Draco, but good for them both in the long term, if things work out.

sistermagpie @ April 16 2004, 16:04:37 UTC

Hmmm. You make good points. Only it sounds like there's two separate things here, if Lupin is indeed intentionally mocking ps' elaborate self-pity (which I just can't help but be amazed at the irony of Lupin mocking somebody else for this) and Harry is getting on board and criticizing Draco as being the same as the Durlseys.

On the one hand there's the idea that Harry should start asking for more from Draco in his romance, and that the good guys need to actively reel Draco in if it is to continue. This would be a good thing--though I don't feel like I can be sure how much this is a romance from Harry's pov yet. In the Q&A Harry takes the position that he and ps just hang out when it's amusing for them. If it's that casual he couldn't demand a switch in loyalty for his sake from the pov of a ps who thought Harry was just passing the time with him until he lost interest. (In general it would probably be better if any switch in loyalty was not dependent on "for love of Harry" because that doesn't seem very healthy-seems like ps needs to make a decision based on something other than pleasing his object of affection.) Both of them would have to let down their defenses and openly have a relationship that was less than casual. I'm not saying this is how it is, but that's the last direct word we had on how serious their relationship was.

I myself obviously agree that Draco's behavior should just change. But I don't think that would come from Harry casting him in the role of the Dursleys. Harry reacts to Draco's behavior differently than, say, M.B., and his upbringing probably plays a large part in that. But if they were really going to communicate it would have to be a compromise where they both came to understand how the other's upbringing effected their behavior and what they expected of people. Harry doesn't expect much of others, but neither does Draco. Harry withdraws unsatisfied and Draco lashes out. But it's not helpful for either one to cast the other in the role of the people who raised them when the other person has no way of understanding that role. If they understood each other more maybe they'd have an easier time getting the other to change. Both of them accuse the other of deciding what he thinks and not believing his own accounting of his actions.

Then there's the totally separate issue of Harry and Remus elaborately mocking Draco together, which is to show Draco what he's in for on the other side. Wouldn't hearing two people intentionally mock you behind your back so that you can hear them make you feel like you would never be part of their family? I mean, that's how mean girls in jr. high enforce conformity. I don't see how having Remus as a mother-in-law in that light is any kind of incentive. Remus as a character is completely unassailable. I wouldn't be drawn in by the prospect of a partner who brought with him a protector ready to step in and fulfill whatever emotional role was needed when I got too difficult, and support my partner's pov. Remus is a far more dominant figure in Harry's life here than he is in canon, combining spheres of influence from many of the major canon characters as well his own (by which I don't mean he tells Harry what to do). I've no doubt he could probably fix everything in this relationship so it runs smoothly but I've enjoyed ps/jh by ps/jh and resist any other character manipulating it.

I mean, we've talked about how ps needs to grow up and get away from his parents and he does, but Harry still often seems anywhere between 8 and 12 when he's at home. There are *some* situations in which ps acts older than Harry, imo, and maybe that's something we should consider on the DE issue. Draco *has* changed since 5th year. Whether he's changing quickly enough or in the right direction to save himself isn't clear, but I don't feel like this character is ever completely static at this point. He even rather laid the DE issue out in the open. I don't mean to suggest Draco was really being mature in this thread and trying to open up the issue, but nevertheless it's presented and Harry just says Draco's being stupid.

black_dog @ April 17 2004, 23:04:13 UTC

Lots to react to here -- forgive a slightly scattershot reply.

I don't feel like I can be sure how much this is a romance from Harry's pov yet.

I guess my read is that Harry has pretty strong feelings but he holds them in check, largely for fear of disappointment. I think it's pretty clear that he was infatuated, during the time leading up to the attempted kiss, and he says in the Q and A that his feelings haven't changed, though it's not clear if this refers to an attraction or to a broader infatuation. But given the intensity of his ongoing reaction to Draco I have a hard time believing that this has been a casual thing for Harry, despite appearances. Even if he decides there is no future in the relationship, that's going to be an upsetting choice for him, I think.

In general it would probably be better if any switch in loyalty was not dependent on "for love of Harry" because that doesn't seem very healthy-seems like ps needs to make a decision based on something other than pleasing his object of affection.

Well, but I'm not sure these are stark alternatives. In this case, it depends what the relationship means for Draco. If we assume that Draco is a centered person who is just sort of dallying with Harry, then yes, it would be kind of superficial for him to change his life for the sake of the object of such mild feelings. But if we assume that Draco is a deeply unhappy, deeply confused person, and that the fact that Harry loves him is an epoch for him, then the change of loyalty could be an organic part of the new emotional world that opens up to him through a relationship with Harry. I certainly agree that the relationship is not fully realized yet, but the issues may be connected -- what's at stake in both the H/D and the DE-loyalty issues is whether Draco can allow himself to be an emotionally healthy person who can truly connect with people, or whether he remains in an emotionally stunted condition where he sees and uses people as objects. So it's not so much a tactical switch of loyalties like switching a baseball team, it's more about Draco's own emotional development, about building a life for himself where the parts hang together and have some integrity.

Then there's the totally separate issue of Harry and Remus elaborately mocking Draco together, which is to show Draco what he's in for on the other side. Wouldn't hearing two people intentionally mock you behind your back so that you can hear them make you feel like you would never be part of their family?

Depends on the intention behind the mocking. Sometimes, the purpose of mocking is a kind of test -- can you laugh at yourself? Do you take yourself too seriously? And the way is open to a reconciliation if you can see where the mockers are coming from. "Behind his back" is a weird term on the journals, because the mockery was actually public for Draco to see and perhaps indirectly meant for him to see. I don't think the purpose of the mockery here is to hurt Draco and drive him away; I think, as is more usual with mockery, that its purpose is to uphold certain norms, and to establish that certain kinds of behavior are beyond the bounds of what reasonable people accept, even if they find themselves doing it sometimes (and in need of correction.) Does that make sense?

[. . . continued]

black_dog @ April 17 2004, 23:04:50 UTC

[. . . continued]

I wouldn't be drawn in by the prospect of a partner who brought with him a protector ready to step in and fulfill whatever emotional role was needed when I got too difficult

I can definitely see that, but is that quite fair to Remus? I think Remus has always been willing to take Draco seriously and treat him with consideration, though that is not the same thing as indulging him and refusing to criticize him. I think that to the extent that it's humanly possible, Remus has enough tact and judgment not to be a "mother in law" in too oppressive a way, and to the extent that there might be some occasional leanings in that direction, that's just life and something anyone in Draco's position has to deal with.

I've enjoyed ps/jh by ps/jh and resist any other character manipulating it.

This, I think is a really strong and interesting point, and I thought about it for a while. Certainly in a traditional story about love or a quest or becoming a hero or growing up or whatever, the point is the transformations that the characters make by the growth of their own insight -- you don't necessarily want the hero taken in hand by a mentor who does everything for him and dryly explains what the lesson was. But I don't know if Remus could really "fix everything" in a moment if he chose to, and I'm not sure that getting advice, that seeking outside sources of insight, really compromises the drama of Draco and Harry's own development. I mean, they could certainly use some advice if they don't start figuring out some things quicker. And they are young enough that it is reasonable for them to be bumbling, and potentially tragic, in the absence of guidance. I think their integrity is maintained as long as they are free to accept or reject any advice, as long as they are not simply taken in hand by someone more experienced.

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 03:01:05 UTC

I think it's pretty clear that he was infatuated, during the time leading up to the attempted kiss, and he says in the Q and A that his feelings haven't changed, though it's not clear if this refers to an attraction or to a broader infatuation.

Oh, I agree Harry is probably being very controlled--but if they're both pretending it's casual then each one probably believes the other's act. I don't think infatuation would have that much value for Harry compared to something he thought was really love. I'm sure he cares about Draco, but I think he's also got clear lines he knows he can't cross for him.

Well, but I'm not sure these are stark alternatives. In this case, it depends what the relationship means for Draco.

Yes, there ITA. His relationship w/Harry and his friends should, if Draco's to be any kind of a good person, be a big factor in making him question his loyalties. It would just be less stable if he did things to please Harry for an immediate reward.

Depends on the intention behind the mocking. Sometimes, the purpose of mocking is a kind of test -- can you laugh at yourself?

It's just that if this was supposed to be an imitation of Draco, it seems too off to me. Draco pretends to elaborately suffer in general and occasionally claims to be charitable, but he doesn't claim to sacrifice for Harry the way Remus was spoofing, imo-that's a very specific way of acting Remus was mocking, and not quite what ps does with Harry. Unless Remus was spoofing the reality of Draco and not his act-that he can suffer or do things for Harry, or he was spoofing Draco's own spoofs on himself, but that seems an odd thing to mock.

I can definitely see that, but is that quite fair to Remus? I think Remus has always been willing to take Draco seriously and treat him with consideration, though that is not the same thing as indulging him and refusing to criticize him.

I wasn't really referring to Lupin criticizing Draco being a problem, actually--that, I think, would be fine.

I think their integrity is maintained as long as they are free to accept or reject any advice, as long as they are not simply taken in hand by someone more experienced.

I would worry if Remus' experience led to advice modeled on his own marriage, but in general advice is often good to give/seek/take. I'm not saying Remus should never give advice, just not yet seeing why his advice was so needed right then. When it comes to the DEs Lupin will always want to do everything to keep Harry protected. But on a personal level, it doesn't seem like not being demanding enough is the point right now, since at the moment Harry's already standing his ground. Draco's repeated overtures haven't made him give in on the issue; he's already waiting for an apology from Draco. He seems disappointed not to have gotten it, but he's not settling for less. So what I mean is, that wouldn't break their stalement because that is their stalemate.

I wonder if the attacks on the Weasleys will spur something on their own. I don't know if he'd demand anything from Draco about this, but it's got to be the main focus for Harry right now. What will he make of the Malfoy's thread where they plan tea and discuss current events? What questions does Lucius have for Draco? Is there a reason Draco is "delightfully dark" when he asks Lucius if he's coming to tea? The game seems to have very carefully divided the camps by having stuff happen over Easter. Draco doesn't taunt the Weasleys as his parents do, but it's a Malfoy thread.

I've absolutely no idea what Draco's reaction to this is or what his thoughts are on DEs. That's probably very significant considering this is a character who usually has a hard time hiding his feelings, don't you think? How clueless is he? How indifferent? I assume he's recorded all his own contact with DEs (times when he's had dinner at the Notts, seeing people at his party) but the only one that seemed all that emotional was the very first lunch. After that it seemed maybe just a general feeling of being treated like a grown-up by Father. I've just no idea how he feels about something like this. Yet Lucius' first order of business after it is to ask him questions.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 09:00:08 UTC

just not yet seeing why his advice was so needed right then . . . Harry's already standing his ground . . . that wouldn't break their stalement because that is their stalemate.

That's a fair point, and I don't have a slam-dunk answer to it. Still, for all Harry's strength in taking a hard line on demanding an apology for the "mudblood" remark, it still could be that Remus feels Harry doesn't have an adequate understanding of what is wrong with the relationship. Harry wants to criticize Draco's inconsideration toward his friends, but is still at pains to insist he doesn't want to change Draco. There's a contradiction here, as Draco himself observes. Remus' point could be that he does have a right to push Draco to change.

But events are outpacing this discussion!

I wonder if the attacks on the Weasleys will spur something

That was all I could think of! My first thought, perhaps oddly, was how would Draco face Ron after this? Because I really do think that a kind of comfortable tolerance, at least, has grown up between them despite the hard teasing. Would PS be normally inclined to feel sadness and offer condolences? And how must he feel knowing his own associates were probably responsible for this, and knowing that Ron knows it? Perhaps because it is a connection of Ron's who has been murdered, and only a second-level connection of Harry's (I mean, compared to Remus or Sirius or Ron himself, any of whose deaths would shatter Harry) PS has the chance to feel shocked and confused about the murder without being completely overwhelmed by its impact on Harry.

What questions does Lucius have for Draco? Is there a reason Draco is "delightfully dark" when he asks Lucius if he's coming to tea?

I definitely read Lucius' question as part of an effort to see if Draco was still on the reservation. Particularly since we know Draco has been unhappy at the Manor, perhaps alienated from the atmosphere there. And I thought there was a kind of junior-Lucius malice, or perhaps just hostility mitigated by terrified caution, in Draco's series of posts in reply to his parents. He's actually quite icy and subtly aggressive -- he gives away nothing when his mother asks how he feels, he pointedly asks his father to join them, he declares on his own initiative that they have "much to talk about," and when his mother suggests that the Weasley attack will be "interesting to talk about" Draco's response is to "quite agree." I read this as as tough a message to Lucius as Draco dares to send, that Lucius has some explaining to do. And I read Lucius' "I quite look forward to hearing your thoughts" as "You try it, boy," but also a recognition of Draco's coldness and potential threat. I do think there's conflict here between Draco and Lucius, potentially major conflict, and it will be fascinating to see what happens.

I'm also really intrigued by PS' possible reaction to some of the stuff on the Hooch-Sinistra thread. "When Drakiedo gets tortured instead" -- that's got to leave a chill. "One day your son is going to annoy the wrong person." Perhaps its a reminder that there is no safe spot in this battle, not even with Lucius after all. And the theme of Sinistra's remarks to Narcissa, in particular, is about how you can't have it both ways, how you can't be cute about your "associates" and your apparently divided loyalties, which must have some resonance for Draco as well. I'm not sure this is entirely fair to Narcissa (as usual, I love Narcissa because I have no idea, whatsoever, what her game is or what side she's on). But the pressure is on!

Finally, of course, there are Remus' remarks -- his wonderful "Fuck You" denunciation of Malfoy, with its closing observation that he is leading Draco down the same path and is worthless as a father. Interesting that these allusions to Draco come at the climactic point in Remus' diatribe. And after the other night, Remus is not just "anybody" to Draco or even just an associate of Harry's -- he's someone who's probed PS, gotten under his skin, provoked him to acknowledge some hard things. In an odd way, Draco has to see that Remus' ferocity in this comment also reflects a protective instinct toward PS himself.

So the boy has a lot to think about.

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 18:58:14 UTC

Weird-I thought I replied to this but the comment isn't there! Anyway, I only replied to some of it and then figured I'd start over in the thread about ps' post since we seem to have entered a new chapter in the saga!

Narcissa is hard to read here, since on one hand she's defending Lupin against Lucius, but then that's business as usual, but on the other her expressions of sympathy are such salt in the wounds (intentional or not). Lupin's post to Lucius goes over all their own territory, though the new element is saying what Lucius is going to do to Draco. That comment shows Lupin does see Draco being led this way while still being basically innocent (as opposed to saying he and his rotten son are both awful, he says Draco will be forced to follow this road in future). He criticizes Lucius as a father but doesn't criticize Narcissa as being part of this while Sinistra does.

I think I got a lot of the same impressions from Draco's posts to his parents as you did. He's very much on board with Narcissa's fashion talk, but I think that's often a safe subject for ps, one that he's genuinely interested in and can talk about without having a hidden meaning. It's a bit like Quidditch that way, I think. But when he was speaking with his parents I did get the feeling he was being very careful and I admit I was watching to see if he would respond to Lucius' final overtures about family being important now and really wanting to hear Draco's comments on recent events. I was happy when he didn't respond to them. We know from the other thread that Draco really isn't looking forward to facing Harry and Ron, so he is dealing with the conflict of loyalties here-or at least he knows something horrible has happened that he must deal with whenever he sees them. What would Lucius want to question him about? Harry and his friends seem pretty much the only thing ps could offer him any kind of information on.

Is Lucius just testing him for the correct reaction to this? Because Draco is obviously making a point of not giving a reaction to it publically and I have a hard time imagining him really being honest about how it makes him feel to his parents. If he doesn't want to face Harry and Ron, it seems like he feels some shame--hopefully it's acute! And what is it that Draco "told" somebody so about? Did he predict something big was going on, maybe to M.B. since she's the one who responds to that comment? And what form did what he said take? Was it a warning of some kind, or just a comment about what was really going on during his party? A prediction that the Weasleys were being targetted? We don't even know when he said whatever he said. Is this connected to his being up late that night with Lupin? Was he worried, perhaps, that Harry was being targetted? Could he possibly have thought he was avoiding whatever it was by not inviting Harry and Ron?

Anonymous @ April 13 2004, 08:11:34 UTC

I love Draco's word choices in his not-so-veiled attempted to pump Remus for information.

~I think his use of "the world" means he's talking about himself.

~I think he's lonely or unhappy at The Manor.

~He says that his Mother will be reading Remus's new post sometime the next day and she will see that Draco is concerned about Harry; yet this doesn't seem to bother him in the slightest. Draco doesn't seem to see his Mother has a threat to his going's-on with Harry; whatever they were and are.

vassilissa @ April 13 2004, 09:35:14 UTC

Awwwww. I don't usually want to hug Harry all that much, but I did after reading Lupin's post.

And I am SO proud of Draco for asking Lupin to tell Harry he'd been asking about him. {{{{{Draco}}}}}

I am so overinvolved in this soap RPG.

oneminutemovies @ April 13 2004, 13:36:08 UTC

Absolutely. Not only asking Lupin to express his concern, but the whole thing is unprecedented. Draco must be out of his mind with worry to break cover like this.

vassilissa @ April 14 2004, 00:21:36 UTC

I wouldn't go as far as out of his mind with worry, and I don't think he really broke cover that much. But it is unprecedented that he reached out to Lupin, usually not one of his favourite people.

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lazy_daze @ April 13 2004, 14:38:42 UTC

WAH that is the cutest thing evah. Ickle worried Draco. I have nothing constructive to say except AWWWW.

Anonymous @ April 13 2004, 15:03:42 UTC

Currently my holidays are being spent asking you about Potter in the middle of the night

Awwwwwwwww. So nice to see that PS does have a heart. =D

vassilissa @ April 14 2004, 04:03:56 UTC Harry replies

Eee eee eeeee!!!!!

Anonymous @ April 14 2004, 05:23:52 UTC Re: Harry replies

Methinks this is the beginning of a beautiful--oh, who am I kidding? I just hope they become friends again.

oconel @ April 14 2004, 07:09:10 UTC Re: Harry replies

just_friends?

allthat_jazz @ April 14 2004, 14:52:11 UTC Re: Harry replies

And PS replies. With his cute little "I often suffer unnfairly" icon.

pengolodh_sc @ April 14 2004, 10:23:22 UTC

Now Harry, Sirius and Remus had better get themselves off to Italy quickly - if Molly is not convinced of Lupin's and Black's parenting-abilities, she might determine to descend upon them with soup if they have not already made good their escape.