oconel @ April 18 2004, 16:34:43 UTC

Why do I have the feeling it wasn't an accident?

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 16:38:10 UTC

I really thought it was only me who had that exact same thought. I think its paranoid induced from Lucius' 'replacement' comment...But it definately seems suspicious, espeically as he says he can usually tell when its invisible rather than it having disappeared.

oconel @ April 18 2004, 16:43:05 UTC

I didn't like yesterday's chat between Draco an Lucius. Narcissa was too worried.

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 16:53:18 UTC

EEk!!! Narcissa says: "You are always so supportive of me, Draco. " NOT. GOOD. DE undertones I think.

oconel @ April 18 2004, 16:56:52 UTC

I tell you what. We're paranoids...

I'm worried about Draco.

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:03:45 UTC

I think that has to be a sign of obsession with NA, that and the abuse of the refresh button.

oconel @ April 18 2004, 17:06:53 UTC

Wait a minute

*presses F5*

Do you think Lucius is planning to put the Dark Mark on Draco before he goes back to Hogwarts?

I'm paranoid, definitely

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 17:09:16 UTC

WAH WHERE ARE YOU LOOKING?

oconel @ April 18 2004, 17:12:42 UTC

At Draco's icon (I am a model son) and I wonder what Lucius wanted to ask him yesterday.

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 17:17:47 UTC

Oh god. He had a business meeting this morning...

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:27:52 UTC

I assumed the business meeting was to do with all the Weasley stuff. But maybe thats just what we're meant to be thinking...

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:11:36 UTC

No, no, no, no!!! He goesback to Hogwarts on Monday, thats not enough time surely! And Lucius would have made some reference to different 'business associates' I think, rather than the current 'loose ends' stuff he is up to at the moment.

Right???

Although Sally-Anne is from Durmstrang and is therefore Evil, and maybe her staying fo rthe holidays was some plan to make Draco more Evil too??? Okay, now I have no idea!!

vassilissa @ April 19 2004, 01:50:23 UTC

And now Lucius is sending a spy/chaperone/house elf back to Hogwarts with Draco. One loyal to him and taking his orders. To supervise Draco and make sure he doesn't do anything sensible, like joining the Good Side or making things up with Harry. And to do who knows what else - I do *not* like the idea of a creature with powerful magic and absolute obedience to Lucius loose in Hogwarts.

frozen_jelly @ April 19 2004, 14:46:00 UTC

Why is it whenever I think, oh look Lucius is doing something nice for his son, he is actually being really shrewd and calculating and downright evil. Would Dumbledore allow PS to have his very own house elf, knowing all that he does about Lucius and the Malfoy? I can see a post of the kind 'Dumbledore took away my house-elf, my life is so hard'.

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 16:40:02 UTC

It seems almost like the house is kind of...turning against him? *lightning, thunder, ect.* The portrait thing too, we never did get any information on what happened there, did we?

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 16:40:49 UTC

Portrait thing?

*is worried*

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 16:42:46 UTC

If I remember correctly, the Malfoy family portraits had uh...portrait-napped the painting of Draco and hidden it somewhere. Narcissa couldn't get them to give it back, and I don't think they ever found it.

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 16:45:26 UTC

eek! That does not bode well for Draco, knowing the importance of heritage and tradion to he Malfoys, with the portrait(s) being an embodiment of that.

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 16:48:40 UTC

Yeah, exactly. I keep thinking about how the portraits see everything, but no one really notices that they're around. Maybe the family portraits know something about Draco that goes against the Malfoy tradition. Or maybe not, there's never quite enough information to tell. :D I love this RPG.

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 16:51:36 UTC

Wow, good point. I never even considered the 'portraits are people too' thing. OT: Also, loving your icon!

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 16:54:00 UTC

Or at least like Security cameras. *shiver*

Thanks! The lovely capricioussylph made it for me!

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:05:50 UTC

So portraits and similar framed pictures are the CCTV of the magical world!

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 17:10:03 UTC

*snicker* Haha, yeah, I like that. In a wibble sort of way, of course

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:15:51 UTC

Today is the day of Wibble. Wah.

oconel @ April 18 2004, 17:17:46 UTC

*wibbles*

comava @ April 18 2004, 16:42:32 UTC

No, I don't think we did. Another unsolved mystery of N_A, I guess...

chinae @ April 18 2004, 16:40:44 UTC

Draco commented he was talking to Sally-Anne when his accident happened. That she was telling him something, I wonder whether she was telling him about what had happened with the Weasleys and that resulted in him not paying attention to what he was doing, which then resulted in the accident.

I've also noticed all the comments he has made to the wheather and to Quidditch. One sense that Draco is trying to desperately get away from all the people visiting at the manner, and how anxious he is to get back at Hogwarts and how fearful he is of Harry's reaction.

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 16:43:09 UTC

I found it very odd that he didn't even make a passing reference to the Weasleys, as it was implied that he and his parents discussed it, :S Although his posts more than most of the other characters are always very me-centred

comava @ April 18 2004, 16:45:49 UTC

One would hope that after his "outing" of Harry, he's learned to keep a bit in check about stuff like that. If he did comment on the Weasley topic, he'd probably be expected to make disparaging remarks (like his parents did) and I don't think he wants to risk Harry's friendship(?) for that.

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 16:49:07 UTC

Yes, thats true. I suppose in his case its safer (in many ways) for him to not say anything. If he replies being mean, as his parents would expect, he risks ruining everything with Harry. But if he said anything remotely sympathetic, he would come off as rude or sarcastic, anger his parents and also everyone who knows about his obvious dislike for the Weasleys and all that the embody. Either way he can't win.

comava @ April 18 2004, 16:55:56 UTC

Exactly. Poor Draco! And poor Weasleys and poor Patils and everyone except Lucius, really.

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 16:50:51 UTC

I agree, I think Draco knows he's got a choice to be making soon, and this just might push him into Harry's arms one camp or another.

oconel @ April 18 2004, 16:52:43 UTC

Yes. I hope he's in Hogwarts when the time comes.

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 17:02:39 UTC

Of course he will be. Not a doubt in my mind. Well. Except that one. And that one over there. Other than that though...

I honestly think that all Draco wants is to live his Malfoy life. I don't think he wants to worry about wars or Dark Lords or the Order. He's got a lot of growing up to do, but I want to think that his relationship with Harry, ambiguous as it is, is helping with that. *hopes*

vassilissa @ April 19 2004, 01:53:40 UTC

I don't think he's holding out much hope about Harry.

I'm not looking forward to returning to Hogwarts tomorrow, which should come as no surprise to anyone with a brain. I suppose it will be nice to see Pansy and Millicent, but other than that, it seems like a rather moot point.

greenvarnish @ April 23 2004, 05:58:29 UTC

That could be due to his father. You know, to keep up some sort of appearance that he doesn't care for Harry, etc.

Still, he's not making much effort to keep their relationship together, is he? When Harry finally says what happened in the train...just...damn.

pokethegeek @ April 18 2004, 16:42:14 UTC

I saw it for the first time last night. Hm. Look! My wibble-icon. Forgot to show it off last night <3

comava @ April 18 2004, 16:43:26 UTC

lol! I have a feeling you'll be using that icon a lot. *sigh*

pokethegeek @ April 18 2004, 16:45:28 UTC

aw yes, I'm afraid so ): I've just gotten my paid account so I've been making new icons .. (:

comava @ April 18 2004, 16:46:51 UTC

Ah, the joy of paid accounts! Not that I would know, though. :-/

pokethegeek @ April 18 2004, 16:48:51 UTC

Oh yes. Must get "i <3 n_a"-icons too. Hm. My last paid account-thing ran out 2 months ago. Oh the lazyness..

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 17:18:23 UTC

Draco's most recent post is more ambiguous than ever! It's so defiantly free of any reference to anything, but still seems to be saying *something.* I couldn't read his spraining his wrist as simple slapstick. He says he's usually aware of the thing (in fact I could swear he had a run-in with this staircase as a child that made an impression on him...and there was a house elf involved?) and that SA distracted him by "nattering on about something stupid." Could she have said something disturbing that made him really think and that's what made him fall? It happened this morning so it would have been after he'd heard about the Weasleys, but SA might have known something about it or been gloating or nasty about it.

Then he goes on to talk about how the Manor's filled with people like this--Avery is there too. I felt like there was some real emotion behind his casual talk about wishing these people weren't at the Manor, and how he doesn't mind SA but he doesn't want to see her every day, and how the Manor is big enough that he didn't have to see people much. It gave me a sense of him being uncomfortable here and not liking these people-and I wondered if he wasn't intentionally telegraphing that just because people are at the Manor doesn't mean he's with them. If I were him I'd think that would be something I would want Harry and Ron to both know. And his comment about not wanting to see SA and her parents everyday sounded very honest--if he doesn't want to see them everyday he may have to get away from the DE circle. In general, all of that did leave me with the impression that he was saying these aren't the people he would choose to spend his future with.

When he started off with, "I don't like to say I told you so..." I held my breath thinking he was going to say something about the Weasleys (and I wondered if that wasn't the player's intention, along with his starting out with, "Well, my Easter holiday's certainly been ruined." :-) It seems like a carefully chosen phrase on ps' part, not referring to something as banal as the weather. In fact, his focus on the weather itself seemed very fake to me, like maybe a really desperate attempt to fill up his journal with smalltalk that doesn't say anything about the Weasleys? And yet even the weather is gloomy. His talk about Quidditch, too, seemed just like an attempt to talk about something. He even manages to mention a match against Gryffindor in a normal way, implying it's something he should be practicing for because they're a good team without sticking in any jabs at the house or its players. I wonder if he felt unsure about even bringing it up, wondering if Harry and Ron would care or even want to play, like this was almost a way of asking.

But then he isn't looking forward to his return to Hogwarts either, and while he always says he can't stand returning to Hogwarts this didn't seem up to his usual disdain. I mean, it's his usual, "Now that I've been back at the Manor it's even harder to go back to that dump," but it's been a while since that seemed believeable and this holiday in particular we know he's been "unhappy at home." His last paragraph sounded bleak to me, and I took his wanting to see Pansy and M.B. as very honest, though he rallies with his remarks about camping at the end. I can't imagine he'd look forward to having to face Ron and Harry. I can't think of how he'd have been able to express sympathy in one of his posts without sounding as smarmy as his parents, though, and I suspect he wouldn't do it there anyway. He didn't rub it in, so I don't think he's gotten any enjoyment out of it like a young DE should. I get the impression Draco likes Ron on some level and Seamus is going to be suffering personally too, and I think he'd be pretty open about that with ps.

In general, the whole post sounded a little melancholy and I kept getting the impression of his trying to put something across but not able to be plain. It wasn't his usual, "I COULD HAVE DIED!" It was like he'd start that but then also undercut it himself. The whole post was sort of "My holiday sucks," but not with ps' usual, "MY HOLIDAY SUCKS AND THE WORLD MUST PAY!" His heart didn't seem really in that. Then he gets on board with Narcissa's intense fashion talk.

jenicomprispas @ April 18 2004, 17:24:32 UTC

I think that was a beautiful analysis of his post. I agree that Draco is sort of stuck right now. He can't gloat (if he even wanted to) without alienating/infuriating just about everyone but his parents, and he can't express sympathy without pissing off his parents. I wasn't even thinking about Draco and Seamus's relationship, thank you for reminding me.

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 17:36:35 UTC

Thanks! Yeah, I can't believe I didn't think of Seamus at first either!

I get the feeling with ps there would not only be the problem of not being able to express sympathy without sounding non-DE, but also he's probably so uncomfortable expressing sympathy anyway. Look at how belligerantly he had to go about asking after Harry a few days ago--and even he must know that that sort of thing won't do with Ron now.

layha @ April 25 2004, 12:13:40 UTC

Thanks! Yeah, I can't believe I didn't think of Seamus at first either!

What is the nature of their relationship, exactly?

(*buckling under the weight of trying to understand an entire, gloriously complex RPG in the span of the past 24 hours*)

sistermagpie @ April 25 2004, 14:48:47 UTC

After Harry confessed to liking ps and began hanging out with him, Seamus and Draco struck up a conversation about fashion. They're both very serious about it. So mostly they talk about fashion and interior decorating, their common interest. They once got together in the library to look at magazines and, do what they called making outfits for people at Hogwarts using models of them made of paper and Dean described as "playing with paper dolls." They also then took tea on the lawn, which was more bluntly described as, "having a tea party." When Ron accused Seamus of playing up to Harry's boyfriend Seamus denied anything going on between them and Draco furious denied being Harry's boyfriend.

Basically, Seamus has been a benevolent force in Harry and Draco's relationship, encouraging Harry to dress well because he's a handsome guy and being a good friend through Harry's outing etc. He doesn't take any crap from ps and has said he isn't that bad except that he puts too much stock in his father's wrongheaded opinions. The one downside, imo, is that he sort of treats Draco like a simple soul that Seamus has completely figured out (Seamus generally is of the opinion that he's figured most people out and sometimes this makes him meddle--people are a little bit like paper dolls). It seems like that's the attitude he has about ps' behavior now, that he's lashing out because he's hurt and so has thrown away all that he could have had with Harry et al.-which is probably pretty accurate.

layha @ April 25 2004, 19:15:04 UTC

Thank you so much. I apologize for foisting my ignorance off on you.

...

You should probably know how impressive I find your thoughts/reflection on all this. I find myself skimming these threads, looking for you and what you've got to say.

Cheers!

sistermagpie @ April 25 2004, 20:51:44 UTC

Thanks!

And believe me--ignorance is something I have a lot of, especially about this game.:-D

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:26:43 UTC

Wow. Great analysis.

I just noticed something about Draco's post. He doesn't say that he fell down a staircase that had disapeared. Instead he says that the staircase "went from invisible to absent." Its almost as if they were waiting for him to come along and then they disappeared.

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 17:40:00 UTC

Oooh. Good point. It does seem like there must be some special reason this happened. Either with the house taking it upon itself to do something to him or with Draco's own emotional state tripping him up or something. And then there's the DE there to fix him up. ::shudder::

Also it seems like a lovely metaphor for something--invisible stairs require a certain trust, but these turn out to be an illusion. Seems like that could somehow relate to Draco's life, that he's not always good at telling the difference between invisible and not there, particularly when it comes to his family. (In a way this seems to relate to his fight with Harry as well, as Draco's affection for him often seems invisible, so Harry wonders if it's not there.)

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 17:47:34 UTC

That metaphor, when applied to Harry's and Draco's relationship, is really cool, because it could imply that if Harry just trusts that Draco's affection is there, but invisible, then one of these days he's going to rely on its existance and it won't be there. Maybe he'll only get a little scuffed, like Draco did, or maybe he'll break his neck, like Draco could have done.

jacay @ April 18 2004, 17:30:31 UTC

I think it's time someone gives us stars. Have I ever told you how insightful your comments are?

My first thought with the fashion talk was, What happened in 1993 that's making them bring it up? But nothing happened. Right? I can't remember how old Draco would have been, then, so.

I totally agree with the idea that Draco's just filling up his journal with smalltalk. And the mention of SA still seems very big to me, but I still don't know what it would mean. It sounds almost like Draco's saying he's sorry by not saying anything at all.

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:33:33 UTC

Its 1998 in N_A and Draco has had his birthday making him 18 now. So that means in 1993 he was 13. I think.

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 17:35:58 UTC

His birthday is in December though so he was 12 the whole time.

jacay @ April 18 2004, 17:39:07 UTC

So would that mean it was second year in Hogwarts?

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 17:43:20 UTC

First year - 1991-1992
Second year - 1992-1993
Third year - 1993-1994
Fourth year - 1994-1995
Fifth year - 1995-1996
Sixth year - 1996-1997
Seventh year - 1997-1998

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 17:47:48 UTC

But if we assume that Harry's birthday being in August and (say in book one) he turns 11, that makes him for that school yar 11 going on 12. assuming Hogwarts follows standard Uk enry requirements, having to have your birthday between 1st september and 31 August of the appropriate year. So Harry would be one of the youngest in his year at Hogwarts. So surely in seventh year Draco is 17 going on 18 but because his birthday is on new years eve, for the whole of this actual year (ie not an academic one) he is 18. Meaning that for the whole of 1993 he was 13.

Or am I completely wrong, thinking about birthdays etc always gets me confused.

jacay @ April 18 2004, 17:53:41 UTC

Yes! So that would be second year. Narcissa was saying she wouldn't want to relive 1993, which was mostly Draco's second year. But that doesn't really mean anything, because nothing really pivotal happened during second year. That means I was totally on the wrong track, then. Eh.

keristars @ April 18 2004, 18:43:22 UTC

The chamber of secrets happened second year. Maybe she's referring to something about that? But the year/age thing is confusing me, too.

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 17:55:38 UTC

No, I mean, I play Draco, haha. I did not want to be overdominating so I commented anonymously. He was born 31 December, 1979 and he was 12 for the whole of 1993, making him seven months older than Harry.

Harry's birthday is 31 July, and he was in fact eleven in 1991 and for the first year of Hogwarts, which is canon. He actually is one of the younger students in his year, by canon.

It's not entirely clear how the years are handled in canon, but in NA, everyone in Harry's year was born in either the last four months of 1979 (1 September through 31 December) or the first eight months of 1980 (1 January through 31 August).

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 18:05:56 UTC

Oh okay, thanks for clearing that up, sorry! And also: Well done! You are a great player :)

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 18:10:01 UTC

Haha! Thank you.

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 17:44:05 UTC

Have I ever told you how insightful your comments are?


Thanks! Though of course they are sometimes insightful...and completely wrong. That's the beauty of NA.:-D

It sounds almost like Draco's saying he's sorry by not saying anything at all.

Yeah, I can't help but get that feeling too and I don't think it's just wishful thinking. He's not expressing proper sympathy for the Weasleys here (though there's plenty more appropriate places to express that anyway) but there is a general feeling of things being bad when they shouldn't be. I agree with jenicomprispas's post above saying that Draco wants to live the Malfoy life and not be involved in any war.

jacay @ April 18 2004, 18:02:34 UTC

There is also this. Which makes me think Draco is saying he's acting rather unlike himself, or else Millicent is saying that. *brain fries*

frozen_jelly @ April 18 2004, 18:32:12 UTC

And is the only reason MB didn't want to stay at Malfoy Manor, Sally-Anne Perks?

jacay @ April 18 2004, 19:05:19 UTC

OMG! This proves, in my mind, that SA is A Bad Influence on Draco. As if we didn't already know from the mud and blood incident. I love MB!!

ungemmed @ April 18 2004, 19:33:42 UTC

Well, you have to wonder where Millicent stands. But given her halfway friendship with Harry you're probably right.

(I trust her judgement of character implicitly, though.)

comava @ April 18 2004, 18:22:42 UTC

Yes, I think some stars would clear up quite a bit of confusion!

a_player @ April 18 2004, 18:23:26 UTC

What if there is nothing to star!

*acquiesces*

comava @ April 18 2004, 18:26:56 UTC

*sigh* Not even the part about Draco not mentioning the Weasley incident or expressing his opinion due to negative replier from either his parents or everyone else?

comava @ April 18 2004, 18:25:07 UTC

Did he just delete the "I don't like to say I told you so..." title?? Either LJ is going wacky or it's not there anymore.

jacay @ April 18 2004, 18:26:36 UTC

I don't even remember seeing that title. They must have deleted it quickly. Or LJ did.

comava @ April 18 2004, 18:28:43 UTC

Maybe he thought that too many people might mistake how he was going to end the sentence? I can't really find any other explanation.

a_player @ April 18 2004, 18:27:29 UTC I perform on command.

Okay let's just assume that what I'm pasting here is being starred because I do not feel like img srcing over and over.

(in fact I could swear he had a run-in with this staircase as a child that made an impression on him...and there was a house elf involved?) He did. He fell down it all the time when he was younger, so he tried to jump over it once and landed wrong and ripped the skin from the back of his leg. A house-elf tried to fix it but did it wrong and he has a scar on the back of his ankle because of it. The staircase is right outside of his bedroom. Sometimes the stairs are invisible, sometimes the stairs just aren't actually there.

It seems like a carefully chosen phrase on ps' part, not referring to something as banal as the weather.

I took his wanting to see Pansy and M.B. as very honest, though he rallies with his remarks about camping at the end. I can't imagine he'd look forward to having to face Ron and Harry.

comava @ April 18 2004, 18:30:44 UTC Re: I perform on command.

Thank you! ^_^

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 18:33:40 UTC Re: I perform on command.

Aha! I knew there was a scar involved there somewhere. How very Malfoy to put the child's room right next to the stairs that disappear. And people wonder why he's got the relationship to the world that he does.:-)

Your second star is tantalizing yet brings up more questions than answers. You are a master. *bows to all the great players*

a_player @ April 18 2004, 19:13:45 UTC Re: I perform on command.

I am not trying to bring up more questions than answers! This is actually why I rarely star! *laughs* I am always looking at sentences thinking, Well, that is right but the reasoning is off so I cannot say that it is right or I will lead people down the wrong path. And so I must say which part I am starring or else people will say, 'But no! You said this was right!' and I will say 'But I did not mean the whole thing!' and I will be stabbed tragically.

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 19:31:05 UTC Re: I perform on command.

LOL--Oh no, I do understand. It must be almost impossible to star for that reason. It's just that naturally that brings up all the things that could be off--like here there's a star that Draco is not referring to the weather with his "I told you so," but now I just wonder what it really does refer too--what he told somebody so about etc.

And then I wonder just how off something else might be, because I know that just because something isn't starred doesn't mean that the *opposite* is true, if you know what I mean. Like not starring, "Draco is sad because he really wanted to practice Quidditch and it is raining" would not necessarily mean Draco wasn't sad, just that he wasn't sad for that reason.

a_player @ April 18 2004, 19:46:35 UTC Re: I perform on command.

Oh, I know. Though, really, when I starred that I assumed everyone would know what he had meant instead. It is hard to put myself in the position of someone who doesn't know what he means, since of course, I do know, and don't know what it looks like otherwise. Quite a bit of the time, I am not trying to be cryptic whatsoever and think the meaning behind things is perfectly clear, but then I am proven disastrously wrong.

I do try to sometimes pointedly not star things in hopes that I am helping by clarifying that something is off, but of course, as you said that isn't even consistent. Sometimes I am just not starring because it would give too much away, sometimes it is because something is completely off, sometimes it is because it is so on/off that it would be difficult to star it either way. I do sometimes just want to comment and clarify because I feel badly when people start getting terribly into a theory that is just, well, not part of what's going on. I feel like a jerk for making people waste their time! But I would feel even worse saying, 'No, you are looking in the wrong direction.'

xnera @ April 18 2004, 20:07:08 UTC Re: I perform on command.

I do sometimes just want to comment and clarify because I feel badly when people start getting terribly into a theory that is just, well, not part of what's going on. I feel like a jerk for making people waste their time!

Oh, no, don't feel like a jerk! Part of the fun of following NA is coming up with theories. Even insane ones that are proven wrong. I, for one, don't feel it's a waste of my time. And I'm kinda glad the fans don't get everything right, because if we did, that would mean we would never be surprised. And good stories, I think, are the kind that shock and surprise you while still remaining true to the integrity of the story and the characters. This is why I love Ender's Game, and A Song of Ice and Fire. It's why I love Nocturne Alley.

By the way, you do know I adore you, right? And whilst I'm spouting love for the players, I also want to say I'm happy to see some of the more minor characters making an appearance again. I just wish it didn't have to be for tragic reasons.

a_player @ April 18 2004, 20:21:47 UTC Re: I perform on command.

I've just realised I'm spamming this poor person's entry.

I, of course, adore you as well.

comava @ April 18 2004, 20:26:30 UTC Re: I perform on command.

My inbox, actually. But it's the fun kind of spam, so do continue!

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 20:38:04 UTC Re: I perform on command.

Not to worry--I think we do get that's how you feel! I know I never take it personally when somebody has to come in and stop the madness or doesn't star in a confusing situation. I never think you're deliberately trying to drive us crazy.:-)

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 19:00:35 UTC

I think Draco's post is enormously significant, and very sad. After rereading it a couple of times, I'm approaching it with the sense that it is in a kind of code, or at least heavily metaphorical, though I don't feel I understand the code except at maybe the most abstract emotional level.

But since Draco uses Harry's favorite icon in the header, I believe the references are there to be understood by Harry. And the post is part apology, part concession of defeat, part explanation of why things are impossible. Bottom line: I think the post alludes to a confrontation between Lucius and Draco, probably over the Weasley murder, as foreshadowed in Draco's cold remarks on Lucius' recent thread. And Draco lost, a process which probably involved a taste of Cruciatus. Draco is now recognizing that his flirtation with the "good" side is over, possibly because of his father's overwhelming force, and possibly because of his own weakness of character.

The main code or metaphor, I think, is the business of the disappearing stairs. It may have literally happened, but the event is made to bear so much symbolic weight that it seems like a deliberate fiction. 1. He "fell" through the staircase -- he was standing on, relying on them at the time. 2. They went from "invisible to absent." -- something he trusted, even if that was an act of faith, turned out not to be there at all. 3. It's not the first time, but he's usually "rather alert" -- so it's a matter involving his own judgment, a mistake that he made.

I guess my inclination is to apply these images to Draco's relationship with his father, to his belief in his father's benevolence, and his sense that he has at least some freedom, if not unlimited freedom, to challenge him. I suspect that as afraid as he has always been of his father, he may have really believed -- or at least cherished the hope -- that if he ever summoned the courage to defy Lucius, Lucius would not actually hurt him. And I think this post is his response to being proven wrong.

The sense that this is wrapped up in paternity or ancient fate is continued in his other statements about the staircase -- 4. an almost apologetic suggestion that "in the old days" people though these things made them safer, which sounds like he's talking about an old-family pureblood ideology, and 5. a resigned sense that "these things are part of the foundation" and can't be changed -- perhaps a recongition that he himself is too compromised to ever step away from this?

Whatever happened obviously was very painful, although Avery was there to help him recover from the worst of it once the point was made. And the point does, indeed, seem to have been taken. The middle paragraphs I read as a resigned description of his life, or his fate, from this point forward -- it's not the end of the world, he doesn't have to actively like or engage with these people, he just, implicitly, can't actively resist them. "I don't like to say I told you so" -- this is really poignant, if it's addressed to Harry and if the rest of this interpretation is correct. He can't change, he can't make a break, after all. I will pass over in silence what "practicing flying" might mean in PS and JH's private code, but he's been doing a little of it with Sallly-Anne and it's not so awful. Why resist further, when if you go out in the rain you just get soaked?

The final paragraph sounds the most defeated and sad. Hogwarts is pointless to him now. He has M.B. and Pansy, but things are obviously over with Harry and Ron and Seamus, for reasons apparent to "anyone who has a brain." Not sure if the comment about camping means anything.

I also think Narcissa's post (and to a lesser extent, M.B.'s), are in code as well, and possibly an attempt at consolation. Need to think a bit more about this, but may take a stab at interpreting them as well.

jacay @ April 18 2004, 19:08:41 UTC

I hope you are wrong.

But "part of the foundation"--wow. For a wild instant, I was thinking he wanted to change the DEs, but he couldn't because it was part of the foundation of the DEs and he can't change anything. But even though I'm sure I'm wrong, you're right, there are so many metaphorical things in there, or things that could be metaphorical, that it's amazing. I have to agree with you. But I still hope you're wrong and that Draco is not giving up.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 19:40:03 UTC He changed his icon!

I swear PS used to have Harry's favorite icon on his post. He's changed it! Now he's "ever so enthralling." No clue what this mean. :)

jacay @ April 18 2004, 19:45:49 UTC Re: He changed his icon!

Haha, maybe they're related. Or maybe Draco's paranoid about what people will think about his subliminal messages, so he just keeps tweaking things.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 19:49:48 UTC Re: He changed his icon!

Or maybe he's NOT speaking to Harry, and it's an anti-star!

ungemmed @ April 18 2004, 19:40:39 UTC

My question is mostly about Sally-Anne's role in... whatever happened. Did she betray him in any way? Obviously Millicent doesn't trust her at all, although I have no idea whose side Millicent is on. My gut says she's closer to "light" than "dark" but.

I think the only thing I can conclusively say about Millicent is that she wants the best for Draco and thinks that Sally-Anne is bad news. Very bad news--the "that thing" comment is possibly the most explicit she's ever been in telling Draco to do anything.

Also, where is Pansy? And what is Pansy doing?

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 20:03:19 UTC

Wow--so let me understand what you're saying you think happened here. I do think that the staircase is unavoidably a powerful metaphor for Draco's safety in his own house--and it's true that it also provides an almost cliche child abuse story, "I just fell down the stairs that disappear!" Draco does say he is quite strong, which you seem to be interpreting as his saying he's strong enough to endure being under Lucius' thumb, but presumably this could also refer to his being strong enough not to be completely defeated by all this.

Running with your metaphor, admitting that these things are part of the foundation of his house doesn't mean he can't learn to deal with them in a better way. He himself describes these defenses as being something that was thought of as a good idea "ages ago," meaning that they are outdated relics of the past-a good thing for ps to realize! They can't be changed, but that doesn't mean he has to change to suit them.

The staircase is an on-going metaphor in his house. As a kid he always fell down them, then he attempted to jump over them and got hurt (so maybe learned he had to learn to work with them). That's when he became more alert. Today they disappeared out from under him, plus he was distracted (by the ever bad-influence SAP) and got thrown for a loop, but does this have to represent defeat? It could be a wake-up call, or if they were symbolic of the situation in general he could be admitting failure at being effective concerning current goings-on without an announcement that he would no longer try to resist. If the stairs have offered greater challenges as he's gotten older, why would this one be the one that defeats him? It just seems like if home being dangerous was the theme of this weekend, why wouldn't he run like he usually does from danger?

So you think his, "I told you so," refers to his telling Harry he can never change? Or perhaps it refers to his idea that everything would eventually go to hell ("Look at the weather. Absolutely pitiful.") Because it could be just that Draco has predicted a bad ending for Weasleys before. His points about Hogwarts do sound very bleak, but perhaps he hasn't taken Harry and Ron and Seamus' true feelings into account here. We know he's not looking forward to seeing them, perhaps considers the whole thing a moot point now so is getting ready to go back to M.B. and Pansy being his only friends, but Draco's assuming his friendships with the Gryffs are over wouldn't mean they are. Perhaps he'll be surprised at the reception he gets.

M.B. certainly doesn't seem ready to let go without a fight--she's still stating that she will not be around Draco while he is around "that thing" (Sally-Anne). It seems like she's still telling him to make a break, implying that Draco's hanging around her for some bad reason that he can change--M.B. has always been the Slyth who encouraged the other two to get over their parents. There doesn't seem to be much belief in fate for MB.

I don't know if I've ever gotten the sense Draco had too much idea in his freedom to challenge his father. I don't know if Lucius has ever hurt him physically, but he did pretend he didn't exist last year. It just seems odd a character always fighting would roll over from a crucio when in the past hasn't he followed Lucius because he loved him and thought he was a great man.

So I'm getting the same melancholy feeling that you are in the post but maybe everything just doesn't seem so final to me. He brushes off his parents concern over his injury (which, if Lucius in any way inflicted it, would be sarcastic, wouldn't it?). He doesn't join in with their public condolences to the Weasleys. (And he changed his icon.)

I took his discussion about fashion at face value myself, since that's so important to him.:-) The Perks were being evicted because peaches turn his stomach, but he just told them to change. Now, I'm curious as to where you're getting the idea that there was not only an open confrontation between L&D where Draco challenged DE policy but that resulted in Draco being crucio'd?

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 21:47:01 UTC

Now, I'm curious as to where you're getting the idea that there was not only an open confrontation between L&D

The confrontation theory has a couple of parts -- I guess I feel that it is set up by yesterday's Lucius thread. Although Lucius summons Draco for questions, Draco also makes a point of "summoning" Lucius for tea and making it clear that they have things to talk about, involving the Weasley murder. I think this represents a definite challenge to Lucius, and I think he reacts as if he's been challenged. Next thing we hear, Draco has been badly hurt and the story -- that it was a stairwell accident -- seems highly symbolic and not at all literal.

Draco also seems to be in a state of despair, which would not normally be the result even of a painful and exasperating accident. Plus, his mother is comforting him, in code. Without the "accident" and the pain, I might believe that he was just bitterly disillusioned with Lucius over the Weasley murder, deeply shocked. But the painful accident, and Narcissa's odd way of talking about it ("It pains me to know that my dear, brilliant son has had to experience such agony" -- wouldn't you ordinarily express regret for the "accident," rather than the "experience of agony"?) suggests a deliberate infliction.

Finally, I find it interesting that after an "accident" that requires Avery's intervention and a half-day's bedrest, Draco is emotionally shattered but feels no physical obstacle to going out and practicing quidditch. There's no lingering physical debility, just pain and a psychological shock -- does that seem consistent with falling down stairs?

As usual, it's a matter of making a decision about cues from context, and I could be totally off. But this doesn't feel anything like what it purports to be on the surface, and the parts, to me, add up in the way I'm speculating.

admitting that these things are part of the foundation of his house doesn't mean he can't learn to deal with them in a better way . . . they are outdated relics of the past-a good thing for ps to realize! . . . does this have to represent defeat? It could be a wake-up call

It might possibly be that in theory, but I guess I don't see any indication that Draco sees it that way, and I do see signs that he regards it with some finality, as a defeat. The clearest sign is his flat despair about returning to Hogwarts and his assumption that Harry and company are done with him. A secondary sign is the stuff about reaching accommodation with having the DE's around, not having to like it. You make a good point that Harry and Seamus and Ron my surprise him, and I am not ruling that out by any means. But if there's hope, it's external to Draco at this point -- he himself seems to have given up.

I took his discussion about fashion at face value myself

LOL, I did an Ernie-check in the mirror before posting that stuff, but really it seems too obsessive, too precisely coded, to be just casual fashion conversation. The dates, the people cited, the fact that they don't talk about any fashion choices other than peach, all seem to emphasize "peach" as a marker for something else.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 21:58:35 UTC Correction about PS' Injury

Oops, I read the stuff about his quidditch practice backwards -- it suggests he really does have some residual injury. So that point falls. Unless, of course, it is a detail offered as part of a cover story! ;)

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 22:36:17 UTC

But the painful accident, and Narcissa's odd way of talking about it ("It pains me to know that my dear, brilliant son has had to experience such agony" -- wouldn't you ordinarily express regret for the "accident," rather than the "experience of agony"?) suggests a deliberate infliction.

But is that an odd way of speaking for Narcissa? I would expect a Malfoy to express regret for the experience of agony and not the accident in these circumstances. If Draco's story of the stairs is legitimate it was no accident--the stairs disappeared (and SA seems to have been a witness). Narcissa can't be angry at that happening the way she might be angry about it happening at Hogwarts because they're her stairs. So she takes a passive approach. I feel like if Lucius inflicted the injury ps would be less likely to be playing along with other people about his lie-in-particularly his mother who would presumably not have protected him.

But of course I agree that the fall down the stairs is not what's upset him but recent events--none of this post is what it seems, imo. I'm just not sure it has to be so direct as Draco openly challenging Lucius (do you mean he would be challenging the DE decision to torture the Weasleys? Or announce that he had no intention of taking the mark? Because that doesn't seem like something he would do, especially not in reaction to an attack on the Weasleys) and Lucius Crucio-ing him into submission and Draco resigning himself to a life of quiet desperation. First because I think Draco is usually played as a kid, someone who reacts to things in the moment. To make a decision about his whole life seems kind of beyond him to me. I don't feel like he's mature enough to recognize his character is too weak to resist the fate his father has set out for him, and up until now he's been defined as someone who finds it difficult to suck it up.

Lucius could have put the fear of God into him. Draco could be just be shaken at this proof of what happens to people who openly defy Voldemort. He told the Weasleys what Pureblood-traitors had to look forward to and he was right. Lucius is threatening in all these posts--suggesting Draco needs to go to St. Mungo's, and staking his claim as head of the family with both him and Narcissa (I wonder if it's wise for Draco to have an elf with him at school). He and Sinistra both bring up the idea of this happening to Draco. Draco is, I think, seeing this as a situation where he needs to look after himself and not his friends. He's scared, but I can believe he thinks all he's doing here is sort of "sitting up straight" in case the DE gaze falls on him. Most of his icons choices with his parents have reflected that--good son, good student, perfect. (Except-significantly?-his "suffer unfairly" in response to Narcissa "understanding" putting yourself ahead of your friends.)

I agree with what you're saying below, that this would represent a big failure for ps, and that he's not being as smart as perhaps he thinks he is. But I think it's a believeable short-term reaction for him. He'll play nice-nice with his parents, eat dinner in Paris, remind Lucius what a model son he is, be polite to the DEs while they're visiting. (And his parents are elaborate playing up to him as well, so perhaps they're not sure they've got him). Later, at Hogwarts, he will have to face up to Harry and Ron. I don't know that he'd be as disgusted at himself as you feel he is. You've said that Draco sees himself as in too deep to get out, but he's not a DE; he didn't hurt George and Charlie. He must know that the Gryffindors would expect him to stand with them in open condemnation of Voldemort and dreads that, but this is something he can change in the future. He doesn't react to this kind of horror with anger at Voldemort but fear for himself. Imo, he's still trying to play up to both ends--suck up to Lucius and then hope it's not too bad dealing with the Gryffs. He doesn't seem as despairing now as he was. I think if it comes down to open confrontation we'll see something more obvious.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 23:05:40 UTC

do you mean he would be challenging the DE decision to torture the Weasleys? Or announce that he had no intention of taking the mark?

It need not be that overt or definitive -- as you say he is not necessarily mature enough to frame things in terms of major life choices just yet. I was thinking more that he would simply stand up to his father in conversation over tea, defend his friends, express horror at what happened to the Weasleys and even perhaps express some veiled disapproval of Lucius' reaction. And then resist his father's increasingly menacing remarks until his father demonstrated his power more overtly. I was only half-kidding about quoting Lucius' remark about "hurting him more" in the comment below -- I notice that Draco also brushes off the trip to St. Mungo's by saying "it didn't make me insane" -- an allusion to Charlie losing his mind under Crucio?

I'm not getting any stars for this so objectively I'm probably off base, but again, we see the buildup to a conflict in the Lucius thread, and we see what looks like an aftermath in Draco's thread today, so I'm just trying to infer what happened in between. It feels big and it feels like something PS experienced as a major and important failure. And it feels separate in time from his initial reaction to the Weasley murder, which seems, based on the Lucius thread, to have been defiant.

Draco's remark about danger making him choose himself instead of his friends is also a major deal, I think. It's almost trivial to say that it's the complete opposite of what Harry would do, but PS has to know that. It's an admission that feels like it has some self-loathing to it, and again it's temperamentally different from his initial reaction of defiance. Something has happened to make him feel that he is, fundamentally, a coward. Interesting that M.B. and PS are arguing about who's being a child and therefore implicitly who's being a grownup. Is PS trying to tell himself that an accomodation to the DE's is just a matter of healthy adult pragmatism?

Much more to think about here -- which is maybe the fun of putting a really extravagant interpretation out there and seeing what kind of reaction it draws. But I must run away now and go eat sushi, which will be some modest consolation for my unhappiness with poor PS. :)

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 01:08:42 UTC

And it feels separate in time from his initial reaction to the Weasley murder, which seems, based on the Lucius thread, to have been defiant.

I don't know how defiant it was--I was having trouble trying to figure that out at the time. There have been times in the past when Draco has been pushy about getting information about DE things, like when he posts articles about them or asks Lucius questions under Veritaseum, but it wasn't exactly defiant.

It seems to me that Lucius is making himself look like King of the World in Draco's eyes. The kinds of feelings you're ascribing to pshere are a little Gryffindor--to Draco, this incident probably hasn't turned the world upsidedown because it's just the way things have always been described as working to him by Lucius. Didn't Lucius say the Potters were killed because they stuck their noses somewhere they didn't belong or something? He could have explained this murder the same way.

ps and MB, meanwhile, seem to be commenting on the whole thing as complete outsiders. As cold as their remarks about the Weasleys are, I admit I always had a similar theory about people with lots of kids because so many in my town seemed to lose children in bizarre accidents. Their humor, as ever, is completely black--yes, I do think Draco's reference to being insane refers to Charlie. He's a coward and gallow's humor seems to be part of that. It seems to me Draco sees this as proof that Ron and Harry should have listened to him and he perhaps considers himself in the right because he did speak up about it befoer. I don't think he's yet gotten to the point where he thinks he's wrong for not being more Gryffindor. He and MB (and Pansy) seem to have always prided themselves on not looking at things from the righteous pov.

I'm not getting any stars for this so objectively I'm probably off base,

Now now. You know there's many reasons one might not get stars.:-) But in response I'll throw out my own odd rambling thoughts: What is Lucius up to? We know things are not as they seem with him, that he probably doesn't underestimate the Weasleys, that he's up to something...but what? So far his public reaction to this incident has been to first off pull his son into it: he makes it seem like he's involved by saying he wants to speak with him and has questions. He draws parallels between his child and the Weasleys, emphasizing what a vulnerable spot Draco is for him. Only later does he post that the lesson to be learned here is that if people insist on behaving in a way that brings this down upon them, this kind of thing will continue. Lucius surely knew who it was who had the prophetic dream last year, and presumably he doesn't share the Prophet's sloppiness in distinguishing twins, so we probably shouldn't take the paper's theory about why the twins were targetted as true. The twins may have been working for the Order or something.

So I just don't see Draco as having a reason to be that devestated. ps, remember, begins right after GoF Draco, he of the "Remember what I told you, Potter, that day on the train?" and "Well, not the first. Diggory was the first." This sounds like the same kid. He's changed, perhaps, in that his feels about the effects of these truths on the Gryffs is different, but he hasn't necessarily ever doubted its truth.

black_dog @ April 19 2004, 10:59:36 UTC

Fascinating that we react so differently to all this -- that's the fun of watching the game I guess, and only further events will tell for sure what's going on.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I take your general meaning to be that what happened this weekend is qualitatively no different from things that happened before -- only a little more so, maybe, and a little closer to home, so that Draco is feeling a bit frightened and looking out for himself but is not radically challenged by any of this.

I guess I feel differently for a number of reasons. I'll take maybe an easy shot -- you suggest that PS is not much different from the Draco who said "you're next" at the end of GoF, but really, that was three years ago in PS' life, and he's been through huge changes since then, so to take the continuity for granted seems unreasonable.

I am thinking about your critique that perhaps I've given PS too much credit for changing, or am too inclined to think that PS has moved closer to the "good guys" at least in his own mind and his own judgment -- so that his issue is cowardice rather than a genuine residual sympathy for the DEs. I guess I accept that criticism as something to watch out for in my own reading of PS.

But it seems self-evident to me that PS has come a tremendous distance from the start of the game, when he was a howling narcissist with no friends (either Gryffindor or, I think Slytherin) who pathetically idolized both of his parents and couldn't take his mask off with anyone. That PS was barely capable of seeing the real world clearly much less making independent judgments about it, had no experience with well-adjusted people, no perspective on his parents, and no healthy emotional attachments to anyone. He was well on his way to becoming a hopeless sociopath. And the story of how he avoided this, and experienced some real growth in a healthy direction, even if that growth is partially balked and blocked, seems to be the primary interest of his character and one of the main subjects of the game. So I'm absolutely not willing to use that low standard in judging PS at this time. The distance that he's come in the past year and a half defines, I think, the tremendous amount of ground that he's lost this weekend, maybe lost irrevocably.

For example, I can't share your optimism about Harry & co. I can't imagine Harry reacting with anything but utter contempt to PS' choices and public remarks over this weekend. I think the two of them are done for now, and the shape of the game may be setting up for an extended period where H and D have decisively aligned with different sides, even though D may be unhappy about his choices. Any reconciliation would then be complicated and postponed, for a period well beyond the end of Hogwarts. But on that, only the players can say, and I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out.

[continued . . . ]

black_dog @ April 19 2004, 11:09:33 UTC

[. . . continued]

ps and MB, meanwhile, seem to be commenting on the whole thing as complete outsiders.

I'm intrigued by where M.B. may be coming from here. I think she's had a gut-level hostile moral reaction to the murders. She's left the Manor and returned to Hogwarts -- she doesn't want to be around those people. I took her post about having spare children so you wouldn't notice if you lost any as being a bitter mockery of Lucius. And I was trying to make sense of her extended thread with PS -- trying to figure out if she had any agenda, or was just babbling with him for reassurance. At a couple of points, I had the feeling that she was not so much indulging in gallows humor as deliberately poking and probing at PS for some sign of his outrage or horror over events. The closest she comes is when Draco refuses to run with his "I told you so" remark -- it's just too callous even for him to say. Several times she tells him to stop typing, to shut up, to come visit her. I think even M.B. is judging Draco here, and may be a little disappointed in him.

I'm also intrigued by how extensively M.B. and Narcissa were talking to each other. I wonder sometimes if the two of them don't quite understand each other, and if their hostility isn't actually a bit misplaced. But Narcissa, as usual, is a whole other post (and not one for this morning! ;) )

What is Lucius up to? I don't take it for granted that he was directly involved in the murder -- I think we saw when Harry challenged him over his parents' murder that he likes to take more credit, imply more menacing involvement, then he may strictly deserve. And the murder has the characteristic sloppiness and idiocy of the DE's -- why leave Fred alive to testify? Presumably they thought he had gone insane like Charlie and thought it more sadistic to leave him that way than to kill him, but that choice will probably be the undoing of whoever actually carried out the attack.

But it's in Lucius' interest to seem powerful and dangerous. Not least with respect to Draco. I agree with your other comment that both Lucius and Narcissa seem to be trying very hard with Draco, as though they may doubt how solidly they have him on their side. One interesting possibility is that Lucius may not so much be menacing Draco for the sake of manifesting his own power, but may feel he is protecting Draco from a fate like the Weasleys by crushing any attempt at a public defection.

But they may end up with the worst of both worlds, here. I think, again, that L and N have enough of PS to have sabotaged any chance he may have had for happiness and freedom, but not enough of him that he is securely among their allies. Which is tragic for Draco, and maybe even dangerous -- it may mean he hasn't even succeeded in making himself safe from his own side after all.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 15:41:47 UTC

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I take your general meaning to be that what happened this weekend is qualitatively no different from things that happened before

Actually, I don't think I'm quite sure what I mean.:-) I agree that ps has come a long way since then, so I don't want to imply that his new relationships haven't effected the way he thinks about things. The way he's acting now is not, imo, the way he would have acted then. Plus I have just felt like this year Draco has been doing a lot of serious thinking about DE's. I'm more just saying we can't assume that as one thing is challenged about him the rest follows suit. For instance, this summer when he first lunched with the DEs some people assumed he was horrified because he had now switched sides and that was mistaken.

I feel like this is a part of his character we don't have as much insight into as some of the other parts. It's tempting to see the world as Harry vs. Lucius and assume that a good person eventually ends up like Harry and the bad like Lucius in a way, but ps (and MB) represent something quite different. We know ps isn't looking forward to facing Harry and Ron, so he is thinking of this in personal terms, but the reasons for this may not be so straightforward as his seeing things like them but lacking courage, because that kind of makes the Gryffs the model that everyone should aspire to, and I think in this game the Slyths are presented as a force in themselves.

I can't imagine Harry reacting with anything but utter contempt to PS' choices and public remarks over this weekend.

I've no idea how Harry will react, but he knows who he was dealing with here. It seems odd that a Harry who sought out a friendship with the openly DE-supporting ps would suddenly hold him in simple contempt for his reaction here, because that's what Harry started out openly doing years ago. I don't want to dismiss the seriousness of the situation as if Harry would just brush off ps being callous about the Weasleys, but I don't know if he'd see the situation so simply as to judge, blast and move on, even if it did lead to the two of them breaking up. Particularly if jh really cares for ps at this point it seems odd for it to be over because ps didn't show the right grief for a family he hates. Surely if ps had been attacked there would be some "I told you so's," as well? Two years ago ps would have been ecstatic about this.

I think even M.B. is judging Draco here, and may be a little disappointed in him.

But it she's judging him for not out of moral hostility to the murders, why is she the one making jokes about the Weasleys? Her original post does sound like a stab at the Slyth parents (but it's still thoughtless with regards to the Weasleys who would read it), she makes the joke about ps having 7 hands and losing two because he didn't listen to her, says "ain't death grand," says the Weasleys might have more pocket money with 2 less kids and suggests Draco be their stepfather since their father appears to be broken, which struck me as the cruelest comment made about the incident by anyone. Oh, and she also made an lj account called wehavefive for the occasion. Draco has avoided talking about it openly so far (moreso than his parents with their advice about bad behavior and references to ginger and duck a l'orange), he's resisting picking up a nasty joke for a long time, which seems kind of significant for ps.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 16:09:35 UTC

But it she's judging him for not out of moral hostility to the murders,


Whoops. Should, of course, read, "But if she's judging him for not having moral hostility to the murders..."

black_dog @ April 19 2004, 16:56:23 UTC

I've no idea how Harry will react, but he knows who he was dealing with here. It seems odd that a Harry who sought out a friendship with the openly DE-supporting ps would suddenly hold him in simple contempt for his reaction here, because that's what Harry started out openly doing years ago.

I think it's different though -- I think Harry's early infatuation was based on a surprised recognition that there was more to Draco than the DE stuff and the impossible arrogance, which made him legitimately wonder how deep all that stuff went. Although Harry resolutely denies having any redemptive intentions toward PS, I think he was genuinely willing to suspend judgment until he had a clearer picture of what PS was all about, and I think he had some reason to think that the nasty stuff could be explained away, at least in part, or even grown out of. If he ends up feeling he's been mistaken about that, then I can see him closing doors again.

if jh really cares for ps at this point it seems odd for it to be over because ps didn't show the right grief for a family he hates

But is that all PS is doing?

I agree that PS isn't gloating or picking up excessively on his father's nasty jokes. But he's not doing much of anything -- he seems to be refusing to acknowledge that much of anything happened, attempting to stay removed from it all. And this, I think, is where MB's criticism comes in.

it she's judging him for not out of moral hostility to the murders, why is she the one making jokes about the Weasleys?

If I didn't see M.B. as such a tightly controlled person, I would think that she was very upset, unnerved and a little giddy, about what happened. On the other hand, for all her cynicism, it doesn't strike me as in character for her to be so gratuitously cruel -- indifferent and callous in the service of another objective, yes, but not viciously cruel for its own sake. But she's clearly dwelling obsessively on the murders and making one grotesque remark after another. My hypothesis is that she's upset and angry, but wouldn't be acting this way if she didn't have a specific purpose, if she weren't also deliberately trying to rattle Draco, trying to see what reaction she gets by throwing all this in his face. She's sort of capering and taunting him in a ghoulish way, and I think she's doing it to see if she can break down his pretense of being unruffled.

PS starts out by refusing to engage her or make the obvious connection -- deflecting the "seven" issue and the "ain't death grand" issue -- and when he does that she keeps telling him to shut up or talk about something else. Then his answers start to seem more engaged -- when she suggests the Weasleys have fewer mouths to feed now, he's "appalled," -- and I wonder if this is a moment of seriousness before he deflects it back into a joke. Then he avoids a chance to mock Arthur for being "broken" though he ends up mocking Molly instead for being fat and not taking care of her children. Then M.B. starts running with his apparent suggestion that it's the Weasley's own fault they didn't look out better for their children -- she does this in so deadpan a way that Lucius jumps in to compliment her. PS rallies weakly with is "I hate to say I told you so," then backs off -- he's not comfortable saying it. He's inconsistent, which to me reads as he's rattled. I think this is what she was trying to extract from him, and she got a few grudging admissions of discomfort, but maybe isn't completely satisfied with his reaction.

M.B.'s reply to Ginny -- "At least you are consistent in your handicap" doesn't seem to make sense except as an allusion to someone else's in-consistency, so I assume that's about Draco too. Draco intermittently pretends not to understand, while Ginny genuinely doesn't. It adds to the evidence that she's measuring and evaluating Draco's reaction, and finding it a bit fishy.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 19:37:31 UTC

If he ends up feeling he's been mistaken about that, then I can see him closing doors again.

Absolutely. Sometimes you have to look out for yourself instead of your friends in this case for Harry too. But still, I don't know how far Harry would ever believe there was a way to explain away his openly DE sentiments.

He's inconsistent, which to me reads as he's rattled.

But if he's rattled, as he's seemed from the beginning, isn't that a step he must pass through? I just hesitate to see ps' reaction as the lowest standard, assuming everyone else is trying to coax a more righteous reaction out of him, especially when they're taunting the Weasleys to do it. So far the characters who are "on the other side" have all made a point of posting an entry more openly insulting to the Weasleys than ps, MB included.

If on the surface ps is quieter and MB is sardonic, how can we safely conclude that MB is the one more upset? She's focusing on the Weasleys having fewer children, picking up a joke of LUcius' that Draco didn't respond to the first time. Why run with it? Couldn't she just find it amusing? It's hard for me to imagine her upset at Draco for not emoting over Arthur's posts. If she were trying to get Draco to admit he thought his parents' joke was awful, was that worth ceaselessly mocking the Weasleys if her whole point was that this was a terrible thing to say? We've seen MB be supportive in her way, and it doesn't sound like she's trying to buck up the Weasleys. It sounds to me like she's taking shots at them.

What I find so interesting about ps as a character is the way he's developed gradually without missing a single step. There's no cheating with him, imo, so I feel like the only way he could move to true moral understanding is through a dawning moral confusion, which seems to be where he is now (unless I'm wrong). He knows the Weasleys got what was coming to them according to the code he's always lived by, but if he's reluctant to say "I told you so" directly, it indicates to me it's maybe a hollow victory. His parents appear to have been trying to encourage the idea that Draco has the good parents and Weasleys asked for this. And Draco seemed to warm to that. MB encourages the "ITYS" too, but is she shoving the nastiness of it in his face? She could just be waiting for the inevitable bragging and wondering where it is.

Draco's not wanting to talk about what happened doesn't necessarily mean he's not dealing with it anymore than, as you're suggesting here, MB's jokes mean that she's not dealing with it either. What would MB be trying to get him to say? I mean, I think she is trying to get a reaction out of him, obviously, but what reaction? He doesn't seem that inconsistent to me.

Also, he hasn't yet had to face Ron and Harry yet. Right now it's just stories on the ljs. Now he's been sent back to school alone to face things for real. And we know that ps can be different in those kinds of interactions.

M.B.'s reply to Ginny -- "At least you are consistent in your handicap" doesn't seem to make sense except as an allusion to someone else's in-consistency, so I assume that's about Draco too.

It makes sense as an allusion to past handicap. I thought MB was saying, "Well, at least you're consistently stupid." Ginny just can't understand how MB could say what she is saying, because Ginny has never understood. Ginny (and the Weasleys) possibly still don't get it or get her.

black_dog @ April 20 2004, 09:08:13 UTC

Sometimes you have to look out for yourself instead of your friends in this case for Harry too.

Are you serious about this comparison? I honestly find it startling. PS was using the phrase to justify an attitude of indifference and callousness to the murder of people who were close to his friends. In what comparable sense would Harry be using it? If Draco is behaving contemptibly, what claim does he have here as Harry's friend; how is Harry being "selfish," in what way is he "sacrificing" a friendship that Draco has already spoiled?

I don't know how far Harry would ever believe there was a way to explain away his openly DE sentiments.

Hmmm. Although I hate to disagree so forcefully, I think there is a tendency here to go wide of the real issue with respect to Draco and DE sentiments. First, I think that it is too easy to assume that DE ideology is an unproblematic part of Pureblood culture. I don't think either of us is willing to accept the equation Slytherin = DE, or even reflexive pureblood racist = DE. It's one thing to think that mingling with Muggles is beneath you; it's another to support the program of a psychopath like Voldemort. And even for those families who secretly harbor DE sympathies, it's something they're at pains to deny in public; they themselves know it is socially unacceptable. PS would have learned at least that much from his parents. So PS' public profession of DE sympathies in the past was never a simple mirror of his "culture." It was always neurotic, aggressive, and attention-seeking. As Seamus said in tonight's thread, "you hurt others because you hurt." And this was the insight that Harry came to, as well, that led him to see the possibility of a relationship with Draco.

Moreover I don't think the issue now is that Draco has adopted DE ideology. I don't think he has. I completely agree that he's less culpable than his father in this respect, and I'm slowly coming around to your view on MB. The point is that after all he has been through, and all the reasons he hs to know better, he was incapable of giving a morally adequate response to the murder of his friends' friends. This has nothing to do with his ideology -- he does not attempt to justify it on the basis of any ideology he holds -- quite the opposite, if his discomfort is a true indicator of his feelings. It is a matter of pure cowardice and moral vacuity, and that is what Harry and Seamus condemn him for.

What I find so interesting about ps as a character is the way he's developed gradually without missing a single step.

But again, I don't think his development is modeled by the changing of his ideological allegiances. I don't think it's an intellectual matter at all, because none of his behavior is driven by intellecual commitments or reasons per se. It's pure emotion, resentment, insecurity, inability to relate to people as people, an unreasonable need to be emotionally armored. His "confusion" is not a matter of wrestling with intellectual doubts about DE-ism; it's a matter of his feeling/being fit for ordinary human company. Ideology is just the superstructure, so to speak. And I don't think he's "moving" or "passing through" a step of intellectual revelation -- he's had access, for a year now, to some significant emotional and social connections and he just can't find his footing in them.

At a certain point, it's reasonable to say he just hasn't got it. There's something wrong about him, rotten about him. Not necessarily permanently, but he's been impervious to efforts and influences that went well beyond ordinary indulgence. Seamus, again, has the best summary: the friendship is over because after repeated opportunities he "simply can't get his head out of his own ass." Until he is capable of showing remorse, showing regret, they just can't deal with him any more.

Anyway, that's my own take on it, and since it is so fundamentally different from yours it seemed worthwhile to clarify the differences. I'm not without sympathy for PS, because I know he's hurting, that he's too weak to act on that knowledge. But at a certain point sympathy can no longer suspend judgment. The next move is really PS', and it had better be a radical one.

sistermagpie @ April 20 2004, 18:06:31 UTC

In what comparable sense would Harry be using it?

I was just saying it would be ridiculous for Harry to be friends with a DE, not that Harry was being selfish.

This has nothing to do with his ideology -- he does not attempt to justify it on the basis of any ideology he holds -- quite the opposite, if his discomfort is a true indicator of his feelings. It is a matter of pure cowardice and moral vacuity, and that is what Harry and Seamus condemn him for.

I think he's more than attempting to justify it through ideology, he's justifying it flat-out. I mean, why should we assume that his publically expressed DE sentiments were simply a way of seeking attention and not an expression of what he believed? (They can be both.) I don't think he attacked Hermione out of moral vacuity.

His discomfort doesn't have to mean his true feelings are like ours. He can feel conflict over the fact that they are Weasleys (and so bad) but also Purebloods (which makes it a waste). I'm sure he does feel badly about what happened on the train, as Seamus says, but I doubt he feels regret over Hermione.

It just seems like more often than not the characters present themselves as who they are, even when they're dishonest. Draco's behavior has always been different from his parents but, but I think it mirrors them--none to flatteringly, unfortunately for them. I think he listens to them a little too well. I guess I should put it this way: On what evidence are you basing the idea that Draco doesn't really believe that Muggles and Mudbloods are literally bad?

I don't think it's an intellectual matter at all, because none of his behavior is driven by intellecual commitments or reasons per se.

Imo, the DE ideology is not an intellectual commitment. It's wholly emotional, just like everything else. Right now he seems, to me, to be in a stage where his commitment to those beliefs has come into conflict with other things he wants but he still feels he's right. I think the DE ideology about Purebloods needing to be protected from Mudbloods and Muggles informs all of his life. He doesn't cover up his beliefs in public like his parents do. He flat-out says Hermione deserved to die instead of George and fights with Harry over this exact issue. I know there's times when he says the opposite of what he feels, like when he says he hates Harry, but his actions usually make that clear.

the friendship is over because after repeated opportunities he "simply can't get his head out of his own ass." Until he is capable of showing remorse, showing regret, they just can't deal with him any more.

And yet Seamus keeps talking to him and ends the conversation by reminding him that when he realizes he's wrong, they'll listen. I guess I just can't ever get behind the idea there's just something wrong and rotten about him, because he just seems like a regular person to me who has beliefs like many people in the real world. If this is the explanation for his behavior than pretty much an entire generation of German youth were also born fundamentally rotten inside. Not to mention, how would the player play that?

It seems to me that what his player is playing here is an actual racist, the type of person who would sympathize with any number of terrorist groups, not somebody who just uses racism for attention or is knuckling under to his father.

black_dog @ April 20 2004, 23:00:50 UTC

I think this is an absolutely fascinating discussion, and I think both of us are drawing on fairly deep-rooted moral intuitions and trying to examine them critically. So here's another round of turning over some thoughts -- and we'll see where we get to.

I feel that you are trying to attribute some core integrity and principle to Draco that, however perverse it may be substantively, is at least recognizable as an abstract virtue that can be built on as he grows and changes and gets wiser. But I am very skeptical about using the language of choice, or consistency, or principle, or ideology to describe behavior that is as sociopathic as the DE's and their sympathizers.

I admit I tend to psychologize, even pathologize extremist ideologies rather than accepting them on their own terms, but I wonder what is gained by indulging them in their preferred language. Is Draco consistent in his beliefs? Maybe so, but I think there is a difference between a consistency that is based on personal integrity, on experience and judgment and self-knowledge and reasonable intuition about other people, and consistency that is merely neurotic rigidity, that is a simple reflex of unexamined, infantile, boundless rage and insecurity. They are two different kinds of phenomena, not variations on the same process of examining the world and making judgments about it. The one is open to healthy engagement with the world, the other has more in common with obsessive handwashing than with any pragmatic encounter with the social environment. They don't deserve the same name.

No doubt there are leading DE theorists developing their serious views from a tragic sense of the Muggle-Wizarding conflict, but I cannot give PS credit for being one of them. I don't agree that he is a normal person who has stumbled into some bad beliefs. When we first encountered NA!Draco, almost two years ago, he hated everyone; he had no real friends, even in Slytherin. He was systematically vicious, he desperately needed to believe in his own singularity and superiority, he couldn't bear to look at his parents with any sort of clarity, and he denied that his day to day life at Hogwarts was his "real" life. I'm sure that DE ideology at the time filled a void for him.

Does he "believe" his pro-DE ideas? I can't second-guess his subjectivity. I suspect he sometimes believes it in the limited sense that it provides some structure and definition, some consistency and coherence to his infuriated take on the world. But this is different from the sense in which you "believe" in the results of an actual, empirical inquiry. Rather, I think he has trouble examining it because it's a patch or bandage that holds him together -- it's too inextricable from how he preserves his sense of specialness and invulnerability. His assertions of DE ideology are too charged not to have an undercurrent of panicked doubt to them; they too often come at highly fraught moments and lead to self-destructive outcomes. He's not going to be persuaded or pressured or shamed into abandoning this kind of thinking; he has to work through the emotional issues that make him cling to it. And it's not going to help him to get sidetracked by a debate over the social or philosophical acceptability of DE ideas -- he needs to focus instead on the personal rage, the fucked-up-ness, at the root of them.

I just think that anyone who could socialize with Harry and Ron's circle and then blame the Weasleys for their own murder, or feel that Hermione was responsible for it at the root, is not just applying a slightly defective lens to the world, he's having trouble with basic reality-testing. Again there might be consistency here -- the consistency of rigidity, of an obsessive handwasher -- but I don't think it deserves the name of ideology.

[continued . . . ]

black_dog @ April 20 2004, 23:01:53 UTC

[. . . continued]

So have I lost all hope for Draco? No, by no means, because I don't think his emotional problems make up anywhere near the whole of his character. Plenty of people are raised by wolves (no pun intended), are damaged by their parents, and fight a determined battle for sanity, drawing on their social experience to learn how less damaged people function and inferring what makes them tick, finding authentic strengths in themselves that let them thrive in the real world rather than drown in fantasy. Draco is a formidable person, in all sorts of ways that we've talked about, and Harry recognized that as part of the process of falling for him. He's made huge progress. You want to cheer for him to overcome his demons and emerge as a healthy, sane person.

The stakes of this battle are part of what makes PS rivetingly interesting. He's not going to get his act togetether and be a grocery clerk somewhere -- or even a misanthropic member of the idle rich. He's going to be a formidable person, with a tremendous capacity for accomplishing things and giving and receiving happiness, if he manages to get himself together. And that's also why it seems urgent not to mis-state the terms of the battle. He's not just burdened with some confused ideas he got from his parents, so that he needs a gentle homiletic experience or two to straighten him out about decency. He's not even well-adapted to his parents' circle, so that he could live with his "ideology" and be perfectly functional in a restricted, DE-centered sphere. He's burdened with rage that makes him susceptible to hateful and self-destructive behavior, and DE ideology I think is just one tool in his environment that he picks up and uses to cut his wrists.

And I really thought he was getting there. I don't care if he remains a snob. I don't even care if he retains some racist assumptions as long as he's functional enough to deal with people competently. I care if he turns out to be actively dysfunctional and hateful, destructive of himself and other people. So when I say that PS is looking like he may be "rotten" I don't mean he's all bad, by any means, or even that his bad parts make him not worth caring about. I just mean that it looks, right now, like he's not strong enough, he may be too damaged, to win the battle with himself that he needs to win. I'm terribly, terribly disappointed in him.

What I hope at this point is, that the past year has given him enough of a taste of normal human connection that he won't be able to forget it. I hope that his old fantastic consolations will no longer work for him so that he is driven to seek out Harry and his friends -- or their equivalents -- once again and on their own terms, to give things another shot. And to make that work, he has to decide that he hasn't just been mistaken, he's been profoundly messed up.

sistermagpie @ April 21 2004, 04:02:04 UTC

Yes, this is totally fascinating!

He's not just burdened with some confused ideas he got from his parents, so that he needs a gentle homiletic experience or two to straighten him out about decency.

This seems at the heart of what we are both saying somehow, so it seems odd that we feel like we're disagreeing. I'm not saying Draco needs re-education in the form of an intellectual discourse, but probably violent real-life learning experience. I don't think his prejudice is something he thinks about exactly anymore than Harry had to think about wanting to punch him on the train. But I think he may need to live through something to understand it.

He has been hanging around with healthier people recently, but that, to me, is the kind of thing that won't be enough--it's like the gentle homiletic experience that way. I just don't think spending some pleasant time with people not like him would be enough to change his entire worldview. He's never truly felt like these were his friends the way M.B. and Pansy are, imo. (I'm hesitant to say when those friendships started, because while MB wasn't in the game early on, she seems to talk about their friendship as if it's been going on since childhood and Pansy too, even if she and Draco fought in 5th year.)

To me it seems like Draco needs more than that to let go of his own self-destructive beliefs, which is what happened with the Outing-and who knows how that would have ended up if his parents hadn't told him being gay was okay? Regardless he seemed to need that kind of baptism by fire to grow.

But I am very skeptical about using the language of choice, or consistency, or principle, or ideology to describe behavior that is as sociopathic as the DE's and their sympathizers.

So that means pretty much all of the Slytherins are possibly sociopathic because Lucius, Goyle, M.B. and Narcissa have all shown themselves to have about the same attitude as Draco here when it comes to the Weasleys bringing it on themselves, unless they just find the whole thing funny. Draco is the one that got punched in the nose, but according to him Harry was close to hitting M.B. as well and I believe it. Draco's comments stand out to me because they're different, but they're all being openly nasty. Actually, they've all been more aggressive towards the Weasleys on the journals.

For instance, it's interesting that you made the distinction between thinking you are too good to mix with Muggles or Muggleborns and supporting the DEs, but I'm wondering just what the difference is. Because it always starts with not wanting to be around certain people, but then what do you do if they're moving in next door? Nobody except Lucius (and I suppose maybe Narcissa) could have ever actually acted as a DE in any way. Where does one draw the line between not caring overmuch about what the DEs have done and supporting them? Goyle is showing support for the DEs by saying "Two down nine to go," as is Narcissa by suggesting that those who behave in such a base manner should not be surprised when tragedy befalls them.

Maybe what would help to understand where our views are differing, if they are (because I think we both agree he's been profoundly messed up-that's why I don't think it was ever possible for him to just grow out of these views quietly), is if you explained exactly what you think Draco has done here, step by step. Why is he saying what he says and not saying what he isn't saying?

Certain things the players have confirmed so we have to take them into account. Like it's been confirmed (unless I'm misreading my stars so correct me if I'm wrong, oh givers of stars!) that Draco is genuinely believes a lot of the things his parents tell him, that the Weasleys being Pureblood means something to him, that he does honestly believe that Muggles and Muggleborns are the root of all the problems here, that it's us against them. He does have a screwed up idea that he needs to get rid of; he's not just saying nasty things. We are meant to take his words to Hermione seriously. Draco was not holding back from mocking the Weasleys with MB because he was letting her do it for him.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 16:16:02 UTC

(con't)

He obstinantly doesn't get MB's 7 hand comment, keeps all death talk about puffskeins, makes an, imo, very funny joke about being MB's stepfather that MB replies to with a cruel comment about the Weasleys. Draco is still a bit cagey in his reply, commenting on their lack of money (as usual), not the lack of kids. It's only in reply to MB's saying Arthur is broken that he comes out with his one straightforward criticism of events: He wouldn't marry Molly because she's fat (which I think is almost instinctual for ps-it's like suggesting he'd marry someone who wore peach) and that she was a thoughtless wife for letting her heirs die. Then he goes back to not wanting to say who he told so, and not acknowledging MB's new lj. I think many kids would react the way MB and ps do to something like this, but that ps seems to be showing personal discomfort in ways MB isn't. He just seemed very resistant and dodgy and careful, much moreso than he'd usually be in speaking with MB. Sure she could be trying to force him into confronting things, but she could also just find it funny in ways he doesn't. Whatever she's doing, ps is being the more sensitive and socially acceptable of the two here by not running with the jokes. I mean, there's no reason he has to publically hash this out on the ljs (we know he wants to see ps and Pansy in person). His being quiet, especially given his public hatred of the twins, may be the tactful response that takes Ron's feelings more into consideration.

So if we're trying to guage how ps thinks about things, maybe that one straightforward comment should be looked at: parents shouldn't teach their Pureblood kids to behave in such a way that they won't be attacked DEs, and should act that way themselves. Later he also says to Lucius that he's glad he has them taking care of him. I do think this could be the first step in Lucius' mind to getting Draco isolated from bad influences and eventually into the DEs. I feel like Draco's maybe trying to be more callous about this than he's able to be, since even fighting with jh and alone with his parents he's still the most discreet of all of them--and how often do the words ps and discreet even land in the same sentence?

So trying to objectively look at what ps' reaction has been, he seems quite clear on saying he warned the Weasleys this would happen, and that this was the natural result of this behavior, yet resists saying it outright. He hasn't yet, to me, seemed to be laughing at anyone about it or acting smug. I don't know how unacceptable Harry will find that. I mean, would he have a problem with ps honestly thinking the Weasleys were courting danger and saying so all this time? Would he see ps choosing not to speak or just ps choosing not to post condolences? Would he see it as significant that ps isn't claiming this openly as his moment of triumph against the Weasleys, even when MB encourages him too?

Ginny has been answering the lj posts. She may not have read all the comments on MB's thread. She doesn't respond to ps' post (so we don't know if she picked up on references to her family or not) but she was hurt by MB's.

black_dog @ April 19 2004, 17:16:22 UTC

ps seems to be showing personal discomfort in ways MB isn't. He just seemed very resistant and dodgy and careful, much moreso than he'd usually be in speaking with MB . . . ps is being the more sensitive and socially acceptable of the two here by not running with the jokes . . . His being quiet, especially given his public hatred of the twins, may be the tactful response that takes Ron's feelings more into consideration . . . maybe that one straightforward comment should be looked at: parents shouldn't teach their Pureblood kids to behave in such a way that they won't be attacked DEs . . . I feel like Draco's maybe trying to be more callous about this than he's able to be . . . he seems quite clear on saying he warned the Weasleys this would happen, and that this was the natural result of this behavior . . . He hasn't yet, to me, seemed to be laughing at anyone about it or acting smug. . . . would [Harry] have a problem with ps honestly thinking the Weasleys were courting danger and saying so all this time?

I don't know where to stop quoting! :) The thing is, I believe we agree, in detail, about what Draco is feeling here (though I have reservations about your reading of M.B. -- see above). But I have to disagree that this is a defense! On the contrary, I think this reaction condemns Draco.

This essentially has Draco justifying his behavior on the basis that Voldemort is an irresistible power, that all should submit to him, if only out of prudence, and that any who resist may or may not deserve extermination but shouldn't be at all surprised when it happens to them. I think this is just utterly morally bankrupt on Draco's part. He should know better, historically -- Grindelwald was beaten, the Nazis were beaten, Voldemort himself has suffered significant tactical defeats, and his own friend Harry is one of V's principal, and often successful antagonists. He has no excuse for despair here. It's not "Slytherin" cunning versus "Gryffindor" recklessness -- even that ultra-Slytherin M.B. seems to find it contemptible. It's just cowardice and evasion and fantasy. It's not even very smart, since it just means (to paraphrase Lovecraft) that he'll be eaten later.

I agree with you that PS knows better, has more moral feeling than he is showing. But that's the point. He's not capable of acting on it. This was a big test, and he failed it. I do see Harry having a big problem with all that.

But, as always, time will tell!

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 19:37:45 UTC

This essentially has Draco justifying his behavior on the basis that Voldemort is an irresistible power, that all should submit to him, if only out of prudence, and that any who resist may or may not deserve extermination but shouldn't be at all surprised when it happens to them.

But that's assuming again that Draco feels like he has to justify his behavior in the way you're describing, and he doesn't if he believes in the basics of DE ideology, and that Purebloods are supposed to rule of the WW. This is what he has openly believed since book 1. If ps sees the Weasleys' behavior as bad it's not despair. In the Malfoys eyes, perhaps, the Weasleys fucked with them and got fucked themselves. Less Nazis, more Sopranos? Justification doesn't come into it. If ps is just starting to suspect this is wrong, then presumably he would have to seek justification before he could abandon his previous beliefs. Many people have this attitude in the RW, seeing some people as asking for this sort of thing because of their behavior. Hell, this attitude is all over canon on the good guys' side.

Of course if Draco was intelligent he could see that Voldemort was the losing side and that the idea of Pureblood superiority was ridiculous, but we can't assume that's so obvious to him since presumably it's been presented to him consistently in a better light throughout his life. And hasn't his family been the one on top from his pov? (And we should perhaps remember that MB uses the word Mudblood too.)

slinkhard @ April 19 2004, 12:00:08 UTC

Blast you! This is what I get for posting before finishing a thread...

a_player @ April 18 2004, 21:48:00 UTC

I took his discussion about fashion at face value myself, since that's so important to him.:-) ;)

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 21:53:58 UTC

If that fashion discussion, with its dates and references, really was just a red herring, then you guys are diabolical! :)

But we knew that.

a_player @ April 18 2004, 22:00:15 UTC

It was not a red herring! I have no idea why you thought it was code! :))

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 22:06:22 UTC

black_dog obviously doesn't remember the horrible peach fads of 1984 and 1993!;-)

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 22:17:16 UTC

Actually, around that year my mother had half the rooms in our house painted peach. So perhaps I was suffering from repressed memories.

a_player @ April 18 2004, 22:01:00 UTC

you guys are diabolical!

Yes.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 22:14:34 UTC

LOL I suspect that's the only star I'm getting for this discussion. But I still think something's fishy.

Lucius: "I would hate to inflict any more pain on him . . . "

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 22:38:19 UTC

I think Lucius is definitely being threatening a lot of the time. But this coud indicate he feels like Draco needs watching, that he's not on board the way he should be.

slinkhard @ April 19 2004, 11:56:50 UTC

Because it could be just that Draco has predicted a bad ending for Weasleys before.

Ooh, we could be diverging back into canon, as they often do:

"You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on the train, first day at Hogwarts? I told you not to hang around with riff-raff like this!" he jerked his head at Ron and Hermione. "Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first!"

slinkhard @ April 19 2004, 18:09:40 UTC

Wow, I got a star!
*proud*

I love the way canon and the rpg mix. (Like the PoA note with the lightening bolt...)

In some ways, it's preferable to the books (look how many people have said they're more affected by the Weasley's now than Sirius in OotP.)

greenvarnish @ April 23 2004, 06:16:51 UTC

That really was a fantastic observation!

And I agree - I'm STILL crying over the Weasley's! I had cried the once when I was reading it the first time, and even then, moreso due to Harry's loss than anything else.

sistermagpie @ April 18 2004, 21:10:15 UTC

And thinking about it further, I think it's important to distinguish between not making waves and becoming DE. Draco to me still seems pretty spunky. I can imagine that this incident simply showed him the folly of openly going against Voldemort and the DEs (I told those Weasleys they were just asking for trouble), so he's going to be much smarter. This, to me, seems very Slytherin as opposed to very Gryffindor. But I think there's a difference between that and completely following Lucius' path. That, to me, would be counterproductive to self-protection. It's probably not an attitude he could hold forever, but I feel like he's still trying to stay out of it as much as possible. Don't piss off Dad's friends, because they're psychos.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 21:51:44 UTC

Well, I agree that Draco is not about to become a DE, but it seems to me that a decision "not to make waves" is a failure, is basically the essential failure that we've been fearing. Harry certainly won't take him on those terms. And his own integrity is shot if he is disgusted by the DE's but has decided to accomodate and live with them. So, I don't see this as a successful solution for him. What's the point of "being much smarter" if it still costs him so many things that are important to him? I think it would be delusive for PS to think he was being "smart" there, and I don't think he does.

black_dog @ April 18 2004, 19:33:55 UTC

RE: Narcissa, I'm assuming "peach" is a code but I can't decide between two completely contradictory readings, as is usual with Narcissa. An excess of peach is associated with 1993 and 1984. 1993 would be an allusion, I think, to the appearance of the Heir of Slytherin. But 1984? Voldemort would have been defeated on Halloween of 1981 or 1982. On the other hand, we know Narcissa has an odd tendency to mistake 1984 for the year after Draco's birth. So I could read "peach" as alluding to the spread of DE ideology (bad enough in 1993 but so much worse in "1984").

But if we assume "peach" refers to the years immediately after Voldemort and the Heir, I wonder if it actually alludes to an anti-DE political reaction after each of those events. In the first interpretation, Narcissa is taking a risk to console Draco after whatever happened yesterday. In the second, Draco is signalling an acquiesence in his parents' united "anti-peach" ideology. I lean strongly toward the first, but can't rule out the second completely.

Maybe one bit of evidence to decide between the two interpretations -- Sally-Anne and her mother are being evicted, at Draco's request, for their "peach" dressing robes. We have reason to think that Sally-Anne (if not her mother) is strongly pro-DE (or at least "anti-mudblood"), so that tends to support "peach" as the color/scent that the code is associating with the DEs.

I think I love M.B. for her reply to Draco. As defeated as Draco sounds, M.B. remains defiant and unconvinced. She tells him in effect that he doesn't sound like himself, and gets him to agree. She has put the effort into redecorating his rooms at Hogwarts after PS says Hogwarts no longer matters to him. She is uncompromisingly hostile to Sally-Anne and all she stands for. With friends like M.B., maybe there's hope for PS yet?

jacay @ April 18 2004, 19:44:36 UTC

Isn't 1984 a book by George Orwell? But I can't think of anything REALLY significant about 1993. Ah well.

xnera @ April 18 2004, 21:12:44 UTC

So we have either (a)So I could read "peach" as alluding to the spread of DE ideology or (b) I wonder if it actually alludes to an anti-DE political reaction after each of those events.

Interesting theories, especially in like of the fact that M.B.'s mom once wore peach-sented perfume, which caused Draco to vomit on her. So, was Draco reacting badly to the mom's openly display of DE support, or reacting badly to the mom's openly display of anti-DE support?

In the past, I felt that Pansy and M.B. were, if not full out DEs, then at least prone to evil, what with Pansy's potion-infused baked goods and all that. Now, though, I'm really starting to believe that they are against the DEs, especially since they have such a dislike for Sally-Anne. So I think it's a good sign that Draco wants to be back in their company.

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 19:27:25 UTC

mrph. I just keep thinking, wrist! Forearm! DARK MARK! AAAAAAAH! Someone stop me? O.O *panicky*

ungemmed @ April 18 2004, 19:55:21 UTC

::panics with you::

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 19:59:22 UTC

nono! Stop the panicking, stop the panicking! O.O *runs in small dorm-sized circles* eeeek!

a_player @ April 18 2004, 20:16:51 UTC

*stops the panicking*

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 20:19:34 UTC

Oh good! :-D Thanks for that. And, you know, for being amazing.

mordororbust @ April 18 2004, 20:36:22 UTC

*snarls* Lucius chimes in, sounding quietly threatening ...

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 21:08:16 UTC

Isn't he evil?

--Lucius' player

mordororbust @ April 18 2004, 21:13:46 UTC

Wonderfully so. :) Few can enrage me the way he does.

xnera @ April 18 2004, 21:14:07 UTC

Oh, yeah. Evil, and delicious, and fun when he's shiny.

mordororbust @ April 18 2004, 21:17:57 UTC

Huzzah for Shiny!Lucius! I really need to get more HP icons ... Really, there's a problem when fifty icons just aren't enough ...

Anonymous @ April 18 2004, 23:59:18 UTC

You know, the shiny thing just took off. I just typed it as a total brainfart and next thing I know, it's all over the fandom? What have I wrought? *grin*

--Lucius' keeper

pyrae @ April 19 2004, 01:04:19 UTC

And again. Why is PS expressing gratitude to his parents for being there when he originally said Avery healed his wrist? I'm feeling more uncomfortable with every post.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 01:27:05 UTC

I think he means that in general his parents will be able to protect him where the Weasleys were not able to protect their children.

pyrae @ April 19 2004, 01:51:45 UTC

Again you've followed Occam's Razor while I immediately leapt to more sinister conclusions. I admit I'm still in doubt about how his comment is being "said," in terms of sarcasm, honesty, faux-honesty, and et cetera. Other threads are giving me the impression that he's at least a bit uncertain right now, and he has a history of faking for the benefit of his parents, but I do tend to suspect the worst, so I'm clueless again. Any other thoughts?

vassilissa @ April 19 2004, 01:47:14 UTC

M.B., I love you sosomuch. More than usual, I mean.