Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 20:53:38 UTC

I hope Pansy returns soon but I don't have a lot of hope.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 20:54:31 UTC

Yeah, I'm most worried about Pansy--what on earth? Pansy, what happened???!!!

darththalia @ April 19 2004, 20:59:27 UTC

I wonder if Pansy and Ron really did get to be friends during friendship week, or whatever it was called, and she's rebelling a bit after the attack on his family. I hope that's the case, anyway.

hated_and_loved @ April 19 2004, 21:09:19 UTC

Draco mentions he hasn't spoken to her all week, since before the Weasleys were discovered. I am very afraid for her ...

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 21:24:44 UTC

I kind of don't, really.

I mean...this situation is using the different sides in a huge way. It's painful because it's dealing with it in such an ugly way, with Harry having to haul off and hit Draco (though of course this isn't the first time that's happened) and wanting to hit Millicent, and Remus having a revelation about Narcissa and the Malfoys being so chilling in the face of real murder and sadness. MB's not fluffy on the inside, her caustic humor extends even to painful situations and hurts people.

I think we can't help but hope that our bad guys--or at least our bad kids, since we like them--will turn out to be somebody we can root for as well, but the game's never taken easy-outs that way. If the Slyths are going to be redeemed--and I hope they are because they're all far to interesting to be DEs--it's going to come at a painful price for them.

That Pansy has been out of contact for a long time--since the party, presumably?--I fear something worse for her. I'm not sure what. It could be cowardice on someone's part--her mother's or Pansy's--but I think the game's earned a possibly bad situation with Pansy as well where the Slyths get a taste of their own medicine. I mean, it's realistic. Being on the bad side usually is far more dangerous than being on the good side, and if the twins were guilty of "dangerous behaviors" surely Pansy could have gotten herself into a heap o'trouble too.

I am so not going to be able to eat tonight. My stomach's in knots.

{{All the good guys on NA for having to deal with the nasty Slytherins}}

**Smacks Slytherins upside the head just this once**

conversant @ April 19 2004, 22:26:35 UTC

It would be sobering for M.B. and potterstinks, would it not, if Pansy had fallen prey to He Who Must Not Be Named? I think it is about time for the bad guys to begin preying on one another, though preying on one another's children would be a particularly painful scenario to watch as it played out. (If a nasty, DE something has happened to Pansy, it would put an especially chilling spin on why the Malfoys thrust Sally Ann Perks on Draco this past holiday. "Here darling, have a new girl; the old one was a bit out of fashion, don't you think?")

Meanwhile, maybe potterstinks is playing the perfect little DE understudy because if he can't have J_H, it feels good to be able to say, "I told you so." I'm holding my breath to see what sort of check the game might issue to bring potterstinks up short. (Pansy.)

Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 22:43:28 UTC

But we have never known what side Pansy is on. She has always talked about Draco, Millicent, baking fancy food, or some other light topic. She may have decided herself not to come back to school.

We really don't know who Millicent will throw herself behind either. Draco did call her a mud-blood lover (or something like that) last week, but I'm not sure that reflects her thinking.


The game wouldn't make any sense if all the Slytherins weren't interested in joining Voldemort.
Some child will follow in the family footsteps, the question is..........who?

conversant @ April 19 2004, 23:12:53 UTC

All good points, of course. And, I did take note of Draco's calling M.B. a mud-blood lover: that certainly bears watching. And you are right that we do not know what side Pansy is on. My only point about Pansy is to follow Sister Magpie's thought that she might be the next victim. If that is what happens, I'm considering how interesting it would be if she were another DE victim: that would surely cause an interesting crisis in Slytherin (pitched differently if her allegiance were said to have been loyal to Voldemort or traitorous). This line of thinking is not a guess as to what will happen, but a speculation about what might result if such a thing were to happen.

The game wouldn't make any sense if all the Slytherins weren't interested in joining Voldemort. All? Most? Some? Some of the time? (When it seems wise, at least.) Certainly the game would make no sense (would be a disappointment) if all the Slyths reject Voldemort. It will be most interesting to see who does join He Who Blahblahblah.

The issue of "interest" is also of great importance because, of course, in addition to the possibility that some/most/all Slytherins might be interested in joining Voldemort's cause or in joining Death Eater society or perhaps even in cozying up to so powerful a leader as Voldemort himself, other Slytherins presumably have a "vested interest" in joining Voldemort so as to avoid breaking the alliances their parents forged or to avoid defying/disappointing their parents or to avoid endangering themselves or their families.

Some child will follow in the family footsteps, the question is............who? Yes, and I suspect we'll have to wait a while to find out. Following in the family footsteps for a Slytherin, of course, means learning a skillful dance in which ones allegiances are kept obscure for as long as possible.

sistermagpie @ April 20 2004, 00:01:31 UTC

I don't think Pansy can literally be allied with anyone--she's a kid. They're all still at school, and the DEs aren't actively trying to recruit them, I don't think. Draco is a different case because his father is who he is, but even he faces the mark sometime in the future, not just now. We don't know how Pansy feels about the issue of Purity etc., but the default position on her, it seems to me, is that she sides with MB and Draco.

So I think now Pansy is just MB and Draco's friend--someone they both care about a lot. If something happened to her it would be a wake-up call for them and it could probably come from either side. She could run afoul of a DE or anything else, really. But if something has happened to her they'll be faced with the same awful feeling the Weasleys were, that something was happening to her and they didn't notice.

fluffers @ April 20 2004, 01:33:20 UTC

I think we can also count the possibility that she may not be recruited ever, no matter her alignment. From all we know about DEs, women certainly don't seem to be in great number amongst them. The ones we do know are less the dignified aristocrat who aligns themselves with DE ideals, such as Narcissa, and more the fanatical servant like Bellatrix. It is more likely a woman be the wife of a DE than be a DE herself.

hated_and_loved @ April 19 2004, 21:12:59 UTC

Can anybody explain what this comment by Draco means:

Now do you see why Father and I don't share your enthusiasm?

Were they talking about Harry at dinner last night?

allthat_jazz @ April 19 2004, 21:15:08 UTC

They must have been. I get the feeling that Narcissa suggested Draco should do something in regards to Harry( i. e., spy on him, or as another person suggested, try to turn him to the dark side), but I'm not sure what. I don't like this. *whimper*

lazy_daze @ April 19 2004, 21:18:54 UTC

THAT'S WHAT IT SEEMS LIKE! What is going ON?! I'm all wibbly and uncomfortable, I do not like whatever is going on, Hary and Draco fighting and the Malfoys talking about Harry for whatever reason and Draco being all undefensive of Harry and saying mean things (wild speculation: he is pretending to be so anti Harry so that whatever his Mum was on about Re: Harry she will drop it and therefore put him [Harry] in less danger [/craziness]) and then Pansy not ebing here, everything is stinking of DEness and onminous...ness and wah nothing is nice.

lazy_daze @ April 19 2004, 21:20:34 UTC

http://www.livejournal.com/users/potterstinks/36512.html?thread=746912#t746912 HARRY

lazy_daze @ April 19 2004, 21:22:00 UTC

WAH STOP THIS IS MESSING WITH MY OTP >:((((

jupistrahan @ April 19 2004, 21:23:46 UTC

For some reason I keep getting this weird feeling that Narcissa knew all about Draco and Harry's relationship for a while, and she was rather pleased with the arrangement. It seems rather plain that she's fond of Harry, and that Lucius is not, but... 8\

And Lucius, darling, you need to shut that gorgeous mouth before an angry wolf decides he's hungry for pureblood. *wibbles*

lazy_daze @ April 19 2004, 21:25:48 UTC

I know, and now she seems miffed that they're not on friendly terms, and I bet a fucking lot that it isn't out of any concern for Harry, it's because whatever plan she had depended on them being friends >:(!!!!!

lisdelacroix @ April 19 2004, 21:52:42 UTC

All the thinly veiled (and very subtle) insults are driving me insane, because I'm like JUST SPIT IT OUT for I have no tact and subtlety whatsoever, lol.

Its really worrying me, though, where everyone stands and especially what Draco's going to do, which side he's going to take.

Also, love to the fantastic players. :)

hated_and_loved @ April 19 2004, 21:59:40 UTC

I don't know, this feels like the most open conversation this group of people has ever had with each other. It's all outright, "You are a Death Eater, Lucius; you're forcing your son to be like you," and "Clearly you're lying about something here, Mr Malfoy, because you said A and B, and both can't be true, so which is it?" Granted, it's not an honest conversation (Lucius can't help but lie), but there's nothing veiled about his hatred for Lupin or Harry—he's perfectly honest about that. I am absolutely loving this!

lisdelacroix @ April 19 2004, 22:04:46 UTC

True, its all very honest, but there's still a mix of talk, where they move from basic statements, to downright dirty facts and such. It kind of moves from trying to not be terribly blatant, from comments like "It must be hard to go through life laboring under such heavy delusions." to something (in my opinion) more striking like "Being a Dark Creature means I know one when I see one, you bastard." Its very fascinating. Yet its making me very twitchy in ways that I can't quite explain.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 22:01:26 UTC

Well, at least Harry's now told us exactly what Draco said--he got off pretty easily, I'd say.

Though I'm intrigued with the idea that Draco was letting MB make fun of the Weasleys just so that he didn't have to do it himself. That didn't occur to me--I guess I always figured Draco would want to be front and center when it came to making fun of someone if he was so inclined.

lisdelacroix @ April 19 2004, 22:11:30 UTC

Yeah, I'm surprised that all he did was punch him, and apparently someone (I didn't catch who) gave him some tentacles.

I think right now he's trying to be very passive, and I'm hoping he's in a period of deciding. I'm kind of seeing it as a very serious parallel to what normal graduating teens are going through this time of year, what to do with the rest of their life, where to go, how to make their own decisions, etc. I see that he's been using his "model son" icon a bit more than usual, and I think he's trying to please his parents, while not exactly aggravating the "other side."

I find it intriguing that Draco wasn't spouting off the insults either ... he's been slightly more muted lately, I think. I'm very nervous as to which road he's going to pick. [bites nails]

moocow1985 @ April 19 2004, 22:54:47 UTC

The tentacles were Harry's work as well

lisdelacroix @ April 19 2004, 23:15:02 UTC

Ah. Thank you! :)

allthat_jazz @ April 19 2004, 22:03:24 UTC

Ah. Harry spills as to why he hit Draco.


Gah.

black_dog @ April 19 2004, 22:57:50 UTC

And Narcissa, stunned for about ten minutes, asks Harry how his hand is.

lazy_daze @ April 19 2004, 22:03:58 UTC

WAH. *spams this post* Why, Draco, why?

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 22:12:44 UTC

Yeah, I wonder that too. I mean...because he's a little bastard just doesn't seem to cover it. I'm really confused. He likes Harry, we know, which doesn't mean he can't have been out to get him, but I just don't get why he'd be laying in wait to ambush Harry with this. They were fighting, but they didn't hate each other.

Okay, now we know he said it to Hermione, which at least explains that he was speaking to someone he has deep hatred for. Does that mean that in asking if Ron wasn't on the train because he was dead too he was trying to hint that it's being involved with Hermione that gets people killed? Because that's what he seemed to hint to Ernie earlier. It really adds another layer to think that what Draco did was blame Hermione somehow, try to make her feel guilty: Is Ron not on the train because you got him killed too? Pity it was real wizards that had to die instead of a mudblood...

So is that what Draco really believes? Because I feel like this must be about something he really believes.

akimbie @ April 19 2004, 22:07:39 UTC

is this insinuating what I think? Oh My God... I should go to bed

moocow1985 @ April 19 2004, 22:58:20 UTC

It seems to me like purestblood knows about what Harry and Draco have been up to during the past few months. This is very very worrying. I wonder how he knows? Did Draco tell him?

akimbie @ April 19 2004, 23:00:17 UTC

maybe he doesn't know so much as he suspects what's happening or has happened... just like everybody else it seems like speculation that j_h just isn't denying

Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 22:22:33 UTC

I think it's facinating how direct Harry is being... Lupin seems to be reacting with pure, knee-jerk anger, while Harry is being the one presenting the most solid arguments... against Lucius! Quite a formidable debater.

And Draco hasn't spoken directly to Harry... he's staying out of the argument as well. He's directing all of his comments directly at his mother. Funny how he hasn't denied any of it so far... his statements, his father's status... hmmm.

Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 22:25:20 UTC

And then there's Draco's rather passive "Don't bother" at Crabbe's suggestion of violence. That's pretty funky too. Or, is it, "I'll handle this myself"? Gaaaah!

Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 22:32:24 UTC

I think it's rather sad. Crabbe is showing his support and Draco says that a pounding isn't worth it.

hated_and_loved @ April 19 2004, 22:45:59 UTC

I agree. I think Draco is actually pretty upset that Harry hit him. Witness the repeated vomiting and comments like "I think I'm going to be ill again." That strongly reminds me of the Outing, where he couldn't stop vomiting when he found out Harry had a crush on him. That was a sign of serious inner turmoil, and I tend to think the same of his illness today.

Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 22:49:07 UTC

ooooh! Harry's responded!

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 22:55:08 UTC

Yeah, the dynamic just seems strange. Draco is being completely passive--even in letting MB mock the Weasleys so he doesn't have to, if Harry is correct, though he might not be. It wasn't even a fight on the train from his pov (or from Harry's), it was one of those times when Harry just pounded on him because ps was asking for it (talk about "I told you so.")

I don't mean this to sound stupid, as if Harry isn't disgusted with Draco right now, but he sounds more possessive of him than ever. Not maybe so much because he can stand the sight of him at the moment, but just in the sense of not letting Lucius have him:

*His remark about telling Lucius exactly what Draco's done to him.

*He suggests Draco's being unable to resist Imperius would help Lucius force him to be a DE, suggesting this is Lucius turning Draco into a monster rather than blaming it soley on Draco.

*He cites Lucius' influence for a big part of why he hit Draco.

*He says it's up to him whether he and Draco interact, just as he decided to punch him.

*He calls him Draco, which I guess is partially just logic since he's already speaking to a Malfoy, but still that is what Harry calls him in his head.

*He tells Lucius it's a waste of time to tell Draco Harry won't be visiting the Manor--presumably because Harry would hardly want to visit anyway, but there's also that defiant possible alternate reading there where Harry leaves it open that if he wanted to visit he would.

In general, it just seems like while he's angry at ps, he's also more angry at the people who make him as ugly as he is, like they can't be separated.

And then Draco's so oddly passive, not backing up Lucius...in fact, he and Harry rather heartbreakingly agree during the convo when they both tell Narcissa that no, Harry will not feel badly about hitting Draco later, if for different reasons. Then he steps in to tell Crabbe not to bother with Harry. And now Narcissa's trying to cozy up to Harry asking if he hurt his hand when he broke Draco's nose, like she's distancing herself from Draco's bad behavior and thinking she and Harry should still be friends? It just seems like the theme here is that as badly as Harry hurt Draco and wanted to hurt him, he's the one who cares about him, and Draco is doing nothing to help himself.

I don't know what he was thinking speaking to Hermione the way he did. Did he try to be civil to Harry before Hermione said something and he turned on her? Which is not to suggest Hermione deserved what he said, just wondering how things went down. I just feel like Harry's not angry at ps the way he always used to be, thinking he was a slimy bastard just like his father.

I don't think Harry's finished here, especially with Draco. I don't think he's going to let him run away from this. He's got him vomiting (which yes, is exactly what happened after the outing and even then it seemed like he was disgusted with himself) and my god, he got him to swear. Has that ever happened ever on the game? Seriously, I think ps may be about to go through the ringer again for his own good, only this time it'll be Harry running him through it.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 23:03:49 UTC

Oh, and Harry's response to Draco's "You Wish" is the final straw. He wishes Draco were smart enough to be scared. Hang in there Harry, you'll be saying, "I told you so," soon enough.

Also, hurray for MB's little clarification.

black_dog @ April 19 2004, 23:19:51 UTC

Or maybe, he wishes he could believe that Draco only said these things because he was scared.

How humiliating this must all be for PS though.

sistermagpie @ April 19 2004, 23:47:11 UTC

Could be, but I don't know...Harry seems to be being pretty clear about what he thinks is going on with Draco and it's not about him being scared but stupidly influenced. At least that's what I'm getting from what Harry's saying.

Definitely humiliating for Draco, but then humiliation has been good for him before. But I think it's maybe significant that he's using his "suffer unfairly" icon so much. I think it would really do well for him to work out exactly what's going on here, because I feel like we don't really get his pov exactly yet. I mean, sometimes it seems like Draco can't Draco figure out exactly how things really are unless they all come crashing down on his head.

black_dog @ April 19 2004, 23:45:10 UTC

There's a striking contrast here with the way Remus (mis?)handled Narcissa on the other thread, possibly missing signals that Narcissa's actions were more complex than they seemed. In general, Harry seems much more acute and sure of what he's doing than Remus, which makes Remus' pose of protection kind of paradoxical.

Interesting points about Harry being protective of PS. Most of the remarks you cite involve Harry scoring points off Lucius. I think Harry enjoys humiliating and outsmarting Lucius (and he's doing that with a vengeance tonight), and I wonder how much of that is a disdainful performance for PS' sake, since PS is so cowed by Lucius. The way he waits so long to address Draco directly may just be part of his more indirect style, in contrast to, say, Remus.

I think he's letting Draco squirm, especially when he tells Narcissa to ask Draco why he punched him. I think he recognizes a guilty conscience in Draco and thinks he'd rather let Draco hurt himself with recriminations than pile on directly. But whether or not he's actually being protective of Draco, I think he's definitely sad about the fight -- at one point someone asks him if he's OK and he says no. At the same time, his willingness to ask why Crabbe shouldn't pound him does suggest he's almost eager for a reason not to think so badly of PS.

sistermagpie @ April 20 2004, 00:38:04 UTC

Um, I didn't say he was being protective. I said he was being possessive. Heh heh heh. That's more the image I get, and you're right, it is something that helps him score points of Lucius. But I don't think Harry would do it if he didn't feel it was honest, and I think Draco's passively watching it backs Harry up on that.

It's not that I think Harry is seeing ps as the big victim here--obviously he let him have it and is ready to do it again. But I think there's a huge difference in the liberties Harry's taking with Draco in his conversation with Lucius. He seems to me to be making it clear that he's a force to be reckoned with on this issue--and the issue here is Draco: what Harry may and may not do with him, what kind of influence Lucius has on him. They are arguing over him while he says nothing. The argument goes into different things, of course, but the fight is over Draco. When Lucius suggests that their relationship will end now, Harry basically tells him he (Harry) will be the judge of that.

I don't think he really needs to let ps squirm--it almost seems like that's over with now. He seems very in-your-face with him. I wonder if Draco is thinking long and hard about Harry's last comment to him ("I wish you were") because it's not in keeping with their previous flat antagonism. (Fuck you/you scared?/You wish) It's Lucius Harry doens't think is worth it, I think, and handing ps over to him doesn't seem quite the right way to show that.

I have no idea what's going to happen, but it seems like the fight's just gearing up here. This gets right back to the whole issue of whether jh wants to change Draco. It seems like Harry's position is that it's not him who's changing him, it's Lucius. So who's the real ps? I think even he needs to find out!

black_dog @ April 20 2004, 08:10:21 UTC

I didn't say he was being protective. I said he was being possessive.

Oh. *facepalms* Sorry for the misreading. Was following too many threads and trying to lob in comments, all at once.

I guess I can see "possessive" in the sense that he wants to destroy, to explode Lucius' influence in Draco's life, and may feel this is an obstacle to his own influence and claims. And again, I was struck by his willingness to sieze on the first sign that Draco might be feeling some kind of remorse, when he told Crabbe not to bother pounding Harry. But I'm not sure I see him willing to make much of a direct effort with PS at this point, without some dramatic signal of regret or apology from PS. He really makes no effort to speak to PS at all, except for the Crabbe moment -- he leaves that to Seamus.

I think maybe he's just too angry and upset right now. His response to M.B. is uncharacteristically cruel, almost Lucius-like in the way it hits her where she's most vulnerable, on the question of whether Draco really likes her. He is not overtly rude but bristlingly impatient with Narcissa. I don't think he quite trusts himself to argue with Draco right now. Seamus' report is that he's quite ready to hit him again.

Of course, none of this is inconsistent with a desire to wake Draco up, to shake him up so that a reconciliation is possible. But I don't think Harry is going to compromise on extracting some big concessions from PS first, and I'm not wildly optimistic that that will happen.

Wow, am I contrary tonight, or what? Sorry about that! :) I'm devastated by the breakup, but I think it's been coming and I'm very reluctant to sentimentatlize it, or to excuse Draco's role. The boy has serious, serious problems.

sistermagpie @ April 20 2004, 16:24:50 UTC

Oh, I didn't think Harry was ready to talk to Draco or had his mind turned towards waking him up at all at the moment. It's more like he's yelling at Lucius for ruining him. He does show sadness in his confrontation with ps. He'd hit him again in a second, of course, but I don't think Draco is the focus of his anger in the same way Lucius is. It's not that he's saying to Lucius, "You shall never have him!" but I do think he's taking liberties in speaking about Draco in ways he wouldn't have before, so that Lucius' treatment of Draco is part of what Harry hates about him, whereas earlier Draco and Lucius were the same in his eyes. I don't really think that's sentimentalizing it.

I also don't get where the idea of excusing Draco's role comes in. The main point I see about this whole thing is exactly the opposite--that Draco is a force in himself. Harry, quite rightly, accuses Lucius as having shaped this role for him because Lucius is the person who taught him to hate Muggles and Mudbloods, but what's more important now, imo, is how Draco manifests those beliefs in himself. I think the way he does manifest them shows a possibly better (at least more honest) character in Draco, but one which is turned all the more resolutely towards the wrong ends.

The thing is I feel like too often we look at things only from Harry's pov because it is so much like our own--we can see the Malfoys and the DEs as petty thugs. But we shouldn't speak in terms of Harry extracting concessions from ps or demanding better behavior because on this issue there is no compromise. Draco is not, imo, just failing to live up to the boy we and Harry hoped he could be. He's somebody with a strong belief system who's protecting something important, he thinks. What he's doing now is not a sign of weak character, imo. He's not somebody who just can't stand up against his father's wishes. I think we're seeing someone standing his ground because he thinks he's right. If he had Harry's beliefs it would have been the bad guys he'd have confronted on the train.

I mean, look at what he said on the train, which presumably nobody told him to say. After not joining in on the "wehavefive" jokes from Lucius, Narcissa and M.B., he blasts Hermione: It should have been you who was killed. Strong stuff (hateful stuff) and he's the only one that says it. He's not bothering much with the Weasleys. What happened to them was unfortunate but he won't stop pressing the reason for it, in his pov. His hatred he saves for the real source of all evil (and the reason the Weasleys were killed, presumably, in his eyes): mudbloods.

Lucius may twirl his moustache and try to be witty about Imperius. Narcissa may take refuge in good manners and be astonished when Harry and Remus don't want to take tea with her. But Draco is not like his parents this way, imo. I think he feels like what he said had to be said as much as Harry feels like what he did had to be done.

So I don't think this is about compromise or apologizing to Harry. You don't apologize to someone when you feel righteous. I think if Draco is going to change he's going to need to see the error of beliefs that right now form the basis of his whole pov. I don't know how this will happen. When homophobia was the issue he lucked out when his parents suddenly changed their views and told him gay sex was okay--had they not he may have spent the rest of his life closeted and miserable. That shows, imo, just how seriously he takes the belief system his parents feed him. He doesn't just apply it to other people, he's probably willing to hate *himself* if that's how it works out.

Now he's got his parents' support, so I don't know if he'll be able to wise up. But I do think those significant differences between them may end up becoming more apparent and eventually lead to a break. A ps confronted with the idea that his parents are *wrong* about something is just incredible to imagine and I have complete confidence in the players to do it right if it comes to that. I don't know if I'm just hoping for the best, but it really does seem like an inevitable conclusion when you've got two slippery parents always trying to keep themselves out of trouble, and an extremist son with no such ability.

conversant @ April 20 2004, 01:36:51 UTC

Interesting point about the Remus & Narcissa thread vs. Harry's thread with Lucius (or Draco). I wonder whether Remus has mishandled Narcissa (meaning, I take it, that his his response would fail to have a constructive effect on her attitudes/behaviours).

I suspect that his response has served as a wake-up call for her with regard to the impression she is making. In the threads attached to Draco's post, she is being more diplomatic (her pursuit of answers with regard to the substance of Harry's fight with Draco; her inquiry about Harry's hand). Where she was exceedingly crass in her posts over the past few days (tacitly comparing her concern over Draco's fall with the Weasley's grief over George and Charlie; commenting over and over again about the importance of family and about her joy in having her son with her), she is now being more careful.

At the very least, Remus has called to her attention the issue of Lucius's being a Death Eater, so here she is, hovering about doing something like damage control while Harry is provoking Lucius in hopes that he'll admit just that. (J_H: "You rotten Death Eater swine!" Pb: "Look sharp, Little Boy Who Might Not Live Much Longer, Voldemort's going to get you. Or so I hear.")

I'm not inclined to see Narcissa either as the arch-villain some folks are proposing or as a woman whose actions are much more complex than they seem, though I would like to know what she proposed over dinner. I take it, however, that your point about Narcissa is that she lives in a very tight spot between whatever conscience she has, whatever love she feels for her son and/or husband, and the dangers of being a DE wife. Someone not long ago reminded her of the DE wife (what was her name?) who was killed for being uppity, so it is well to remember that Narcissa doesn't have much freedom to express opposition. I wonder whether she would do anything risky to prove herself to Remus? (I doubt this, but it would be interesting.)

I think there is a contrast between Narcissa's response to Remus (if we take her posts on Draco's thread as a new strategy crafted in reaction to that earlier exchange) and ps's on-going fight with J_H. It seems to me that ps has responded to J_H's chastisement (for calling Hermione a Mudblood) by going out of his way to be as stereotypical a JR. DEATH EATER as possible in fulfillment of what he takes to be Harry's vision of him. Narcissa, on the other hand, seems to have taken Remus's dressing down to heart enough to wish to prove it wrong (or at least to prove that Remus holds a reductionist and inadequate view of her).

black_dog @ April 20 2004, 08:46:45 UTC

(meaning, I take it, that his his response would fail to have a constructive effect on her attitudes/behaviours).

Actually, that language reminds me that in using the word "handled" I may have bought in too much to Remus' effort to reform/wake up Narcissa. On reflection, I do think that to some extent Remus' premise was wrong, that Narcissa is juggling some very dangerous contradictory roles (although her way of doing it is not above criticism.) I also think that Remus and Narcissa both have something to lose if either mismanages the relationship.

I take it, however, that your point about Narcissa is that she lives in a very tight spot between whatever conscience she has, whatever love she feels for her son and/or husband, and the dangers of being a DE wife.

Yes, this is pretty much my position on her, though I go back and forth wildly on the question of how much power she has in the relationship. I don't think she's simply afraid of Lucius -- I think there's a balance of power there, perhaps based on Narcissa knowing where all the bodies are buried, and probably in part on her simply being much smarter than Lucius despite her carefully cultivated ditzy surface. We saw a little of that a while back when N and L quarrelled. But there are limits to how far she can push things.

I was fascinated by one of Narcissa's remarks tonight, where I thought she dropped the mask a little bit -- she tells Remus "You are lashing out at me without having taken the time to analyse specific situations from all angles. " It is very un-Narcissa-like language, a reminder that she does, indeed, analyse situations carefully and intelligently. It comes right after she has refused to deny that Lucius is a DE, carefully objected to "open" accusations, and faulted Remus for letting his emotions get in the way of his thinking. While I understand Remus' frustration with her, he's so obviously wrong about her being an airhead that it makes me doubt his judgment throughout this thread.

So I do think Narcissa is a highly cunning survivor but also maybe a bit more than that -- I think she has a program, though I'm not entirely sure what it is. One component, definitely, and maybe the one that is most important to her at this point in her life is to keep Draco safe. I think this partly explains her longstanding cultivation of Remus and Harry, as well as other overt behaviors (especially toward Draco) that have been less successful.

In fact part of the fascination of Narcissa is that for all her intelligence, she often miscalculates. I think she miscalculated badly in her reaction to the Weasley murder, and not so much because she was caught up in any DE ideology but because she was blinded by her own class prejudices -- she can't quite take the Weasleys seriously; they are stock lower-class comic characters who cannot rise, in her eyes, to the level of tragedy. And as a result, she was callous about them in a way that has radically undermined her standing with Remus and Harry, and undermined a connection that is very important to her, for Draco's sake as well as her own. I think she also suffers sometimes from a touchy pride, that might have prevented her, in turn, from managing Remus a little better in their disastrous conversation.

But Remus is also being foolish. By sabotaging the relationship he undermines Narcissa's power, and it is probably not in his interest to do this. Narcissa's dalliance with the good guys has complicated Lucius' life and kept him off balance. I confess that in paranoid moments I have also considered whether Narcissa might be functioning as a spy in alliance with Snape. And ironically, Narcissa has also extended a zone of protection that benefitted Remus directly when he was kidnapped, as she almost-tactfully points out in her reference to his silver consumption. She's been a valuable ally, perhaps too valuable to sacrifice in a moment of indignation, however justified.

Would love to talk more Narcissa with you. She just absolutely fascinates me. I'm going to cut off only because it's 4:30 am but may post more on this tomorrow. What do you think her agenda has been in cultivating Remus and Harry?

tacks @ Deleted Deleted

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darththalia @ April 19 2004, 22:51:36 UTC

The last exchange between Narcissa and Harry cracked me up, anyway. Poor Harry. It's good to see him sticking up for himself.

zedmeister @ April 19 2004, 22:53:33 UTC

So Narcissa's asking after Harry's hand (and his thumb is broken!). Does this mean she's decided he was right to hit Draco, or is she trying not to take sides?

Heh, and she directly contradicts Draco's opinion of Madam Pomfrey.

muggleangel @ April 19 2004, 22:57:58 UTC

Hmm. Did anyone catch Lucius saying that Lupin's sterile? Is this new info, or is it just me?

Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 23:09:18 UTC

::a little lost:: Do you mean the bit about scars?

muggleangel @ April 19 2004, 23:14:44 UTC

No, the 'shooting blanks' comment.

a_player @ April 19 2004, 23:15:48 UTC

He's not. He just chooses not to breed because A: it's illegal for him to do so and B: werewolfry is passed on to offspring, and he wouldn't dare do that to someone.

Also, Sirius hasn't got a uterus. :-D

- Lupin's player

muggleangel @ April 19 2004, 23:21:04 UTC

Ah, thanks.

Damn, no mpreg for this soap opera... :)

pyrae @ April 19 2004, 23:02:08 UTC

This sounds oddly reminiscent of a conversation in CoS during the Dueling Club scene. I don't have my book; can anyone check?

th_australia @ Deleted Deleted

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pyrae @ April 19 2004, 23:08:23 UTC

That's what I thought. Wish I knew if it was significant at all or just coincidence.

th_australia @ Deleted Deleted

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a_player @ April 19 2004, 23:15:45 UTC

Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down, and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked, too. Harry looked up nervously at Lockhart and said, "Professor, could you show me that blocking thing again?"

"Scared?" muttered Malfoy, so that Lockhart couldn't hear him.

"You wish," said Harry out of the corner of his mouth.

th_australia @ Deleted Deleted

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a_player @ April 19 2004, 23:22:33 UTC

Hahaha! That probably came off more icily than I meant. I just knew it was there so I thought I would help.

pyrae @ April 19 2004, 23:21:58 UTC

Excellent!

pyrae @ April 19 2004, 23:16:39 UTC

Another little poke in the back of my mind. Probably just reader feed, then, as you say. Thanks! :)

liasantana @ April 19 2004, 23:36:12 UTC

Possibly just wishful thinking, but this... could it possibly suggest that Harry's more aware of Draco's 'relationship' with Sally-Anne Perks than he lets on?

Hm.

Also this is interesting I feel. And I am also over analyzing and wondering if this is a double entendre for the possible 'draco freaking out over sex theory that has not actually been proven or has it?'. Erm.

hated_and_loved @ April 19 2004, 23:47:41 UTC

I'm not sure what you mean in the second part of your post. I took that comment by Harry to mean that he wishes Draco were more afraid of what will happen to him if he keeps this shit up.

liasantana @ April 19 2004, 23:58:27 UTC

I meant that it could possibly refer to the time when Draco freaked out after Cannes. As I had just been devouring some of the past discussions on nraged, the theory that the freak out was because of having sex (oral or otherwise) with Harry came to mind.

But I always manage to twist everything into what I want to believe!

vassilissa @ April 20 2004, 04:19:38 UTC

I'm not sure about double entendres, but I am sure that when Draco throws up, it's about very strong stress in the relationship between him and Harry. As strong as when he outed Harry, then found out that Harry really was gay.

I think kind of a mixture between 'oh my god, what's happening?' and 'oh my god, what have i done?' For someone to throw up for emotional reasons, their whole world has to turn over, and although he keeps saying it's just the blood he swallowed, I think it's pretty plainly emotional.

liasantana @ April 20 2004, 13:04:36 UTC

Oh good point! The 'throwing up from blood' could just be an excuse to keep up appearances, as well as/or maybe he's trying to convince himself that he threw up only because of the blood he swallowed and nothing else. Draco isn't exactly the most forward person, what with being a Malfoy - where I doubt aristocratic families are all that keen about showing their emotions in public, and being Lucius Malfoy's son.

Also I think Draco may not even know what he feels, or what's happening, himself. And when in doubt, it's always easier to revert to the known.

Hm. Just a thought. The theory earlier up on this post about what topic Narcissa could possibly have brought up over dinner in France - now if it -was- some nefarious plan to involve Harry, is it possible that Draco's pushing Harry away?

*bites lip*

I am totally pumped and in H/D fantasy right now. *sigh*

hezzabeth @ April 20 2004, 10:06:11 UTC

Oh god I so dont want to think about what Millicent could be reffering to.

liasantana @ April 20 2004, 12:51:03 UTC

Do you mean this:

MB: When people suddenly like someone they have always hated just because something bad happened to that someone.

I took it that she was referring to the Weasleys, and most people's attitude towards them after the tragedy. But that's not much of an insult to Harry, is it?

:-?

frozen_jelly @ April 20 2004, 21:00:31 UTC

I took it that, while others might, she is not going to change her whole opinion of the Weasleys just because something bad has happened to them, and thus implying that she is many tings but not a hypocrit.

hezzabeth @ April 20 2004, 23:03:53 UTC

Well she could be reffering to that, but you never really know with her now do you?

Anonymous @ April 19 2004, 23:50:17 UTC

Gaaah! Now, Lucius and Harry are fighting about Pettigrew! This whole thread is bouncing all over the place... it's almost like Lucius is commenting, then Harry immediately challenges. Lucius withdraws, finds another place to throw a witty comment, but Harry follows him there. He really is holding his own here.

darththalia @ April 20 2004, 00:06:01 UTC

Have a link? I think I missed that bit.

Anonymous @ April 20 2004, 00:16:10 UTC

curse my complete lack of linkage skills! The most recent posts are during the Lupin thread towards the beginning... when they go off about Dark Creatures and whatnot. The two most recently entered posts are right around there.

moocow1985 @ April 20 2004, 00:54:15 UTC

linklink!!

darththalia @ April 20 2004, 02:08:12 UTC

Thank you!