Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 19:03:04 UTC

I agree! She's being very fair about this. I don't think that the school overreacted, but Pansy (and Professor McGonagall) brings up a good point that the punishments to the students were not exactly fair. I like her Colin Creevey example.

zorb @ April 26 2003, 19:10:28 UTC

I disagree. Her comparison was way off. Everyone's forgetting the large stretch of time in between the kissing incident and last night's debacle. They were friends for that time, of a sort, so the incident obviously didn't make Draco as uncomfortable as both he and Pansy claim. What Draco said was thoughtless and cruel. If he's going to lash out so emotionally, everyone else will respond in kind, and "Yo Mama" insults are not as hurtful as what he was saying.

And I rather suspect that, were he to shape up, the punishments would go away.

kat99999 @ April 26 2003, 19:16:58 UTC

And I rather suspect that, were he to shape up, the punishments would go away.

Quite.

Pansy is good at twisting a situation, I'll give her that. But by no means is she right. There is a lot of overlooking in her post, as I would fully expect there to be. She doesn't even consider the idea that Draco was on good terms with Harry after the incident - he was certainly no victim.

As for the Colin Creevey example, well... okay, so yes, the teachers may have overlooked that, but I think telling somebody that your mother doesn't like you is a lot less of a life altering situation than being outed to a school full of people.

If he's going to lash out so emotionally, everyone else will respond in kind.

Again, that's exactly what I think. What Draco said was intentional and he made a conscious decision to post what he said, no matter how much he regrets it now and I do feel for him, I love potterstinks as much as the next NA fan. But the school have the right to react and in a situation like this, they're going to.

ex_meiko437 @ April 26 2003, 20:13:31 UTC

Oh, I totally and completely agree with you. The parallel Pansy drew between Draco's outburst and Colin's capslock war isn't a good parallel. First of all, anyone with brain power can determine that Colin isn't the brightest person. No one would honestly take Colin seriously, and Draco wouldn't unless Colin had hit him when he was already low, like he did. Especially when Narcissa has a journal and it is plain for all to see that she loves and adores her son, even to the point of leaving her husband's home to be in contact for him. Despite her superficial qualities and self-absorbtion, she really does love Draco, even though that love is coming really late. Her public letters to her "Little Dragon" are testament to this, and I'm more than positive that Hogwarts knows. Even Ron in one of the books was saying "it's a shame his mother likes him so much", or else he'd have been at Durmstrang. At most, Colin would have gotten a detention for his loss of temper, or counseling like Ron had for his, but it's not NEARLY as bad as using slurs like "queer" and being such a PRAT with that cruel "joke".

conversant @ April 26 2003, 19:17:45 UTC

Ah, you beat me to it. I took too long to write my post. I agree with you absolutely.

fourscore @ April 26 2003, 19:20:23 UTC

Actually, the only punishments that can go away are the detentions. What are they going to do, award him 430 points and a prefect badge for NOT being homophobic for 2 months? I doubt it. Those are permanent.

zorb @ April 26 2003, 19:28:37 UTC

Yeah, the detentions are what I meant. I could see him being awarded points for steps along the way, though.

fourscore @ April 26 2003, 19:30:17 UTC Re:

Yeah, but he probably doesn't even care about the detentions. They're pretty dull in comparison to losing his prefect's badge (no head boy for Draco!) and ALL of his house's points (no house cup for Slytherin, once again).

zorb @ April 26 2003, 19:36:56 UTC

Well, as McGonagall said, this has been a long time coming for PS, and the points were entirely Snape's decision. With the amount he's complained about various detentions in the past, I do think they'll matter to him, and having them lifted will be a relief. It'll be something, even if he can't get the other things back.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 19:45:55 UTC

I think what will matter to Draco is that his parents are completely against him. And that he'd been mistaken about Harry.
Material things will not mean as much, no matter how bad.

fourscore @ April 26 2003, 19:48:57 UTC

I agree, and the things Narcissa and Lucius said can't be taken back. And the reason (I feel) that Lucius did this was BECAUSE Draco lost his prefect's badge and all those points along the way. Lifting any of the punishments at all isn't going to change the fact that Lucius asked him to justify his EXISTENCE. I mean, Lucius basically told him that he doesn't deserve to exist. Narcissa is disgusted, when she's the one who taught him to be that way. Really very mad at Narcissa right now, by the way, and not buying her sudden turnaround. Even if she means it you can't jerk your kid around that way.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 19:57:49 UTC Re:

Yes. :)

She is once again posting on how she's trying so hard but of course Draco will have to tell her how to help him. Ugh.

If that wasn't the weakest excuse she could make I don't know what is.
(And don't even get me started on Lucius.)

conversant @ April 26 2003, 19:15:43 UTC

Pansy sums it all up pretty well. Yes, and yet she also distorts the truth in the comparison she draws to a hypothetical case of boy/girl sexual harassment: If this were a situation where a boy had knowingly tried to kiss a girl who was made uncomfortable, I believe the girl would have been able to go to the proper disciplinarian and complain without being faulted. Draco's account, which we are safe in assuming is an account tailored to a) his perspective and b) his hurtful purposes, had Harry sleepy, passive, and rather incoherent when Draco asked him if he intended to kiss Draco. If this were a boy/girl case, this wouldn't amount to much in the way of sexual aggression; in a PS/J-H situation, it amounts to no credible affront.

And have we all forgotten that PS has had spent a good deal of time with J_H since the night of the debauched kiss? There hasn't seemed to be much hesitation or revulsion on PS's part in the golf clubbing episodes, so I hardly buy PS's or Pansy's account of how poor PS has kept a brave stiff upper lip for many weeks whilst all the while suffering emotional distress at the sexual predations of J_H.

No, no. Pansy is nothing more than an opportunist here... as always. She speaks enough truth to make the rest of her assertions seem logical, but she is a snake and a slippery one at that. (Indeed she is right when she asserts that J_H has a special status at Hogwarts, and it is also true that homosexuality is an issue in which certain professors have a vested interest. However, from those 'revelations' of injustice, she weaves a pretty but treacherous story of PS as victim of J_H's perverted desires.

I really can't wait until PS works his little drama through to the point where he feels no need of Ms. Parkinson. Then we'll see what song she sings.

moonlitpages @ April 26 2003, 19:21:07 UTC

My sentiments exactly. If PS had responded this way immediately following the incident, then perhaps I might be more inclined to believe the "Draco is a hapless victim of the sexual predator Potter" spin. However, all of his behaviors following the incident indicate that his disgust with it was rooted strongly in the fact that a part of him wanted it, too.

taradiane @ April 26 2003, 19:56:10 UTC

And have we all forgotten that PS has had spent a good deal of time with J_H since the night of the debauched kiss?

Well, we certainly haven't...but I'm wondering if Ron or Seamus or anyone else close to Harry has. I've been waiting for *someone* to mention it - and I thought it would be Seamus - but no one has brought it up. Feels like there's a huge chunk of the puzzle missing with us not knowing what truly prompted the outburst at this particular point in time. In the beginning, I was sure it was because of his father (his punishment ending last night and Lucius stating he was going to have a long talk with Draco), but that was blown out of the water by his father's eventual reply.

Either that or I missed it.

ex_meiko437 @ April 26 2003, 20:19:45 UTC

most excellent!! ::sends love:: I was going to post exactly what you were saying, too.

Everyone else forgets that not only did Draco wait an HOUR for Harry to show up in the Zabini hunt, but then he purposely went out to search for him. If Draco hates Harry as much as Pansy implies, Draco wouldn't have looked for him. Or waited. It's not in his personality to do so, or bravely keep this supposed stiff upper lip. He would have told Potter flat out that he wanted nothing to do with him, or have C+G do so. He waited an awfully long time.

It makes me wonder if something more happened that he isn't saying.. this was a really sudden outburst.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 19:20:29 UTC

Oh I don't know. Pansy strikes me as having a great future in the Ministry, though. This is classic, utterly cynical, politico-spin, beginning with that infamous weasel-word, "inappropriate," to describe Draco's behavior. She carefully marshalls valid and rhetorically effective criticisms of other people's behavior, deploys deceptive analogies and false equivalences for Draco's actions, but shows no comprehension whatsoever of the real horror of what Draco did. She reduces it to procedural issues, when it takes a certain moral imagination to be truly horrified by the kind of betrayal, viciousness, and self-destructive rejection of emotional openness that Draco was all about last night.

Pansy's is a view from inside a moral vacuum. Is there no one at Hogwarts who can help lead Draco out of it? If someone really cared about Draco, they would try to lead him to some kind of insight, and not engage in either cynical defense of him or posturing, self-regarding denunciations. Ron's cool, Remus is cool, M.B. probably, Mr. Weasley but not Mrs. Harry himself will probably join them at some point. Just about everyone else who's speaking up is posing for the cameras in one way or another, even the ones who are correct on the merits.

Which is what makes the game, and the characters, so amazingly interesting.

anamirza @ April 26 2003, 19:49:03 UTC

Pansy strikes me as having a great future in the Ministry, though.

Completely. Let's not forget that Pansy isn't acting any less out of self-interest here than anyone else. It's her house that lost all its points, and it's the validity of her relationship with Draco that some such as Millicent - and Seamus before Remus stopped him- were calling into question. Pansy does what is best for Pansy and seems to have Draco's best interest at heart even less than the other Slytherins. Also note: who is likely to get the Prefect badge for Slytherin now, I wonder? Will it just go unawarded?

I doubt this particular post has any more to do with benevolence and pure, reasoned argument than the Pansy posts about Sally-Anne Perks or Tracey Davis.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 20:07:52 UTC Re:

Hmmm. Interesting point about the prefect's badge. Although I think as Head of House, Snape thoroughly, thoroughly has Pansy's number.

anamirza @ April 26 2003, 20:45:38 UTC

Well, it certainly sounded like he had her number in their exchange of comments on Draco's journal. But I think underestimating Pansy would be a serious mistake. She's very Slytherin - ambitious, and what's worse, competent.

xnera @ April 26 2003, 22:36:20 UTC

who is likely to get the Prefect badge for Slytherin now, I wonder?

a_slytherin for Prefect! It's very insightful and wants to help its fellow students, which has got to be a good quality for a Prefect.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 19:55:05 UTC

Once again, I agree completely.

(And so as not to sound completely useless...)
Pansy is putting a spin on things. But everything she says is self-serving. She wants to be with PS -- she must show him she 'cares'. She wants house points back. etc.

I just hope he is in too much shock to listen to her talk and rationalize things for him. It may be easier right now, but if he believed her spin, it would be a huge set back.

Ron's cool, Remus is cool, M.B. probably, Mr. Weasley but not Mrs.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Mrs. Weasley isn't being cool.

Actually, I was rather shocked to see the howler. It's an amazing performance, and true to cannon, but in terms of it's impact... everyone else seems to have left last night in the yesterday, at least the screaming. And she is bringing it back, when all Harry likely wants is for this to blow over.

*sigh*
All the players are doing a magnificent job. I'm awed.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 20:12:30 UTC Re:

I would love to fully understand Pansy's game. She seems to be a sort of vampire, moving in on Draco at moments of emotional weakness and trying to make herself indispensable to him. Strong contrast here with M.B., who I think really cares for Draco and has his interests at heart, in her own way. I wonder how much Pansy's decision to sign on as Draco's "girlfriend" (at a moment when Draco was maximally upset about his parents' separation and his mother's neglect) made her an enabler for Draco's rejection of Harry.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 20:19:32 UTC

Pansy does seem to be preying on the situation. But then she's a Slytherin with all the implied ambition. I don't really see her not making the best of things for herself. However, I think she's letting her desires eclipse everything else. I am trying to figure out if she's really totally self-centered or if she's capable of something better.

I'm also interested in Pansy always saying that Lucius is 'just like his son'. Like you said, what's her game? She's seems to be trying to get Draco to believe everything his father says. Or maybe she's just mindful of her future in-laws. (she wishes)

M.B. is cool. I really do like her right now.

ex_meiko437 @ April 26 2003, 20:32:43 UTC

you're absolutely right on that one. I wonder if MB has Pansy's number now.. I wonder if Pansy's relationship with HER was real, as it seems there was one. Who Pansy is really using. She can't honestly love them both. There are so many unanswered questions!!

But i must disagree on Snape electing Pansy as the new Slytherin prefect. Snape will, most likely, disagree with Pansy's defense of Draco. Even before that, I'd think he'd notice M.B. insted of Pansy for the prefect position.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 20:29:31 UTC

Looks like Mr. Weasley isn't being cool anymore. At least not imho.
...and I can't figure his post out.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 20:39:27 UTC Re:

Hmm, you're right. Maybe Fred and George are on to something, though.

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 21:02:18 UTC

Arthur Weasley loves his family and hates the Malfoys. It's a biased opinion, but it's there. You know? Eh.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 21:15:19 UTC Re:

No I mean, it would be perfect if he linked to the post where his wife tells Ron how much she loves him. Both he and Mrs. Weasley are very much a healthy family unit.

But a howler to Draco Malfoy? I am going to allow that it's because he hates Malfoys, but my honest opinion is that he's too easy going and that he's real problem is with Mr. Malfoy not with Draco. I think he may dislike what Draco is all about, but Arthur Weasley seems like a man who'll attack the source of the problem, not it's symptoms.

(His wife though, has proven to be prone to irrationality when she sent that letter to Hermione in GoF.)

My humble opinion, of course.

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 19:53:57 UTC

Agree with everyone about Pansy's spin. The one point I think she does make that is true and ignored is that Colin's words about Draco's parents not caring about him were, I think, a form of outing and just as maliciously intended. Obviously Colin was not Draco's friend and Draco had done something vicious that Colin was reacting to. It's not a direct parallel but if you're going to hand out punishments for saying something particularly cruel, on that small score it's true. (No, I don't think Colin should have had points taken off for his post at all, just following the idea through.) I know it may seem like I'm blowing that up but to me that theme is of prime importance here. Not only did it cause Draco to go into hiding but it was brought up again right before this explosion. Objectively outing Harry is worse because we have some idea of what this means. The parent issue, though, is Draco's private hell that he clearly wanted to keep in the closet. To ps Harry probably did deserve this somehow, just as Draco deserved what he got from Colin in Colin's pov.

Frankly, I feel like nobody should even worry about the house points. Does Slytherin ever win anyway? Sorry, but I think if I was at that school I'd have my own personal rebellion about the silly points anyway. But that's me.:-)

Pansy's twisting of things on the harassment front is obviously part of her personal agenda and it's made me finally say something I've been wondering. Sallie-Anne Perks encouraged Draco to drop the mud and fake blood. Could Pansy have somehow encouraged this? (I know I'm not the first person to think of this but I can't remember who the other person was!) I can easily see Pansy as threatened by Draco's growing friendship with Harry. She, no doubt, knows that Draco is dizzy over the boy. I can easily imagine Pansy saying something as subtle as, "Well, you know. People are so stupid. It's like the way everybody's saying you and Harry are going out now..." This would freak Draco out and Pansy could then subtly get him to think he needed to drop Harry in a public way, sending out signals to anybody spreading rumors about them going out that he was straight.

Thoughts?

zorb @ April 26 2003, 20:05:38 UTC

The Colin point almost goes through, but Draco's said plenty of horrible things about the Weasleys before, and I'm fairly certain most, if not all, of them went unpunished.

And ooo, that would be Ever So Evil of Pansy! I totally wouldn't put it past her, though.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 20:12:24 UTC

As for Colin... I think the reason why he's gotten off is really that people think he's harmless. So he screams at PS a bit. So what? PS clearly needs to be brought down anyway, in their opinion. So when Colin posts stuff like this (which he later follows up with the whole 'your mother doesn't love you' thing) PS takes off points from him and Harry talks to him, and it seems like that ought to be enough to make him see reason.

But PS is not detered by losing points or being talked to. It's never going to work. Which is why I think everyone has jumped on the proverbial waggon to add their bit in when. Put up a united front, so to speak.

She, no doubt, knows that Draco is dizzy over the boy.

Heh, I love her bio.
"Bio: You want him - I can tell - but you can't have him."

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 20:31:07 UTC

I totally agree with both this and the above. There are many many differences between the Colin post and this one. Colin, for all his exasperating tendencies, is most of all clueless. His motives can't at all compare to ps's here, he doesn't have years of bad behavior behind him and he really is under control except for the occasional outburst. What this meltdown really showed, imo, is just how much darkness Draco really has in him. Colin doesn't have that and it shows. When he says something mean it's really by accident. That is, he really can't imagine feeling like your mother rejects you so why not tease someone else about it. Draco knows exactly how much pain he wants to cause. He's a dammaged human being and therefore that much more dangerous.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 20:38:31 UTC Re:

Yes!

That is, he really can't imagine feeling like your mother rejects you so why not tease someone else about it.

A very good point. He happens to hit the hot point (and maybe he even realizes it's a hot point, which I doubt) but it's nowhere near as calculated a damage as PS is levying.

fourscore @ April 26 2003, 20:00:04 UTC

I realize I'm in the minority here, but I agree with a lot of Pansy's points. I think as H/D shippers we're just assuming that Draco wanted to kiss Harry - in fact a lot of people have taken that as a given, which seems utterly ridiculous to me - but what if he didn't? How would you feel after hearing Ron say those things? I can guess it would be completely like claustrophobia. I think the posts and comments from Draco last night were probably the most honest insight we've been given from Draco. He thought Harry was just drunk - and, it's not really surprising that he would think that, if you think about it. His mother is, at heart, a drunk. Sure, she's not always drunk, but that's what she does. She drinks. I'd be willing to bet Draco knows an awful lot about how stupid people act when they're drunk.

So he thought Harry was drunk and decided to spin it because it would embarrass Harry. Whoops, looks like he was actually right. That doesn't make the intent of his post any less cruel. He intended to make everyone think Harry was gay, well and truly, or he wouldn't have posted the details of what happened after Sirius's party. Which is why I believe the details were absolutely true - he knew Harry wouldn't be able to contradict them if in fact he decided to say that he wasn't gay. Harry would have had no argument, and Draco woudl have succeeded in humiliating him.

So that night happens, Draco stops speaking to Harry because he's horrified (and I don't think this had anything whatsoever to do with wanting to kiss him at all as most assume), then he gets lost in London and guess who shows up to get him. I'm sure he had no choice in talking to Harry then, but hanging out with him afterwards? I doubt Draco himself knows. I bet the whole idea of just being friends with Harry Potter made him very uneasy. I don't get the impression that Draco had anything about kissing Harry on his mind at all, but for Draco Malfoy, being friends with Harry Potter platonically is a huge freaking deal.

Then he snaps. Why? I agree with the general consensus that it didn't have to do with only Harry. I think Narcissa was a huge, huge factor in this, and from what Pansy posted we know Draco was furious. And why shouldn't he be upset? His parents aren't in the same house anymore, and that's what he's based his life on. His father is threatening to disown him. Then his mother starts loving Harry, of all people.

And I think it was obvious that Draco was angry about her and Harry well before she sent Harry a package. But I noticed he never took it out on Harry before then. That says to me that he was either trying to deal with it, or knew he could fuck up what little friendship he might have had with Harry. And then Colin mocking him, Colin the same person who said his mother didn't love him, may have just been the last straw.

Getting back to my original point, I agree with Pansy. Draco has pretty much lost everything because of this, and I think that's way too severe. What does he have left? Not his father, not his mother. Pansy.

Funny thing, though - shouldn't Pansy be living it up that she's the only thing he has left? Would she be concerned about Draco's punishments if she was thinking only of herself? Yes, she has the house points, but the rest of it isn't much of a concern to her and actually makes things better for her because now she really does have Draco all to herself.

anamirza @ April 26 2003, 20:21:22 UTC

I think the only point of Pansy's I agree with is that certain of the punishments are not likely to do any good. That is very true. PS doesn't seem to have learned anything from his previous detentions; what more will accomplish is not clear.

On the other hand, losing house points and the prefect badge: well, he did ask for it. That other people speed, is not an excuse if you get caught speeding and ticketed.

shouldn't Pansy be living it up that she's the only thing he has left?

And why isn't she? Is it maybe because she had something to do with that post? Is this a post like the "despite all my help and advice, Tracey's date didn't seem to go well" posts? (Or am I in Ernie-land with this theory? It isn't one for which I have any evidence, I freely admit. It just seems to... follow a certain pattern.)

It could also be that she's worried about Draco - but something in the post rings a bit false for me. Maybe it's her attempt to keep up the "victim Draco" part of the story- from which she benefits so tremendously- or maybe it's the comparison with Colin, when Colin was smacked down pretty effectively by members of his own house, and Draco was certainly in a position to be able to argue with Colin. Note the lack of J_H in the comments of Draco's post. Also note that it isn't exactly in Pansy's self-interest right now to further Draco's awareness of his sexuality - of which she and Millicent both seem aware, whether he is or not.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 20:23:54 UTC

It's easy to forget, though, that Draco did much more last night than out Harry. He made some really, really ugly comments about Sirius, he aligned himself with Dean's hateful parents, he threw ugly stereotypes at Cho and at Fred, he was nasty to Vector, he made insinuations that hurt Susan Bones . . . it's really an amazing list of hateful behavior. And he just sustained this whole tone of abuse and defiance, at least until Ron took him on and partly even then.

He was out of control. He was incredibly destructive. He needed a brutal shock. It's not in anyone's interest, even his own, for him to remain in his bubble of delusion and self justification.

As usual, M.B. has a really, really interesting comment on this somewhere. Boot, I think, asks her if she needs help beating PS up. Her reply is that it "depends on whether he brings me a present." Sounds superficial, but I think it's right on target -- the key here is whether Draco is going to start acknowledging how he's wronged other people, acknowledging his need for them. That's more important at this point than strict justice.

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 20:30:03 UTC

Sounds superficial, but I think it's right on target -- the key here is whether Draco is going to start acknowledging how he's wronged other people, acknowledging his need for them.

That is so utterly insightful, it really brings things into a whole new light for me.

Truly makes me adore M.B. all the more now. An awakening for PS.

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 20:52:58 UTC

I loved that. It's so important on so many levels. Not only, as you say, is Millicent saying Draco better come back with a "present" but--and this is even more important--she talks about his coming back. She hasn't cut him off or threatened to in the least. This is the equivalent of Ron, in a way. Only the Slytherin way. Just as with Ron she and Draco can fight and be angry without the friendship being over. Her general attitude was so refreshing amidst all the hysterics. The facts to her are that Harry is gay and Draco is an idiot. These things are definitely able to be dealt with. I know it seems like M.B. puts up with a lot in the situation but she must get something out of it. She's a busy woman. She's not going to spend time with somebody who hurts her.

I also loved the way she was able to slip in her comment about Harry and Draco being perfect for each other with their need to be in the center of dramas. We say Harry really doesn't but he still always ends up in the center anyway and this is no exception. His withdrawal into Gryffindor Tower to be surrounded by friends firing off angry defenses...well, that's Harry Potter King of Gryffindor, isn't it. This morning the whole school needs to know exactly how he's taking it: did he eat his whole egg? Oooh, he's reading Quidditch magazines. He won at Chess--everything is right with the world! Ron's thrilled to be passing out the info: Don't worry guys. Harry's okay. I'll keep you posted.

I realize that Harry is not orchestrating this a la ps. But still, this is who he is. Deleting his lj is more dramatic than anything even ps has pulled off. For the second time he's mysteriously withdrawn so that there are posts all over from people wondering where he is and asking if he's alright. I can understand M.B.'s amusement as she looks at things with her cynical eye and says: So everybody knows you don't like breasts. Only you and Draco would make that into such a drama.

Also, I keep forgetting to say this: I adore Justin. Hufflepuff is so Hufflepuff in this rpg I love it. His post, along with M.B.'s were a welcome reminder that there are other students in the school and this isn't the end of everything. Except for maybe Draco--he really does seem to be facing some kind of death.

Just as Parvati predicted.

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 21:09:34 UTC Re:

*dies* You are so right about Millicent. And you and Millicent are so right about Harry. I mean, it's not really clear that he's withdrawing because he's devastated, he may just be withdrawing because he hates the spotlight. And yet it has the paradoxical effect of drawing even more attention to him.

And you're right about his band of supporters, who are probably way more out front than he'd want them to be. The only indication we have of his attitude is that he restrained Ron from killing Malfoy, which is a very Harry thing to do.

I'm less worried about Harry, on reflection, than I was last night. He's been humiliated, but he's awfully strong. And he's got some great friends. Lupin's a good indicator too -- rather than baby him, he's just told him he loves him and he hopes he'll see him in class tomorrow. Life goes on.

And you make an interesting point that Draco must be worth salvaging if Millicent cares about him. Also, of course, if Harry saw something in him to care about. It will be absolutely fascinating to see who, if anyone, begins to get through to Draco, and what changes happen as a result. Will he have the insight to push away Pansy-the-enabler and turn to M.B.?

I think as time goes by, Millicent's perspective is going to look even better, and almost everybody else is going to look like a drama queen. Even scotchtartan admits that she lost it a bit, and had to spend "11 minutes" calming herself down.

And I can't help laughing as I think how Harry must be taking M.B.'s observation that he and Draco are perfect for each other. Harry, if anyone, has the self-knowledge to appreciate this.

I wonder what she's up to with Boot?

anamirza @ April 26 2003, 21:17:43 UTC

I wonder what she's up to with Boot?

Seeing if it bothers Pansy? I mean, if my hypothetical girlfriend suddenly acquired a public boyfriend and was talking of marriage, I don't think I'd be any too pleased.

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 21:51:19 UTC

With recent revelations (which I kind of like actually, because the few wrong turns I'd started to make the further we got away from the posting frankly weren't as interesting as just seeing this as exactly what it was from ps) my question becomes exactly why is Draco so homophobic? To the point of actually throwing up? That's...that's a violent reaction.

This kid has serious sexual issues, here. I wonder if there's some twisted thing going on with him. I mean...he's now almost morbidly afraid of contact. He's forced himself to have dates that have ended almost violently. He clearly didn't want to touch anybody at all and it showed--claiming he wouldn't want oral sex because it was by a lake, feeling up Padma in a way that seems he's forcing himself to do it and so being rough. M.B. mentioned he couldn't get to second base--she doubted his ability. (Now I'm even thinking of him with Aja: "Anybody sitting on anybody's lap is disgusting!") Then he seems incredibly clueless about sex. It really didn't seem to occur to him that Harry was serious that night--which isn't unbelieveable as it really is a joke somebody would make when drunk. But still it stuck in his mind enough that he imagined debauchery at the party. We've always said it was denial but...maybe it's more than that?

We know Lucius has always made purity a big issue. So I can imagine that Draco could have been raised to be exceedingly fastidious, punished for a hair out of place etc. That we now know Narcissa probably didn't touch him a lot as a child could also give him a reason to just be difficult that way. But where this spewage about dykes and queers and diseases and contagion? I mean, it obviously didn't come from Lucius this time. It's possible that Draco could have just extended Lucius' usual bigotry to homosexuals but this seems to be way to specific for that. Draco seems to associate the anti-gay idea with Narcissa, but even there she doesn't seem to have ever said this kind of thing, just said they "didn't exist" as far as she was concerned. So it could be a reaction to something unrelated in his upbringing, but it sounds like this is a personal issue of Draco's that he's kept very hidden until now.

So where did this come from? It seems more than just ps picking things he thinks will be hot buttons. The idea makes him physically ill. He really doesn't want to go near Harry now--Harry who he has been chasing for years. Who he genuinely seems to like, when he's not hating his guts for being with Narcissa. The only time I imagine him really liking contact seems to be when he was sharing a bed with M.B. and Pansy--two girls in a platonic, safe situation.

I have no real theory for this but...I almost hate to say it because it's I don't want to throw out soap opera-y sob stories or anything like that. But to have this kind of reaction I feel like there's got to be some reason. It seems like there's maybe a bad experience here at the heart of this. I have no idea what it is. I'm not meaning to jump to any conclusions about rape or molestation or whatever. It doesn't need to be that.

It's just that this is a very strong choice for the character. Being homophobic does not usually mean you throw up at the idea of another guy wanting to kiss you a month ago. People may say it makes them sick but the thought doesn't seem to usually do that. What about it would make Draco sick--Draco who seems so oblivious to his father's flirting with Sirius that he seemed to be like Narcissa in saying it didn't exist?

I may regret throwing that out there but...so much turmoil here about this subject for months now. We've been assuming that his relationship with Harry has prompted the dating but perhaps the dating forced by his parents is what brought up a lot of issues??

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 22:56:35 UTC

You do such fascinating analyses of what might be going on inside Draco's head. I think you're on to something here -- there's definitely a pattern of revulsion from physical contact. There's that comment to Ron: "Do you kiss your friends? If so, I don't think I want any friends." There's his conspicuous lack of enthuisasm about backrubs from Pansy: "I'll leave a note on your dresser."

It's hard to speculate on where it comes from, but interesting anyway. I think you make an important point about how Narcissa never touched him -- she admits in one post that she didn't know how to deal with children, was frightened of her responsibility, and left him largely to the servants. I doubt Lucius was very touchy-feely, either. So he grows up starved for physical contact, a little wierd about it, maybe inclined to sexualize it and be frightened by that.

He also has to see sex as something very disruptive -- even if it isn't about abuse (which it may well be) he has to be aware of his father's affairs, apparently with Snape and Sirius, and Narcissa seems to have something in the past (and perhaps the present! see latest post) with Remus. And Sirius and Remus are so brazen about their extracurricular romance, and now his mother is explicitly mixed up with them . . . . There's something very childish and sad about the way he wishes his mother would just go home to the manor and be "normal," even though he knows what a horror the Manor is. So sex is all about betrayal and not taking love seriously and letting people down, etc. etc.

Really, really interesting speculation about how we may have the causality backwards on the dating business. I may have missed some of this by tuning in late to NA, but if I recall, his mother is urging him to do his duty and not let the family down, and I can only guess what Lucius may be saying to him. So this forces him to confront all these unresolved issues about sex, and sends him off the deep end . . .

Don't have any conclusions, but its great to draw this pattern out, and to keep it in mind as more evidence accumulates.

sistermagpie @ April 27 2003, 08:07:31 UTC

Thanks! You're points about the Malfoys sexuality are great too. He does seem to want to just keep it out of everything.

Since we get so little of characters I am inclined to take every single thing they post as being really important and chosen carefully. It's always possible that I give the wrong things weight or interpret them the wrong way. I've always assumed Draco was in denial about being gay--and I think he still is--but if he has such an intense physical reaction to the idea of Harry wanting to kiss him I can't really reconcile it with just anxiety about his own sexuality. Because...where's the disturbing positive physical reaction if you really are so revolted you throw up? It just seems like there's a bigger problem to get through before he even comes to terms with his sexuality. That would explain why he's so painfully clueless about it. He's so repulsed by being touched the desire to touch someone else isn't yet an issue.

Colin and the Hufflepuffs are your more run of the mill homophobes, it seems to me--and they're great for that. They act more on ignorance. Ernie and Justin both also assume Harry would be trying to touch them or had touched them "without their knowing." Colin is more worried that liking Harry will make everybody think he's gay. Those reactions are hurtful too, but I think everybody agrees that they're not as vicious as Draco's. As someone outside the situation I can sort of laugh at the stupidity of Colin and the Hufflepuffs. There's nothing to laugh about with Draco. He wants to hurt Harry and he seems personally terrified. If he was abused in some way it would certainly make Ron's announcement that Harry chose him over anyone ominous indeed. While I don't consider Pansy the most reliable narrator, she is Draco's friend andshe did have that interpretation of Ron's words while nobody else that I know of (including me) did. I hadn't even thought of it that way, but maybe that's because I don't see sexual attraction as a threat and Draco does. Pansy and M.B. do, after all, know ps more than anyone else, including us, does.

The other thing that keeps sticking in my mind is how Lucius and Narcissa's are now both stressing how little they know about Draco's upbringing. Narcissa says she left him with others, Lucius says he rarely saw his father growing up unless it was for punishment and seems to have done this with Draco. Both of them may have had random love people in the house for their own affairs. Narcissa even said something like, "A lot of people had a hand in Draco's upbringing." But neither of them seem to have any clear idea of who these people were. Perhaps one of them was just a homophobe that gave him these ideas, but up till now it's seemed like Draco only considered his parents' views important. Why would he spout homophobic jargon more passionately than his father's beloved blood purity issues? None of this really makes a positive case for anything happening to Draco, but it does confirm that he would have been a prime target for a predator should one have tried: isolated, unwatched, neglected, craving attention and possessed of a rather amazing ability to pretend bad things aren't happening to keep his family running smoothly.

black_dog @ April 27 2003, 10:07:10 UTC Re:

I've always assumed Draco was in denial about being gay

I wonder if it's even possible for Draco to be gay, in the sense that Harry is gay. I mean, I suspect his sexuality isn't organized or coherent enough for its predominant element to be labelled. Might be fairer to say that Draco has occasional urges toward guys that he doesn't know how to integrate or make sense of.

where's the disturbing positive physical reaction if you really are so revolted you throw up?

OK, with some trepidation here I find myself embarking on an essay on vomit. The thing is, we're assuming nausea is a marker for revulsion. But it could, equally, be a marker for extreme anxiety and panic and stress. That can make you vomit, too. So I don't think it proves he's disgusted by physical contact; I think it's consistent with the idea that he's terrified of it. And also that he is overwhelmed by how he feels when he thinks that he may have had a chance for a sexual relationship with Potter. It's all hypothetical, yes, but it's worth not ruling anything out over a too-narrow interpretation of Draco's nausea.

He wants to hurt Harry and he seems personally terrified.

I like your distinction between the run-of-the-mill homophobia of the Hufflepuffs and the more vicious things Draco was doing. The thing that puzzles me about Draco's initial message -- and I've said this before but maybe haven't stressed it -- is that it seems mostly about breaking off with Harry, maybe even more than hurting him. The "queer" business seems almost an afterthought, at least in his very first post -- it's about repudiating all of the little gestures Harry has made, all the things they have done together, making it clear that he doesn't want to play anymore. Maybe I'm over-obsessing about the distinction, but there's a difference between hurting someone you care about because you want to provoke a reaction, and shutting them out because you find that being with them generates unbearable tension. I think Draco mainly intended the second thing, not the first. Could be wrong.

If he was abused in some way it would certainly make Ron's announcement that Harry chose him over anyone ominous indeed. While I don't consider Pansy the most reliable narrator, she is Draco's friend andshe did have that interpretation of Ron's words

Hmmm. Although I think your abuse theory is really interesting, I'm kind of chilled by this particular line of argument. I'll cross-reference a reply to Adrienne, here.

Pansy and M.B. do, after all, know ps more than anyone else

And M.B. despises the way Pansy is moving in on Draco's emotional vulnerability. Another reason to be wary of Pansy's take on anything, I think. And M.B. seems saner about sex than just about anyone. "I rattled me some bones . . . "

he would have been a prime target for a predator should one have tried: isolated, unwatched, neglected, craving attention and possessed of a rather amazing ability to pretend bad things aren't happening to keep his family running smoothly

This is a beautifully-put and chilling observation. Although I'm not sold on the abuse theory because I don't see compelling positive evidence for it, I think you've made the strongest possible circumstantial case that it may have happened, and it could provide a unified explanation for a lot of Draco's issues. Worth watching out for more evidence.

No peroration here -- sometimes discussion leads up to a conclusion, sometimes it's just fun to think through the evidence with you.

sistermagpie @ April 27 2003, 11:28:20 UTC

OK, with some trepidation here I find myself embarking on an essay on vomit. The thing is, we're assuming nausea is a marker for revulsion.

Very good point. I think the reason I'm being more concrete about this is because that's how I'm interpreting ps's player telling us that Draco is being "absolutely honest" in his reasons for throwing up. I took that to mean we should take this at face value. Of course, Draco being honest does not mean Draco is correct. I agree that denial is a big part of what's going on here and that Draco is clearly disgusted by things in himself and afraid of things in himself that he is frantically projecting onto Harry alone.


The "queer" business seems almost an afterthought, at least in his very first post -- it's about repudiating all of the little gestures Harry has made, all the things they have done together, making it clear that he doesn't want to play anymore.

Yes. Absolutely. When I was reading the post the first time it sounded strictly like Draco being mean and rejecting until that last line. I think Draco uses the word as a catchall insult, as many boys do. He doesn't think Harry is actually gay, so probably just thinks it's something he can call him. It is definitely a break that is not demanding any response to Harry. We've seen ps provoke responses from Harry and this is not what he was doing. I still think, in fact, that his first post is a straight response to Narcissa's gift and his perception that Harry is stealing his mother. So he just tells him to fuck off without giving him a reason. References to that come out throughout the thread, particularly when he's talking to his mother.

Hmmm. Although I think your abuse theory is really interesting, I'm kind of chilled by this particular line of argument. I'll cross-reference a reply to Adrienne, here.

I think the argument about Pansy is valid only in so far as it describes Draco and not Harry. Harry clearly wasn't any kind of an aggressor and really Draco is not the person harping on that. He's just saying that now that he knows Harry is gay is wants even less to do with him. He didn't even accuse Harry of coming on to him to begin with, remember. He thought he was just a sloppy drunk. What I do think is honest about Pansy's argument, though, is that she is the person who is saying that yes, Draco is upset and throwing up over this. Pansy's interpretations of this, that ps is like a girl receiving unwanted attentions is totally false and self-serving, but I really had underestimated ps's distress until Pansy confirmed that he was truly sick.

And M.B. despises the way Pansy is moving in on Draco's emotional vulnerability. Another reason to be wary of Pansy's take on anything, I think. And M.B. seems saner about sex than just about anyone. "I rattled me some bones . . . "

Pansy, otoh, has a vested interest in keeping Draco on edge about everything: his father's rejection, his mother preferring Harry, Draco's upset over Harry. Pansy is the one who describes how painfully Narcissa's owl soared over the Slytherin table (with everyone recognizing it and expecting it to be for Draco) and went straight to Harry. M.B., by contrast, diffuses everyone's distress and says hey, Draco's freaked out about homosexuality and Harry is gay. Next topic.

This is a beautifully-put and chilling observation. Although I'm not sold on the abuse theory because I don't see compelling positive evidence for it, I think you've made the strongest possible circumstantial case that it may have happened, and it could provide a unified explanation for a lot of Draco's issues. Worth watching out for more evidence.

Right--that's exactly how I feel about it now. It's not even a theory at this point because we haven't been given any actual evidence at all for this. Without that we can't talk about this as anything real. It's sort of exactly the opposite of the correct way to do it: you can come up with any theory and force the actions to fit it by explaining away things that don't fit and interpreting other things to support it. It's a possibility, but so are a million other things.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 21:31:46 UTC

I loved that. It's so important on so many levels. Not only, as you say, is Millicent saying Draco better come back with a "present" but--and this is even more important--she talks about his coming back.

She's also effectively putting a stop to Crabbe's idea to "pound Malfoy".

She also says "All is not lost." which I think at least to some extent applies to Malfoy. Maybe she means that he's not as lost a boy as some people think. Maybe she means for him to hear that not everything is lost, I don't know. I do think that Draco (once he's able) will understand her cryptic remarks. He seems to understand her very well before.

I also loved the way she was able to slip in her comment about Harry and Draco being perfect for each other with their need to be in the center of dramas.

*lol* I wonder what Harry thinks of that.

Also, I keep forgetting to say this: I adore Justin. Hufflepuff is so Hufflepuff in this rpg I love it.

*grins* Yeah, I loved how other people played out as well.
It seems NA players have decided to address a lot of various aspects of how people view homosexuality.
pinkstarsgirlie's posts were just so... ugh, this issue has been talked about. How sometimes slashers fail to see the humanity of the people involved. The people become sort of 'pets'. (a la her "wolfie", "doggie" comments).
finch_fletchley and erniemacmillan very being absolutely classic with the whole exchange: "He didn't touch you or anything?" "NO!!! Well, I mean, I don't think he did. What if he did, and I didn't know?"
Oh, I am so glad I was around yesterday to see the whole drama unfolding in stages.

adrienneherbst @ April 26 2003, 21:56:27 UTC

Ahhh you are so dead-on on everything in this post. *loves it*

anamirza @ April 26 2003, 20:10:37 UTC

Well, I think that's a little lesson in the real world for potterstinks, though. If you taunt people about a pushbutton topic of theirs, they react more strongly than if you are just a general jerk. And ps just would not let go and said some really, really awful things. It's one thing to make obnoxious comments to Millicent - hey, he might be joking - and another thing entirely to keep repeating that gayness is a disease you can catch and that Harry got it from his guardians. That in particular is a dangerous thing to say - it's what makes up a lot of our modern-day 'witch hunts' of gays.

And this is so, so different from the Colin situation, in both the motivation and in the way people reacted. Colin was sick of the abuse Draco has always heaped on him, and snapped when he had the chance to say something very hurtful. Draco was trying to hurt Harry in a calculated way, by humiliating him, by trying to tarnish his reputation. Colin was successful in that Draco was hurt, but he didn't have the sort of support from Gryffindor that he was expecting - Hermione tells him to just ignore Malfoy and Harry tells him to stop. Draco, on the other hand, manages to provoke a number of people, namely, Colin, Lavender, Ernie and Justin into making appalling and hurtful comments about Harry. He manages to hurt Harry and damage his reputation, I imagine even beyond his expectations.

The more I think about it, the more that original post by Draco has Pansy's input written all over it. It's Pansy, after all, who (as black_dog says above) is the mistress of spin. And that's the other thing Draco accomplishes here - he puts an interpretation on the events of Lupin's party before anyone else can use that information against him. Because one suspects that things did not fall out quite as PS describes, you know?

black_dog @ April 26 2003, 20:35:25 UTC

Yay! Another person who sees Pansy's fine Slytherin hand in this from the beginning. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced she's all about isolating PS emotionally so he has to rely on her.

Interesting point about PS' pre-emptive "interpretation" of Harry's actions. After all, how many homophobes go out of their way to ask an obviously drunk and disoriented person if he wants to kiss them?

anamirza @ April 26 2003, 20:56:17 UTC

Another person who sees Pansy's fine Slytherin hand in this from the beginning.

I am in awe of NA Pansy, honestly. She is amazingly cunning.

how many homophobes go out of their way to ask an obviously drunk and disoriented person if he wants to kiss them?

Well, I somehow pictured it as being said in a half-teasing, half-disgusted way, not necessarily at odds with homophobia. What seems odd to me is that his homophobia would take so long to manifest itself. Sorry, but nobility isn't a PS trait really - that he would nobly try to put up with this horrid experience and finally not be able to in a moment of stress... I'm just not buying it. It was a calculated post, meant to be hurtful to Harry, with the one weapon he had to hand. It just also had some ... unintended consequences, though.

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 20:37:39 UTC

Well. Pansy should definitely go into politics. I agree with those who have said this already.

I do not agree with Pansy. I think she is a shrewd opportunist, and I do not condone Draco's actions in any way. Draco has been pushing it for a long time, and if this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so be it. I am not complaining.

The Colin comparison has no relation to this situation because:

1) Narcissa's love for her son is something that only she can give or take from Draco, not Colin. On the other hand, Harry's choice of when to reveal his sexual orientation was taken away from him and cannot be returned. Nor can the hurt and humiliation from someone he considered to be a friend.

2) To give Draco some kind of excuse for his behavior based on him being put upon by Harry's kissing him is bogus because of the time between the incident and now. He got to know Harry. He spent time with him. Harry was kind to him, and I venture to say that Draco was probably pleasant enough to Harry. Then Draco went ahead and eviscerated him in front of the world, with no provocation on Harry's part. Harry has done nothing to warrant Draco's attack. He deserves it the least of anyone. IMO, Pansy is coming very close to blaming the victim here. Not quite, but it's a near thing.

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 21:27:01 UTC

To give Draco some kind of excuse for his behavior based on him being put upon by Harry's kissing him

Just wanted to point out we don't even know if a kiss happened. It might have since Draco has such a physical reaction after, but even according to Draco's biased account all we get is that Harry put his head on Draco's neck. Draco "inquired as to whether Potter was planning to kiss" him. And Listen closely, Hogwarts. He said, 'Yeah.'

Nothing is said of what happened after, except that he "left the scene" and "stopped him".

Agree with much of what you said. Draco's obviously got his troubles and issues, but...


No, I'm not fine with it, you stupid little queer. I don't appreciate being the victim of sexual depression. What if I hadn't stopped him? What if he'd been coherent enough to get his wand?

sheron @ April 26 2003, 21:36:28 UTC

Just wanted to point out we don't even know if a kiss happened. It might have since Draco has such a physical reaction after

He says he "had to make himself sick". He wasn't sick, but logically he realized that it didn't add up so he went and made himself sick.
I do wonder how much truth is in Draco's post. From his previous entries it's painfully obvious he likes to gloss over some very important parts.

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 21:50:51 UTC The non-kiss

You're absolutely right, they haven't kissed. I forgot.

No, I'm not fine with it, you stupid little queer. I don't appreciate being the victim of sexual depression. What if I hadn't stopped him? What if he'd been coherent enough to get his wand?

I do consider this a huge overreaction, though. I suppose I can see Draco may have feared that Harry would molest him if Draco has previously been the victim of sexual abuse (frightening flashback, etc.), but as it is I can't imagine anyone being sincerely afraid for their safety because Harry said "yeah," he'd like to kiss him. Plus he was drunk and probably wobbly on his feet. I can't see him honestly being afraid that J_H would go for his wand and tie him down or something.

Which gets me thinking...what was he really afraid of? Homophobia is based on fear; it seems rather insecure that such a small action on Harry's part would provoke such a reaction from PS if he was completely secure in his own sexuality. I don't think he is, obviously, but I'm just afraid I'm reading too much into it.

/incoherence :D

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 22:27:51 UTC Re: The non-kiss

Whup! I didn't mean that quote to imply that Draco had abuse in his past... although very interesting it turned your brain in that way...

See more thoughts on that here:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/nraged/93660.html?thread=1586908#t1586908

But I don't really see abuse as likely. I quoted it because it was *so* harsh. It's easy to forget how *hateful* PS's post was when just paraphraseing it. I mean, he calls Harry names and is practically asserting that Harry would have attempted sexual assault.

More likely to me as impetus:
1.Insecure in sexuality
2.Afraid
3.A big jerk

anamirza @ April 26 2003, 21:28:49 UTC

Harry has done nothing to warrant Draco's attack. He deserves it the least of anyone. IMO, Pansy is coming very close to blaming the victim here. Not quite, but it's a near thing.

I think that's an important point and what makes this so devastating. It's not just that Harry was outed involuntarily, but that he was betrayed (as it would seem to him) by someone he trusted and he liked, in spite of pressure from his House and his friends not to like and trust him. And that's what makes Pansy's post seem ... insincere or manipulative, I think. It's just nothing, nothing like Colin's, or even Ron's, loose-cannon tirades.

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 21:59:14 UTC

It's not just that Harry was outed involuntarily, but that he was betrayed (as it would seem to him) by someone he trusted and he liked, in spite of pressure from his House and his friends not to like and trust him. And that's what makes Pansy's post seem ... insincere or manipulative, I think. It's just nothing, nothing like Colin's, or even Ron's, loose-cannon tirades.

Yes, exactly. If someone Harry barely knew, like Hannah or Susan, had outed him it wouldn't have been so hurtful. The betrayal's at the heart of it, as it always is when someone you've opened yourself up to turns on you. Not to beat a dead horse, but PS's posts were just so vicious, I winced reading them and not only for J_H's sake. The cruelty was pretty astounding, really. Especially since J_H didn't appear to have done anything to deserve it. He was broadsided.

Pansy's post strikes me as very calculated. She chose her words well for her purpose.

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 22:37:05 UTC WORD

word. word. and word again.

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 22:09:53 UTC

I'm being totally anal here but:

1) Narcissa's love for her son is something that only she can give or take from Draco, not Colin. On the other hand, Harry's choice of when to reveal his sexual orientation was taken away from him and cannot be returned. Nor can the hurt and humiliation from someone he considered to be a friend. </i>

The second part, yes. That's the worst thing about what Draco did. But the first part I disagree. In both cases all that's happening is that someone is revealing personal information that isn't theirs to reveal. Just as Colin isn't responsible for giving or taking Narcissa's love, so Draco did not give or take Harry's sexuality. It's about having personal information publically revealed.

Beyond that though, I totally agree there's very little the same. Although I guess it's sadly ironic that apparently neither Colin nor ps realized they were scoring quite as much of a hit as they were. Colin because I just don't think he can imagine this being true for anyone really and Draco because he just missed the mark.

I don't know just what Pansy's up to now. Since we've been speculating so much on her being devious, maybe we should consider her intentions honorable. I know--Pansy/honorable...contradiction in terms? But maybe there's some real truth to the post that she's not revealing. Like, that she's making the point that Draco really was upset by this and that should be taken into account...?

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 22:23:56 UTC

In both cases all that's happening is that someone is revealing personal information that isn't theirs to reveal. Just as Colin isn't responsible for giving or taking Narcissa's love, so Draco did not give or take Harry's sexuality. It's about having personal information publically revealed.

I was stressing the information that was provided by both boys. I meant to say that the information Colin revealed was hearsay; Draco's info. was factual, and therefore more harmful because it can't be denied. Colin claimed that Draco's mother didn't love him, but this was something that can be discredited because what does Colin know? It stings, but Draco can still know that his mother loves him and certainly doesn't care more for Harry than Draco. It's reparable false information that was given. Draco claimed that Harry was gay, but this is true and can't be refuted without Harry lying. The irreparable, true information that Draco revealed can't be retrieved.

I do agree that the second part is what hurt the most, though.

Thus lies the difference. :p Hope I made sense. It is late and I am tuckered out.

sistermagpie @ April 26 2003, 22:34:14 UTC

Oh yes, definitely. They are totally different that way.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 23:01:28 UTC

It stings, but Draco can still know that his mother loves him and certainly doesn't care more for Harry than Draco.

Which I don't think he believes, actually.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 23:00:57 UTC

Honorable!Pansy? I would buy it if she didn't sound so oily and false in her posts.

sistermagpie @ April 27 2003, 08:25:37 UTC

I completely understand that attitude! The idea is a little hard for me to swallow myself.

This post in particular is even more oily and manipulative than usually, in fact. Still, any good liar knows to start with the truth somehow. Pansy has introduced the concept that Draco is upset by this and really doesn't want to have anything to do with Harry and that really does appear to be true. I, like most of the characters I think, hadn't really considered that at all. I figured Draco was just an ignorant homophobe who was being cruel to Harry (like the Hufflepuffs and Colin are in a less vicious way).

I know that several weeks past between the night of the party and Draco's nasty post, so Draco's not just reacting to it. But apparently his sick horror at the idea isn't a lie. He really did, it seems, get so terrified at what he thought was Harry's joke about wanting to kiss him that he ran from him and stuck his finger down his throat. WTF?? The true revelation that Harry really is gay and attracted to him just happened and his reaction to that was immediate--he started vomiting and pleaded with people to stop saying it.

Pansy's spinning, obviously, and she's not being fair to Harry in her post by calling him "the aggressor." But it's possible that there is a piece of emotional truth here as well (just like Draco's post contained a truth about Harry): that Draco isn't faking his horror and fear of Harry. Of course that's awful for Harry, but it's still an emotional reaction Draco can't control. I had assumed he was exaggerating his disgust to be cruel--I certainly didn't think he was serious when he said he was vomiting. I thought it was an expression. That it wasn't does make me think I need to rethink exactly what's going on here. That may be why it's always so important to consider all the characters' povs of certain things. Yes, the Slytherins are more difficult to read because what they say on the surface is never the same as what's underneath. But they are still capable of giving us information about things. As unreliable a source Pansy may be she's one of very few people who could even have information about Draco to spin!

adrienneherbst @ April 26 2003, 21:56:56 UTC

Blackdog, you totally hit it on the head-- as did lots of other people. *looks up in general agreement*

Like Blackdog said, Pansy is extremely misleading-- her comment about how everyone would be furious with Potter the Predator if Draco were a girl seems to make sense-- AND instills in the reader a sense of guilt because they've somehow been sexist in assuming that Draco can't have been molested because he's a boy-- unless you think too hard about it. Harry would be guilty of sexual harrassment, and Draco's upsetness possibly justified (had, of course, so much time not elapsed between the incident and the post) IF Draco had said no, and Harry continued to make advances on him. However, this /never/ happened-- so the molestation charge is complete bunk, although it makes a good sound byte, ESPECIALLY in Pansy's smooth, slick, spin-mistress style.

The Colin thing is also misleading, but it's also a brilliant tactic on Pansy's part-- everybody is all riled up about Atrocious Behavior, and she's not only trying to shift the blame to the feckless Colin, but also using this as a ploy to get everyone to feel sorry for Draco. Colin's yelling at Draco was inappropriate, yeah, but really /not/ that similar to Draco's outing of Harry (and everything else he did in that post)-- but it gets everyone to thinking, "poor Draco Malfoy; he has no friends and his parents don't care about him" rather than "that fucker, I am enraged" or whatnot.

She does have a few good points-- that the enormous screaming match of last night got out of hand, that a lot of the teachers overreacted in part due to their personal stakes in the matter-- but she's manipulating those points to make everyone-- what? Well, to advance her own position as Mature Rational Slytherin, but also, it seems, to take some of the heat from Draco. Why? Does she actually care about him, as she seemed to at the time of the whole Colin thing when she and MB were his friends? Speaking of which, why have she and MB split up? I'm not sure if I agree with the "Pansy is the master evilpuppeteer" idea, but there is definitely something up with that girl-- she's just lying way too much for there not to be something fishy going on, but I have no idea what it could be.

Another thing that I don't understand about Pansy is that she's adopted this persona-- a fake persona, imho-- of the reasonable, well-mannered, classy diplomat who sees the rational side of everything and tries to mediate between her often incendiary "boyfriend" and the rest of the school-- but EVERYONE knows that this persona is fake-- and what's the point of putting on a mask if everyone knows it's there? Somebody said that Pansy is both ambitious and competent-- she's certainly more competent than the other Slytherins, but her posts are so very obviously oily and fake, and I don't think anybody really takes anything she says without a hefty grain of salt anymore. None of the other kids really want to go up against her because she's clearly both toxic and good with words (except Hermione, I'd bet, and RON <3), but the teachers who have taken her on show every sign of "having her number". They all seem to see through her veneer: the less mature ones (Vector and probably Sirius, although I can't recall him ever interacting with Pansy) rise to the bait, but the more level-headed and authority-wielding ones like McGonagall see through her and don't really have much patience when dealing with her. Even Snape, the head of her own house, seems fed up with Pansy's dissembling and honeyed words-- he knows she's full of shit and is completely disgusted by it. *snrf* Yet, she still keeps up the pretense. Maybe she's like Mike Reed's Grunter-- the best tactic she has is to keep on trucking, because consistency will (besides infuriating her opponents [like, I suspect, Snape, who hasn't blown up at her yet but I think is beginning to despise her on principle], to which she can respond cool-headedly and gain an advantage) make her difficult to thwart. Anyway, there are advantages to keeping her image impeccable, but I really don't think she's fooling anyone.

...which makes me really, really wonder what the hell that girl is up to.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 22:56:33 UTC

Interesting thoughts on Pansy. I like the last paragraph especially. :)

black_dog @ April 27 2003, 04:07:25 UTC

You know, I think the ugliest thing Pansy has come up with is this line of argument about whether "Draco gets a say in being picked." This is like one of those "big lie" political slogans that turns the real issue completely on its head. It's such a complete inversion of the meaning of what Harry did, from any decent human perspective. It takes the offer of friendship, of emotional openness and risk on Harry's part, and makes it seem something selfish and aggressive; it takes Draco's failure and inability to make a human connection and recasts it as a matter of freedom and choice. One of the most important things in life is made to seem ugly; one of the cardinal types of failure in life is made to seem like a virtue.

It hardly should need saying, but of course Draco had a choice, of course Harry was anything but coercive in his approach to Draco. I mean, Harry went out of his way to apologize to Draco even for any percieved offense, to find a basis for connecting with him that showed his respect and regard for him. And as everyone has pointed out, Harry and Draco do seem to have chosen each other, tentatively, at least for a few days.

Her line of argument here is horrible. It's just a complete triumph of rhetoric over humanity. And of course, I mean that as a tribute to how brilliantly the character is being played.

sheron @ April 26 2003, 22:09:50 UTC

Don't know how appropriate this is to mention here, but I've noticed a couple of anonymous posters, and I have a couple lj keys left. Maybe you'd like one...? :)

Anonymous @ April 26 2003, 22:27:33 UTC *does a dance for a treat*

That's so nice of you to offer. :D I thought I didn't need one, but I think I'm missing out. I will be shameless and accept the generosity. :) :)

splitskirt22@yahoo.com

Thank you!

sheron @ April 26 2003, 22:55:28 UTC Re: *does a dance for a treat*

It's just easier to keep track of people that way.

slinkhard @ April 27 2003, 06:15:41 UTC

Oh Pansy's a spin doctor, no doubt, but that doesn't mean that part of what she said isn't right.
None of the houses have behaved particularly well following the revelation, everyone is 'posing for the cameras', mainly in an attempt to prove how right on and liberal they are, and some because it affects them on a personal level, they are behaving inappropriately and they're not helping.
They're making a fuss when clearly Harry and Draco, the central figures, don't want them to.
No matter how well meaning Howlers and detentions are, it's clear that Harry and Draco each want to be left alone. There's no point in threatening Draco, he hasn't 'got anything', he has few friends and uncaring parents, any punishment beyond what has been meted out will be ineffectual and serving the punisher rather than teaching him a lesson.
She also has a point in that if anyone else had said anything that offensive, they wouldn't have been punished so seriously.
Why is Crabbe angry anyway?
Sister Magpie, great points, especially re: potterstinks' sexual issues. I don't want to turn this into a bad fanfic, but the comment he made about the father figure being the one who probably influenced and molested Harry gave me chills.

sistermagpie @ April 27 2003, 10:13:19 UTC

Agree. Agree. Agree.

I suppose Crabbe could just be angry over the house points. He seems to only have really one solution to any problem and that's pounding somebody. But in the end he usually dismisses it. Love Crabbe.

I don't want to turn this into a bad fanfic, but the comment he made about the father figure being the one who probably influenced and molested Harry gave me chills.

LOL! That was exactly my fear: I don't want to turn this into bad fanfic but...

I do trust that if (and that's a big if) there is something like this involved (witn some unknown person or incident as the culprit) that ps's player and the game would play well enough to know that this one incident would not be the reason for everything in ps. It's not like it would be, "Oh, he got hurt as a kid. Well, now his dropping mud and fake blood on Muggleborns isn't mean at all." Not likely.

What's interesting about him to me, both here and in canon, is that he's not totally good or bad. Sometimes rotten people get hurt too. People who want ps to be just good are going to be uncomfortable with behavior that blows away that idea, like his recent behavior. Any thoughts that he was just a big softie ready for some H/D lovin' got rightfully torn in two by his vicious post. A lot of people even said they were a little sickened by it and I think part of the reason is that this is a character that we have sympathy for. We have seen things through his eyes so when he does this we do it. It's very different from, say, Colin. But also, I think people who want ps to be just bad are just as quick to look for a spin on any hurts he really does have. So you end up judging events based not not any objective morality but whether you like the character or not and that can be dangerous.

slinkhard @ April 29 2003, 15:16:06 UTC Re:

Ah, Crabbe and Goyle. They might be morons but I have an affection for them. I was especially touched in GoF when Draco is transfigured, and Crabbe immediately moves to pick him up.
I tend to be rather an apologist for Malfoy, in canon at least, because his feelings are rarely considered. The Trio can be forgiven since it's very hard to sympathise with someone who from your perspective is just a bully, but there are adults who could do something to reach out (cough cough Dumbledore! Snape!) or at least sympathise if not like. Since JK seems to wilfully ignore any consideration of the Slytherin's POV, I will go the other way and defend them even when they don't deserve. Likewise, Harry etc get whitewashed even when they are at fault (for instance, throwing mud and stones in PoA, which deserved or not, is a pretty cowardly thing to do when you know someone can't hit you back and you're invisible to boot!)
Harry is an extremely likeable character however, so in canon and fanon I tend to excuse either him or Draco most things, which evens out morality wise in the end, since they're on opposing sides usually.
*is bad person*