imochan @ May 11 2003, 22:29:48 UTC

wooo! :D

Smackdown!Harry can bear my children.

neveth @ May 11 2003, 22:38:10 UTC

That was draco who forwarded it. I wonder why.... Hmmm.

*gets her hopes up*

*always falls for the snarky ones*

Anonymous @ May 11 2003, 22:41:22 UTC

hmmmm... well harry did ask what it said.

neveth @ May 11 2003, 22:45:03 UTC

Er, it's more, Why is ps doing something (almost) nice for j_h?

imochan @ May 11 2003, 22:45:48 UTC

o_o;;

am so weirded out by this.

neveth @ Deleted Deleted

Deleted

imochan @ May 11 2003, 22:50:35 UTC

*explodes*

cannot cope. too much... what DO you call this, anyway?!

neveth @ May 11 2003, 22:52:50 UTC

I.. I'm not sure what to think. Draco's being POLITE to Harry, something unusual in and of itself, and NOT exploiting the situation, no, HELPING Harry to some degree. I am somewhat scared and confused.

NA is evil. They will raise our hopes then DASH them on the rocks. But... *hopes anyway*

neveth @ May 11 2003, 22:50:43 UTC

And what about this then? O.o ps is completely ignoring Pansy's attempt to bait him about Harry....

preview is your friend

nightflight @ May 11 2003, 22:58:13 UTC

Harry just added Malfoy's e-mail in the "To:" section, so it appears that we have a winner. XD

neveth @ May 11 2003, 23:02:16 UTC

But WHY?

Oh god, why aren't I sleeping, I have work tomorrow....

luleh @ May 11 2003, 23:02:54 UTC

Me too!

ARGH!

*refresh*

neveth @ May 11 2003, 23:09:35 UTC

You know, this is like how we reaccted when ps was 'fine'. He's.... OH! No! Down hopes! Down I say!

I'm not leaving till George trades me those ton tongue tofees for changing my post on Goyle's jokes

luleh @ May 11 2003, 23:12:18 UTC

Ok, theories?

This was a nice thing for Draco to do, so is a cigar just a cigar and Draco decided to be nice? Or is it some scheme between Draco and Lucius *tinfoil hat on*? Or did Draco forward it to torture Harry? Like, "It doesn't really tell you anything does it?"

Now, if I were Lucius, I wouldn't be too happy with my kid right about now. Draco screens the comments and then goes off and emails one to Harry and Harry posts it for everyone to see again. Draco could go back in and re-screen it, but Lucius would know that Draco sent it to Harry. Unless it's a scheme.....*tinfoil hat on again*

Anyhoo, to Harry, did Draco tell him NOT to mention where the comment came from? of course, it would be fairly obvious who it came from, I suppose. So did Harry decide to maybe get Draco in a teensy bit of trouble or did he just want to get at Lucius and wasn't even thinking of the potential repercussions for Draco?

Also, back to Draco, maybe he wants his father to know that he forwarded Harry the comments? Perhaps he has doubt in his mind due to the revelations of last night? Maybe he is disappointed that his father DIDN'T know why Lily and James were killed? Maybe he doubts his father's power and knowledge a bit now? Maybe he wants his father to know that? Is this a power play of sorts? Is he worried about what might happen to his mother wrt to adoption thing?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!!

*head explodes*

neveth @ May 11 2003, 23:23:57 UTC

*starts singing I've Got a Theory*
I am most confused, but I am going to bed.

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 00:03:40 UTC

Now, if I were Lucius, I wouldn't be too happy with my kid right about now.

No, I wouldn't either, and this is really fascinating, isn't it? Your hunch is obviously confirmed by the Draco-Lucius exchange here, and I love Draco's brazen hypocrisy and Lucius' frank warnings.

Actually, I suppose this could be a case where Draco's judgment is better than Lucius'. Lucius has given way to an urge to rattle Harry, but really it's suicidal for him to imply direct knowledge about the Potters' murder. Draco's post, and his sharing of info with Harry, would amount to protecting Lucius in spite of himself. But it seems like more than that, too.

I love your other speculations, especially that the powerplay may be a countermove to anything Lucius might do to Narcissa. I can't think of much to add to them. But perhaps one thing -- I think Draco realizes, after last night, that he is received ambiguously, not merely hated, by non-Slytherins at Hogwarts. Maybe he is genuinely interested in expanding his range of potential allies, and feels newly competent to do so.

Lucius' tactics also seem designed to ward off any Harry/Draco alliance. He reminds Draco that Harry has trust issues -- that comment may really be for Harry's eyes. It's classic Lucius, insinuation well-targeted to someone's insecurities, and it might be intended to undermine Harry's confidence in Draco's motives for sharing the email.

A complete consideration of Draco's motives would get into the enormous question of what he learned last night, and how that could have added to his confidence. It's just too early to be sure about anything. But I think it's fair to say that we are seeing some sort of deliberate game by Draco, and effective independence from his father, and it's going to be fascinating to see how it plays out.

moojja @ May 12 2003, 00:53:54 UTC

"He reminds Draco that Harry has trust issues"
Could that also be a warning to Harry? Don't trust Draco, b/c he is still my son. I agree with you in that Draco's action makes more sense. There is nothing in that post that will actually get Lucius into trouble. The same cannot be said for the 1st post (where Lucius say our Dark Lord and what an idiot Fudge is). I can't help but think that Draco now has blackmail material to use against his father. Although I can't see him actually using it.

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 01:42:35 UTC

Nice point -- by releasing the innocuous second post, he reminds Lucius that he could also release the much more incriminating first post.

You know, in a perverse way, I think Lucius might be proud of him.

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 07:13:58 UTC

I'm not sure what to make of it, but I love it! (And Harry is just giving me shivers--nobody messes with j_h when he decides not to be messed with!) I do wonder if this also (along with Sinestra's pairing of H/D for the assignement) is somewhat related to Sirius and Remus being away. I think Harry might feel free to act a little differently with them not around--they would, of course, have stepped into this argument had they been here. I think NA is possibly planning some interesting developments for when they get back. (Or maybe I'm completely wrong and they'll be watching everything and replying from their honeymoon, but it seems like a great opportunity to do it this way!) Harry's just so fab here I can't get over it!

There was discussion after Draco's questions about exactly why he asked about the Potters. To me it seemed like the real question he most wanted to ask. I think he was interested in a fun way about all the other things, but that the question about Lily and James was more of a secret wish of his that he knew would raise some eyebrows but he just had to ask. So why did he forward Lucius' post to Harry? It wouldn't be unlike Draco to, like Lucius seems to want to do, taunt Harry with the idea that he knows more than he does. I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd seen this as a great opportunity to side with Lucius against Harry. In fact he probably would have done that pre-lost weekend (can't think of what else to call his time in the theater, which I'm using as shorthand for the vague change there seems to be in him now).

Lucius obviously isn't pleased with Draco interfering at all...did Draco e-mail Harry at the same time as he made his comment or did he do it afterwards because he wasn't sure if Harry believed him? That's kind of what it seemed like. It's also interesting that he used his "something is awry" icon to tell Harry Lucius didn't know anything. There was nothing particularly awry about Harry's asking him what Lucius said, so I wonder if ps was getting suspicious of something else.

Draco--this is becoming a habit for him recently!--continues to make himself a player in the situation in ways I don't think he would have been able to do before. He positively rattles Lucius with his "I thought it best to answer" comment. He seems to be able to keep his cool much more because he's not as pathetically eager for Lucius' approval. This could have a number of reasons--Lucius' remark about only being able to disown Draco could certainly be one.

Most importantly (or maybe not, it just struck me as ominous) was Draco's last words to Lucius: "It's not as if you were there." It sounds like some kind of challenge doesn't it? Like forcefully saying, "Of course you COULDN'T have been there. That's ridiculous, isn't it?" The e-mailing of Harry is just...it's a major thing for ps to do. He could have let Lucius answer Harry or just repeated his assurance that Lucius didn't know on-group. But it was important enough to him to actually forward Harry the e-mail as proof. Lucius says he has Potter's trust but of course Draco doesn't have his trust (how could he??). If he had it he wouldn't have had to provide proof with the e-mail. Lucius' comment could have been a warning to Harry not to trust Draco, but also a snide remark on Draco even aspiring to such a thing. Hmmm...

moojja @ May 12 2003, 11:28:57 UTC

True, although I think Draco's last words can also be taken as a warning to Lucius. "Remember you were not suppose to there." sort of thing. B/c after that, Lucius approach to Harry changes. Now he is just agreeing w/anything Harry says, instead of arguing w/him. Though he is definitely warning Harry against trusting Draco though. Lucius has quite a lot to lose if H/D ever comes about. He is already afraid of losing his son due to his own coldness, but to his enemy? That has to hurt. Lucius might be watching Draco's action more closely again, and take action against H/D. (as oppose to before, where Lucius didn't think H/D could happen, so he didn't do anything)

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 11:41:16 UTC

You're right. Reading it over again it could totally be Draco stepping in to do the smart thing where Lucius didn't. In fact, I was about to think that was all it was, but then I had to wonder...if Draco's smart enough to know Lucius shouldn't blab about what he knows about the Potters, why did he ask him point blank to begin with? Maybe he didn't think about it until after he got an answer and then quickly screened the comment and tried to cover up his tracks. It's hard to say whether Draco therefore believes he was there or not. Lucius' comment could go either way, I guess.

Either way it's surprisingly competent for Draco to step in and shut Lucius up, especially when Lucius is in full badass Malfoy mode. Whatever the reason you get Draco privately e-mailing Harry what he wants to know. Since the e-mail wasn't incriminating, I'd almost have expected ps to not think it was so important, you know? Harry's last words to Lucius are also getting more crafty. Love that Harry's subtly reminding Lucius he can fight off the Imperius. Lucius' reply is sort of creepy as well, pretending to bow down to Harry as the Greatest Wizard Ever. But he ends it again by warning Harry about trusting the wrong people. Sirius? Or Draco?

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 12:48:54 UTC

Just caught today's further extension of the Harry-Lucius exchange. What's striking is how clueless Lucius is -- the way he utterly misses Harry's sarcasm, and his radically misplaced attempts to patronize Harry. Harry is basically calling Lucius an idiot to his face, and Lucius isn't getting it. This can't be impressing PS.

And my fears that Lucius may have inadvertantly fooled Harry, into thinking he wasn't involved at all, are a bit assuaged by Harry's coldness and ferocity -- loved his "Imperius" remark. I think the evidence is tending to show Lucius is an unworthy ally for Draco.

The warning about trust, I continue to think, is Lucius' feeble countermove to a possible Harry/Draco alliance. He'd like to disrupt it by persuading Harry to distrust Draco. But I think Harry can handle himself!

moojja @ May 12 2003, 13:29:04 UTC

I don't think either Harry or Lucius really mean what they say. Harry is trying to provoke Lucius by implying he is weak. And Lucius is rolling w/ the punch so to speak, agreeing w/Harry, therefore implying his innocence.

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 13:44:41 UTC Re:

Are you suggesting levels upon levels here, with Lucius playing the fool to conceal an even deeper cunning? I agree he's walking away from the confrontation, pretending to be innocent. That's one level. But there's a transparency, a crudity, to the way he does it that makes me wonder how clever Lucius really is.

I wasn't sure if Lucius was sophisticated enough to feign a lack of sophistication, to deliberately, calculatedly play the overreaching fool, so that Harry feels overconfidence in his own cleverness. That would be a deeper level of play. But maybe Lucius' comments about Harry's naivete and innocence are a sly acknowledgment of Harry's sophisticaion, and of his own deceit. Talk about a hall of mirrors . . .

moojja @ May 12 2003, 14:12:14 UTC

I am kind of suggesting that. Lucius is sophisticated enough not to get caught, even though it does seem common knowledge that he is a deatheater. I think he is playing the fool, although I doubt Harry believes him, and Lucius knows it. Yeah, Hall of mirrors.

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 20:44:44 UTC

That's the way I read Lucius' comments. Harry saying it's too bad some people can't fight off imperius has a double meaning. One, it relates to Lucius having claimed to have been under imperius when he was a DE (something ps recently referenced in his AK essay). Two, it relates to Lucius knowing that Harry can fight it off as Lucius saw him do it with Voldemort. That Lucius is SO fawning and says "only Harry" can fight it off and so he's a credit to the WW and his father was, I thought, completely smarmy and calculating. He's probably playing the same part that kept him out of Azkaban.

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 17:57:04 UTC

Multiple nested subthreads between the same people -- a sure sign that our feet have left the ground! But I had a further thought I wanted to bounce off you.

I think one of the more interesting questions that's emerging has to do with Draco's exact feelings for Lucius at the moment. Is he being protective of his father, who's stupidly put himself at risk, or is he firing a warning shot in his own battle? There's some interesting evidence for a continuing Draco/Lucius alliance, but I think their replies to Harry are suggestively out-of-sync in a way that refutes any conspiracy theory.

Draco's first comment to Harry is a slight misrepresentation -- he says Lucius said he doesn't know anything. But at this point, Lucius is still publicly playing the insinuation game, telling Harry "your parents knew too much," which belies Draco's first defense.

So Draco shares the email, and Harry -- perhaps fortunately, perhaps due to a gloss from Draco that hasn't been revealed -- picks up on the subtext, which is that Lucius is "only pretending" to know what happened. Close enough to Draco's original remark, but a little awkward.

When Draco and Lucius begin arguing on Lucius' thread, Draco is acting as if only his first comment, not the email, has been made public. When Lucius tells Draco he doesn't believe him, Draco shifts tone -- evidently he's discovered that Harry has published the email -- and defends the release in Lucius' interest. Only then does Lucius get with Draco's program.

This doesn't feel at all like any of the alliances we're speculating about are fully realized. There's some very human and even charming bumbling happening here. But that in itself is interesting -- Draco is maneuvering flexibly, taking risks, making allowances for other people's miscues. I suspect his final strategy is still unformed. But he's definitely interested in seeing how far he can trust Harry, and he's definitely interested in asserting independence -- though perhaps continued general loyalty -- to his father.

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 12:29:50 UTC Re:

Oh I think you comment is just definitive, as usual, on a bunch of issues -- Draco's new sense of power, his decreased dependency on Lucius' approval, his powerplay with Lucius, his curiosity about his father's real nature.

So I'll just reply by raising some new tangents.

First -- Draco's questions. As a faithful reader of John LeCarre I must keep in mind the intelligence value of finding out what your opponent badly wants to know! And I think the questions are very revealing. Yes, a few of them are thrown in for malice, or cover, but I think more of them than just the Lucius question go to the heart of Draco's issues. His questions to the Weasleys in particular -- you can see him sitting there, wondering, How do normal people like Ron know they're in love? Do normal people like Ginny ever prefer one member of the family to another? Do people as happy as George ever cry? Can good people (like Hermione) still be vain and arrogant? How is real commitment possible for flawed people like Sirius and Remus? All of this is something to mine further on a separate thread, maybe, but it's all part of context where he's switching his center from blissful identification with his parents to practical engagement with a world that he still needs to figure out, emotionally. He's taking issues of love and loyalty and character seriously, and is trying to learn how they work in the real world.

Second -- your comment about Draco's final remark to Lucius. It definitely sounds like a challenge, especially since Lucius left it standing without a reply. There's an ambiguity here that we don't have enough evidence to resolve -- it's possible that Lucius is a poseur and a fool who's been exposed as out-of-the-loop, but it's also possible that Lucius really is culpable in the murders, and has gotten away clean due to Draco's intervention and Harry's misdirected attack. I wonder if there will be further revelations here, and if they will destroy Draco's loyalty to his father completely.

Well, as you say, "I'm not sure what to make of it, but I love it!" And I can only also echo you on the promising possibilities of Harry left alone in charge of Dogear Wryde, and Sinistra's pairing of Harry and Draco in Astronomy. Much good stuff to come!

moojja @ May 12 2003, 14:27:15 UTC

I don't think Draco can make a break from his father. I mean his post to his father is as respectful as it was before, and it seems warmer to me. I wonder if there is anything Lucius can do that will make Draco not love him. Even after he disowned him, Draco is still making excuses for him. As for the questions, I think you're right, but I also think he is only asking to embarrass everyone. He wants to expose all the perceived flaws and weakness.

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 21:38:57 UTC

So happy I'm not the only LeCarre fan! LOL!

I'm torn on the other questions ps asks. On one hand they do definitely point to the difference between ps and other people--he is above all of these kinds of emotions so can use them against other people. But otoh they are also calculated to cause trouble between people...people he probably hates to see happy:

Making Ron say what he likes about Hermione embarasses Ron, asking him what he doesn't like embarasses Hermione. (First can embarrass Hermione too--note the breasts posts!)

Draco knows Hermione thinks she's better than most students and wants other students to resent her for it. Draco himself is hated because he claims to be superior and instinctively wants to show that Hermione, the one who most criticizes him for it, is just like him. Hermione responds that she "doesn't think of things that way" but he quickly gets her to admit he's right by using her own special word, "clever."

He zooms in on Ginny as the beloved only-girl and tries to get her to hurt her brother's feelings and turn them against each other. The he uses that against her parents. (Funny, isn't it, that both Mrs. Weasley and Narcissa wanted a girl and got Ron and Draco?). It does say a lot about Draco's personality that he thinks to ask the question about the parents, since his own parents are known to use him as a tool in fights with each other.

With Lupin he's probably hoping he'll say he isn't really ready to trust Black--he saw how Sirius feels insecure about this after Sinestra's party.

Sirius I think is more purely for cover. I don't think he wants to get too personal with Sirius, though this question does offer an opportunity for Sirius to reveal past darkness in his life.

The Neville question certainly shows he's been following Lavender's troubles. Seems like a mean comment to Lavender--obviously he doesn't need to ask which one weighs more, but this tells Lavender he's not sure.

Fred and George have always been ones to jump on ps whatever the situation so that's a good reason to question them. Since they're always coming across as tough guys it might please him to have them say they cry.

Sinestra sounds like pure curiosity. She doesn't see to like anyone.:-)

Now, this actually doesn't refute your point about what ps wants to know. Most of his questions go straight to the heart of caring relationships he sees: H/R, N/L, S/L, The Weasleys. I think that does show ps is preoccupied with how these people have these relationships that he doesn't. Are they strong enough to take these truths? His questions to his father were an addendum, but are special because they're facts he wants to know that have been denied him.

I go back and forth on how to take his comments to Lucius. On one hand Draco has always been very protective of Lucius--even in his essay he was reminding everyone how Lucius was cruelly under imperius under Voldemort. But that little exchange with the "I don't believe you" and "I don't know what you mean, Father," is totally tense and shows Draco's doing something totally unexpected and sticking to it and Lucius eventually backs down.

ps's questions prove that he knows very little about his father's doings. So his sending the e-mail doesn't seem like it comes out of ps trying to hide certain information so much as get Harry to stop asking questions, period. I'm not sure why ps would want that, though. Is he afraid of what he might find out? Trying to keep Lucius away from Harry in general (for whatever reason)? I don't know!

luleh @ May 12 2003, 15:42:01 UTC

I wish I had internet at work!

*wails!*

I have to toally agree about some sort of move for independence from Lucius on the part of Draco. I really now think the forwarding of the email had much more to do with that and Narcissa than Harry. I wrote up a bunch of ramblings along that line at work today and posted them here.

black_dog @ May 12 2003, 17:57:45 UTC Re:

Very cool post about evidence that Draco's overture to Harry is an anti-Lucius move, and positioning himself to protect his mother. I hope everybody CLICKS YOUR LINK above.

Don't miss competing speculations about redeemed!draco on dancingrain's NrAged post either.

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 21:03:49 UTC

I clicked and was greatly rewarded! I agree on one part and wibble on another. I do think that Draco's forwarding of the e-mail was more family-centric than H/D-centric. But I admit I'm very leery of Draco's faux-redemption (since I agree redemption's a little strong here!) coming from his finding out his own blood is "tainted." Just because that seems so convenient, you know? One of the things about his character has always been that he IS pureblood--although he believes that word means more than it really does (that he's superior to non-purebloods). To take that away from him seems like, I don't know, hitting the reset button.

But then, the situation could just make him consider the possibility so that even if it turns out he doesn't have any Muggle grandparents the thinking process is still in motion--it seems like you're definitely allowing for that possibility too. But I definitely think ps is working on something on his own now. He's not just reacting to Harry or pursuing Harry. He's, like, in some kind of larva stage now, changing himself. JMO.

luleh @ May 12 2003, 21:16:41 UTC

I agree on one part and wibble on another. I do think that Draco's forwarding of the e-mail was more family-centric than H/D-centric. But I admit I'm very leery of Draco's faux-redemption (since I agree redemption's a little strong here!) coming from his finding out his own blood is "tainted." Just because that seems so convenient, you know?

Hmmmmmm....

I see your point. *thinks some more* Though I didn't necesarily mean pureblood in relation to Draco, or I didn't intend to say that, I meant it in relation to Narcissa. As she surely is as pureblooded as Draco, in the sense of the word.

I do remember you making the good point that you couldn't see a pureblood family adopting a non-pureblood child.

I personally think it would be fabulous if it turns out that Narcissa DID come from a purebloood family yet Draco's mindset starts to change anyway.

He's not just reacting to Harry or pursuing Harry. He's, like, in some kind of larva stage now, changing himself. JMO.

Yah! As evidenced, IMO, by his attempt to drop astronomy. I really think any sort of friendly interaction with Harry is far from his mind right now.

Of course, we don't know what happened on friday night...

darcourt @ May 12 2003, 17:19:07 UTC

Is he worried about what might happen to his mother wrt to adoption thing?

I'm kinda wondering what would happen to both of them -- Narcissa and Draco -- if Narcissa's parentage was proved to be below Lucius's standards. Would Lucius want an heir with... corrupted, for lack of a better word, bloodlines? That was really the thought that hit me first when I read his reply to Narcissa. "I could only disown Draco if it came to that."

luleh @ May 12 2003, 17:28:23 UTC

Mmmmm, excellent point. Perhaps Draco is more worried about his own hide than his mother's?

Or he could be worried about both of their hides.

I definitely think Draco loves his mother, there is more emotion involved in their interactions. Even when he was asking her questions under truth serum, it still strikes me as much more involved than anything he does with Lucius. He seems to care a great deal more about why Narcissa acts the way she acts than he cares about why Lucius acts the way he acts.

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 20:56:13 UTC

Wait...Draco didn't ask Narcissa any questions under the truth serum. He ignored her even then.

I'm not sure how I expect him to react to any embarassing blood issues. Course part of the problem is that it's always hard to tell exactly what "pure" means. Someone mentioned ps having to worry that he's a mudblood but of course he's not--his mother and father are both magical. A mudblood has muggle parents. A halfblood has one muggle parent. Draco's never seemed to find much problem with Harry's blood himself--his mother's, yes, but Harry appears to pass muster. So while there's plenty of ways for her parentage to be embarassing but he'd still basically be pureblood wouldn't he? I can't tell...

luleh @ May 12 2003, 21:08:55 UTC

He questioned her. In Harry's post about wanting to go home:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/just_harry/7170.html?thread=112130

sistermagpie @ May 12 2003, 21:51:24 UTC

OMG--of course! I totally remembered the exchange but forgot it was under Veritaseum...even though I think at the time I said, "Gee, the fact that these are her answers under Veritaseum must make them even more depressing for him!" *smacks forhead*