tonic_x @ August 18 2003, 19:57:06 UTC

NA is a soul sucker.

Also:

Harry and Draco have shared a bed nonsexually

is a load of shit, in my book.

:D

*adds to memories* Thanks for doing this!

anjenue @ August 18 2003, 21:41:22 UTC

Perhaps they have shared a bed nonsexually, at one point...

...but that doesn't discount the possibility that they've shared a bed sexually as well.

If one of them was unconscious, after all...*leers*

primroseburrows @ August 18 2003, 19:58:06 UTC

You know, Harry says that he's not falling in love with Draco. True enough, but maybe it's because he's already in love with him. Just speculation.

Thanks for doing this!

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 20:00:18 UTC

Yeah I know.. I was going to group them under things like, "CLINTONIAN WORD CHOICE" and "CANNES FIGHT" "THE OUTING" et cetera... anyone I trust with my password feel like organizing?

dragynville @ August 18 2003, 20:08:00 UTC

Major *leers* to you! :D

BTW, the hypothetical relationship link is doing weird things.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 20:09:28 UTC

thanks. Will fix.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 20:18:42 UTC

Fixed.

anjaliesque @ August 18 2003, 20:13:15 UTC Great job. :))

I think they're being all vague so as not to divulge who it is Harry is seeing. That keeps us on our toes in hopes that it might be Draco. However, I don't think it is, though I'm not denying the tension between the pair. Just at this junction in time I think Harry is seeing someone else (with Draco's approval?) and I am dying to know who it is. Didn't someone have an elimination list of possibilities?

non_inferno @ August 18 2003, 20:14:58 UTC

Last time Draco kissed someone They rather liked it.

Fabulous! I hadn't noticed this. There's no way he would use such horrible grammar unless he was going out of his way to hide the gender.

non_inferno @ August 18 2003, 20:16:42 UTC

Also, thanks. This is very helpful.

neviachiel @ August 18 2003, 20:15:15 UTC

*adds to memories*

*sends much love*

nightflight @ August 18 2003, 20:19:49 UTC

Thank you so much for doing this.

<3333333

tymbrimi @ August 18 2003, 20:21:16 UTC

*<3's you SOSO much*

anjaliesque @ August 18 2003, 20:28:00 UTC Tab A into Slot B

J_H to PS: "I think you're being too picky about slots." Sheer genius. And in answer to which slots? "Both." x_X

I so totally missed that before. <3!

fourscore @ August 18 2003, 20:40:38 UTC Re: Tab A into Slot B

??

Huh. No, I think he meant the "both" in regards to whether he'd been on the receiving or giving end.

anjaliesque @ August 18 2003, 20:55:07 UTC Re: Tab A into Slot B

Oh yes, of course. I didn't mean the slots in connection to Draco. Ehh, sorry, I should have been more clear.

eponis @ August 18 2003, 20:48:24 UTC

I've spent an insane amount of time trying to piece together clues and come up with explanations for the various clues.

However, in the end, I think that yes, Harry and Draco have a quasi-romantic-sexual side to their friendship, and my reason is this. Both of them dance around the issue, but whenever Draco's been given a direct question about his sexual orientation or the possibility of kissing/sex/etc. with Harry, he avoids it. Period. Other things (Pansy being his girlfriend, Harry annoying him, etc.), he is perfectly clear and outspoken about, but he repeatedly refuses to simply say "yes, I'm straight, kissing Potter would disgust me" or something similar.

Now, I'll admit that Draco might enjoy messing with our heads. However, given the reaction of His Father to his relationship with Potter, I really seriously doubt that (if he could say those things with absolute truth) he wouldn't be saying them. In other words, he has no reason to absolutely denying everything.

Yes, I know, he and Harry could just have a really funny joke going on where they mess with our collective obsession with their relationship. They're kind of playing the "good cop/bad cop" game, where Harry feeds us shocking tidbits while Draco plays coy and elusive. Nevertheless, I cannot read Draco's (or Harry's) lack of saying one single thing that would preclude more-than-friendly-intimacy as anything but silent affirmation.

(There's also the fact that, by Harry's description of the guy he's currently seeing, nobody but Draco or a random non-LJ person would seem to fit. Also, of course, the comments above that they have seen each other naked, and that Harry's recent kiss matches perfectly with Draco's visit. None of that is conclusive, though.)

eponis @ August 18 2003, 20:55:06 UTC

Oh yeah, and I forgot to add to the evidence at the end: Draco refused to give a specific date to his last kiss (implying that he couldn't remember such dates), but immediately he did give a date to the time he saw Pansy in August. Implying, of course, that the two were different events.

Also, as I've said before, Lupin and Black were extremely coy about the D/H relationship in their comment threads. If Draco was just another friend to Harry, why would they not be open and free with saying it?

Anonymous @ August 18 2003, 21:16:09 UTC

A date of the last kiss really confuses me.
Draco said the last time he saw Harry in person 's likely the ninth or tenth.
Harry posted on the 15th that the last time he kissed someone was a couple of days ago.
So does "almost a week" equal " a couple of days"?

eponis @ August 18 2003, 21:31:10 UTC

I think that Draco's estimate may be off in this case. Draco says here that he saw Harry before they left for Italy, and Narcissa says here that they left on the 12th. Here, on the 9th, Harry tells Draco to come get it.

So, we have between the 9th and 12th, and Draco's entry makes it sound like he went right before they left on holiday. If it was the 12th, that's three days, which is roughly a couple.

At any rate, given that (by Remus and Sirius's reports) Harry's been sulking in his room for the rest of the time, there aren't any closer culprits.

Anonymous @ August 18 2003, 21:39:28 UTC

http://www.livejournal.com/community/nraged/270233.html?thread=6381209

I think Draco and Lucius left for Italy on the 11th.
Narcissa left on the 12th.

Anonymous @ August 18 2003, 21:51:00 UTC

http://www.livejournal.com/community/nocturne_alley/182657.html

Narcissa says on this entry that Draco and Lucius left in the morning.

Anonymous @ August 18 2003, 22:00:49 UTC

Oh..sorry, Narcissa arrived in Riviera on the 13th. Anyway, that's not the point.

anjenue @ August 18 2003, 21:48:37 UTC

I'm still sticking with my Pride and Prejudice theory.

For those of you that sort of know what I'm talking about, let me remind you. For those of you who don't, I shall explain as best I can.

Lady Catherine (the aunt of Mr. Darcy, a very rich man - think Draco-like - and we can sort of compare her to Lucius) visits Elizabeth (the heroine - think Harry) and confronts her about an alleged relationship that will lead to an engagement between Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy. She is furious and comes to make sure that this is not the case, as she could not stand the idea of Darcy being humiliated by the joining of him to a rather poor family with some scandal in their past and without any sort of connections. Elizabeth, who has spent most of the book hating Mr. Darcy, refuses to out and out say that she and Mr. Darcy aren't engaged, dancing around the topic at hand instead.

Her original intent was to stand up for herself, as Lady Catherine was being extremely rude about the whole issue. However, Elizabeth was the type of person who wouldn't have a problem forcibly denying a relationship with Mr. Darcy if she really had no romantic feelings for him. It is this fact that causes Mr. Darcy to come back to Elizabeth, saying that the fact that she hadn't denied it outright meant that he had some hope she was not without some affection for him.

I'm seeing a definite parallel here...Draco isn't out and out denying a relationship between him and Harry; instead, he's dancing around the issue. That's awfully suspicious to me.

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 21:49:31 UTC

um... is Draco still technically dating Pansy or whatnot?

Because Harry said the person he shagged was not dating at present.

Methinks that would clear matters up pretty quickly, if Draco and Pansy never formally broke up.

I honestly don't know what to think, though. N_A is rarely blatant, so I can't help but think it's not Draco. Of course, if it's not Draco... we're left with either Blaize (if it's a guy) or a non-Ljer. And that's baffling.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 21:53:08 UTC

Harry said it was a boy. They don't know what sex Blaise is. I think that if Harry was fucking Blaise that I would die from laughing harder than is physically possible.

There's a link above that says Draco is still dating Pansy, and another that says Harry doesn't mind that Draco is dating Pansy.

...Alot of people think Draco/Pansy is just a front, and so then, Harry wouldn't really count it as a relationship.

Everything is all purely speculation, of course.

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 21:56:20 UTC

I said in my comment "... Blaize (if it's a guy)" so I'm well aware of the gender mystery there.

If he is still dating her, do you really think Harry, after witnessing numerous adult relationships break up due to a third party, would ever assist (obviously unintentionally) in emphasising Pansy's role as a "front"? Do you think he'd really be party to anything that involves using other people to further one's own relationship?

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 21:58:44 UTC

There was a thread in the Q&A that answered that they still don't know Blaise's sex- that's what I was referencing, too lazy for linkage

I really doubt that Pansy would allow herself to be used. Either she's well aware that she's not dating Draco, and she's doing it because they're very close friends- or she's dating Draco and she's not a front.

eponis @ August 18 2003, 22:04:30 UTC

As the ardent Pansy/Millicent shipper I am (dude. They sleep together, they write love poems to each other . . .), I'm still in favor of the "Pansy and Draco have a superficial relationship because they both want things that their family wouldn't like" theory.

So no, she certainly wouldn't allow herself to be used, but she is close to Draco, and as long as she got something out of it (freedom to be with Millicent? money? who knows. . .), I doubt she'd mind. Their attitude towards each other has always been . . . well, playful, as if they were enjoying the state of being boyfriend and girlfriend, rather than the actual act of dating each other.

Yah, Harry said he's only heard Blaise's voice and doesn't know its gender, so Blaise is definitely out.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 22:07:28 UTC

#ships Pansy/M.B. like a mutha# I was going to say all that, but am feeling lazy... you said it much more eloquently than I would've anyhow.

I think Pansy enjoys playing roles very much, and that being Draco's girlfriend is just part of that (#point's to Pansy's Draco icon#)

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:14:38 UTC

Again, I'm well aware that they don't know Blaise's gender.

As for the Pansy thinger: if it's said that she's dating Pansy, then in one capacity or another, Draco can be seen as someone who is dating another. If it was tentative in any way, harry would have been more likely to write "sort of" than to write "no." H/D just seems too obvious a conclusion, and I don't think it's backed by the statements the players are making. The formation of H/D looks like it's going to be the pinnacle of N_A, so they're obviously going to let it build gradually over the next year, so it can form a satisfactory climax. N_A players do so love to tease nragers, and I still believe that, regardless of all the innuendo, they're in control of the situation enough to let the mystery drag out for a long time yet.

Just my two cents.

Anonymous @ August 19 2003, 01:04:54 UTC

A relationship would never be the pinnacle of NA. It may be featured, but it would never be the point of the rpg.

blue_lightning @ August 19 2003, 15:37:39 UTC

I didn't say it would be the "point" of the RPG; much excellent analysis and fleshing-out of our beloved characters has developed from this delightful endeavour. I merely meant that, from a plot perspective, it would be fitting for the "completion" of the H/D subplot to run alongside the culmination of the most wonderful RPG.

That's all I meant. Sorry if it sounded as if I thought N_A to be nothing more to be a sleaze-factory of smut. I assure you that's not the case at all. ^_^

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 21:58:57 UTC

and, remember... if my memory serves, the last thing Draco and Harry did together before Draco outed him was chase after Blaize in Hogwarts. That's spring enough, isn't it?

Maybe something went down then, and when Draco realized what Potter had done, THAT'S when he (one can hope it's out of jealousy) decided to out him.

Just another theory ^_~

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 22:00:30 UTC

AHAHAHahahahahaahahahaHAahahahahaha

You're shipping, so very strongly, Harry/Blaise is positively the best thing I've read tonight

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:03:50 UTC

I'm just trying to follow the clues. I don't ship one over the other. ^^ I'm just looking at this objectively.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 22:05:24 UTC

Well, for another point against Harry/Blaise... Draco says he knows who Harry is seeing, and Draco says he doesn't know the sex of Blaise. Harry is seeing a boy. #shrug#

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:07:43 UTC

"another point" against H/B, huh?

You raise a good point. I was merely offering alternatives, especially since, if Draco is dating Pansy, he doesn't fit the specs either.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 22:09:11 UTC

I'm sorry! I just can't take H/B seriously!

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:11:58 UTC

I wasn't taking it as seriously as I think you think I was. I was merely offering suggestions to be assessed by the group. That's what this community is for: analysis and feedback ^_~

non_inferno @ August 18 2003, 22:21:42 UTC

Draco's girlfriend is Pansy, but does he ever actually date her? I can't remember him referring to it as dating.

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:24:39 UTC

not all relationships involve rutting and/or snoggage. They were seen as being "together" and Pansy baked and doted on Draco for a long time, so I would assume that, yes, they "dated" in some sense of the word.

I also think that Harry wouldn't care about semantics. A relationship is a relationship. End of story. I say this because of the way he's responded to the adult relationship problems, and because of the way his character acts in general: straightforward.

takeonelook @ August 18 2003, 23:12:56 UTC

At first I would agree with you on the fact that Harry would consider a relationship a relationship no matter what. However, I get the impression that Harry has been proven wrong. He says that at first P/D bothered him, which makes sense since he likes the guy. And now it doesn't bother him much anymore. So maybe now he knows it's just a front and therefore there really is no reason for it to bother him.

But now looking up his response and reading it again, he says that it used to bother him but that it really doesn't have much to do with him, I'm not so sure about my above comments. This sounds like he's resigned to the idea that Draco has a girlfriend and he can't do anything about that, so no use letting it get to him. Unless it means that yeah it doesn't bother him because it's only a front, but he doesn'think Draco should have that front to begin with, but eh, that Draco's business.

Ok. So I just went all over the place and failed to make any kind of point. Oh well, now I feel like a true Nrager, speculating like there's no tomorrow.

blue_lightning @ August 19 2003, 15:19:16 UTC

Actually, I very much appreciate the way you laid out all the possible interpretations. The point about him accepting that Draco has a girlfriend also seems to make sense when you consider that he's not exactly optimistic about being able to be friends with Draco after Hogwarts. For the guy who's supposed to save everyone, it sure as hell seems like he's just accepting a lot of things as inevitable and unchangeable. Perhaps the S/R developments are at fault for this. Either way, it saddens me.

dragynville @ August 18 2003, 22:10:34 UTC

If Pansy is fully involved and aware that the relationship is a front, or if it's a front for her also, then I don't think Harry would see her as any kind of "third party" at all.

If, however, she thinks the relationship is real, then I don't see Harry being comfortable with that, both on the "third party" front and also the "using" aspect. He's just not that kind of person.

I do think that it's a front for her also though (it keeps her parents off her back and gives her the freedom to fool around with M.B.) and, therefore, not an issue for any of them.

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:13:28 UTC

I still think it is more in-character for Harry to have said "sort of" to the question about whether his shag-bud was presently dating, rather than "no." He's too straightforward a person to dismiss the external appearance of Draco's love life entirely

dragynville @ August 18 2003, 22:18:43 UTC

But if Pansy and Draco are not dating, and are only saying they are.. then Harry's answer would still be straightforward and IC.

eponis @ August 18 2003, 22:20:25 UTC

But somebody asked Draco straight-out if he was dating Pansy, and he said yes. My only counter to this (beyond one of the two lying, which I don't think would be the case) is that, like the "sex" question, the two boys honestly have different definitions of the term.

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:32:04 UTC

woo. thanks! there ya go then. unless we can't believe anything ps and j_h say (which would make the nraged community pretty much just a hub of nonsensical theorizing) ps is dating pansy and Harry is rutting with someone who doesn't have a girlfriend.

thanks again. ^^

dragynville @ August 18 2003, 22:33:15 UTC

What he actually said is Of course I am. And it was confirmed that Draco makes "Clintonian distinctions." I don't see Draco as having any problem with saying he's dating her if they have agreed to say they are. They have made an arrangement and that is a type of relationship.

takeonelook @ August 18 2003, 22:43:54 UTC

Whether the Pansy/Draco relationship is real, or merely a front, doesn't matter. In both cases, Draco would say yes to the dating Pansy question. I find it interesting the way he talks about her. When asked who he'd choose as adoptive parents he said Pansy's. That's a strange answer considering that's his girlfriend. Also, the way Draco talks about Pansy is very telling, at least to me. He says that they won't be together after Hogwarts because then he'll have a bigger selection to choose from. That doesn't sound like someone who really likes his girlfriend. He's very off-hand about the whole relationship. Even if he's no where near falling in love with her, you'd expect a little more excitement from a teenage boy when talking about his girlfriend. He seems more worried about talking and seeing Harry over the summer, than Pansy. The only thing that I've read in the H/D threads that have made the Pansy/Draco relationship sound real is those few comments where he talks about liking Pansy's thighs.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 22:47:23 UTC

Even I would go off in detail about Pansy's thighs if asked, and I'm mostly straight

Both of them can apparate. There's pretty much no excuse. You don't not see your extraordinarily hot girlfriend over the summer if you're really into her.

takeonelook @ August 18 2003, 22:50:47 UTC

My thoughts exactly :)

eponis @ August 18 2003, 22:53:19 UTC

::frowns slightly:: You bring up some good points. I guess I'm just trying to match the fact that Draco (seemed to have) said that yes, he was dating Pansy, and then later Harry said that his suitor wasn't dating anyone. And Draco didn't call him on that, like he did on the sex question. I totally agree that I think, whether or not D&H are together, that the Pansy thing isn't more than friendship and the name of dating.

As for the thighs thing, that totally cracked me up. He talks about them in the same way that I've heard people talk about cars or particularly nice meals: pure aesthetic appreciation, in his deliciously sardonic Malfoy way. I mean, if you compare it to the fond way he talks about Harry's features - his hands, his gestures, etc. - they're just different classes of speaking, and Harry is definitely the more intimate.

blue_lightning @ August 18 2003, 22:21:04 UTC

I don't think so. If the truth about the Pansy/Draco relationship cannot be told by outer appearances, and Harry knows he's talking to nragers, who have only outer appearances to derive information from, he would surely only give us answers that are within our means to process and assess.

That's how I see it, at least.

dragynville @ August 18 2003, 22:40:24 UTC

He can't exactly spill all their secrets where the other characters can read them (like Lucius), so he has to be subtle. And if Draco and Pansy have an arrangement that protects both of them, certainly none of them are going to blow the lid off of it. Plus, Harry's very private.

he would surely only give us answers that are within our means to process and assess

Since when has N_A ever done that? XD

blue_lightning @ August 19 2003, 15:14:56 UTC

It is within HARRY'S character to be honest and straightforward. Once it finally clicked that people were trying to get him to say who he was with, he was most apologetic about not being able to tell them. Until that point, he was answering with utter honesty.

I just don't see him as the sort to scheme and misdirect, that's all.

hobaggins @ August 19 2003, 15:27:30 UTC

I don't think Harry's as honest as we're all meant to believe (which doesn't mean I don't love him for it, because I do, very muchly)

I think he can get away with more because everyone thinks he's remarkably straight forward. I think, even if there wasn't H/D there are a lot of things that Harry is helping to cover up. I don't think we can take any player's words as straightforward gospel, there's always that pulling-wool-over-eyes layer that we never find out about for weeks.

blue_lightning @ August 19 2003, 15:34:28 UTC

they may do things in subtle ways, but Harry answered his questions with the simplicity of a contemplative adolescent. His responses to situations have also been very straightforward; he's blatant about his sulking, and expresses is frustrations as best he can, and goes into long rants about love when asked, as if he's still trying to figure it out for himself.

I just think it's more in his character to say "I can't tell you" than to lie. And he does the former. He DID the former in the thread about relationships. It would be great if he were lying about whether or not his shag-bud is dating someone, but to say he's lying in this instance when nothing else he says seems to lend to the belief that he misdirects and schemes is a little far-fetched.

Again, I think it's much more to the players' advantage to drag out the mystery of this relationship for as long as possible. It seems too early for Harry and Draco to be a couple. It also seems that the N_A characters are thoroughly enjoying keeping us in suspense. ^^ I think it's their patience and subtlety which only further supports that Harry was telling the truth when he said what he did.

takeonelook @ August 19 2003, 17:07:05 UTC

I guess the way I see it, is that Harry wouldn't consider it lying. Because if the P/D relationship is just a front, and he knows that, then to him no, Draco's not dating someone. So his saying no would match his straightforward ways. However, when answering questions about P/D he can't dismiss it outright because the front needs to be maintained, even if he's not happy about it.

In the question, the person he is discussing purposely remains anonymous, so he is free to answer the question without having to consider complications. So assuming that it's Draco, when answering, he doesn't have to take the Pansy front into consideration. I can just see him thinking: well he's not really dating Pansy, so no, he's not dating anyone. And then when the P/D question comes up he thinks: well, they're supposedly dating so, yeah he can have a girlfriend, and even if Pansy was out of the picture completely he could still date whoever he wanted, well there's issues when it comes to me, but anyway, and yeah their dating used to bother me, but since now i know it doesn't really mean anything it doesn't really bother me. I just wish he didn't feel the need to have to use a front in the first place, but those are Draco's issues, so yeah, and I like him alot(hee) so i'll take him as he comes.

Hmm. It could just be my wishful thinking though. *shrugs*

Anyway, I think from now on, people are going to be divided as to whether or not they believe the H/D. The players have made their characters and relationship so intricate and real, that we really can't know anything for sure. I am seriously awed by the complexity and subtlety of character interactions in N_A. It simply blows me away. One things is for sure though. Like you said, the players are having waaaay too much fun keeping us in suspense.

sistermagpie @ August 19 2003, 07:59:59 UTC

I think we feel very similarly on this. Harry, to me, seems to value honesty and straightforwardness in a relationship so I just can't see him going through layers of stories and denials. It seems like he's totally open with the person he's with now: they're not boyfriends but they've had sex a few times (starting in the spring), he figures one could say they were seeing each other.

Wasn't it in the spring when Ron "outed" Draco and Harry and made Draco furious? Harry was shocked Ron would even suggest he and Draco were boyfriends, which I don't think he would be if he and Draco were actually together. Back then Harry also stated that Draco was dating Pansy. I've always thought Harry was pretty respectful of that relationship, whatever he thought about it. It's not his business to say that Pansy and Draco aren't truly dating, especially if Draco is saying they are.

Anonymous @ August 19 2003, 12:02:39 UTC

Totally agree with you. Draco & Pansy may well fall into the category of friendship vs. romance, but that's clearly their buisness--as Harry confirms when he states that the relationship has nothing to do with him. It would certainly have something to do with him if he were sexually involved with Draco.

Moreover, I can't imagine Harry happily being someone's secret side-project. He strikes me as being straightforward and not the secretive type when it comes to his personal relationships--I mean, someone who said they didn't care what Lucius Malfoy thought about Harry's relationship with *his own son* would have to be (and probably a bit foolhardy too).

Draco is clearly the secretive, private type, but not Harry. Sure, Harry could be trying to respect his wishes to hide their relationship from daddy, but if he were currently doing that, why admit he'd had sex in the first place with a non-housemate (the only non-housemate we *know* he's attracted to is Draco) and why be so open about the fact that they have a close friendship--wouldn't it be better to maintain the public facade of friendliness and nothing more?

I'm sure D/H will probably happen eventually, but who says they have to be each other's first and only's? And Harry & an NPC could work out rather well--look at Neville & Sarah! Trust in NA.

My $.02

blue_lightning @ August 19 2003, 15:44:17 UTC

Precisely. Good points, Sister. Besides, what with the present situation, in which love triangles are destroying everything, would Harry REALLY permit himself to be part of a three-way triangle of his own?

takeonelook @ August 19 2003, 17:11:47 UTC

Well, his own love triangle, if he is indeed in one, started a good while before the current ones, so I don't know if that's a completely relevant point.
I mean, the current situations wouldn't affect his permitting himself to get involved, seeing as he is already involved. That's not to say, however, that the current situations haven't prompted him to disentangle himself from his little love triangle.

blue_lightning @ August 19 2003, 17:38:17 UTC

actually, the lucius/sirius thing has been going on for a while, remember.

I just don't think Harry would approve of being in a situation wherein his very presence is re-inforcing the "use" of another person for his own love-life. I think the only times he keeps things hidden is when others are at stake. In my mind, Harry is too straightforward and obvious a person to be deceitful, especially to himself. Just my take on the matter, that's all.

As you've summed up your views on the matter, and I've summed up mine (I hope) I guess there's little else to do but wait to find out more from the players themselves, eh?

^^ Thanks for the chat.

takeonelook @ August 19 2003, 18:41:12 UTC

Well, if there is something going on with Pansy and M.B, then the front would be beneficial for Pansy as well. If this is the case and Harry is aware of it, then he wouldn't as if he were using anybody.

As for the Sirius/Lucius, while it's been going on for a while, it hasn't been such an impacting issue until now. There was the duel, but after it was over it was over, and most of us (or maybe just me), though we knew the issue wasn't completely resolved, never expected it to break up Sirius and Remus's marriage.

Anyway, sorry to drag this out, but I just had to give those counterpoints.

And ditto! A good chat is always fun. :)

sistermagpie @ August 19 2003, 20:45:09 UTC

And she's back with more rambling!

I feel like there's even more deceit and danger involved for Harry than that even. If it were just a case of Draco and Pansy having a fake relationship to protect their real loved ones Harry might reluctantly go along with that for a little while, I guess.

But I think it's clear that Draco is still pretty desperate to maintain a persona of a straight boy. Harry's seen how vicious ps can be when he decides to lash out. Think of what a vulnerable position Harry would be putting himself in if he agreed to fool around with ps while pretending it wasn't really sex or wasn't really gay. I know I wouldn't trust ps enough to do that. Who knows when he might freak out again and attack or accuse Harry of some kind of coersion?

One of the main things I got from Harry in this thread was that he tried to be very realistic about his relationships, especially the one with ps. A couple of times he made a distinction between having a crush on someone or being "in love" (nervous stomach etc.) and actual love. He didn't seem to feel sure of ps at all yet, or really understand him, though he was happy for what he did have with him. I got the feeling becoming friends with ps had made him like him more but also destroyed any idealized crush he had in the past. I'd just have a hard time reconciling that Harry who's learned the hard way to protect himself and be careful who he lets in, and the boy who'd be carried away enough by his attraction to get involved with somebody as unstable as ps. Because even in that thread I still got the same feeling that sex was a very dicey issue for him, especially gay sex.

Draco knows how Harry feels; Harry hasn't agreed to pretend he's not attracted to him--probably this kind of honesty helped calm Draco down. I just get the feeling Harry would demand nothing less from Draco. Anything less seems like asking for trouble to me. Harry, in this thread, still felt like Draco didn't care about him that much but was confused by occasional signs that he did care. I just can't see Harry having sex with someone who made him feel that way. Personally I think Draco does care about him a lot, but it's much more realistic for Harry to not be so confident. JMO.

bookofjude @ August 18 2003, 22:27:59 UTC

I've got about the first five pages done and up.

hobaggins @ August 18 2003, 22:30:07 UTC

#fangirls#

tabiji @ August 19 2003, 03:21:35 UTC

*adores you*

noirenails @ August 19 2003, 03:00:29 UTC

Much love.
*adds to memories*

tabiji @ August 19 2003, 03:19:06 UTC

I've been working on theories with hobaggins (who is as obsessed as me), and here's what we've got:

It looks like they've had some lengthy heart-to-hearts, which is probably a huge thing for Draco at least, to have been open and candid with Harry. Harry says they didn't use Veritaserum, but I'm still wondering if the beverage fetching during the Astronomy Project may have included Veritaserum that Harry forgot about, or wasn't intentionally using. At any rate, they worked some things out when Draco confronted Harry about being gay. (Probably when Draco's mood was "fine"after he gave Harry a split lip when Harry was writing his speech).

Afterwards, if this resulted in Draco being curious about experimentation, maybe it IS Draco that Harry's been with. Maybe Draco's rationalized that it's not really gay sex if there's no penetration - so it doesn't count. Especially since Draco isn't worried that Harry will jump him.

So, if they had several encounters over the spring and summer, The Astronomy Project (where Draco left his snitch so he could go back for more,a series of meetings at The Hole, possibly the menagerie,and the greenhouse (confirmed by draco here),
the Towel Rack (when Draco left his watch so he could come back for more), and the manhandling watch retrieval.

tabiji @ August 19 2003, 03:19:51 UTC part 2

I'm wondering if perhaps it's a part of their arrangement that it's a "no strings" type of play, and of course a secret. Draco was infuriated when Ron announced that they were boyfriends, Harry said, "I didn't tell him anything" and Draco said, "Because Potter told him", both making it sound as if there WAS SOMETING to tell.

Harry says he's okay with the way things are now (because he's being patient? because he's afraid to push, because then he wouldn't get the occasional tryst that he gets now?), and that if the non-kiss incident hadn't happened, things would be different (because after the confrontation they made a no-strings arrangement?), and that he doesn't want a boyfriend (because that would make his encounters with Draco difficult/awkward/weird/wrong?)

Maybe the Draco Freak-Out around the time of Cannes was caused because Harry was feeling overly affectionate to Draco, who had just lost his Grandmother, and Harry slipped up and broke the rules by accidentally dropping the L-word? Harry comments here about what he should not have said and doesn't want to talk about when he said something stupid.

Of course, this could be all wrong, it could really be someone else that Harry is seeing, and maybe Draco's Freak Out came from the knowledge about it?

eponis @ August 19 2003, 03:52:14 UTC Re: part 2

Word.

That sounds just like what I was thinking, except with more and better linkage and details.

At this point, the only two arguments I can see against it are the "H/D will be the culmination of N_A, so it hasn't happened yet" argument, and the "something as significant as H/D would first be revealed in Nocturne Alley itself, not through Nraged" argument. On the one hand, neither of them are exactly hard arguments against the theory, but . . . well, I guess that despite all the evidence that does seem to point to that, something tells me that H/D is going to be revealed in a more plot-significant manner.

Of course, I also have a very bad feeling that "plot-significant H/D" might be related to what happened at the Malfoys tonight, particularly given Mr. Malfoy's comment here. But at this point, I'm just waiting for more evidence.

Anonymous @ August 19 2003, 10:39:13 UTC Re: part 2

Hmmm...interesting comments from both of you. I'm not terribly about the H/D, but all the speculation and mystery certainly does pull you in, and I think you're on to something with plot significant H/D potentially currently in the works. Harry seems to be missing and Draco hasn't commented in a while, so there's been no confirmation that he attended his meeting with Narcissa or that Millicent actually collected Draco as she said she was going to. (Theoretically, H/D could have gone off together, for a brief time at least to commiserate over their problems and perhaps do other things?) But as to Mr. Malfoy's comment that Harry confirmed they'd seen each other naked, eh... H/D are both quidditch players, between them they've probably seen half the male population of the school naked. Mr. Malfoy was just responding with his usual pervyness. If he actually thought something significant was going on... would he be making teasing comments like that?

primroseburrows @ August 19 2003, 06:43:42 UTC

I think that Harry "doesn't want a boyfriend" because he already has one, the person he's "seeing". Whether it's Draco or not, he's seeing someone, so he's all set.

I further think that these lovely players (all of them!) are very much enjoying messing with our minds, as they should.

I bow to their Clintonian genius. *bows, worships*

metaphoracle @ August 19 2003, 16:29:12 UTC

Just some thoughts.

Yes, H/D is the main object of N_A. But many months ago when I asked someone about it, they said that the goal was to be able to show H/D happening naturally. The players want it as much as the watchers. Again, they want it naturally. And kudos again to the players of potterstinks and just_harry for portraying real teenage boys despite the pressures of rabid H/Ders.

Nragers obviously get off on the mystery of H/D and if anything, this thread and the Q&A thread illustrates that the mania only increases the more information the players give out.

I don't trust any of the N_A players any farther than I can throw them. I'm waiting for the eventual break up that proves H/D can't exist in the long run.

PS--potions_master/lupercus is the new potterstinks/just_harry.

el_erzulie @ August 20 2003, 00:38:31 UTC

MUCH LOVE TO YOU.

They are totally dating. It's so obvious. I mean, in so my fanfics, they don't tell their friends. Why would NA be any different? I know Draco says he's with Pansy but it could be a coverup, I suppose he could have cheated also, and just... well. Harry is asnwering awkward questions and notice that Draco isn't getting mad, which is also odd...

I love them. *L*