| eponis @ 2003-08-30 14:43:00 |
Sirius is getting ready for start-of-term
An oddly distanced post - Sirius talks about plans for the year and apologizes to "the people he's hurt."
Also, this was in a nraged thread already, but this (scroll to the bottom) may be one of the reasons that Sirius is "certain Harry doesn't care."
Comments:
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Anonymous @ August 30 2003, 12:54:59 UTC |
Wow. I was shocked when I read that comment of Harry's. This makes me v. sad. :(
(parent)| therealycats @ August 30 2003, 13:19:02 UTC |
*a resounding "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" is heard throughout the campus as Stacy sympathizes with Snuffles* :(
(parent) |
Anonymous @ August 30 2003, 13:31:01 UTC |
VIBBLEVIBBLEVIBBLEVIBBLEVIBBLEVIBBLEVIBB
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aurorasinger @ August 30 2003, 13:34:26 UTC |
WOW. That was certainly unexpected and...painful. Wahhhhhh, what's happened to that lovely family?
(parent) |
jacay @ August 30 2003, 13:39:38 UTC |
Hmm. I didn't realize quite how important that was until I actually looked at the date on Harry's comment.
However, I find that kind of funny, for some stupid reason.
Still. *sob*
| luna_lg @ August 30 2003, 13:47:54 UTC |
O_O O_O O_O
................ye god...
*slowly goes into wibble mode...for the very first time*
| sistermagpie @ August 30 2003, 14:00:10 UTC |
I said this in the other thread, but I think it could be very healthy for Harry to open a little proverbial whoop-ass on Sirius.:)
I mean, Sirius is falling into a lot of self-pity and his attitude has always been that this is just who he is. But we know this isn't who he is. Sirius is easily better than a man who would flirt or sleep with someone trying to kill his godson. It's not asking much. I think it's really bad for Sirius to get further into this spiral of self-destructive despair and he's the one who's going to be the most hurt by it--he already has been. (Harry loves Sirius but he's always been able to survive without him.) Sirius still isn't really apologizing here--saying, "I'm sorry for the people I've hurt by my thoughtlessness" doesn't quite cover what he's done.
I would like to see *somebody* become a positive force for Sirius now, though, because I think he is definitely worth the effort, just as I've always thought potterstinks was. The two are not all that different in their being awful to get rejection and bringing the world crashing righteously down on their heads, but Sirius is older and so maybe it's harder for him to change. I think that's a big reason why they hate each other so much, that they're so alike.
Anyway, yeah, I'd say Sirius is probably at a very low low point here, but he might have to hit even lower before he can change. I can't think of what character could help him, but it would be great if one could.
| eft @ August 30 2003, 14:08:50 UTC |
I think that's why I, at least, am so upset over the loss of the Remus/Sirius... because it really looked, to me at least, like Remus was helping with those sorts of things. Which kind of makes it more painful that he dissolved the relationship, even if it was for very good reason(s).
(Love your posts, BTW. Very insightful!)
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Anonymous @ September 1 2003, 12:31:42 UTC |
It looks, and I'm by no means sure -- having seen only the manga, myself -- like a scene from Tokyo Babylon (the CLAMP manga/anime) where Seishiru has just lost his eye defending Subaru.
(parent)| eft @ September 3 2003, 07:49:07 UTC |
It's from the anime series X, or X/1999. Unfortunately, the main provider of screenshots was shut down due to the owner’s lack of interest.
http://yuukinouchi.tfenet.com/X/ind
=)
| serpensortia @ August 30 2003, 14:26:09 UTC |
Indeed, what character can?
Sinstra appears to be quite happy to drink with him, which I guess is some sort of support for the guy, but I don't know if she's really the sort who'd promote happiness and non-destructive behaviour in him (afterall, she does seem to have a love for trouble and drama).
The only other person I've come up with is Neville. If Sirius' work with him on his memory blocks goes well, maybe that will install a bit of self worth back into Sirius' life. Fingers crossed, hmm?
| eponis @ August 30 2003, 14:30:24 UTC |
Wow - that's actually a really good thought. Neville has had a rough summer of his own, and he may (or may not) be Head Boy, and so far, his plot thread has been mostly unconnected with the others. In fact, his main plot link is through Sirius. Let's hope that that gets developed.
::crosses fingers too::
| sistermagpie @ August 30 2003, 14:45:59 UTC |
First to eft: Thank you!
I couldn't come up with anybody but Neville's an intersting idea! On one hand Neville is a student and no matter how mature he is he isn't equipped to solve the kinds of problems Sirius has as an adult.
Otoh, though, it could be very intersting for Sirius to get into a relationship with a kid where he doesn't feel a lot of pressure. With Harry I think he was always aware of not being the father James was and having "failed" Harry before, always waiting for it to go wrong etc. With Neville there are less expectations, perhaps. Certainly Neville couldn't be a bad influence because he's Neville! And since he's not particularly close to Sirius he wouldn't be in as much danger for getting hurt.
We shouldn't necessarily count Remus completely out, yet, though. Even if they're not together Remus may take action if he sees Sirius destroying himself.
| eft @ August 30 2003, 14:51:53 UTC |
Even if they're not together Remus may take action if he sees Sirius destroying himself.
I really hope it doesn't come to that.
...
*crosses fingers*
| la_trix @ August 30 2003, 15:55:32 UTC |
He won't be helping Sirius through the trauma of getting this comment from Harry, though: it's listed under 
lupercus's memories as "Atta boy."
| sistermagpie @ August 30 2003, 16:46:39 UTC |
If I were Harry this would make me all the more sure my own flat was a good idea.
(parent) |
Anonymous @ August 30 2003, 17:07:27 UTC |
What is `atta`
Am confused non-native speaker and dictionaries say there's no such thing?
Please?
H.
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Anonymous @ August 30 2003, 17:12:58 UTC |
If I'm not wrong, I think it means something along the lines of "Well done, boy!"
(parent) |
ex_orangeglo298 @ August 30 2003, 17:15:56 UTC |
"Atta" is a sort of slang for "That a" I think. (Or That's a?) So, the comment, slang free, would be "That a boy." And both phrases are encouragements, like "You go, girl," "Good job."
Did I make it clear? Sometimes my explanations leave much to be desired.
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hobaggins @ August 30 2003, 17:16:16 UTC |
haha...
It's "that a boy" only... how people say it. It means good job. It would be generally accompanied by a ruffle of the hair and a knuckle-soft-punch in the shoulder, "atta boy"
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Anonymous @ August 30 2003, 17:58:52 UTC |
Thanks all of you.
You people here are so very kind.
| dari_brit @ August 30 2003, 21:13:11 UTC |
Criminy! That's down right vituperative, and reminds me much of RL divorce situations. Bad form for lupercus to encourage Harry towards promoting his own anger-agenda. It's understandable for Harry to feel that way, but not good of Lupin to reinforce the behavior with positive attention. You don't use the kid in the war between the parents!
| redbowties @ August 30 2003, 14:23:00 UTC |
0_o; I'm shocked and confused.
Why did he post that *there*? If anything, he should be proud of Sirius there, he hit Lucius..and that's good..right? Because we all thought that they were... you know, doing the nasty.
He could have done it on all those countless "I Love you Harry, please come home" posts...
But..why there...
| redbowties @ August 30 2003, 20:48:19 UTC |
How do you figure that?
You aren't saying that you think he is being hypocritical by saying that he loves Harry?
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Anonymous @ August 30 2003, 21:30:44 UTC |
Um. Because one minute he loathes Lucius and then next minute he's sleeping with him?
(parent) |
stefijeanw @ August 31 2003, 05:58:13 UTC |
No, not at all. Of course I think that he loves Harry.
I mean in his views of Lucius and his actions towards Lucius.
| theantimodel @ August 30 2003, 14:39:14 UTC |
Yeah but this is an old post, Harry obviously doesn't want anyone but Sirius to see this comment, so he chose a really old post. And since in this one Sirius had just shown how much he doesn't like Lucius is it really any surprise that Harry is pissed off about how much that's changed?
(parent)| luna_lg @ September 1 2003, 15:44:00 UTC |
O_O WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--
*chokes, clutches her chest, and falls down half-dead*
| saffronlie @ August 30 2003, 17:24:11 UTC |
Waah. Have been reading through Sirius's old entries to re-acquaint myself with the first breakup. Look! It's sad! But they did work it out again!
Of course, things are so much more complicated now.
| zorb @ August 30 2003, 20:08:25 UTC |
The fact that they broke up before, got back together, and then broke up *again* is what makes me think it's Over For Good. "Taking a break" is something they've already tried, and it failed.
Sigh.
| lunadeath02 @ August 30 2003, 17:49:32 UTC |
Whoa.
Never thought he had it in him! O_O
but at least he called him Professor.
| kat99999 @ August 30 2003, 18:26:20 UTC |
I was kinda thinking him referring to him as Professor is very insulting in that he's implying he's nothing to do with his personal life anymore.... *wibbles and pets Harry*
(parent)| dragynville @ August 30 2003, 18:56:29 UTC |
Yeah, like he's a stranger or just another of the teachers to him now.
(parent)| kat99999 @ August 31 2003, 02:07:57 UTC |
*sniffs sadly* It's sort of a very direct way of telling me to bugger off, really. Heh.
(parent)| kat99999 @ August 31 2003, 13:17:03 UTC |
OH, lmao ... I meant 'him'. lmfao *coughs* Wow, I'm an idiot.
(parent)| kat99999 @ August 31 2003, 13:24:56 UTC |
lmfao, if you're implying that I'm a player, I WISH. I'm just a total idiot, really. *laughs*
(parent)| dragynville @ August 31 2003, 13:26:35 UTC |
okaaaay.. ruin all my fun why don't you. ;_;
j/k XD
| lunadeath02 @ August 30 2003, 19:05:20 UTC |
^_^ oops, forgot to put [/sarcasm] at the end of that sentence.
(parent)| kat99999 @ August 31 2003, 02:08:42 UTC |
Ooh! lmao, okay that's my bad too for not being perceptive. *laughs*
(parent)| kat99999 @ August 30 2003, 18:25:24 UTC |
Dammmmmmn. Thank you so much for pointing that out, I would have completely missed it.
Our Harry. Talk about being all grown up.
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corrupteddreams @ August 30 2003, 19:09:43 UTC I am a newbie. |
*stares in shock*
*wibbles*
I hope everything is okay :(.
| imochan @ August 30 2003, 19:19:10 UTC |
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Part a of me: HAHAHAHA WOOOOOO HARRY!
Part 2 of me: WTF HARRY!
Part iii of me: :O!! WIBBLE HARRY.
Also, I wish I could be hopeful because of Sirius's post, but so much of me thinks he won't follow through with what he's said, and that makes me :((
| kissgodsnose @ August 30 2003, 19:23:45 UTC |
I hope somehow they work it out and Harry and Sirius can make amends. Or I will consistently weep for a long period of time.
| canisetlupus @ August 30 2003, 20:03:30 UTC |
Well, to be sincere, right now I am hating Harry with all my heart —of course, as much as you can hate a fictional character. Unfortunately, part of that hate is reaching Remus, who had been my NA favorite character until now.
People make mistakes, your parents (or "parents") included. Some of those mistakes are terrible or even unforgivable. But let's review Harry and Sirius' history together, shall we?
Sirius escaped Azkaban only when he realized that Harry was in mortal danger with Wormtail on the loose. It didn't matter that there were Dementors on his road.
Sirius risked his life during GoF by staying inside a cave near Hogsmeade (where someone could see him and warn the authorities). He didn't mind eating rats as long as he could keep close to his godson.
In NA, when Draco outed Harry, Sirius defended him. Maybe Remus did the prudent thing by calming everyone who was angry, but the one who was willing to be scolded by McGonagall (or maybe even fired), as long as he defended Harry, was Sirius. He publicly supported him —something Remus didn't do, at least not at that moment.
After the attack, it was Sirius who looked for him in dog form. It was him who remained by his side all the time, singing lullabies.
Has Harry forgotten all that? He's right to be angry. But he should think first of all Sirius has done for him, and ask himself if he has not hurt someone unwillingly (like Ron?).
And about Remus marking that entry as "Atta boy"... That is doubly disappointing. He is hurt. He has the right to be hurt. But he refused to forgive Sirius. And he's behaving as a child even if he's beem portraying himself as the loving, caring parent. A loving, caring parent doesn't try to turn his former spouse and "their" child into enemies, nor support a similar action. It seems as is Remus is more worried of being the good one of the movie and not about the potential damage Harry could recieve.
When a relationship ends, it is usually fault of both parts. We know Sirius' mistakes, but so far, we don't know Remus' because Sirius hasn't said a thing. As frustrating as it is to be unable to know the whole story, I respect that of Sirius' character (and player). There are private things. He prefered to remain silent and to let the others judge him without all the facts. That is something that, in real life, I would expect from my partner. Not to have him run and tell everybody which was my role on the ending of our marriage.
Was Sirius right? No. I might understand why he slept with Lucius (if he did) after their separation. But that wasn't right. That was terribly wrong. Flirting with Lucius, even talking to him, was terribly wrong.
But for Harry, to fall in the game of good parent/bad parent Remus and Sirius are obviously playing (as many couples do during a divorce) is disappointing. Truly disappointing. I expected more of him.
And about Remus, to be playing it... at least with Harry, he should had stayed silent. That "atta boy" has ended with the respect I had for him and how he was pulling out of this crisis.
*sigh*
Sorry for venting. I was about to explode. If you want to pelt me, I have tomatoes and lettuces, though I prefer to be pelted with good looking boys. ^_^UUUUU
| sistermagpie @ August 30 2003, 20:39:43 UTC |
I admit I am having serious trouble dealing with that "Atta Boy" as well. Really, really bad, imo.
(parent)| dari_brit @ August 30 2003, 21:16:52 UTC |
I call you the serious trouble dealing and raise you a big slow tear.
(parent)| black_dog @ August 30 2003, 22:06:22 UTC |
Good lord, after reading some of these posts I begin to understand how some people can rationalize staying in abusive relationships. Once again, all together now: Sirius' kink is to flirt and have sex with a guy who wants to murder Harry! I'm sorry, but if Harry has an ounce of self-respect he is going to tell Sirius to get fucked. And given how hard it is for Harry to assert himself in this way, to make this sort of clear and definitive judgment about the respect he's absolutely entitled to, I have to join Remus in saying "Atta boy!"
I know there's an undercurrent of rivalry between Remus and Sirius, and it's not the most becoming thing on Remus' part. And I know Remus has his issues. But really, this is a very important moment of clarity for Harry, and I just think it outweighs the other stuff for the moment.
| sistermagpie @ August 30 2003, 22:25:45 UTC |
For me it's got nothing to do with the rivalry between Sirius and Remus. I think it's great that Harry said did this (as I said elsewhere) and it's great for Remus to back him up on it.
My problem is I can't figure out why anyone would want to take the moment where Harry had to tell the man he once considered his only family, the man he wanted to be his father, to fuck off because he was now only a Professor to him and stick it in their own memories with a big "Atta boy!" on it.
To me this exchange is between Harry and Sirius. I can't think of a single reason for Remus putting it in his own memories that way that isn't kind of tacky, and not just in a getting-back-at-Sirius kind of way. This entry, to me, isn't just about Harry standing up for himself but about Harry feeling betrayed enough by Sirius to have to say this. I can't speak for Harry at all here, but if I were him I would feel rather violated seeing this moment claimed that way; I doubt I'd want it in my own memories much less somebody else's. And if I were Remus I just think I'd have thought it was disrespectful to do it.
| black_dog @ August 30 2003, 23:54:30 UTC |
I can identify with your take on it, and I do in fact raise my eyebrows a little at Remus wanting to get in on the action here, but when I start down that road I get a little uneasy, I guess. A part of me doesn't want to view this situation as tragic, because calling it tragic gives too much dignity to some really squalid behavior on Sirius' part. Tragedy can be sort of enervating -- oh, the pain! -- when a character internalizes a sense of how the world is constantly letting him down. At a certain point, a vigorous turning-away from those feelings, in disgust or contempt or mockery, is a healthier reaction I think. It's a reaffirmation that certain behavior is just too unacceptable to even take seriously, to pay it the tribute of letting it mess with you.
And in that kind of mood, you sort of want to chase away solemnity and respect, and get on with asserting yourself and asserting that you're done with wibbling and are moving on. I think that would be a good place for both Remus and Harry to get to emotionally. I don't think they owe Sirius even the indirect tribute of being crushed or devastated or upset, to whatever extent they can get away from those feelings. It's time for high-fives and not looking back. Or at least faking that until it feels real.
I continue to think this is a very hard but very important thing for Harry, in particular, to do. I mean the boy has had enough tragedy in his life, he's come to expect it as the norm. It's time for him to say, "This is not the norm. This is not what I deserve or can expect from people." He was screwed over, he was taken for a ride, he totally misjudged Sirius, but it's not the world's fault, it's Sirius' fault, and Harry can get over him. What he needs now is to go out and enjoy himself and not look back. Being able to fight his way to that kind of attitude is worth a pat on the back from Remus, I think.
Just my .02, anyway. But I honestly feel a little impatience about the sadness and wibbling, the regret at the lost relationship that is pervading so much commentary on this breakup. It's a choice to wallow in those feelings. There is much to be said for a clean break and a contemptuous dismissal of the past. I think it's healthier to treat Sirius as a grotesque figure who should never have been relied upon, a gruesome and comic mistake. Yes, it takes a sort of willed coldness to do that, but it's time for that now.
I don't know, from time to time I've been screwed over by people who made me hurt. And you have a choice between saying "the world is like that" and seeing the whole world in dark colors, or saying "X screwed me over, what an a-hole," and just deciding it's about them, not about you, and that person isn't worth any further upset.
Is this making sense? Sort of?
| luna_lg @ September 1 2003, 15:51:23 UTC |
Actually, this makes perfect sense. While I'm still upset that Harry actually did that...I do feel that it's time Harry actually lashed out at last. Now, if only Harry would just chew out Sirius once and for all...
(parent)| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 00:00:32 UTC |
I probably didn't answer that with enough focus on how all this is Remus' business, though I think I alluded to it along the way. The thing is, I don't agree that this is between Harry and Sirius. Sirius is history. This is, I think, about Harry and Remus bonding against Sirius, which is a good thing for both of them because: 1) they've been similarly let down, and 2) their relationship is what's left over, is what's important now. Maybe Remus is gloating a bit. But it was right for him to walk out, right for him to fight, and right for him to win. So I think he's allowed to feel victorious.
(parent) |
Anonymous @ August 31 2003, 03:05:35 UTC |
While I agree that Remus and Sirius do appear to be over, I wouldn't be so quick to say that Harry and Sirius are. Yes, that comment to Sirius was certainly vitriolic, but I think that the very fact that it was so angry and unexpected shows that this is still very much an open issue for Harry. Harry hasn't washed his hands of Sirius. Harry is clearly still angry and still hurting over Sirius, and if he had moved on and closed the door, I don't think he would bother with comments like that.
(parent)| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 08:05:27 UTC |
Why should it be an open issue? Why should anger and hurt necessarily point to the sentimental closure of reconciliation, rather than to the determined self-assertion of a clean break?
I just don't understand this urge to infantilize Harry's response into some sort of cry for help. He's feeling a totally legitimate sense of moral outrage that makes anger and vitriol and dismissal a completely appropriate response.
Sirius is toast, I think. Nothing healthy in Harry still needs him, and Harry wants and needs to be healthy. If Sirius goes through some sort of personal transformation and comes back to Harry and asks forgiveness, I can see Harry forgiving him. But not caring about him the same way ever again.
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 08:14:00 UTC |
Actually, I can see it being an open issue not in that Harry wants Sirius back in his life but that he wants Sirius to have to stand up and answer for himself, something he hasn't done thus far. Right now Sirius is still taking the position that this is just "who he is" and that's a cop-out. If I were in this situation I don't think I'd want him to get away with that. If he's going to betray me this way I'd want him to have to admit it. There are plenty of issues here Harry deserves answers on.
(parent)| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 08:35:32 UTC |
he wants Sirius to have to stand up and answer for himself, something he hasn't done thus far
Yes, that I agree with totally. But part of Harry's newly clarified attitude toward Sirius may involve knowing that might not happen, and deciding not to grow old waiting for it. I just think at this point he's more likely to be disgusted by Sirius' refusal to examine himself about this stuff, rather than simply being all wounded and needy about it. I think a light has gone on in his head about Sirius.
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 08:55:37 UTC |
Oh definitely! I don't think Harry is wounded or needy at all here. He doesn't need Sirius and he never has. He doesn't need anybody, really--I'll be happy when he's back at school and hopefully focusing more on his peers as well as his ex-godfathers. I think he's ready now to make his own decisions about which people he wants in his life and if Sirius wants to be one of them he's going to have to earn it.
And Sirius might. He's in a really pathetic place right now and acting quite spineless but underneath Sirius isn't spineless. I don't know if he'll ever get Harry back again but I haven't given up on him as a character in his own right. Hitting rock bottom might in the end make him the stronger person.
|
fourscore @ August 31 2003, 03:05:54 UTC |
I think the comment Harry made was very much about Harry and Sirius and had nothing to do with Remus at all. Harry probably isn't hurt so much about Sirius cheating on Remus (though I'm not saying it's not part of it) as he is that it was Lucius Malfoy of all people. I don't think Sirius is history, because I doubt Harry has just cut him out of his life that way. I mean, Harry has to be a thousand times upset by this and that doesn't really make someone history. If anything, him commenting to Sirius shows he's trying to make sure Sirius knows just how upset he is, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was trying to get Sirius to respond. He's obviously extremely angry at him for reasons all his own, and I think Harry's anger has a world to do with Harry and Sirius.
(parent)| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 08:12:21 UTC |
Same response as to anonymous right above, really. Doesn't it degrade Harry to say that he needs/is still connected to Sirius because Sirius can make him hurt? That's messed up. And where's the moral judgment here?
I think the issue was Lucius Malfoy for both Harry and Remus. Remus explicitly tells Sirius at the party that he knows Sirius can't be completely monogamous, doesn't expect it -- but that Lucius is a problem.
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 07:59:41 UTC |
I totally agree with your attitude 100% regarding Harry, but when it comes to Remus it just makes me ask, "Why did he marry Sirius?" Sirius was letting Remus down exactly the same way before the marriage too. It just confuses me. Has Sirius always just been about bonding with Harry? If we were talking about a long marriage here I might feel differently but this is only a few months of marriage dissolved over something very valid, yes, but something that existed front and center before the marriage. If Remus wasn't ready to bond himself to this self-destructive, dammaged guy why did he say he was? He's known the guy most of his life, after all. If I wasn't surprised by Sirius' behavior and saw it as coming from some perverse self-destructive place why is Remus so shocked by his personality?
Remus certainly doesn't owe it to Sirius to stay with him. His own needs and taking a stand for Harry's sake are important too. So it's perfectly fine that he left. But whatever husband Remus was publically mourning wasn't this one.
| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 08:29:33 UTC |
I don't think Remus left Sirius over infidelity. See reply immediately above to fourscore. I think Remus clearly went into the marriage willing to work with Sirius over his monogamy issues. Precisely because their bond stretched back to their childhood, I suspect that Remus felt, wanted to believe, that Sirius was basically sound underneath his damage.
What changed, I think, is that Sirius' continued infatuation with Lucius, especially after the attack on Hogwarts, came to appear to Remus as something fundamentally depraved. Some of this may have been a subtle change in Sirius -- Harry's comment is a brutal reminder that a year ago, Sirius would have knocked Lucius down for threatening Harry. Maybe some of it was Remus' own evolving relationship with Harry, and his understanding of what family meant to Harry. There are cases where you can lose all respect for someone because of their behavior to a third party. It's not that Remus was dismissing Sirius purely on Harry's behalf, purely in a disinterested or generous way -- rather I think Remus himself felt he could no longer tolerate what Sirius showed himself to be.
I think the person Remus was mourning was the Sirius he had hoped still existed, he had hoped to work to recover, under the damage of Azkaban.
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 08:47:34 UTC |
Oh, I don't think it's just infidelity either (though I think there's a lot of issues at work here). Sirius' depravity, though, is exactly what I'm talking about. It's always been, for me, one of the most obvious things about Sirius' personality, even when it didn't take the form of flirting with Lucius. It's always seemed to me that one couldn't be attracted to Sirius without being attracted to that depravity and that's why so many NRagers have reacted negatively to Sirius all along.
I think the person Remus was mourning was the Sirius he had hoped still existed, he had hoped to work to recover, under the damage of Azkaban.
This is exactly why, imo, he shouldn't have married him. That Sirius never existed and probably never would have. For the most part, all my sympathy for Sirius is because he's so screwed up. I don't feel sorry for him for the way other people like Remus and Harry are treating him because he asked for that treatment with his behavior. But this is the one place where I think Sirius wasn't off-base. If Remus was in love with a Sirius he hoped still existed than Sirius is correct in thinking he could never live up to that. Not that this makes it therefore logical for him to flirt with Lucius Malfoy, of course. I just wonder what other things will get swept under the carpet because Sirius' wrong is so easily spotted and correctly judged as wrong.
| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 09:54:11 UTC |
I agree with you about two-thirds of the way, here, and sort of in a jigsaw-puzzle pattern. Interesting to work through this, as always!
I can totally buy in to your argument that the marriage was a mistake. I don't know backstory far enough back to evaluate whether Sirius was always "depraved" -- promiscuous, yes; nasty-tempered, yes; but those are things you can be "working on" and I certainly don't put those things in the same category as his decision to flaunt Lucius in front of Harry. Were there more specific examples of depravity you were thinking of? But as I said, I'm perfectly willing to accept for the sake of argument that Remus made a mistake in marrying Sirius, that he let his hope and optimism get the better of him.
Where I can't follow you is to the suggestion that this makes Remus a partner or enabler for Sirius' failures. I think Remus has been very, very careful not to try to remake Sirius, or to put pressure on him that he can't live up to. There is a suggestion that Remus' hope somehow allows Sirius to say "you should have known better, you can't expect anything different from me." But in the first place, we see from Harry's post that Sirius has changed -- there's no way Remus could have expected that Sirius would come to tolerate someone who was threatening Harry. Second, whatever Sirius' underlying issues may be, a refusal of any self-examination is an additional and separate issue. Remus may not have expected Sirius to be able to change fundamentally, but at the same time he might have quite reasonably expected him to be open to some self-examination, open to preserving the new, good things in his life. One of the most exasperating things about Sirius is his flippant and evasive response whenever he's called on his own behavior. Surely Sirius made some promises to Remus when they decided to get back together?
So I'm not totally sold on the notion that Remus should have expected what he got. But if we allow even that further point for argument's sake, what does it prove? Are you suggesting that Remus deserves as much criticism for his mistaken hope as Sirius does for his ongoing viciousness? Are you suggesting this is a mistake that Remus deserves to be punished for? Does it diminish Remus' moral authority once he realizes the situation is hopeless and starts working to give Harry and alternative bond?
Switching to the question of Sirius as a character, I completely agree that our responses as readers need to be much more open and receptive than Harry and Remus' judgements as fellow-characters; they are completely different kinds of judgment. And I say, bravo to Sirius' player for creating such a brilliantly realized pig! I definitely admire the rigor of the portrayal, the way Sirius can do and say one excruciatingly awful thing after another without breaking character.
But -- and I wonder if this makes sense -- I find Sirius' character as a force in the story more compelling than his personality abstractly considered. I find the trail of damage he leaves behind, combined with his obstinate refusal of any real introspection or responsibility, to be a compelling and wonderfully-conceived show. But I don't think his personality itself is all that complicated or sympathetic.
I really do think that Sirius is an opportunist and a narcissist who's been dining out on his years in Azkaban. Where there is some degree of complexity, I think, is in his occasionally compulsive attraction to self-destructive situations. I think Sirius would like to think this makes him dark (or perhaps, "darque") but I don't buy it. He's basically a hedonist with a few unhealthy obsessions and a limitless capacity for justifying himself. Dark implies a degree of introspection, of tragic internal conflict, that I think Sirius does everything he possibly can do to avoid.
So I enjoy the character rather than sympathizing with his troubles; I admire the execution, a lot, but from a certain literary distance. But as for thinking that Sirius is tragic and sympathetic -- well, I think people who fall for that are Sirius' natural prey. ;)
[I'm heading out for the day -- if you want the last word for now, I'd love to pick up the discussion tonight.]
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 11:51:14 UTC |
This evening is fine with me--I love dissecting this!
Were there more specific examples of depravity you were thinking of?
To me Sirius has always seemed to want to degrade himself which is why he's never struck me as anything like the "dark and brooding" Byronic type. He just seems to have always given the impression that he is not going to uphold many of the most basic things one would expect from an adult or a teacher because he claims he can't. Even his little hints about ps' sexuality, for instance, would have been enough to show me that this person was outside of my comfort zone in terms of behavior he thinks is reasonable. Not because I'm being protective of ickle ps but because it made me uncomfortable seeing this grown man sinking to that level with a student.
He's been tolerating Lucius Malfoy for a while now without Remus ever knowing why, which I'd think would be #1 on one's list of things to understand before one married this guy. I've never thought that flirtation was purely about sex or Lucius being attractive. Sirius may say it is but as we know Sirius uses sex to cover up most impulses. Sirius has already seen more than once how Remus reacts to his flirting with Lucius, therefore it seems logical to me that Remus' reaction to the flirtation is part of the reason Sirius does it. I can't say what Sirius gets out of that, of course. Maybe he gets some satisfaction out of Remus' disgust. I have no idea what Sirius' motivations were that first night he came home especially. The fact is that all these flirtations primarily effect Sirius' relationship with Remus and Harry primarily, not Lucius. I don't think Sirius hasn't noticed that.
Where I can't follow you is to the suggestion that this makes Remus a partner or enabler for Sirius' failures.
Oh, I wouldn't say Remus was an enabler for Sirius' failures at all. Sirius' behavior is all his own doing and not justified by anything he might have been feeling at the time about Remus. My thoughts about Remus' view of the marriage based on his reactions now are totally separate from Sirius' actions.
Surely Sirius made some promises to Remus when they decided to get back together?
I definitely agree with your feelings on Sirius' flip response to his bad behavior. His refusal to examine himself is one of the biggest problems here and with Sirius in general. He just hides behind, "Well, I'm a flirt," which is no answer. I'm not sure we can be certain what Sirius promised when they got back together. His posts now seem to indicate he never promised to be anything other than "what he was" (which he claims is a guy who can't control is flirting).
I really do think that Sirius is an opportunist and a narcissist who's been dining out on his years in Azkaban. He's basically a hedonist with a few unhealthy obsessions and a limitless capacity for justifying himself. Dark implies a degree of introspection, of tragic internal conflict, that I think Sirius does everything he possibly can do to avoid.
I would never describe him as a narcissist, myself. He seems too self-loathing and aware of other people's reactions to him. A narcissist is more like how M.B. described Narcissa: someone who honestly thinks they're the only person in the world. Sirius' hedonism, to me, seems tied to debasing himself more than just a pursuit of pleasure. But other things I totally agree with--I don't see Sirius as a grandly tragic Byronic figure driven by inner demons. He seems more childish and stubborn, self-pitying and his life reflects that. He's not so much conflicted as stubbornly sticking to his own limited view of himself as the Person Who Can't Do Anything Right (which totally avoids his own responsibility and is kind of arrogant too). That's part of what makes me like his character, though, and it makes me admire his player more than words can say.:-) Most people would rather play grandly tragic than self-pitying and destructive, but self-pitying is a lot more common in the world. That s/he is willing to make me uncomfortable watching Sirius smash all his chances for happiness without being able to blame it on other characters or justify it gives me even more reason to see potential in Sirius' character.
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 11:53:15 UTC |
In terms of Azkaban I don't blame it for his personality. I think he was always immature and making excuses for himself. But I do give him credit for surviving it. I don't think we should underestimate what a feat that was. That, to me, indicates that when pushed Sirius is remarkably strong, capable of focus and fortitude. It wasn't just self-pity that kept him going there.
But as for thinking that Sirius is tragic and sympathetic -- well, I think people who fall for that are Sirius' natural prey.
Which brings us to Remus.:-) Obviously Remus wasn't the kind of prey you're describing--I wouldn't say he fell for Sirius being tragic and sympathetic. I don't agree with those who see Remus as suddenly acting like an awful person here, but I also think it's very understandable why Remus is suddenly getting a reputation for drama. One of the things I love about NA is the way all the players have a handle on how their characters post. An lj is a personal thing, as you know. Everyone's has a different character. There's a world of difference between how someone like M.B. writes (mostly describing the inanity of others) and ps writes (fashioning himself the hero of his own personal epic with everyone else in supporting roles). Remus is much closer to ps' (and Snape's really) style, imo, so I don't consider him totally reliable in his descriptions of other people at all. In fact I think the objective view tends to peek out through ps' and Snape's posts even more than Remus.' I do feel like the real Sirius described above has been superfulous to this marriage all along. That doesn't mean I blame Remus for what happened or for the family breaking up or Harry getting hurt, it's just an observation.:-)
| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 17:15:06 UTC |
To me Sirius has always seemed to want to degrade himself which is why he's never struck me as anything like the "dark and brooding" Byronic type. He just seems to have always given the impression that he is not going to uphold many of the most basic things one would expect from an adult or a teacher because he claims he can't.
I'm divided on this a bit. It seems to be that if Sirius were always wanting to degrade himself, he'd be an interesting head case and easier to pigeonhole. He has a bit of this self-destructiveness in him, but if it were the dominant note in his personality I think he'd be much less competent about day to day things. He successfully holds a job, after all, and is a compelling and thoughtful DADA teacher, and is doing some genuinely innovative stuff with Neville. This feeds into my sense that there's something posed about Sirius, that he's more high-functioning and not as fundamentally messed up as he'd like to pretend he is -- or rather, that he's messed up in a quite different way from the "darkness" he'd like to draw attention to.
I would never describe him as a narcissist, myself. He seems too self-loathing and aware of other people's reactions to him. A narcissist is more like how M.B. described Narcissa: someone who honestly thinks they're the only person in the world. Sirius' hedonism, to me, seems tied to debasing himself more than just a pursuit of pleasure.
A charge of narcissism may not quite completely stick, but I'm not totally willing to walk away from the term. I do think Sirius is radically convinced that whatever he does, whatever he feels, is right and justified. I think he does show a shocking lack of empathy to other people -- even his responses to Remus and Harry sometimes feel stereotyped and odd. In the Q&A, he gives a soppy and superficial</i> response to why he was first attracted to Remus; when asked about his best memory he makes a shocking detour to Godric's Hollow before describing his feelings at finding that Harry had survived.
Or contrast the tone of Sirius' and Remus' visits with Harry. The visits to Disney World or the seashore seemed mostly about Sirius' own reactions and vague anxieties about Harry's regard for him, with Remus' accounts of Little Whinging or Leeds are extended, sympathetic observations of Harry. Sirius' disdain for other people, his belief in his own specialness and entitlement because of his experiences in Azkaban, are also traits that strike me as narcissistic.
I'm not saying Sirius fulfills all the DSM criteria, LOL, but my take on the dominant note in his character is excessive self-regard rather than excessive self loathing. People can exempt themselves from the normal rules because they're "special," too, not just because they're unworthy.
In terms of Azkaban I don't blame it for his personality. I think he was always immature and making excuses for himself. But I do give him credit for surviving it. I don't think we should underestimate what a feat that was.
Agreed! Sorry to continue in an obsessively clinical vein, but I thought for a while about Azkaban and PTSD, the whole biochemical thing where you obsessively need to re-enact trauma because nothing else releases those nice soothing chemicals. But it wouldn't add up. Sirius doesn't seem depressive, or dysfunctional in his work, or susceptible to flashbacks, or vulnerable to jumping at unexpected noises. He's tough, he's a survivor, and he did as well as could be expected in Azkaban, though he'd be happy to have us all think he was ruined for life by it.
I know it's cruel, but I think he's basically a lazy and selfish person who is happy to use Azkaban as a meal ticket -- a justification for his own self-indulgent behavior and a basis for making claims on others' sympathy and tolerance.
[continued . . . ]
| black_dog @ August 31 2003, 17:17:24 UTC |
[. . . continued]
Maybe you're right, and he's fundamentally just very childish, and Azkaban spared him the necessity of ever growing up. But I think one reason I feel such exasperation toward Sirius is the sense that the drama and the darkness and the hurt are all a big pose, that he's really much healthier than that but has never felt any obligation to pull himself together.
I do feel like the real Sirius described above has been superfulous to this marriage all along.
Eh, maybe I'll save Remus comments for another post. Again I get a vibe here that Remus must deserve whatever he got for being excessively hopeful about the way he went into marriage with Sirius. I just can't buy that. I see Remus as emotionally complementary to Sirius in a way that might have been good for them both -- one person's drama queen is another's "emotionally open" person, and sure, Remus has the vices that go with his virtues. But I just can't see Remus having any kind of sinister, self-aggrandizing project of "reforming" Sirius that would make the downfall of the marriage some kind of retribution for Remus' hubris. He's been very respectful of Sirius' issues, and he picked his final fight over a matter where he was totally justified in drawing a line in the sand. That's my initial take, anyway, but I'll think more about it if you can make a further case for ripping into Remus!
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 19:23:14 UTC |
It seems to be that if Sirius were always wanting to degrade himself, he'd be an interesting head case and easier to pigeonhole.
I think that's more realistic. Sirius functions in a lot of areas but he also has a pattern of being stupidly self-destructive in others. I totally agree about him being posed in his "I can't help it poor me" attitude. He could easily have not flirted with Lucius. He chose to do it. He's not mentally ill or incurably disfunctional, he did it because he got something out of it. If he's trying to get everyone to see him as dark he's doing a pretty poor job of it--it seems like the best he gets is a sort of condescending sympathy. Most people just tell him he's an idiot. Then he gets sulky and "I can't do anything right" about it. That, to me, is the thing he's consistently going for, that he's unloveable. Not that he's dark.
I think he does show a shocking lack of empathy to other people -- even his responses to Remus and Harry sometimes feel stereotyped and odd.
I think people have been noticing that for a while. I remember Aja once saying she felt like Sirius never spoke to Harry unless it was to flirt with him. This isn't the person I would want to marry. Did Remus? If his reactions seemed stereotyped that doesn't necessarily mean he lacked empathy though, it may just have meant he was trying to give the reactions he thought people wanted. He may have been feeling a lot of things he couldn't express, we don't know.
Or contrast the tone of Sirius' and Remus' visits with Harry. The visits to Disney World or the seashore seemed mostly about Sirius' own reactions and vague anxieties about Harry's regard for him, with Remus' accounts of Little Whinging or Leeds are extended, sympathetic observations of Harry.
Well, yeah. Sirius and Remus have very different styles of posting and Remus does like to tell extended sympathetic observations of Harry (which would make me really uncomfortable if I were Harry but I don't think Remus means anything bad by them and perhaps Harry really appreciates them). I tend to think of their posting styles saying more about what the way they post than their feelings about Harry. Remus has a real talent for this kind of thing. I wouldn't be able to write like he does about someone I love, I don't think.
People can exempt themselves from the normal rules because they're "special," too, not just because they're unworthy.
Feeling one is unworthy, I think, is a form a perceived specialness too. By stating his "weaknesses" outright Sirius gives himself permission to do these things--it's complete bull. Sirius isn't flirting with Lucius because he's just "that way" he's made the decision to flirt with him knowing the history between Lucius and his family. Sirius has not yet admitted to others or perhaps to himself what he's really doing. I'm very interested in knowing just why he's doing it.
I know it's cruel, but I think he's basically a lazy and selfish person who is happy to use Azkaban as a meal ticket -- a justification for his own self-indulgent behavior and a basis for making claims on others' sympathy and tolerance.
I think he's more than lazy and selfish. Sleeping with Lucius (if he did) was, imo, a decisive act, one that would have the unavoidable result that it had. Lazy people, imo, do not bring their worlds crashing down around them the way Sirius has been able to do. Ironically, I've become much more fond of Sirius as a character since he did this horrendous thing. Before I used to think, "Am I the only one who thinks Sirius shows signs of real problems?" and when he did this I thought yeah, his player knows exactly what s/he is doing. S/he's playing a kind of person that really exists and not making him a hero.
re: Azkaban, does Sirius talk about it much? I don't remember him ever bringing it up. Of course it's something that's THERE without his saying it so he could be doing plenty of subtle things to remind people of it. But even if he doesn't have PTSD it could have solidified parts of his personality he'd need help to undo.
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 19:33:30 UTC |
Again I get a vibe here that Remus must deserve whatever he got
See, the words "Remus must deserve..." already sound totally foreign to me. I honestly don't think Remus deserved this at all. Remus deserving or not deserving anything has really never entered my mind. My main thoughts about Remus are just that he's going to be just fine, that he will be able to move on with his life. This break up could be way more painful for him than it seems to be. I just feel like he was always more attached to the Sirius in his mind than the one that exists. Remus and Harry's reactions to Sirius are fine with me, but I think the reactions of family would be more painful.
for being excessively hopeful about the way he went into marriage with Sirius.
I think "excessively hopeful" is nothing anyone should ever be about the person they are marrying. I think the very worst parts of the person you're marrying are the things you need to be the most sure about. Remus is perfectly justified in walking out over this but I also shudder to think how awful it would be to live with someone who married you in an excessively hopeful mood. Sirius' actions were completely wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn he was very unhappy at the time.
Oh, and regarding Sirius' soppy and superficial reply to when he fell in love with Remus...I think his reply is actually less soppy and superficial than Remus.' Do you really believe Remus fell in love at "My name is Sirius Black?"
| anamirza @ August 31 2003, 20:07:12 UTC |
I just feel like he was always more attached to the Sirius in his mind than the one that exists.
It was this aspect of the whole breakup that rang so true to me - and I don't think it's a bad quality at all to have faith in someone despite some of their actions. You both seem agreed (and here I risk exposing my poor reading comprehension skills) that Sirius is not simply "that way", that he is making these self-destructive decisions - through whatever psychological impulse - of his own free will.
It seems that Remus, too, knows that he is not "simply like that", knows that he doesn't need to be the person he has been. And maybe he has come to the decision that the repeated forgiveness he has offered has not created a space in which Sirius can be himself, but has enabled Sirius to be as self-destructive as he chooses. So he withdraws the forgiveness. He might feel that so long as those important to Sirius - Remus and Harry - forgive him, Sirius will continue to act as he has just done. It's hard to imagine Remus really being that analytical about it - but perhaps he understands it in an intuitive way.
What an angstfest.
| black_dog @ September 1 2003, 01:00:38 UTC |
I think you make a very interesting point that Remus has to re-evaluate his tactics for dealing with Sirius. If it's true that Sirius is not "that way," that he has at least the potential for cleaning himself up, then the question for people who love him is, how best to enable that kind of progress. It's dangerous to take on the project of consciously reforming people -- they tend to resent it a lot! -- and it often is a matter of faith that if you treat people with tolerance for their foibles and give them a chance at a good life, they'll come around on their own. I suspect this is probably where Remus was coming from, to some extent.
But of course, it doesn't always work and sometimes you're just giving people more space to act out, and even to get worse. What I'm worried about at this point is how bad the incident that forced the re-evaluation actually was, and how radical a re-evaluation is necessary. Did Sirius' behavior with Lucius reveal something that always existed in his character, so that Remus felt he had been naive and an enabler? Or does it represent a real downward spiral for Sirius that caught Remus off-guard, and he's now wondering if Remus is worth it after all?
"Tough love" is very much a last resort intervention, because if you're wrong about the person you're trying to fix, it's just going to be over. And maybe, in this case, it should be over, maybe what Sirius did is too over-the-top and it's healthier for Remus and Harry to just cut him off.
What an angsfest, indeed!
| sistermagpie @ September 1 2003, 08:33:31 UTC |
Although I'm not sure yet if Sirius' reformation is on anyone's agenda. It was tough love for Remus and Harry to walk out, but Harry's "Fuck you" and Remus' "Atta boy" are not. If Sirius is out of there life Sirius is going to have to look elsewhere for his tough love.
(parent)| black_dog @ September 1 2003, 00:42:21 UTC |
Well, I'm going to start with the end, again, because I think our evaluation of Remus' reaction to Sirius is a way to open up some of the remaining issues we have about Sirius!
I think we're at a bit of an impasse in interpreting Remus' motivations in marrying Sirius, and I may just be somewhat thick-headed about your point. I'm reluctant to put words in your mouth because I think I may have inadvertantly done that above, but it seems to me that you do fault Remus for going into the marriage with unreasonable expectations, with an implicit agenda to reform Remus, or at least an over-optimistic sense that he was reformable. I guess by contrast I tend to see Remus as doing no such thing, at least in any important way -- as having reason for feeling he was indeed "most sure" about Remus' "very worst parts."
The importance of the point emerges in how we evaluate Sirius' flirtation with Lucius after the attack on Hogwarts and the near-fatal injury to Harry. Is this behavior something Remus could or should have reasonably anticipated, based on Sirius' past conduct? Or is it new and problematic, in a way that would make it more understandable that Remus would suddenly revise his judgment about Sirius?
It's true that Sirius has a history of flirting with Lucius. But he also has a history of being ferociously protective of Harry, and when the two issues collide, his concern for Harry has won out in the past. Prior to the Hogwarts attack, it was possible to see Lucius as not necessarily always being about the threat to Harry. The incident at the bachelor party, where Remus sulks and goes off with Fred, implies that Remus took that flirtation as an insult to himself, and also that he came to recognize this was an no-win response to Sirius' monogamy issues. Remus, appropriately, feels an obligation to apologize for his own behavior -- he knows he can't be on a mission to change Sirius or make demands that cut across his nature.
But the latest fight over Lucius has very different stakes. I won't rehash all the obvious reasons. But I found one remark of Sirius' -- "I waited a month to come home to this?" -- just shockingly brutal and self regarding. It had the brittle nastiness, the self-absorbtion, the irrational sense of whinging entitlement, the complete obliviousness to other people's experience and feelings, that we associate with -- yes -- the worst kind of narcissism. It was a really hateful and destructive comment.
I think that Remus, even allowing for "the worst" in Sirius' character, was entitled to be genuinely shocked by the position Sirius took in this whole argument. Sirius had always been "reliable" in the past on the question of any harm to Harry. Sirius had never been quite so contemptuous of plausibly expressed feelings. There's something new here. And perhaps it is only that the shock of Harry's injury, the stress of being away for a month, was a bit too much for him, unhinged Sirius a little. But I can see Remus looking at Sirius here, and thinking, defensibly -- this is new, he's sunk to a depth I didn't ever expect from him.
I'm fascinated by your own observation that Sirius' decision to sleep with Lucius confirmed your judgment about him, confirmed your sense that the player had a strong sense of the character. Do you see it reflecting a permanent truth about Sirius, illuminating his past behavior? I guess I'm more inclined to see it as an episode, as Sirius behaving spectacularly badly under spectacular stress. It may be that the harder you push Sirius, the uglier he gets, which is itself a justification of Remus' attempt to go easy on him in the marriage.
But let me be quiet a minute and just ask you -- what truth about Sirius' character do you feel is revealed by his decision to sleep with Lucius?
[continued . . . ]
| black_dog @ September 1 2003, 00:46:02 UTC |
[. . . continued]
In many other areas, I think our take on Sirius is converging. He's often high-functioning, he's not as dark as he pretends, there's something about him that's more juvenile and irresponsible than deeply warped. I guess we would agree that one of his tics is to make other people's willingness to be disappointed in him into a self-fulfilling prophecy, or to deliberately exasperate people who have high expectations of him. Am I correct in saying that I see this more as a warped self-regard -- "how dare you judge me, I'll do whatever I want" -- and you see it more as poor self-esteem and self-destructiveness? You felt my use of the terms "lazy and selfish" was inadequate, so perhaps I should say, "lazy" about pulling himself together, evasive about confronting the actual determinants of his situation, which can be quite an effective way of letting your world collapse around you through sheer neglect of what sustains it. I would stand by "selfish" in its simple sense, though his lazy reality-testing means his selfishness is not very effective in the long term.
Well, there is more to engage in your argument but I'm going to plead 3:30 am for cutting it short. I did want to note one thing -- you make an interesting methodological point, twice, about "posting styles." The burden of the point seems to be that the evidence of character traits revealed in a post can be overstated, that analysis can neutralize many apparently important disclosures into mere mannerisms, so that they should be given less weight than they would appear to have on the surface. Maybe I'm not understanding your point. I would agree that the posts are performances, and are not naive self-disclosure. But I think we are always interpreting one another's performances to make inferences about the kind of person who would construct such a performance. If Sirius always posts about himself, and Remus always posts about his company, that difference would seem to reflect a persistent difference of character even if both patterns are mere "posting styles." But I'm open to hearing more about this point, because it sounds very interesting.
One last point, only because you edited your final post to include it -- you suggest Remus' answer to the question of when he fell in love with Sirius is as sappy and stereotyped as Sirius' answer. But "My name is Sirius Black" is an obvious exaggeration, a bit of wit, something light and charming and sentimental. I don't think it's at all the same as Sirius' labored, stereotyped paean to Remus' eyes and sweet nature. Just my .02.
Fun to disagree! I will bandage my limbs as best I can and await your next assault.
| sistermagpie @ September 1 2003, 08:37:56 UTC |
But let me be quiet a minute and just ask you -- what truth about Sirius' character do you feel is revealed by his decision to sleep with Lucius?
That he has these impulses to push people away and play an ugly person unworthy of/not destined for love. Though I wouldn't give myself so much credit as to say this confirmed what I knew about him. It was just that these past months with the S/R wedding I just never quite trusted Sirius. When you read NRaged you sometimes find it influencing your thoughts and since the general consensus was that this was all very romantic I sometimes thought, "Does the player mean to give me this vague feeling that Sirius is a kind of unhealthy person and everybody might be ignoring this at their own peril?" and with this I thought yes, it was deliberate.
You felt my use of the terms "lazy and selfish" was inadequate, so perhaps I should say, "lazy" about pulling himself together, evasive about confronting the actual determinants of his situation, which can be quite an effective way of letting your world collapse around you through sheer neglect of what sustains it.
I guess I would go with that. My problem with lazy was just that I think Sirius is deciding what to do here, not just not making the effort. In his own weird way, it's Sirius who has been in control of this breakup. He flirted with Lucius, he immediately posted he wasn't apologetic. He had some impulses to try to make things right by bringing soup etc., but got angry again when that didn't make it better. Then he made the decision to go off and sleep with Lucius.
If Sirius always posts about himself, and Remus always posts about his company, that difference would seem to reflect a persistent difference of character even if both patterns are mere "posting styles."
Oh, I definitely agree. Posting style is one of the most important character clues we have! But it also effects how we react to everyone. Remus draws you in, Sirius pushes you away, just like in life. Nobody is giving you the objective story. That's why I love people starting to get more skeptical of Remus' posts. Not because I think people shouldn't trust him in general but because I think it's always good to remember that when any character types he's attempting to make an impression on the audience (the other NA characters, not NRaged).
Somewhere else I think I said that Remus' posts about his life sometimes make me feel like he's trying to take a snapshot and appreciate things because they will fade. Like he's saying, "This is real. I have this wonderful boy in my life. I am happy in this moment." But I don't think posting about onesself is necessarily a sign of narcissism, only because this is a journal and people use their journals for different things. Sirius may not feel comfortable talking about other people. It's like when I said if I were Harry Remus' posts would make me uncomfortable. I didn't mean that as a slam on Remus, just a point about myself. Also, this is one place I think Sirius' past life probably does play a part. He's a loner and spent a big chunk of his life in complete solitary confinement. This may have made this particular man used to thinking about himself in isolation. He does notice other people, like when he posts that Harry doesn't seem to want to be surfing, but it's from a distance, almost clinical. I think there's a reason Sirius' posts are so brutally isolated.
I don't think it's at all the same as Sirius' labored, stereotyped paean to Remus' eyes and sweet nature. Just my .02.
Oh, neither do I. I think this is logical for their characters. Remus is very sophisticated emotionally and socially, he's very comfortable with feelings. Sirius is completely inept in this area and uncomfortable with it. I think more than anything that post says that Sirius is not about to tell anyone how he fell in love with Remus. Perhaps he doesn't even know.
Hands over more bandages...;-)
| sistermagpie @ September 1 2003, 10:02:54 UTC |
that you do fault Remus for going into the marriage with unreasonable expectations, with an implicit agenda to reform Remus, or at least an over-optimistic sense that he was reformable.
It's not that I fault him for it. There's nothing inherently hurtful in keeping Sirius' better points in the front of his mind and believe that's his true self. Remus just wants things to work out the way he thinks they can. With another husband this would be no problem and could be something that he adored about Remus. Unfortunately he happened to marry somebody who maybe had negative reactions to this. Sirius hasn't been able to understand (or admit he understands) what he did wrong, but I suspect Remus also hasn't been able to understand what Sirius was feeling either. I don't mean to say it's Remus' fault that Sirius was unhappy, but Sirius' unhappiness is still valid. He was unhappy for whatever reason, so all was not rosy in the marriage. I wouldn't blame any particular person for it.
Is this behavior something Remus could or should have reasonably anticipated, based on Sirius' past conduct?
I'd have to say: yes. This isn't the first time Lucius has been involved in trying to hurt Harry, nor is it the first time Sirius flirted with him. I anticipated it as soon as Lucius appeared at the party--how could I not, given how the last few parties have gone?
I completely see all your points about how this is different from Remus' pov, although to be honest I do think the infidelity issue is still a sore spot because iirc that night marked the birth of Snape/Remus speculation. But anyway, I completely concede why Remus sees this time as different. But this perhaps just shows Remus never really understand what Sirius was doing in flirting with Lucius, if he thought it would stop with the attack. I'd love to know how Remus thinks Sirius views the flirting and how Sirius does.
But the latest fight over Lucius has very different stakes. I won't rehash all the obvious reasons. But I found one remark of Sirius' -- "I waited a month to come home to this?" -- just shockingly brutal and self regarding. It had the brittle nastiness, the self-absorbtion, the irrational sense of whinging entitlement, the complete obliviousness to other people's experience and feelings, that we associate with -- yes -- the worst kind of narcissism. It was a really hateful and destructive comment.
That's interesting because that really didn't bother me at all. It was definitely whinging, but I could imagine where Sirius was coming from, though wasn't his line, "I rushed home for this?" rather than "I waited a month?" It was Remus who was waiting, and we were waiting with him. We're naturally biased towards Remus here because we were in his pov. Sirius was mostly absent. Perhaps if we'd been with Sirius on his journey we'd have felt more of his frustration and more of an idea of where he was when he returned. As it was we were all about Remus' and Harry's expectations. Sirius came off as completely callous from that pov. But I can also imagine how things might be from Sirius' pov where he was very justified in being angry at Remus.
But I can see Remus looking at Sirius here, and thinking, defensibly -- this is new, he's sunk to a depth I didn't ever expect from him.
Or that he's seeing for the first time just what depths he's sunk in. But yes, I think this is not only what Remus felt but what Sirius intended to some extent. We all know he does care about Harry and he's not an idiot. It's not like Remus hasn't been clear. I have no idea why he took the position he did but I felt like he gave Remus no choice but to leave him. Not since Puck on MTV's The Real World has a person so forced others to vote him out of the house.:-)
| black_dog @ September 1 2003, 16:07:43 UTC |
Well, we've hashed this out pretty thoroughly! Let me try to write up a summary statement of where we agree, where you've converted me, and where we still don't see eye to eye, and then I will leave you the last word . . . on this thread, at least! I will start, as is always more fun, with our differences.
We do, I think, have a fundamentally different take on the dynamics of the marriage. It's obvious that the marriage was a failure, that Remus was objectively disappointed in his hopes. But in evaluating Remus' character, I find myself insisting on the difference between a bad judgment and a defensible judgment that is proven wrong by circumstances. The only alternative to allowing this distinction is to assume that all decisions are validated or condemned by their consequences. This strikes me as an unfair and inhumane rule for decisions about how to live, where there is always incomplete information and an element of faith or hope in the outcome.
I do think that Remus did his "due diligence" on Sirius and understood the risks of the marriage. I found Remus' statement on Vertiaserum night, with due allowance for Remus-speak, to be eloquent and moving and right on the point.
I guess I think you have set up a model of their marriage that is overly deterministic -- one in which Remus went into things with an overt intention to raise the expectations for Sirius' behavior, to pressure or try to reform him; that he did this to such an extent that Sirius felt it, felt constrained by it, and resented it; and that this chafing on Sirius' part itself contributed to the end of the marriage. I think some of your comments suggest that Sirius may even have deliberately brought the marriage down because of a combination of this chafing and his determination to prove himself unloveable.
What's interesting about this is that I do find it one plausible extrapolation of how the marriage might have played out, based on their characters. The problem is, I don't see any evidence that this dynamic actually happened. It tends to explain Sirius' actions in terms of a motivation within the marriage. Working backwards from the failure, you infer that Sirius felt pressure, then in turn that Remus was consciously or unconsciously applying that pressure, and finally that Remus should never have gone into the marriage because, with his eternal optimism, he was doomed to create precisely this dynamic. I honestly think that's terribly unfair to Remus, who I don't think has done any such thing. I don't see any significant evidence of nagging, or tension, or restlessness prior to the final break. I will definitely reread the posts about their marriage with your critique in mind, and perhaps attempt to discount Remus' reports a bit and look for signs of concealed tension, or hesitation or unhappiness in Sirius' posts. It will be fascinating if the pieces fit with your theory; I just don't feel it yet.
| black_dog @ September 1 2003, 16:11:07 UTC |
[continued]
One advantage of your theory that I will concede is that it provides a coherent motivation for Sirius' actions, explaining his flirtation with Lucius as a messy but very Sirius-like way to exit the marriage. I definitely feel your take on Sirius, with his self-destructiveness and determination to prove that he is unloveable, has more depth than mine here. It is a more rounded picture and it explains more about his behavior. But again, is it strongly supported or is it just a plausible hypothesis? It may be more appropriate to avoid explanation, to insist on the puzzles, until there is more evidence.
You've sold me on the notion that Sirius' restlessness, his discomfort with and compulsion to destroy any established routine of life, is a central thing to explain about his personality. But we're looking for the explanation of that restlessness in slightly different places. Your take is that it is centered on self-esteem issues and a feeling that he can never be loveable. Again I say, "Not proven." And although I'm less confident in my own theory than you are in yours, to me the issue feels like, smells like, something else.
What it feels like to me is a more narcissistic discontent with a life that isn't "good enough." If I were speculating my way into Sirius' head, I would guess that he feels terribly cheated by Azkaban, and continues to indulge in juvenile fantasies of what an ideal life might have been like, and that his restlessness comes from a sense that reality doesn't measure up. From this discontent there follows the whole pattern of resentment and selfish entitlement, the refusal to take other people entirely seriously, the negligent failure to engage responsibly with the forces that are actually shaping his day to day life. But I admit this is only a hunch, a vibe, I don't have enough evidence to prove it.
We do agree, I think, that Sirius is a moral agent -- that despite his problems, he is free enough, and competent enough, that he ought to be able to solve his own problems. I think this is one reason his character sparks such intense feelings. He doesn't feel like a victim, he feels like someone who is making vicious and self-defeating choices because of a warped sense of what's OK and what's not OK. And the fact that he is a free agent makes him fascinating, because you can watch the calculations in his head, and howl when he makes a bad choice and continue to hope that he'll make better ones.
I'll go shares with you on the bandages!
| sistermagpie @ September 1 2003, 17:10:07 UTC |
Hee--Yes, I will add my last word on this thread because I can't help myself but rest assured I don't consider it really the "last word" on the characters!
Working backwards from the failure, you infer that Sirius felt pressure, then in turn that Remus was consciously or unconsciously applying that pressure, and finally that Remus should never have gone into the marriage because, with his eternal optimism, he was doomed to create precisely this dynamic. I honestly think that's terribly unfair to Remus, who I don't think has done any such thing. I don't see any significant evidence of nagging, or tension, or restlessness prior to the final break.
I don't see Remus doing any of these things either. That Sirius might feel something doesn't mean that Remus is actually doing it. I don't think Remus ever put on pressure or nagged in the way you're describing here. I think Remus simply lived their life the way he thought it was. If Sirius felt constrained--and I have no idea how he felt--it wouldn't necessarily be because Remus was constraining him. It's not that I think Remus is responsible for the marriage breaking up at all or that he was set up for failure from the beginning by any means. I'm just saying that well, maybe they weren't right for each other rather than saying they were perfect and Sirius screwed it up single-handedly.
Really, I don't have any clear idea how the marriage dynamic worked. When I try to put myself into Sirius' shoes on the night of the party I can imagine possible scenarios where Sirius could feel resentful--but they're all just conjecture. For instance: Sirius has just gotten back after a month of presumably working for the Order. So he comes home, maybe feels annoyed at the party or whatever. Many WW1 soldiers described feeling resentful of people on the homefront and Sirius may have felt some of that. He flirts with LM. Who knows why? It's not unheard of for cops to be drawn to criminals and vice versa. For whatever reason he has this impulse to flirt with Lucius. He's then accused of showing he doesn't care about Harry's welfare and acting like a family traitor. Perhaps--and this is a big perhaps because I have no idea--but perhaps Sirius was furious that someone who'd been at home for a month while he was "in action" against Voldemort would accuse him of being disloyal to their side? I'm not saying this is what happened at all, but until I know exactly how Sirius felt I can't assume he was just being a brat. (And even if he was a brat I'd want to know specifically what kind!) It's very possible Sirius sees nothing wrong with flirting or sleeping with DEs when one also actively works to destory them. Who knows? I have no evidence whatsoever for this theory, of course.:-)
I don't think Sirius' actions were intended to end the marriage, like this was his plan to get out. More likely he just lashed out in a way that was immediately satisfactory, got a harsh response, and lashed out again. I don't think he had a plan here to get out of the marriage. It could just be that in each confrontation he chose the destructive action and that inevitably led up to the marriage breakdown.
| acidcandy @ August 31 2003, 02:35:59 UTC |
Yeah, for real. ITA. The Atta boy thing seriously creeps me out.
(parent)| therealycats @ August 30 2003, 20:27:10 UTC |
I am utterly disgusted by seeing just how Remus titled that entry. I didn't look at it until the post up there. That is disgusting. Childish. Incredibly immature. And I can't stand Remus right now. Bastard.
Again, Sirius tried to reconcile with Remus by apologizing but he didn't know why he was apologizing. Honestly, don't you think that if he *had* slept with Lucius that he would know why an apology were in order?! I know it's more than that. It's much more than that. But for God's sake. Remus' behavior at the moment ought to prove to Harry that in Remus' eyes, he's "won" this "custody" battle, if you will. I think that title for the memory just proves that a lot of this has been a big ploy on his part to make Harry notice him and to say that he loves him more than Sirius does (which I don't think is at all true. Nor do I think he loves him any less than Sirius. But I digress.). It's repulsive. Remus is an asshole for titling it as such, I think. I've got a soft spot for Sirius and I know it's showing. But I don't care. Even if I didn't I would feel like that about the way Remus is acting. It's sickening. *hisses*
Note to the Harry's, Remus's, and Sirius's players: you're wonderful. All of you. Otherwise none of us would be having these reactions. But...yeah. Waaaaaaaaaaaaah! :'(
| acidcandy @ August 31 2003, 02:38:20 UTC |
Go Sirius! He may be childish and he may do stupid things unknowingly but he will never pat Harry on the back and say "Nice one!" if Harry spits in Remus' face.
(parent)| eponis @ August 31 2003, 03:07:08 UTC |
I agree that the "Atta boy!" was rather immature (though that could also be said of a number of Sirius's comments). You can read it as Remus being proud of Harry standing up for himself, though, not as a specific attack on Sirius. Nevertheless, it clearly is a snub.
Let's be honest here, though. What Remus did was say something rather childish to a man who had caused him a good deal of pain. What Sirius did, though, was not just "stupid things unknowingly." I mean, my God. Before and after, Sirius flirts repeatedly with Lucius, a man who repeatedly tried to kill Harry! We're not just talking friendship, though friendship with such an evil man would be bad enough. We're talking about frequent sexual innuendo, followed by actually sleeping with the guy only a couple of weeks after Remus left the house!
How can you compare that kind of unfaithful, reckless behavior with one upset taunt?
(sorry about the ranting - it just really bothers me for Sirius's repeated choices to be trivialized in that way)
| canisetlupus @ August 31 2003, 11:10:55 UTC |
I don't think anyone here is trivializing Sirius' actions... Some of us have said there might be a reason we ignore, but all of us (as far as I can remember) have clearly said that what Sirius did was *wrong*. Period.
The point here is that Remus is playing the "good parent" role. He takes Harry to concerts and shares his cigarretes with him. Nice. But in his need for self assurance, keeping Harry by his side and, why not, being the victim in the situation, he is *allowing* and *encouraging* Harry to spit not only on the bad things Sirius has done, but in the good things he has done for him —which, in my opinion, are more important than concerts and cigarretes, like standing up for him while the boy he's in love him is outing him.
Face it: humans have virtues and flaws. Sirius has tremendous flaws, but he has also had tremendous virtues, and the often recipient of such virtues has been Harry.
Harry has the right to be angry. He has the right to be selfish. It is debatable if he has the right to say a big "Fuck you" to the one that has been like a father for him (you think he has, I don't).
But Remus doesn't have the right to turn them into enemies, no matter how hurt he is. It would be more classy for him to stay out of the way and let them work things out, for better or worse.
|
Anonymous @ August 31 2003, 02:57:53 UTC |
That "Atta boy" really makes me nauseous, this is the real low point. So what will be next? It's pretty awful seeing love turn into something like this.
I feel a kind of relief that Lupin is no longer Sirius' spouse.
| eponis @ August 31 2003, 03:14:05 UTC |
No. Forgive my profanity, but the real low point was when Sirius fucked the Death Eater who had tried to murder his godson just three months ago.
I agree - it is awful seeing love turn into something like this. What was a beautiful relationship has turned into a battle of self-pity and bickering, interspersed with cold attempts at civility. Both sides have been hurt, and both sides have lashed back in the ways that they know best. To compare Lupin's bitterness to Sirius's repeated irresponsibility, though, is to compare the outpouring of pain to the initial cause of that pain.
| therealycats @ August 31 2003, 06:43:30 UTC |
Hmmm...when's the next full moon? Who wants to go on a werewolf hunt? *fumes*
(parent)| eponis @ August 31 2003, 03:27:07 UTC |
Are you saying that Sirius didn't sleep with Lucius? What else do you think happened to make Narcissa and Lupin so upset, Sirius so guilty, and Harry so angry?
Yes, I absolutely agree that the title to that memory was uncalled-for and really quite childish. I don't see how it "proves" that it was all a ploy, though. It sounds like he's proud of Harry for standing up to Sirius, yes. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have a good reason for that pride, though. Harry is asserting himself as an individual and a man; he did get his own flat, after all, rather than just moving back in with Remus. Moreover, he's evaluating a difficult situation and making his own decisions about it. (I have a hard time imagining, based on his journal entries, that Lupin would actually be saying bad things about Sirius behind his back; remember, for example, when Sirius asked Remus how Harry knew about Lucius, and Remus replied "he can read," implying that he hadn't told Harry himself.) There are plenty of things for Lupin to be genuinely proud of. Certainly there's bitterness there, too, but this is a guy who's been hurt immensely and has shown remarkable restraint in saying negative words to Sirius (in public, anyway).
In the last few days, I've been rereading old posts of Sirius and Remus. To me, what is "repulsive" and "sickening" is just how often Sirius blatantly flirts with Lucius, often despite Remus begging him not to talk to this guy. I mean, Remus has put up with months of watching his spouse exchange frequent sexual innuendo with a Death Eater. How can one bitter comment compare with something like that?
| therealycats @ August 31 2003, 06:40:18 UTC |
What I'm saying is that Sirius apologized to Remus, trying to make up, but he didn't know what he was apologizing for. If he HAD slept with Lucius on this most recent ocassion then I think he would know damn well what he was apologizing for. Instead he was confused and simply trying to make everything alright again.
I'm pretty new. I just started reading in June or July. I refuse to go back and read years' worth of posts on two communities and 48 journals so I can keep up. I don't do that. I have neither the time nor the energy for it. I'm informed of things that have happened in the RPG previously by other members.
There is a HUGE difference between flirting with someone and actually having sex with them. That doesn't mean he should have been flirting or even speaking with Lucius to begin with and it doesn't make any of that right, but that's a pretty big leap and no matter what the history that's a pretty shoddy reason to get a divorce.
Again, Sirius didn't know what he'd done wrong. If he cheated on his husband I think it would be glaringly obvious to him; as it is it seems he's guilty of using his vocal chords. Should he be all buddy-buddy with Lucius? One wouldn't think so. But if Sirius doesn't realize that that's wrong or that it's hurting those he loves, then Remus, instead of acting like Laura Petrie and crying about things confusing his husband even more should sit him down and force him to understand what the problem is. I'm sure by now he does, but if things had been handled more maturely earlier then none of this mess would be as it is now.
As for Harry. He's upset. I understand that. But I still think he's bought into Remus' act, whether it was a conscious one on Remus' part or not. I'm a child of divorce. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I've gone through exactly what Harry's been put through recently in this whole tug-of-war bit, and it disgusts me when people fall for it. It disgusts me that he's fallen for it, and the fact that Remus continues to fuel the fire by commending Harry for telling his godfather to essentially get out of his life is just disgusting. Sirius doesn't deserve that, he doesn't deserve for Remus to go into his posts and refer him to other people's posts just to rub things in his face, and I though Remus was a hell of a lot better than that. Instead this whole thing has proven him to be one massive son of a bitch.
| canisetlupus @ August 31 2003, 11:20:07 UTC |
Completely agreed.
I won't be defending or justifying Sirius. What he did was *wrong*, even if he didn't realize it.
But what Remus has done is *worse*.
Besides, it's not as if Sirius is the bastard and Remus is the victim. Both have good and bad things. Of course, it is easier to have a villain and a hero when debating a broken relationship, but Sirius is not a villain nor a bastard. And, with this, Remus has proven that he is no hero.
| therealycats @ August 31 2003, 11:24:02 UTC |
THANK YOU! :)
Incidentally, this RPG has made me have to force myself to remember that this Lupin is not canon Lupin and so I must not hold things against him or David Thewlis. As for Lupin's player, VERY well done in evoking such emotions from all of us, whichever side of this we poor fangirls (or boys) fall on. Although that may just go to prove how insane we all are ;)
I'm still mad at Lupin though. *pouts*
|
Anonymous @ August 31 2003, 15:21:22 UTC |
And, with this, Remus has proven that he is no hero.
fo real.
|
Anonymous @ August 31 2003, 13:19:15 UTC |
Continued from other comment, because LJ is dumb.
Someone said elsewhere in this thread or the other one that it's attitudes like this that explain how people can stay in abusive relationships. "Oh, he didn't mean it!" So that makes it okay? So that means Remus should just roll over and let Sirius keep doing what he's doing, because he doesn't mean it? Does it mean that Harry shouldn't be angry that Sirius is sleeping with the enemy, because he can't help himself? It means they should bow and scrape and beg Sirius's forgiveness for being so angry that he betrayed them, and his wedding vows, because he didn't mean to hurt anybody? What the hell kind of logic is that?
You screw up, you pay for it, and no one - no one - should have to put up with abuse like that, and it is abuse. It's emotional and psychological abuse. Harry and Remus had their trust and their love violated. Sirius may have had good intentions - and he did, he obviously loves Harry and Remus, I would not doubt that for a second - but that just makes it worse, that he would do such kind things for them and then turn around and hurt them with something that he has been told, again and again, is hurtful. Whether it was intentional or not is not the issue. The issue is that this is not the first time, but for Remus and Harry it is the last time, and I applaud them both for having the strength and will to actually show Sirius the consequences of his selfish actions. It's tough love, but if anything is going to get through to Sirius, this will.
/end rant
| therealycats @ August 31 2003, 13:50:54 UTC |
My opinion of Remus is based on his incredible childishness the past few weeks. I generally like Lupin. Right now I don't. Do I think he's a bastard? Hell yes. Will I say so? You bet. Do I care if you don't like it? No, not really. I'm by no means trying to pick a fight here but for you to come in and belittle my opinions on a matter simply because I haven't been following the game for years is utterly ridiculous. I know what I've read the past few of months. Has Sirius come out and said that he had sex with Lucius recently? Because if he has then direct me to the post. Narcissa and Lucius' relationship is entirely different from Remus and Sirius'. They are four different people, two different couples, and I certainly wouldn't blame Narcissa for leaving Lucius. She has every right to do so. He treats her like a pile of feces, and he knows damn well he does it. Replying in posts that she took a vow to obey him and the like...yes she DOES need to get out of that relationship.
You can think whataever you like about Lucius and Sirius and so can everyone else; that includes myself. Lucius is a classic troublemaker. He does things purposely at the expense of others for his own amusement. Sirius on the other hand has acted like someone who is utterly clueless about anything and everything that goes on around him. He does (or did) things without realizing the consequences of his actions and the way they affected those closest to him, and now he's paying for it. And to add insult to injury, his (former) lover is throwing the fact that his own godson hates him in his face. Remus is happy. Good for Remus. Making long posts describing his own happiness in terms of Harry, however truthful they may be, congratulating Harry for being hateful to Sirius, and making saracastic remarks in Sirius' journal, however, is entirely uncalled for and seems to taunt Sirius with it.
|
Anonymous @ August 31 2003, 16:37:51 UTC |
Making long posts describing his own happiness in terms of Harry, however truthful they may be, congratulating Harry for being hateful to Sirius, and making saracastic remarks in Sirius' journal, however, is entirely uncalled for
Exactly.
| sistermagpie @ August 31 2003, 19:06:57 UTC |
Yeah, that's the way I can't help but feel about it. I don't hate Remus for what he's doing--I think his behavior here is very human, but this is the kind of thing that can easily come back and bite one on the ass in the end. If Remus wants to have a super special father/son relationship with Harry I don't think spite is the best foundation. The fact that Sirius could be booted out so completely and so quickly just underlines, to me, how tenuous the bonds here really are. black_dog described them as allying against Sirius and to me that's just what this is: an alliance. Alliances shift.
| eponis @ August 31 2003, 14:07:59 UTC |
::WILD APPLAUSE::
Thank you for saying this better than I could.
::will leave it at that::
| saffronlie @ August 31 2003, 00:33:38 UTC |
How can Harry just give up on Sirius like this? And hurt him so intentionally? And Remus back it up? I've never seen Harry or Remus as vindictive before, but they certainly seem so with these developments. I know Sirius hurt them, a lot, but he didn't do it on purpose, and that's the difference to me here. Sirius didn't feel he was doing wrong, but when Remus told him he thought it was wrong, Sirius did his best to rectify it in the only ways he knew how. He did his best, but now Harry and Remus won't let it go, and they are knowingly hurting him. And *that* is just not Quidditch.
(parent)| eponis @ August 31 2003, 03:40:42 UTC |
"He didn't do it on purpose"?
A drunken fling is, perhaps, "not on purpose."
A comment that could be misinterpreted is, perhaps, "not on purpose."
Engaging in behavior that is many, many times pointed out to you - if you read through the spring's posts, over and over you see the same pattern of "Lucius approaches Sirius, Sirius flirts blatantly with him, Remus is really hurt, Sirius apologizes and feels guilty" - is on purpose.
I do feel sorry for Sirius, because you're right, he has tried to rectify this in the only ways he knows how. However, this is not just a one-time, unintentional mistake. This is a repeated pattern of behavior, and Remus has been accepting it and forgiving it for many months. I don't blame him for finally doing something.
You're right, too: as much as Harry and Remus are in pain, that doesn't justify them hurting him intentionally in return. While I can't help applauding Harry's message as a reminder of his independence, Remus was acting poorly to add to the insult. Nevertheless, while hurting Sirius can't be justified, simply forgiving Sirius again would be one of the worst things that could happen to him. For far too long, Remus has sent him messages that simply apologizing can excuse repeated patterns of wrong behavior. If they're ever to have a long-term relationship, Sirius has to learn that his behavior has real consequences.
| saffronlie @ August 31 2003, 05:15:22 UTC |
I know. I just feel that Sirius didn't set out to hurt anyone. He certainly did hurt people, but he didn't mean to, and while that's no justification, it goes a little way towards explaining things. You're absolutely right on the pattern, Sirius still has to learn, but it looks like no one has the patience to teach him. No one can blame Remus for giving up, but it still makes me sad. Sirius still tried, and the sheer vindictiveness of Remus here floors me.
(parent)| mira_nevlome @ September 1 2003, 17:15:56 UTC |
I just feel that Sirius didn't set out to hurt anyone. He certainly did hurt people, but he didn't mean to, and while that's no justification, it goes a little way towards explaining things.
How exactly does that explain things? Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what it is you're trying to say, so help me out. :)
I don't see how Sirius could have done anything but hurt Harry and Remus with his actions. Sirius knows exactly what Lucius is and who he works for. Knowing what he knows, Sirius made the decision to get involved with Lucius. I see that as a total betrayal to both Harry and Remus, and while not nice, I believe that their actions are justified. I don't however see how Sirius is going to be able to justify his!
But then again, for all I know, the players will pull something that will flabber the gast out of me and all will be well, or something like that! *LOL*
| windtear @ August 31 2003, 02:20:43 UTC |
Um, maybe I just don't get it - but given that that's an old post (from the previous year) I don't know how that applies to the current situation.
Would someone please enlighten me?
| quixotic_sense @ August 31 2003, 02:53:41 UTC |
Look at the date of Harry's comment. Also, isn't Lucius part of the reason why Sirius and Remus broke up? ^^
(parent)| cienna @ August 31 2003, 04:38:08 UTC |
Harry posted on an old entry so that only Sirius would notice it. I think the reason he picked that entry is because Sirius is being so hypocritical. (Back then he stood up to Lucius, now he's fooling around with him.)
(parent) |
jacay @ August 31 2003, 10:55:38 UTC |
I haven't been following NA for too long, so maybe I've missed something. But isn't it a little strange that Sirius, who loves his godson so much, would, for seemingly no reason at all, sleep with someone like Lucius?
I mean, maybe there was a reason he did it. And maybe he's not the only who has wronged. We've already decided we're not getting the whole story here, correct?
And about that 'Atta boy thing. I think Remus was doing that simply to say that Harry's right--you were different then, and now you suck, and we want you to go back to the way you were. Back before Lucius.
Maybe Remus said 'Atta boy because he wants to tell Sirius that he doesn't like the way things are going, and you need to change, and if you really love us, you need to change.
I know all of these things have probably already been said, and I know I'm probably missing something huge, but I had to say it.
|
intern_alley @ August 31 2003, 16:23:09 UTC |
Just so you guys know, I did just delete a handful of comments up there (after checking with eponis), namely a flamey comment and its replies. There's no reason this should turn into a flamewar. Please just respect each other's opinions. I know that some of you are very angry at Sirius and that some of you are very angry at Remus. No one is right and no one is wrong about how they feel towards a certain character. Please don't yell at anyone for thinking Sirius is wrong because you disagree, and the same goes for Remus.
Thanks, and sorry about the deleting.
- an NA mod