silveryouko @ June 9 2004, 06:18:11 UTC

Oh wow, I hope you're right on all counts. Especially about Remus and Severus...They do seem to have worked things out. Hopefully Remus will stop being a little sniping bitch.

laurac0re @ June 9 2004, 06:19:35 UTC

the second point could also be about Mrs. Weasley and Percy and Penelope's wedding

*cough* although hopefully it will involve harry and draco and 'i love you'*cough*

monkiedude @ June 9 2004, 06:22:37 UTC

Ah, fark, you're right. That does fit much better.

portkey @ June 9 2004, 06:20:22 UTC

The third being about Remus and Severus was my thought, as well.

anatidae @ June 9 2004, 07:21:01 UTC

Alternatively, maybe he's talking about Lavender?

jiffy_spiffy @ June 9 2004, 09:22:10 UTC

I agree, I don't think Remus found out any unpleasant truth from Snape, did he? On the contrary, he seemed quite pleased.

hezzabeth @ June 9 2004, 09:51:49 UTC

I dont think the second one was about Percys wedding, it was about some one hearing "the truth" not about hearing about a wedding.
Besides the Weasley wedding I like to think is way to obvious.
The third one I'm guessing is about Lavy.

vassilissa @ June 9 2004, 10:00:58 UTC

The third one I'm guessing is about Lavy.

Or maybe Parvati. I mean, about Lavender, but from Parvati's side. Because I thought she was closer friends with Seamus than Lav was. Parvati's finding out pretty brutally that she's grown and changed and Lavender hasn't.

hezzabeth @ June 9 2004, 10:02:02 UTC

Yes your right, that does fit in better and that sort of thing can be rather difficult.

kievstar @ June 9 2004, 10:58:41 UTC

My first thoughts were the following: 1) telling Charlie about Dean
2) Percy hearing that he's in fact not evil
3) Remus talking to Snape

Anonymous @ June 9 2004, 12:58:37 UTC Screened Comment?

Sorry, but could anyone tell me about this 'screened comment', because I've been wondering where exactly it was and written in what context. Sorry if it's obvious, but I really would be grateful to know. Thanks!

Ellie.

polina_slosvau @ June 9 2004, 13:52:12 UTC Re: Screened Comment?

Look here! :)

Anonymous @ June 9 2004, 16:53:02 UTC Re: Screened Comment?

Will we ever find out what that was, do you think?

Anonymous @ June 9 2004, 18:26:22 UTC Oh...

Thank you so very much! I've been wondering about that for ages and ooh! It was so very worth it... Thanks,

Ellie.

saturninesprite @ June 9 2004, 14:00:51 UTC

i have a feeling the third one is about remus (though parvati fits, too), but it might not refer to what he found out from snape.

what about from narcissa? ....unpleasant truth, but it's better to know... she obviously told him something when they met (dueled) in knockturn alley. it might also be why he seemed to know what percy was talking about as far as who the ministry suspects for pettigrew's escape...

sistermagpie @ June 9 2004, 20:10:58 UTC

I haven't even been able to hazard a guess...the first part did seem like it was about him and Dean, and he says Dean isn't one of the someones, so it does seem like it was to Charlie about Dean. Or not.:)

The second one could be something we know, like Lavender needing to hear that she couldn't room with Parvati. Though that's not something she'd ever want to hear. It could also refer to Percy's not being evil being made public. I think the most clear-cut thing could be Molly hearing about Percy's wedding in the last way she would have chosen. So maybe he's saying, "Hey, isn't it too good of news to worry about how you were told?"

I guess the third one could be Lupin getting a truth from Snape, mostly because Seamus loves him dearly and he seems like somebody it would make sense for him to ask these questions of (isn't it better? Do you feel better knowing?). That seems like the kind of way Seamus and Lupin would deal with each other.

I was wary of jumping to any conclusions about love and ps and jh, but they were the first people I thought of when Seamus referred to "that all might turn out alright in the end, barring the obvious interference." It did sound like something was revealed in that relationship, something some people might be too shocked to believe is true. The obvious interference I figured was Lucius.

Of course, this doesn't have to mean I love you. ps made a point of not being a liar regarding the screened comment, and then later. But perhaps this had more to do with whatever happened with Voldemort because that would go further to making it seem like H/D might not be a disaster than a declaration of emotion, imo.

black_dog @ June 10 2004, 02:38:33 UTC

Of the three mysterious cases Seamus brings up, I think the first is very likely to be Seamus saying at least formally in Charlie's presence that he really loves Dean. The main evidence is that Seamus was the active agent, that he describes the situation as "odd," and that Dean is so wildly happy about it. I can't imagine Dean having such a strong reaction if it were something else.

The other two cases both involve hearing unwelcome or untimely truths. "Not the way they wanted to hear it" and "not what they wanted to hear." I'm going to resist guessing cases on the strength of Dean's remark that Seamus is referring to at least three different someones, with various unreferred to but hinted at other someones in there as well. I think that comment supports the case for not worrying about which example fits best, but thinking instead about the general applicability of the lesson -- that truth is better than fantasy even if it is hard to deal with. Harry, Draco, Remus, Narcissa, Sirius, Snape, Lavender, Percy, Ernie, Hermione, Sinistra, Pansy . . . who doesn't that lesson apply to, lately? And to the extent that it applies, the current craze for "admitting things" is a good thing.

I was wary of jumping to any conclusions about love and ps and jh

I'm trying to restrain my h/d reflex, too. I guess what I can't get over is Seamus' use of the word "shocked" to describe the certain things admitted by certain someones. The only developments I can think of that would support such a strong word are Remus' reconciliation with Narcissa and Harry's reconciliation with Draco. Lots of other stuff is gossipworthy, but what else would be "shocking?" And a couple of things make me lean toward the Remus/Narcissa reconciliation, rather than a ps/jh romance. One thing is the offhand contemptuous way Seamus refers to ps in his main comment -- "a sleep-deprived idiot." That seems inconsistent with the sympathy and well-wishing he and Dean both express in the comments.

Seamus in particular doesn't want to put "it" at risk by drawing attention from "the interference." "We all will have to do something about that particular interference, in the end, won't we?" -- That definitely sounds like Lucius, or Voldemort. I suppose it could apply equally to PS or to Narcissa; each of them has similar limits on their freedom of action. But Seamus' remark feels more political than not. It just feels like Seamus and Dean would feel more spontaneously protective of Narcissa changing sides, would feel "all of us" were implicated in that, more than they would about a ps/jh romance.

Another bit of evidence is just the extent to which Remus has seemed rattled lately. He's restless and uneasy, complains to Snape about his lack of peace of mind, teases Harry affectionately but with unusual roughness, I think. This has been the case since his conversation/reconciliation with Narcissa, where he presumably learned something that spun him around. Narcissa and Severus are snapping at each other a bit, too, and Severus seems unusually introspective. Something is up here.

But what would be the "unwelcome" or "badly timed" truth that Narcissa revealed to Remus? Maybe just the humiliation of realizing how badly he misread her? Maybe the revelation that Lucius really is on the good guys' side and they have to be nice to him? Maybe that Voldemort is ready to move before they're quite ready and they are likely to suffer losses and have to make sacrifices? I'm just spinning randomly, here. Any thoughts?

[continued . . .]

black_dog @ June 10 2004, 02:39:19 UTC

[. . . continued]

How would the idea of an unwelcome or badly timed truth apply to jh and ps? I was thinking, during some of PS' sleep-deprived ramblings, that Harry might actually be participating under MB's name. A player shot that down, but there was an interesting passage that, even if it really was Millicent, might have reflected PS talking to MB in her TBWL persona -- PS declares "I've missed you" and MB/TBWL offers friendship but explicitly backs away from a romantic relationship, apologizes for even proposing one. So, maybe the "hard truth" here is that PS and JH can be friends, want to be friends, but have finally decided they don't want more than that.

It only just occurred to me that the sleep duel, as well as being silly and over-the-top, was an extraordinary thing for Draco to do because he's usually so frightened of being out of control, of drunkenness, etc. For him to deliberately seek out an experience like that, he must have been desperately eager to step outside of his defenses, either to muster the courage for an important conversation or even (bear with me, here) to discover his own authentic feelings. I'd love to know what he was looking for, and whether he got it.

OK, this was one of those posts that make a lot of noise but don't lead to any clear conclusions. Still, I sort of felt a need to get some of those things down to see if they form any kind of pattern. Are you just laughing in derision, now, or do you think there's something to this?

sistermagpie @ June 10 2004, 03:03:10 UTC

I'm the last person to laugh in derision!

The thing about Remus/Narcissa, for me, is that it doesn't seem like that would be something Seamus or Dean would know. If it had to do with DE stuff, wouldn't it would be dangerous for them to know? I mean, they're adults and I know the kids are almost ready to leave school but it seems rather odd for Seamus and Dean to be talking about two adults that way. If Narcissa "switched sides" (whatever that means!) it seems like there'd be even less reason for Remus to be spreading it around with the kids and for them to be discussing it that way. I don't get the impression Seamus has much worried about Remus' relationship with Narcissa, but he's always commented on the H/D.

Also, I didn't think Seamus use of "sleep-deprived idiot" had to be angry. Given what Draco did before, I can see it being kind of grudgingly acceptance. If Draco did do something positive on the Harry front then I can imagine why Seamus would feel he had earned an acknowledgement. Seamus has always been teasing with ps, though, and given how low ps sank I would think he'd feel fine about being more blunt in his teasing. Draco pretty much was a sleep-deprived idiot. "Idiot" wouldn't even have to refer to him in general--he was an idiot for the duel.

It only just occurred to me that the sleep duel, as well as being silly and over-the-top, was an extraordinary thing for Draco to do because he's usually so frightened of being out of control, of drunkenness, etc.

Ooh, excellent catch! And interesting the way everybody backed away from them, too. Harry seems to have steered clear until he commented on that entry to get together. That is so cool and I don't know what to make of it. Was Draco testing his own control?

I can't imagine what Draco might have said that Seamus could be referring to if it's him, but it does seem like there's a pattern of things we have seen on the ljs:

Harry punches Draco (for DE-related reasons), Draco isn't speaking to him. ps says he needs to speak to Harry now, Harry refuses. Draco says something to change his mind and Harry says it's a lie. Draco has a weird weekend. Harry wants to hear about it. Draco implies this is what he tried to tell him about before so now he won't tell him. He holds out for a while, then goes to see Harry. Harry yells he's horrified. ps later makes comments about Harry thinking he's a liar. He and Harry have some contact, but it seems like they haven't completely clicked again until perhaps the early Sleep Duel night when Draco met with Harry. So it sounds to me that was the night when Draco and Harry actually talked about what happened with Dacey etc. Draco may have also got Harry to understand he hadn't been lying. He seems to say that Draco felt in control of the meeting this time.

Now, I can imagine Harry sharing whatever Draco said with Seamus. So it seemed like we'd gotten hints that H&D had made some breakthrough regarding *speaking* and speaking about important things. Of course, so did Remus and Narcissa, but it seemed like that was private between them.

Or perhaps I'm totally wrong. Maybe it's all about Neville admitting to his chocolate bar.

black_dog @ June 10 2004, 11:25:41 UTC

Well, after this morning's PS update of JH's journal ("His skin is so flawless . . . ") it's, um, kind of hard to sustain the Narcissa argument. But like a good devil's advocate, I will take a shot. I mean, I'd hate to think that NA was misdirecting us or anything like that . . . :)

I'm sort of turning over your suggestion that Seamus and Dean would find Narcissa and Remus' friendship to be basically none of their business. It's a strong point -- kids vs. adults and all that. But I don't think it's a slam dunk for two reasons. First, we've seen how close Seamus is to Remus and how much he tends to presume at times. I don't think it would occur to Seamus that he is not an equal to the adults or that anything isn't his business. Second, Ron's post about Percy not being evil was sort of an eye-opener about the sheer intensity of gossip that must be going on among the students, behind the scenes of the journals. If Percy's behavior merits this kind of speculation, how much more must Narcissa's public angsting and equivocating?

I also continue to feel that all the lovely HD is (perhaps intentionally) distracting us from some rumblings that are happening on the Remus-Narcissa-Snape axis. So I don't want to overlook them. As for misdirection -- Narcissa recently posted about the joys of "drifting." I believe this as much as I believe that Lucius is Yum-Yum. If ever there was a time for discipline and calculation and focus on Narcissa's part, this is it, and she knows it.

But the evidence is very thin, so all right, let's turn to the H/D, which is more fun anyway.

That is so cool and I don't know what to make of it.

Yay! And here's another cool thing: You yourself have been pointing out all year what a big theme sleep has been with Draco. He sleeps a lot, always talks about being tired, has disturbing dreams. So perhaps there is another level here, in which PS was directly taking on something that has to do with what sleep has come to mean for him.

I'm thinking that it might be something very specific and overt. We know from Harry's link to Voldemort that sleep opens up some magical communication channels, and dreams were potentially a way for Voldemort to spy on Harry and vice versa. Is it possible that over the past year Lucius and/or Voldemort has been monitoring Draco in a similar way? Was there some fairy-tale rule by which, if he stayed up a certain number of hours, he could break the spell? Did he do or say something to Harry or Snape that he didn't want L and V to find out about (at least for a while) and staying up prevented this? This might also explain why the professors left him to it for so long, and made up what sounded to me like lame, ad hoc excuses about "not interrupting wizard duels."

Finally, a thought on this morning's PS-for-JH post. In keeping with Seamus' point about people admitting things, it seems like almost a defiant admission of their relationship. I mean, just the fact of PS posting for JH suggests intimacy, and PS has JH admiring how he looks; they clearly spent almost the whole day together yesterday doing nothing in particular, and they seem to have possibly spent the night together. Has PS ever taken this many risks in a public post? And again, has the sleep duel changed things for him somehow? I've been a skeptic about the health of their relationship for a long time, as much as I've been rooting for them, but this certainly seems like big news.

sistermagpie @ June 10 2004, 14:48:15 UTC

But I don't think it's a slam dunk for two reasons. First, we've seen how close Seamus is to Remus and how much he tends to presume at times.

You're right. I don't think I could at all say where Remus would draw the line on what he would or wouldn't say to Seamus--they definitely discuss things that a teacher/student wouldn't naturally discuss, and Narcissa could be part of that.

I think part of why it's difficult is that old problem of not really *knowing* what is going on with her, so I have no idea what Remus would tell if he did. Their fight and make-up was public so Seamus could speak to him about that. I definitely don't want to overlook the Malfoys just because they've stopped posting song lyrics! Narcissa also mentioned Nesta Nott, right, who was attending to business? No, I definitely don't think Narcissa is just drifting.

In fact, given that this is Narcissa, the opposite could be true. Perhaps when she's not doing anything important she describes it as if it is brain surgery (like getting her robes tailored) and then talks about drifting and whiling away the time when she's really planning something to make sure people don't take her seriously.

Has PS ever taken this many risks in a public post?

Another thing that struck me about this post is remember how we'd been talking about how Harry never mentions ps in his own posts because he's not sure if this will make ps angry or not? ps has now posted for him and although he uses a lot of jokes and put-downs, he does include the time they spend together in the post alongside with conversations with "that Hermione Granger" (I loved that from canon) and "that red-headed fellow you often see me with." It's the first time "Harry" has ever posted a day where he described hanging out with Draco as well as Hermione and Ron. I wonder if this will give Harry the idea that it's okay to do that himself. Because Draco wasn't *just* rewriting Harry's life making himself the star and jealously hoarding Harry for himself. He was able to acknowledge Harry's best friends in a fairly neutral way--he mentions Harry's eating enough to feed Ron's family, but even there he didn't suggest they couldn't feed themselves, just that Harry ate enough for 9 7.:-(

I have no idea what to make of the sleep duel and so your other theory.:-) It's certainly in ps' nature to just get something in his teeth on a whim--I mean, we saw the conversation between him and MB that begat the duel and it came out of basically nothing. What's significant is that ps actually went through with it--I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd come up with some reason he didn't mean it, or if both of them had just not cared and fallen asleep, or if he had and then explained why he was above it. This seems to be the only duel he's actually completed, so I do think there's got to be some reason he wanted to do this and given the theme of sleep in his lj it could have had some personal meaning. It even came soon after Harry's own nightmare that Remus described, which ps was awake to hear about.

I also enjoyed the way ps' feelings came through the post with his references to people throwing gold at Harry for walking in the hall, Harry's beating people to a bloody pulp for saying the wrong thing, Harry discarding a paper when it's only got "the requisite five articles" about him and getting 600 points for sleeping angelically to the general applause. It didn't slip over into nastiness, but I did think this gave an incredibly accurate impression of how ps sees life being for Harry and it's not made up whole cloth. When he got to the part where he made himself a god, it seemed like this was his way of dealing with genuinely bad feelings.

That part just seemed like slipping into another key, because the alternative would have been to have Draco being another inferior with Harry easily besting him at everything and everyone liking Harry better...and I think that would have been too close to the truth to not hurt. So instead he pushes his own arrogance and Harry actually comes out looking better because no matter how great Harry seems to think he is in the post, Draco obviously comes out even more full of himself, that makes sense.

black_dog @ June 10 2004, 18:25:32 UTC

I love your point about how PS uses the post to break with Harry's reticence about PS. It's interesting that the post falls into two halves -- the first establishing how much of a god Harry is, and the second subordinating him to an even greater god, PS. :) In that sense, the whole thing is about how awesome PS is! And it's an interesting change, since although PS has used a similar tone in the past when teasing Harry in his own journal (remember his biography of Harry, with inventing the wheel and battling against the zombies?) he's never brought things back to himself in the same way. Is he suggesting they are meant for each other?

tabiji @ June 9 2004, 21:35:57 UTC

I agree that the first someone was Charlie. Seamus freaked out a bit when he knew he'd be seeing him (before the attack), so maybe Seamus was having second thoughts/realized that it was a rebound relationship/figured out he wasn't really over Dean. Since he says his feelings are real, and not circumstantial, I think he was somehow afraid that getting back with Dean would feel like he was just settling for Dean because Charlie was out of the picture.

I think the second someone must be Harry. The interference that they'll all have to deal with sounds like Voldemort. The 'not how he wanted to hear it' could be about whatever Draco said in the screened comment, (either about his loyalties or his feelings for Harry), or it could also be about how they awkwardly found out about Percy's not being evil. The mention of how surprising it is makes me think it is the former rather than the latter.

The third someone does seem to be Lupin finding some sort of closure with Snape. Maybe that was finally finding out exactly what went wrong with the Potion that Hermione screwed up. Then again, I suppose it could have something to do with the Lavender-Parvati-Padma roommate situation.

Too many someones!

laurac0re @ June 10 2004, 00:55:34 UTC

I didn't even think about the Lavender/Parvati/Padma roomate situation for the last 'someone' but yeah, I could totally see that fitting too.

I might be more likely to believe that than the something involving Lupin and Snape. Lupin's post didn't sound upset, like he had just received some 'unpleasant truth' whereas Lavender was obviously upset about the roomate situation.

vassilissa @ June 10 2004, 10:06:14 UTC I may as well indulge in being this sure before I get proved wrong

I'm convinced the second someone is Harry. I was squeeing all over the place when I read that comment thread.

Here's how I read it:

Someone else got some truth that might not have been how they wanted to hear it, but does that really matter?
Draco blurted out that he loved Harry in the screened comment. That was totally not how Harry wanted to hear that, but (so long as they sort it out now) does that really matter?

If you are surprised at certain someones then I must be... surprised times surprised. Which equals faintly godsmacked, I think.
At least you'd considerd the idea before. Dean didn't believe they'd ever get to this point. Dean thought Draco was messing with Harry.

Some people seem shocked enough that they don't even believe it.

Harry. In fact, "some people" almost always means Harry. I think if an NA character said that some people were sorted into Hufflepuff, taught Care of Magical Creatures, and were very tall, I'd *still* think of Harry first.

But you know, for the first time I think that all might turn out okay in the end, barring the obvious interference.

For the first time Seamus thinks their obstacles are from the outside, not from within.

I can't blame some people for their skepticism. Particularly since interference seems to follow them around doggedly.

In Harry's place, Dean would have mistrusted any declaration from Draco for the DE stuff alone.

hezzabeth @ June 10 2004, 10:43:01 UTC Re: I may as well indulge in being this sure before I get proved wrong

Yes exactly! the comments reveal it could'nt be about the wedding.

a_player @ June 10 2004, 17:58:06 UTC

Just to keep this from completely spiraling:

You were correct about who he was referring to--himself in the first, Harry and Draco in the second, and Remus and Severus in the third.

You were also correct about the truth that Seamus told. The other truths I can neither confirm nor deny, except that people have got them right at various points in this thread.

As for the interference, well, that's the interference everyone in the wizarding world has right now, isn't it?

--Seamus' player