| dragynville @ 2003-08-10 16:32:00 |
hah!
Hooch and Snape are on the job. Of harrying Sirius, that is.
And oh! how you deserve it!
Comments:
| imochan @ August 10 2003, 16:45:22 UTC |
This may be the prodding he needs, but Dragyn love, I hardly think he deserves it! ;_; They're both so wibble! And Sirius, while not to be acquitted of the relationship mess-ups, shouldn't be wholly accused of them either. I've always seen him as a rather unstable individual - and I know people here have talked about that as well - despite the seemingly normal penchants for leather, motorbikes, and sex with hot werewolves. >:D< However, he certainly has issues to work through here, and while Snape and Hooch are certainly being a bit cruel about it (WITTY BANTER WITTY BANTER!!! :D :D :D), it may prove to be exactly what he needs. OTOH, I don't profess to be any sort of expert on Sirius's inner workings, and who knows, because of Sirius's rather proud personality, this could also be incredibly destructive to the S/R.
What do you guys think?
| dragynville @ August 10 2003, 17:32:40 UTC |
Normally, I'd agree with you. I do love our dear Sirius. However, there is the issue of Harry and that is what I find reprehensible. Being self-destuctive and self-involved is all fine and dandy (you only have yourself to blame when everyone eventually deserts you), unless you have a child and your behavior begins damaging that child. Sirius didn't even notice that Harry was gone for what? 24 hours or so? Harry is clearly feeling neglected and unwanted by Sirius and I find that inexcusable.
And while that is not their motivation for harassing him, it is mine for the loss of my sympathy.
Grow up Sirius, it's not all about you anymore!
Now, as for the question about how this will affect the S/R relationship (or lack there of).. I can only think that it will benefit Sirius in that he is hearing from other sources that his behavior is unacceptable. If he were to go on thinking that it was only Remus and Snape who disapproved, he might never see himself from any other perspective than his own (an affliction of the self-involved, and Sirius is self-involved).
| imochan @ August 10 2003, 18:27:53 UTC |
ITA - no love for the kadiddle neglecting. Hm, I guess I'm all wobbly around the issue of Sirius (moreso than I thought), because your point about his self-involved behaviour being pretty damn inexcusable - especially with Harry involved - is v. true. But despite the behaviour he's been displaying, more blatantly, recently, I still feel that he's probably not completely aware of what he's doing, and am therefore all wibbly and still sympathetic... argh, am so bad at articulating these kind of things! ^^;; I should just sit to wailing quietly in a corner. XD
(parent)| dragynville @ August 10 2003, 18:53:42 UTC |
Oh, I agree with you there. I too do not think he's entirely consciously aware of the scope of his behavior and its myriad effects on others. Being self-involved, he is only thinking of how his actions effect himself and his own feelings. Plus, being self-destructive on top of that, he's indulging in the self-fulfilling prophecy: he feels he does not deserve their love (or something like that) so, subconsciously, he's driving them away before they can leave him.
It is only because of this (and the fact that Remus and Harry do love him so) that I still care for Sirius at all and hope that he will pull his head out of his ass and fix his life. But, in order to do that, he needs to wake up to his behavior and that will not happen if people indulge or coddle him.
| black_dog @ August 10 2003, 19:50:24 UTC |
In judging Sirius, I think it's less about his "instability" and more about who he's being "unstable" with. Sirius' player has pointed out that he was never a very nice guy and 12 years of Azkaban hasn't improved him. And I think Remus totally understands, and is willing to work with, a Sirius who has monogamy issues and gives in to his impulses. The key I think is in this exchage at Dumbledore's party -- it's about Lucius
sistermagpie and I have been kicking this around on a now-buried thread. I made the point there that the attack on Hogwarts totally changes the significance of any fling with Lucius. Before, you could just say Lucius was unresolved baggage from Sirius' past, and one of his many sources of temptation. But since the attack, Lucius has to be seen, first, as a member, and in fact a leader, of a group that almost killed Harry. It's gone over the line. It's one thing for Sirius to be self-destructive. It's another for him to show Harry that he's willing to sacrifice his family -- and Harry's happiness -- to continue a relationship with a man who may have had a role in killing Harry's parents and in trying to kill Harry himself.
Sirius can do what he wants, but there's no way Harry is under any obligation to put up with that. He's absolutely entitled to find this unacceptable, to refuse to respect this. And his next step, I think, is to stop considering Sirius as a godfather, to separate from him and hopefully join up with Remus. But that's got to be unbelievably painful. And Remus is entitled to feel outrage over this on Harry's behalf. I really think it's the fact that it's Lucius who is at the center of this that pushes Sirius' behavior over the line from pitiable to contemptible.
| untiemybinds @ August 10 2003, 20:05:20 UTC |
Word. Bloody f'ing word.
Oh how I love the nragers who have the brains to put into words what I have been thinking in my mind.
You are much with the smart. :D
| dragynville @ August 10 2003, 20:40:32 UTC |
Quite so, quite so. But I think the Lucius factor has only exacerbated a problem that was already there and would have come up eventually (Lucius or no Lucius): the fact that Sirius is willing to sacrifice both Harry and Remus on the altar of his own self-indulgence. Lucius is less an irresistable temptation than a convenience for Sirius' self-destructive behavior. I think the fact that he has chosen something that targets Harry of all people is indicative of that.
Now, granted, the man has problems but, when one takes on the responsibility of a child, one must 'bite the bullet' and become the grown up. If he chooses not to, he will eventually lose Harry (or he would in the real world).
As for Sirius' player, I think he/she is playing him brilliantly and very IC (given OOTP), but it does not mean I have to like Sirius or find his behavior acceptable. My feelings stem from my desire to see Harry have a little bit of happiness and to see Sirius evolve and grow beyond JKRs vision of him.
 |
Anonymous @ August 10 2003, 21:34:27 UTC |
Yes. Am too stupid to know how to make actual gold star.
*does interpretive dance instead*
:-)
| sistermagpie @ August 10 2003, 20:54:37 UTC |
Yes, although I think there's more issues here than the Lucius one. Not that I could tell you all of what they are, but I feel like there's a lot of stuff going on here. None of which makes it any more acceptable for Sirius to ever choose Lucius over anybody.
But this just made me think about how interesting the connection to the Malfoy family is here. It's probably totally obvious to everyone else, but it just struck me how Sirius has this connection to Lucius, Remus to Narcissa and Harry to Draco. Sirius, bizarrely, hates Narcissa and Draco but likes Lucius. Remus doesn't hate Draco (we know from the veritaseum incident) but probably cares about him mostly because Narcissa and Harry do. Harry became friendly with Narcissa first because she was "Malfoy's mum" and probably also because she is Remus' friend. Sirius not only doesn't like being told not to like Lucius because Remus and Harry don't, but he also doesn't seem to much want to make an effort with Narcissa and Draco for their sakes. (Though to be fair I don't recall him saying anything particularly nasty about them for a while either).
I think Sirius has a very difficult time really considering himself part of anyone's family and he may be carrying a lot of anger from his years in Azkaban. To us it may seem like a no-brainer that he'd hate Lucius as a DE but it wasn't the DEs that put him in prison, it was the Ministry with the support of the Order. This may have caused NA!Sirius to stop seeing things in those terms.
This, of course, does not explain how Sirius could not be just as furious at Lucius as Remus is given the attack on Hogwarts, which Lucius does appear to have been involved in. I sometimes get the feeling that Sirius really doesn't have much of a relationship with Lucius, nor a desire for one, but that he refuses to make that clear to Remus because he feels he shouldn't have to. Almost like Sirius has just been waiting to be accused of being untrustworthy and gets a strange kind of satisfaction ut of it happening. I would love to know how he views Remus' friendship with Narcissa and Harry's with Draco, given their contempt for Lucius. How does he see Lucius as being more acceptable than the two of them? I'd love to know.
| black_dog @ August 10 2003, 22:46:11 UTC |
Yay! Let's continue this up here, because it's too interesting to be buried in the anonymous bowels of NrAaged. I love your reading of the multiple connections between Harry's family and the Malfoys -- it's really not obvious until you mention it. So it's worth considering what "extended family" dynamics are in play here.
I sometimes get the feeling that Sirius really doesn't have much of a relationship with Lucius, nor a desire for one, but that he refuses to make that clear to Remus because he feels he shouldn't have to.
This is a really fascinating idea. I guess what we see again and again is Lucius taking the initiative, and Sirius gradually succumbing, at least verbally, to the flirtation. But has there really been anything more than that?
The most emotional connection between Sirius and Lucius is suggested in the infamous, classic shiny thread. I read this exchange as just saturated with nostalgia, with a sense, even on Lucius' part, of the uncanny twists and turns that life takes, and a longing for a time when people hadn't been stamped by their choices. I'm a bit fuzzy on NA's Marauder chronology -- was Lucius at school with Remus and Sirius and Snape? But it feels like Sirius and Remus and Lucius have a past together, a real connection, despite the huge apparent gulf in their current circumstances. Interestingly, the strongest bond seems to be between Remus and Lucius -- I love the way Remus sings him lullabyes. And it was Remus who dueled Lucius after an earlier alleged flirtation with Sirius. Perhaps Remus feels especially betrayed by what Lucius has become? And Sirius' flirtation reflects some awareness of this specific sore spot of Remus'?
That would explain some of their past tensions over Lucius. But is it true that Remus is merely imagining that there's more than a flirtation going on? Is there any evidence of Sirius and Lucius actually spending time together recently? Lucius strongly hints at the party that he and Sirius got together in London during Sirius' recent travels, though Sirius pretends not to know what he's talking about. And an NrAger has pointed out that the leather shop where Sirius got his jacket a few days ago is very close to the Ritz, where Lucius was entertaining a guest. [can't find link.]
So Lucius may have some special significance in the Sirius-Remus dynamic, he may be a sore spot. But there does seem to be more going on than flirtation. And I continue to believe that things have changed fundamentally, taken on a whole new meaning, in light of the Hogwarts attack. Remus, who used to attack Lucius for interfering with his relationship with Sirius, is now attacking Sirius for his callous disregard for Harry.
To us it may seem like a no-brainer that he'd hate Lucius as a DE but it wasn't the DEs that put him in prison, it was the Ministry with the support of the Order.
I respectfully think you're letting Lucius too much off the hook here. It's canonical, of course, that Lucius is a leading ally of Voldemort -- though OOTP revealed that fanon probably exaggerates this, that Bellatrix rather than Lucius is the #1 DE and Lucius is just a prominent member of the specific faction that escaped prosecution. Still, Lucius' DE connections, and his interest in placating Voldemort, can be taken for granted. And on Veritaserum night, Lucius directly insinuates that he had inside knowledge of the Potters' murder. So to say that Sirius bitterness is about blaming the Order for his imprisonment in Azkaban . . . I don't know. I think he would blame Wormtail, who framed him, (there's abundant evidence of this in PoA), and I think he would be at least as bitter at the murder of his friends, which was clearly done by the DE's, as he would be over the prosecution.
| sistermagpie @ August 11 2003, 07:52:47 UTC |
Yay is right! Loving this. First I just wanted to clear up one thing where we are on the same page:
I respectfully think you're letting Lucius too much off the hook here. It's canonical, of course, that Lucius is a leading ally of Voldemort.
I think that we, and Remus and Harry, are completely right in seeing Lucius as very much responsible for Sirius' imprisonment, but Sirius himself seems to be defensive on that issue for some reason. Sirius may be very screwed up and so unable to be objective on this. Maybe he doesn't want Lucius to be the one mainly responsible, or perhaps even feels more free-floating anger at the "good guys" rather than the bad because the DEs were at least honestly out to get him. He wasn't betrayed by Voldemort because Voldemort was never supposed to be his friend. So his anger about the whole situation may be more self-directed or directed at his friends than in the direction we'd expect it to take. His years in Azkaban may have made this even more about himself for him, and Harry and Remus are now having to deal with the last kind of hurtful behavior they would ever have expected from him. I mean, you'd think the least they could expect is that he wouldn't cozy up to this guy--in the past Sirius has been rabid in his defense of Harry in particular (remember the outing thread) but now he's ready to talk civilly and possibly sleep with Lucius? He's made himself the traitor once again. So I'm not saying Lucius isn't the bad guy, just that Sirius may not be thinking logically on that.
Right now it seems like Lucius and Sirius are involved somehow, but I'm not sure if that's not mostly Lucius' illusion. If they are involved than Sirius is even more destructive, not just because he's cozying up to the man who tried to kill Harry but because Lucius is clearly using their involvement to screw things up for Sirius with his family even more. So I'm not sure yet how to take the way Sirius responds to Lucius. Like, when Lucius asks about Sirius' new leather trousers Sirius reveals that Lucius saw him in them. Is he trying to shove it in Remus' face that he and Lucius are seeing each other or--equally possible--did Lucius intentionally bump into Sirius in London and Sirius is making a point of being honest about it so that he's not hiding anything? Is Sirius' apparently in-your-face flaunting of his relationship with Lucius a case of him wanting to hurt Lupin and Harry viciously or more a case of a self-destructive "This is what you think I am, I've got the name so I'll play the game," type thing?
Mostly importantly though, as you said, is that Sirius' actions here are having consequences. They're hurting people, especially Remus and Harry. Whatever his reasons for doing it he's the one who has to answer for that. Assuring Harry, especially, that Sirius would never leave him for Lucius should be more important than anything Sirius needs to prove about himself.
| black_dog @ August 10 2003, 22:47:03 UTC |
[continued]
So I can't accept that Lucius is just another body to Sirius. Sirius looks at Lucius and has to see the person who destroyed his life and his friends, who orphaned Harry. Or at least played an active role in all that, behind the scenes. And Sirius wants to sleep with him. That's messed up, in an entirely different way than Sirius' more general unfaithfulness and promiscuity.
I would love to know how he views Remus' friendship with Narcissa and Harry's with Draco, given their contempt for Lucius. How does he see Lucius as being more acceptable than the two of them?
Wow. If Sirius thinks that there's an equivalence, that's some really screwed up special pleading. But you're right, he may see it that way -- he may be irrationally unable to distinguish between Lucius' direct guilt and the guilt-by-association of Narcissa and Draco. So that Remus' friendship with Narcissa, and Harry's with Draco, are a similar betrayal of the Marauder past.
Well, maybe not special pleading based on your own speculations about Narcissa. Might she really be as guilty as Lucius? That gets us back to Narcissa for a bit, and the question of her own personality. In one of the NrAged threads, Lucius told us that Narcissa was 19 and he was 24 when they married. And the first rise of Voldemort, the murder of the Potters, happened shortly after that. So Narcissa might be excused from full knowledge or responsibility on the basis of youth. As far as Voldemort's return -- well, we've seen Narcissa emerging from kind of a fog over the past year, which may argue diminished responsibility as well. And ironically, her definance and ridicule of Voldemort the other night may suggest that she still doesn't fully understand what she's involved with -- or else she would never have dared to use that kind of language. It's not positive proof, but it's suggestive. My impression is that Narcissa isn't acting like someone who's calculating her escape from a guilty past. She's acting like someone who is only just beginning to find her own center and act on her own account, and her first instinct is to recoil from Lucius and the DE's.
So whichever way I turn, I honestly find myself running out of excuses for Sirius. That doesn't preclude sympathy for him, or what he has gone through. But I think his lack of self-control, or his self-destructiveness, or his warped perception, or whatever you want to call it, has become impossible to deal with. At some point, he's responsible for the hurt he's causing. And to quote the infamous Rudy Guiliani, "you can feel sorry for someone at the same time you're stringing them up." I wouldn't blame Harry and Remus for writing him off at this point.
| sistermagpie @ August 11 2003, 07:53:14 UTC |
It's just so fascinating, when you think about it, that this family which is the most deeply involved with the fight against V is so intimately involved with the family that's most on V's side. H,R and S's most consistent relationships outside of each other are with these three! Maybe it's like the way cops and criminals are so linked to each other--they're naturally drawn to their opposite number on the other side.
Right now I feel most confident about Harry and Draco's relationship--meaning that I feel like it's the most positive at this point. ps knows what Harry wants from him (no bigotry, no Voldemort, less selfish) and has taken tentative steps towards modifying his behavior. I think Harry has relatively few illusions about ps, given their history. Also ps has had to suffer some serious consequences for his actions this year and he couldn't blame them on Harry. He's still far from perfect (oh, so far!) but I think he's started to think about uncomfortable things about himself. As a kid ps is the least set in his ways, too, and he's yet to have gotten involved in the kind of evil Lucius has committed.
Sirius and Lucius, unfortunately, seem to encourage the worst in each other. Lucius encourages Sirius to feel like he's not appreciated, Sirius still puts an air of sexiness on Lucius' behavior. Where Harry draws ps towards the light Lucius is the one drawing Sirius to darkness. It's just bad all around.
| sistermagpie @ August 11 2003, 07:58:56 UTC |
Dammit...how did it manage to cut off the last bit?
I had also said that I thought Remus and Narcissa were more in the middle of these two. Remus is a positive influence on Narcissa, encouraging her in her good impulses, but I also think he lets her off the hook in ways Harry doesn't with ps. Narcissa is older and much more adept at controlling her relationship with Remus. Ironically, she's doing exactly what Remus is angry at Sirius for doing: she's married to Lucius. But Remus is willing to accept Narcissa's claimed ignorance about what this means at face value.
But maybe he's completely right to do that. Perhaps this is exactly what Narcissa needs to make her own way towards the right side. I can't say. I do know that her relationship with Remus is a positive influence in her life, just as Harry is a positive influence on Draco. Only Sirius and Lucius' relationship seems devoid of hope.