| sistermagpie @ 2004-03-24 23:47:00 |
Macmillan causes more trouble
Mood: 
amused
potterstinks updates. "Ernie Macmillan" has really been getting on his nerves, expecting him to be something he's not and bringing up arguments from 10 months ago.
When will Ernie ever learn?
Edit: xnera has helpfully found the argument from 10 months ago.
Comments:
| xnera @ March 25 2004, 04:52:10 UTC |
Of course I immediately delved into the archives (I *heart* historic_alley) and found this conversation, almost exactly ten months ago. Rather interesting, I thought. Hee.
| sistermagpie @ March 25 2004, 04:56:49 UTC |
Thank you! I was just searching the archives for that same thing.:-D
(I'll add it in.)
 |
kearie @ March 25 2004, 05:06:11 UTC |
Poor Draco, he seems very put out :( I think he needs a hug from Harry :)
(parent) |
ex_lev195 @ March 25 2004, 05:19:41 UTC |
Holy cow. I think my brain just exploded.
It's amusing how Ernie actually thought Draco was talking about him.
I wonder if Harry will respond.
| laurac0re @ March 25 2004, 06:31:16 UTC |
*wibbles*
where's the love boys????
WHERE????
*orders them to kiss and make up. or out.*
| tabiji @ March 25 2004, 06:33:57 UTC |
I was just thinking they were way overdue for a fight. *covers eyes*
(parent)| allthat_jazz @ March 25 2004, 06:57:43 UTC |
Wow, this is really a knock-down, drag-out fight going on. *wibbles*
(parent)| eponis @ March 25 2004, 07:08:31 UTC |
::CRIES:: Harry used "alot," surely intentionally, and Draco not only ignores it but suggests ending it . . .
And poor Harry responds angrily but ignores the suggestion of ending, as if that'll make it go away . . .
Dude, this is the first time I've been riveted enough to lose sleep in rather a while . . .
::cries more::
| laurac0re @ March 25 2004, 07:15:30 UTC |
draco is obviously calling harry's bluff.
i mean.
he isn't serious.
no.
no!!!!!
| tortietta @ March 25 2004, 07:40:18 UTC |
Wah! I just can't get over the sentiment in this comment.
I mean, PS is trying to hide how he feels, he is trying to hide what he is really saying, but it's there, and it's all so WAH! :((
| hated_and_loved @ March 25 2004, 07:42:22 UTC |
The "L" Word. He used the effing "L" Word! Granted, it's not directly referring to Harry, but the implications ...
*dead*
| tortietta @ March 25 2004, 07:50:38 UTC |
Oh, man, YES! The implications have me all over the place. *wibble*
And wah! Draco just wont stop. *wibble*
| monkiedude @ March 25 2004, 09:05:05 UTC |
Go RON.
I think Draco's making the better points here, depressing as that may be. But Harry wins my heart for ever and ever by telling Hermione that "...there is [a point to arguing with Malfoy], so just stay out of it please."
| lazy_daze @ March 25 2004, 14:32:55 UTC |
Oh my GOD! *doesn't know what to think* First off, that was *so* w00bie of Draco in the original entry. I was making incoherent noises of glee when I realised he was talking about Harry (it took me till Everything's quite, 'Oh, why do you do these things?', when of course prior to that it was always, 'Oh, of course I don't think you're someone you're not' *is slow*) and then incoherent noises of angst when it all started falling apart. Oh, it's painful *hugs the boys* and to me it's practically blatant they were in a relationship type thing - this kind of angst definitely goes beyond friendship angst, I think. Oh oh I want them to sort it out, it hurts this does. And Millicent is perfect. Do I need to get cake. Oh M.B.
(parent)| sistermagpie @ March 25 2004, 15:26:27 UTC |
Oh my god. I'm actually lucky I was able to turn off the computer before Harry started commenting because otherwise I would have been up all night.:-)
I love this so much. And I love that the other characters got involved as well, especially Hermione. She's wrong, but she's wrong in such a Hermione way and it's great that Harry gets to fight with her too about things that haven't been said. And Ron, who's in the doghouse himself for his poll, has earned his place as Harry's ally here (could it have been more sweet when Harry used his Chudley icon in response to Ron's thumbs-up of support?), wisely staying out of it and trying to get Hermione to as well. This is what I love about this game--Ron learned what j_h and ps are about so honestly and slowly that of course they trust him now. Which is totally Ron--he trusted that if this was important to Harry there was something there that was important and he should be involved in it.
This is just...wow! It gets into all these issues without making it about Issues--and Harry's capslocking! Harry brings up queer vs. Mudblood and Hhis feelings about the Hufflepuffs, one of whom learnt nothing from Love Your Neighbor Week. Harry's standing up for his relationship with Draco, which Hermione has always been a bit condescending about, assuming it had something to do with Draco's looks and Quidditch. (Love how Harry doesn't mind here getting in a bit of a swipe at Ernie to make his point.)
Then, of course, there's all the ps/j_h stuff. There's the "same argument from 10 months ago," which was never resolved, but look how they're getting closer to it! I mean, the thing is, I think underneath ps knows perfectly well when he's being a bitch. I love the way here again it's not a question of his getting into a fight with Harry at the time the thing happens. Harry makes a comment to him and then Draco stews about it and works it into something where Harry's not liking him for who he is, as if being a bigot is "who he is" fundamentally, denying he could feel badly about himself on his own.
Also, I love how it gets down to both of them seemingly saying the same thing to each other: you really hate me, just as you've always hated me. You act like you hate me. Because you really can't separate these issues from who both of them are. I was completely excited by Harry's coming out and saying that to Draco--even if Draco refused to acknowledge it. It was such a believeable fight, where both of them are talking about different things. Like Draco calling Hermione a Mudblood to Harry is about Draco showing Harry he hates him and what he stands for, whereas for Draco it's about being himself.
Which leads me to...why has Draco suddenly called Hermione a mudblood again? Cause no matter what he says, obviously he hasn't called her that in a while. It makes me definitely wonder if the two of them both feel like they need to press this issue. I mean, there's only so far Draco can support Voldemort's views and agenda and be Harry's...whatever they tell themselves they are. They really can't ignore it forever.
| black_dog @ March 28 2004, 22:41:22 UTC |
This thread is probably dead but I'm late to the party and just catching up -- your comment is fascinating as always, and wonderful for opening things up.
It gets into all these issues without making it about Issues
Yeah, it's a great way to re-kickstart the public part of the game, because there is so much being suggested, almost offhandedly. I'm really intrigued by the tension between Harry and Hermione. Ernie and Justin, after all, have expressed some bigotry about Harry's "queerness," so why is Harry supposed to support Hermione/Ernie while he's also supposed to understand Hermione's anger at Draco over the "mudblood" remark?
I love how it gets down to both of them seemingly saying the same thing to each other: you really hate me, just as you've always hated me.
I don't see it as quite the same -- in contrast to some readings, I think Harry really is coming off as the stronger person here, and the person with the greater tolerance for ambiguities. His point to Draco is not so much, "I'm disappointed that you said 'mudblood,' I guess you aren't different after all." I think it's more "you know this makes me unhappy, and if you say it, I'll call you on it, but I still care about you." His secondary point is, "I thought you stopped saying it for my sake, and I was really affected by that, and I really don't know why you're saying it now -- which is what I want to talk about." I don't think he's simply condemning Draco over the "mudblood" thing, he wants to explore what's going on with him at this moment. I think he makes much more sense than Draco does at this point.
I'm trying to conjure up a backstory for the fight, just to make sense of it. Clearly, despite his denials, Harry is pushing Draco a little bit -- but perhaps not so much to change or "reform" as just to confront his contradictions, to get serious a little about himself. Draco seems incredibly threatened by this challenge, since it calls into question all the stuff he's denying and evading. He wants to excuse his contradictions, his moods, the unpredictability of how he treats Harry, by just saying "it's me." I suspect when Harry called him out on the "mudblood" thing, it activated a few feelings Draco couldn't deal with: First I suspect is his own guilt over the use of the term -- I imagine this is part of Draco rejecting, backing away from the whole world of possibility that has opened to him through Harry, believing it will never be for him and that it's time to crawl back behind his father's fortifications. And also hating that, and feeling like a failure over it, and feeling unbelievably sad that it hasn't come off the way, at moments, he maybe hoped it would. Although Draco is being a bastard, he's obviously hurting badly. His remark to M.B. -- "Mummy, I've just had my hand ripped off by a hippogriff." -- suggests how torn up he feels, how much loss he feels.
And I think Harry realizes all this, and isn't just trying to box Draco into a corner or vent at him. Although Harry is clearly angry and upset about Draco's evasions, about Draco's apparent willingness to scuttle their relationship rather than confront its issues, I don't think he's simply attacking Draco. I think he's trying to provoke him into a more honest engagement with their problems, signalling over and over that these things are worth talking through, that the relationship is worth salvaging.
Hmmm. Needs more thought, maybe. Actually it needs more evidence ;). So it should be fun to see what happens next -- especially over D's birthday party, which seems to be at major risk.
| sistermagpie @ March 29 2004, 00:21:25 UTC |
Woo-hoo! Good thing I decided to turn on the computer! If it can't be an NA update, a B_D response is just as good!!
I think Harry really is coming off as the stronger person here, and the person with the greater tolerance for ambiguities.
Oh, absolutely! My comment about Harry feeling Draco didn't like him was just in response to Harry actually saying, "You act like you hate me." The Q&A seemed to indicate Harry only occasionally felt like Draco liked him when he did something to indicate it. If Draco hadn't stopped using the term Mudblood for Harry that would be one sign of affection from Draco that was false. (And how primal that Harry uses the word "hate" in the fight and Draco uses the word "love"--it just seemed to indicate they're talking about basics here!) Basically, I saw it the same way you did, I think.:-)
Interesting how Harry called Draco a prick for calling Hermione a Mudblood and when Draco tried to protest that this was "who he is" Harry quite rightly pointed out that he (Harry) had never found it acceptable and that's who HE is. Draco was, imo, far more dishonest in the conversation, constantly denying that he was doing what he was accusing Harry of doing (bringing up arguments from 10 months ago, not accepting Harry's explanations of himself etc.) Also, I thought it was pretty bold of him to ask, "Why not?" when Harry said he had not changed his own views on the Mudblood issue, as if Harry *should* have changed to accomodate him when Harry is wrong for expecting him to change. Then he runs away, eager to use Hermione as proof Harry doesn't want to continue--it's almost like he wants Harry to do the inevitable and cut things off so it's taken care of for him. Harry's not buying it, though--his response to M.B. ("I wasn't invited") and his mentioning there are some things you can't do alone suggested to me he'd decided it was time for Draco to meet him halfway.
But I got exactly the same vibes you did from Draco's protests--I do think he feels like crap for calling Hermione the name (even if he still doesn't like her) and is feeling very scared/sad/unsure about what he's turning into and what that makes him--which would be easier if it were Harry's fault. I wonder if Draco is at this point sure why he stopped using the word. I think part of it was to please Harry, just as using the word pleases Lucius, but at this point it might be something more he doesn't really understand. It's really just sad to think that someone considers being a racist a core part of their personality, but Draco's sense of self has always seemed pretty weak (which is why he has to overdo it so often). Who is he if he isn't the snobbish DE junior? And is this expected to be his life after Hogwarts?
That's why even though Harry's being the better person here, I do at least have to admit that Draco's in the harder position. Draco would be the one going against his family and background, possibly placing his trust in Harry and his friends. (Remember that dream he had, where he got lost after choosing not to be a vampire and found himself alone in a hallway surrounded by pictures of Hermione and Ron--if something happened to Harry, that's basically where Draco would be.)
| black_dog @ March 29 2004, 03:53:59 UTC |
it's almost like he wants Harry to do the inevitable and cut things off so it's taken care of for him
Yeah, I think this is exactly right. Maybe the root of it is a control thing -- he feels out of control, he feels like he's inevitably going to lose Harry, and he'd rather have it seem like his own choice than a rejection on Harry's part or something that Lucius forces him into.
It's true that Harry and Draco both, from the Q and A, feel that the other is less strongly invested in the relationship. For Harry, this is a source of sadness, I think, but he can deal with it -- he's used to disappointment, he's used to having to work and hope for things and to accepting the related risk. Harry can take an imperfect thing and work with it, up to a point. But for Draco, it's a source of panic, because he can never be loved enough. He's always going to obsessively fear betrayal and disappointment, and he's always going to be sabotaging his own happiness pre-emptively to prevent that fear from being realized. I wish I saw a way out of that box for Draco.
Draco's sense of self has always seemed pretty weak . . . I do at least have to admit that Draco's in the harder position. Draco would be the one going against his family and background, possibly placing his trust in Harry and his friends. (Remember that dream he had . . . )
Well, to an extent, yes, but I have to insist on something the game seems to insist on, in large and small ways: In breaking with his parents, Draco isn't being asked to face anything tougher than several of his peers have faced -- Dean for instance, and certainly Harry himself. And Draco has some tremendous resources if he chooses to stand by himself. He has his own money, his own house, his own shop in Diagon Alley (and if we are to believe Seamus, a promising career in design ahead of him if he wants it :). I don't want to underestimate the emotional difficulty of this for Draco, and I probably wouldn't want to personally be in his position. But I think the point here is to force the issue back on PS' personal character and strength and not on his circumstances. Is Draco strong enough to do what he needs to do -- and objectively can do -- in order to be happy? Or is he still too dependent on the mythical figures of his parents?
I think we talked once about the way Draco has always treated his day to day life, his "real" life by any measure, as a kind of dream or accident ("Hogwarts is not my life!") while finding his rest or security in a fantasy of his father's unlimited power and his mother's unconditional love. Even with all the things that have happened in the past year to disillusion him about his family, and even with the offer of a real life and love of his own, he just can't make the decision to stand on his own feet, to take his own chances. It's a wonderful characterization, really, when you look how it is woven even into the way PS addresses some apparently unrelated issues -- the way he seems to be testing Harry's love and acceptance to see if it's as unlimited as the fantasy he's being asked to abandon; the way he sees his choice as a matter of going over to someone else's protection -- perhaps to Ron and Hermione's side (as in the dream image) rather than simply of taking his own side.
Harry's not buying it, though--his response to M.B. ("I wasn't invited") and his mentioning there are some things you can't do alone suggested to me he'd decided it was time for Draco to meet him halfway.
Exactly. All of this has to frustrate Harry to no end, since Harry, practically from birth, has had to suck it up and make the kinds of choices that Draco refuses to make. Not the least of these is the risk Harry took with Draco in the first place. It will hurt Harry terribly to break with Draco, I think, but he's capable of doing it if he has to, and he'll survive. I think he's drawing a line in the sand here, and I confess I'm holding my breath to see how it plays out.
| sistermagpie @ March 29 2004, 05:31:27 UTC |
Exactly. All of this has to frustrate Harry to no end, since Harry, practically from birth, has had to suck it up and make the kinds of choices that Draco refuses to make.
Yes on one hand you just want to shake ps and tell him to grow up already, but otoh, this has always been his problem. Harry's not asking him to do anything unreasonable--in fact, he's barely asking him to do anything. He's just a walking example of how a better adjusted person behaves.
There's two things that do make me see things from ps' pov. One of them is possible not really valid, because it's OotP canon, but Canon Sirius to me just made a huge impression on what the reality of trying to switch loyalties in the WW was like. He wound up with no protection in a world where he really needed it. But as I said, that may be sort of off the track of NA and I shouldn't use OotP canon too much to influence me. Dean's family has been awful, but they still seem to have brought him up to be an independent person, and even if they haven't accepted his sexuality, he's not dead to them.
The other thing is how ps probably shows the reality of dealing with a dammaged person. It would be great if with Harry's good influence he just rose to the challenge, but I think all the Malfoys players have given us a childhood for this particular kid that would make it difficult for him to do that (take that with a grain of salt since I'm not a psychologist). He's not just a brat; he's stuck in a real pattern here set early on that would be hard to just break. Many people never do, and spend their lives acting out the same thing over and over.
So as frustrating as ps is, he probably is as he should be, and I like how as mature as Harry is, he's not equipped to be his therapist. As you said, Harry's all too ready to accept disappointment but that could be a bad thing for him too, because how sad for him to leave the relationship thinking that Draco didn't really care about him (and that means so much to Harry) if Draco did care about him. We don't want give Harry too much knowledge because he seems so mature. He could be just hearing his own insecurities here as well.
The one bright spot for ps is, as I think we've agreed, he does seem to know he's wrong here, underneath, stewing about feeling he's offensive just by being (which he claims everyone else is). He still seems to be projecting his own feelings onto Harry, which is unfair, but maybe he wrestled over the week and couldn't come to a conclusion and finally gave up and threw it out there for Harry?
| black_dog @ March 30 2004, 00:56:46 UTC |
maybe he wrestled over the week and couldn't come to a conclusion and finally gave up and threw it out there for Harry?
"Threw it out there" -- LOL, by telling Harry he wasn't worth talking to! But you're right -- can you imagine what it must be like when those two try to communicate about important stuff? Just an endless maze of obscure hints and ambiguous acting-out and deniable signalling. I worry that it would wear anyone down.
I was rereading the original "mudblood" remark that provoked the fight -- which I take to be the Bonzi Buddy thread -- and as usual things are always worth re-reading because memory is deceptive. One thing, of course, is that the "mudblood" remark is spoken in the person of the monkey, and not directly by Draco. And it's spoken not to Hermione, but to Finch-Fletchley, who has jumped with his big fat feet right into the middle of a banter between Draco and MB and Ron that is 1. actually reasonably funny and 2. up to this point, probably not really pissing Ron off as much as he pretends.
So I'm trying to get a clear picture here -- the scene is the library, with an unusually wide mix of people involved, so there's the danger that a close-knit banter will get opened up and diverted by spectators who weren't meant to be part of it. I wonder if Draco really wasn't just doing an unthinking, automatic smackdown on Justin, who wasn't welcome to interrupt his bonding moment with Ron. Maybe he was as giddy as everyone else due to over-studying, and gave in to the temptation to use a forbidden word behind the mask of the monkey.
But as soon as it's out of his mouth, Hermione jumps into the conversation, too. First it's just "shut up and go away." Then, even as Draco and Ron continue at it in reasonably good spirits, with Draco hexing Ron's chair and Ron threatening rabbit ears, Hermione starts in with "us" versus "you" -- "We're trying to study, leave us alone," when studying is probably the last thing Ron or Harry are in the mood for.
Around this time, Harry, who has been quiet but presumably present, jumps in as a kind of peacemaker. He makes a joke about Hermione getting really excited about chairs, and seems to strike a conspicuously neutral tone, not favoring one or the other but humoring them both. Then there's a longish gap, and back on the main thread we see Harry trying to persuade Ron and Hermione to come back to Gryffindor.
So all this makes me a little more forgiving of Draco and maybe a little more judgmental about Hermione. Sure, she was provoked, but she took the moment to try and force Draco on the defensive over a remark that wasn't directed at her, and forced Harry into an intervention he probably wanted no part of. I can see Harry ending up just generally frustrated with both Hermione and Draco, for baiting each other and for rising to the bait. They seem to have been competing for Harry's approval and decisive support against one another, which is a game Harry wants no part of and which puts him in an uncomfortable position. It sounds like he may have ultimately had to side with Hermione because of the inexcusable nature of the "mudblood" remark, but he probably wasn't happy about the whole situation and it probably made PS really pissy. So, there may be more to PS' anger than "you want to change me," there may be resentment and a sense of rejection that he lost a battle with Granger over Harry's immediate loyalty.
Contrast all this with the way Draco is baiting Hermione on today's Cluedo thread. Things have really festered in the interim, they've gotten really, really ugly. I found PS' remark about Ernie truly vile -- it was an outright threat, implicitly in the name of the Death Eaters. Meanwhile, Hermione seems to have recovered enough confidence to be snubbing Draco much more effectively. Though this may be due more to her relationship with Ernie and the evening of Cluedo, it's certainly going to seem, to Draco, like a by-product of Harry's support for her, and another slap in the face to PS. It's getting to be an explosive situation, I think.
| sistermagpie @ March 30 2004, 02:32:51 UTC |
Ooh! We are so on the same track, especially after the Cleudo thread. Since Harry said something to Draco about his calling Hermione a Mudblood, I assume that that was something that happened off the journals--perhaps after he used the word to Justin.
This really is beginning to seem more and more like Draco feels that Hermione is sort of "back" now and is putting an end to his fantasy of belonging with this group. In fact, and I was thinking of this earlier, it reminds me of the way she cuts him down so devestatingly the first time they meet in canon, where she announces he bought his way onto the Quidditch team. The she jumps in again when Draco is testing Harry, and he may see her coming up to Harry metaphorically, slinging an arm around him and saying, "Piss off, his real friend is here." 10 months ago Draco was accusing Harry of wanting him to turn into Weasley, now it's Granger. Not to condone his use of the word Mudblood, but he's much more at a disadvantage with her than he is with Ron. More importantly, Ron was making an effort while Hermione is openly against the friendship. Harry may be used to Draco as he is, but Hermione seems to see him exactly the way she always has, and probably treated him that way. Draco of course rose to the bait and acted the part.
ps' opening post seems like he's concerned not with racism but with Harry not caring about Hermione the way she made him feel Harry didn't care about him. He seems like he's trying to go over recent events and see Hermione as the one who should be feeling left out. The Ernie comment is him being nasty, proving he's just the way he used to be, but the real substance of what he's saying seems to be more about Harry isolating himself and Ron being with Parvati. I don't know if he's quite confident in asserting himself as being closer to Harry, but he is, I think, testing her for her own insecurities. I don't think he'd ever do that with Ron, because it would be useless.
I wonder, too, if his comment to Ernie was intended not to announce "I am a big DE!" feeling but to make Ernie paranoid about who he's hanging out with. When Hermione says Justin's his best friend he pretends she's agreeing with the idea that this "marks" Ernie for danger, but doesn't care about putting him in more because she thinks he's already doomed.
| black_dog @ March 30 2004, 15:31:28 UTC |
I assume that that was something that happened off the journals--perhaps after he used the word to Justin.
I think so too. There's about a half-hour gap, with very few comments, between the point where Ron and Draco are still teasing each other and Harry is humoring everyone, and the more subdued comment when Harry asks if everyone wants to go back to Gryffindor. I suspect the argument got out of control, here, offscreen.
You know, on reflection I'm wondering if PS initial use of the term "mudblood" was even as bad as it seems -- it may even be self-deprecating to put a racist term he's been associated with in the mouth of a gorilla, as though he's ridiculing his own prejudices. But then, of course, he can't resist conforming to Hermione's worst sense of him, and with Harry he ends up defiantly taking ownership of a word he may not even have meant, just so he doesn't have to expose too much about what he was doing.
This really is beginning to seem more and more like Draco feels that Hermione is sort of "back" now and is putting an end to his fantasy of belonging with this group . . . 10 months ago Draco was accusing Harry of wanting him to turn into Weasley, now it's Granger.
Yeah, I think the key to his insecurity is the fear that he can never matter as much to Harry, will never be taken as seriously, as Ron and Hermione. In the Nraged chat last year, that point was explicitly made about the very early stages of their friendship -- that Draco always felt he was a stopgap and Harry would go running back to Ron at the first chance. We're way past that now regarding Ron, of course, and it's much more complicated and balanced. But with Hermione, the feelings are still a little raw. Here's this person who is spoiling for a fight that's none of her business, and being much more of a jerk than Draco, and Harry in a pinch will side with her. So maybe it's irrational but natural for Draco to feel that in Harry's eyes, he's missing something fundamental that makes him a lower order of being than Ron or Hermione -- hence his assumption that Harry wants to change or remake him.
ps' opening post seems like he's concerned not with racism but with Harry not caring about Hermione the way she made him feel Harry didn't care about him . . . he is, I think, testing her for her own insecurities.
Absolutely. Let us count the ways Draco is projecting his own feelings onto Hermione -- and seeing whether they resonate. I mean, take his very first comment: That rather sums up your life well, doesn't it . . . in the corner playing board games . . . while your friends don't seem to notice you're gone. This from the boy who spent the evening playing Literati. And Ron has gotten over you. And your friends pay more attention to me than they do to you. It's such an "oh, the poor w00bie" moment!
But I do find a real bite in his remark about Ernie. It's like he's feeling impotent and frustrated and wants to demonstrate, in the ugliest possible way, that he still has teeth. I found it a jarring remark, totally different in tone from the junior-high feel of his other taunts. But maybe it's a good example of how easily that kind of schoolyard hurtfulness turns into a genuinely adult evil.
I guess I should add, while I'm dumping on Hermione about her behavior toward Draco, that I really like the sides of her character that are coming out as she hangs out with Ernie, Lisa, and the others. She seemed so loosened-up and fun in the Cluedo post, and I love the fact that she's changed her journal name to "Mistress White!"
| sistermagpie @ March 30 2004, 16:54:31 UTC |
But then, of course, he can't resist conforming to Hermione's worst sense of him, and with Harry he ends up defiantly taking ownership of a word he may not even have meant....
We certainly know that's in character for him. It's also in character for him to do something hurtful and then be overwhelmed by how angry everyone gets--like when he threw mud and blood last year. He won't ever take it back but he'll show some panic.
But maybe it's a good example of how easily that kind of schoolyard hurtfulness turns into a genuinely adult evil.
I think it also says something about racism in general. It's built-in "teeth." It gives him back up he doesn't have otherwise (Voldemort). Also, it occurs to me we can't really know exactly how he feels about the issue. I mean...I think it's tempting for us to think he underneath knows that he's just being a jerk, but perhaps it's just impossible for someone who's not a Pureblood to really understand what that word means.
She seemed so loosened-up and fun in the Cluedo post, and I love the fact that she's changed her journal name to "Mistress White!"
To me the two seemed directly related. Hermione's Cleudo post is almost self-consciously loosened-up and fun: "Well, my friends and I just had the best time on Friday night. La, what fun to be a crazy teenager at school!" She's positively basking in her new popularity and social life: "Goodness Ron, where did those new userpics come from?" "Ernie, I hope you know where Liver is because that is another old joke of ours, along with Miss Scarlett's suspicious behavior!" "Lisa, I shall change your mind about Professor Plum so our game isn't so sexist." And I do think she's quite happily gloating it over Malfoy as well: "That's kind of you to notice. My, you do keep tabs. I can't be bothered with all the people who like me!" I don't mean to make her sound obnoxious, just very very happy with her social success.
I mean, let's get real here: Hermione played a board game with Lisa and Ernie. How many other characters would consider this worthy of a detailed post and a change in journal name? For Hermione, imo, this is a triumph and a concerted attempt to establish her own social position and feel liked. Not only do her Clue buddies like her, but Ron and Harry are still her best friends as well.
Harry doesn't comment on her thread to say he's glad she had fun, or jump in against Draco. I wonder, if he read it, what his reaction was. Hermione interfered negatively in his fight with Draco (possibly after interfering negatively earlier) and dismissed their relationship, then had fun at the party while Harry, as usual, was in the bathroom. (Heh--even when Harry is having fun at a party he's in the bathroom, but with Draco.) M.B. seemed to indicate Harry was angry at Hermione, and I would almost be surprised if he wasn't still angry at her because Harry doesn't get angry over nothing. Not to mention that Hermione was having fun with Ernie himself, whom Harry brought up as a limited parallel to Draco. (In fact, Ernie is even great at making up stories.)
So I just feel like...there is something going on here with Hermione that's very believeable and well-done, but also aggressive and self-interested. It's not that she's become a villain or anything, but I feel like she's really joining the other characters in looking after her own interests--which is all for the better. These do seem like accurate flaws for Hermione to have. And it's more interesting for her with ps as well, because it seems fitting he'd be the person to possibly see what she was doing without quite being able to call her on it because he does the same thing himself. Hermione may be finally giving him some insight into her he could use instead of her bloodline.
I mean, even her mood in her post is "satisfied." Which is cool because a lot of the time she seems almost "smug.":-)
| black_dog @ March 30 2004, 17:27:19 UTC |
Hermione's Cleudo post is almost self-consciously loosened-up and fun . . . I don't mean to make her sound obnoxious, just very very happy with her social success . . . I mean, even her mood in her post is "satisfied."
Go Ernie! Didn't know he had it in him :) < / sexism>
But you're right -- she actually seems a little manic, though I'm not sure if it's calculated or if she's just opening up to some new experiences and feeling genuinely exhilarated. I mean, it is a big deal for Hermione to spend an evening playing a board game with new friends -- she doesn't do that stuff, she's mostly solitary and bookish and probably a bit lonely. And here she went and had a great time, and people she's never really hung out with socially before seem to like her -- it's good for her, but it's also maybe new for her.
I guess it could be a negative thing, a pose she's assuming in response to Ron and Harry moving on; but my gut reaction is that it's all fallout from her relationship with Ernie. She's just happier. As for her nastiness to Draco -- well, she has plenty of reason for it, but to turn your point on its head, perhaps she's bringing to bear her own knowledge of loneliness and rejection to find Draco's weak spots. By the rule that whoever escalates and argument is probably losing it, Hermione seemed to be getting the better of Draco on her latest post.
It's still true, though, that Hermione's attack on Draco is hurting Harry. And I agree with you that there is probably a serious rift here, at this point -- that Harry is probably really annoyed at her for all sorts of reasons. I agree that it's significant that Harry didn't pop up and defend her when Draco took her on. She got into it -- let her get out of it by herself. And when she finally catches her breath, let her look beyond her own circumstances and realize that loyalty is a two-way street.
| sistermagpie @ March 30 2004, 18:58:09 UTC |
though I'm not sure if it's calculated or if she's just opening up to some new experiences and feeling genuinely exhilarated.
Oh I totally agree-that's basically what I mean. She is, imo, exhilarated by the experience and wants it to mean as much as possible. That makes her vulnerable too, though, because she's sticking herself out there. I think she just got more and more happy that people commented and she could joke around with everyone more. I don't think it's calculated, but I do think she's very aware of the significance for her. It's like...I don't think she's trying to manipulate; I think she's hoping to get a positive response. She's gotten one by the time Malfoy steps in. Had he been the only one to comment she might have been less adept at dealing with him.
And I do think she's absolutely using her own weak spots to suss out where Draco's are as well--but before she could do that from a more protected position as someone who was above wanting lots of friends for herself and was patiently waiting for Harry to tire of Draco. Now, while she's getting the upper hand with her nice evening, she's also got more to lose. Plus, we don't know exactly what her feelings about Ron and Parvati or Harry are. I mean, whatever Hermione wants Harry to feel about Draco he did spend the evening in the bathroom and I do think he was thinking about him. If Draco is, for lack of a better word, Harry's boyfriend then he does mean something special to him that Hermione can't replace. I honestly can't say what Harry's response to that would be, but perhaps he would feel angry at this turn of events.
Hmmm...and since you mentioned Ernie the Satisfying (LOL!) I wonder if the paragraph about him had Harry in mind at all? I mean, that subject was brought up by Harry and Hermione was a bit flustered by it. Is she making a point of advertising Ernie's value to Harry? I'm not sure, as Ernie probably was just wicked good at coming up with stories for Clue. I don't think Hermione would *use* Ernie to get at Harry at all, I just mean maybe she's got all the more reason to see his good points about now.
In trying to think about exactly what it is that Harry and Draco do have going for them, I think their committment to their relationship, which each feels is stronger than the other's, is probably one of them. It's like...Seamus suggested that Harry throw himself into a different social situation at the party to feel better about Draco, almost like Hermione found herself a new group of people and sort of re-invented herself a little as Mistress White. (Not the same, exactly, I know.)
Draco and Harry both seem to be hurting, but they're hurting in isolation, sticking with M.B. and Ron. Those two are both supportive of their relationship in ways no other people seem to be. Both have made an effort with the object of their "brother's" affections. So whatever seems to be going on with jh and ps at the moment, they both seem to be just as focused on the other and on their relationship as ever.
I'm going down M.B.'s post...Draco was fighting with Potter, Potter with Granger, Granger with Weasley, Weasley with puberty. Ron seems to be getting the better of puberty for now with Parvati, with Hermione's relationship with Ernie going strong she's got no reason to be angry at Ron. But perhaps jh and ps are dealing with more serious things here.
My secret wish is that if Harry goes to France, Draco will make good use of his apparating license--he's been known to not be in France when he was supposed to be. Why not the opposite?
| black_dog @ March 30 2004, 19:49:26 UTC |
That makes her vulnerable too, though, because she's sticking herself out there.
Setting herself up for a crash, maybe, as many manic people do. A quarrel with her new friends, or a few too many false notes, after she's burned bridges with Harry and Ron . . . I hope not, because I kind of like the new, more extroverted Hermione (except for the Draco stuff.)
I don't think Hermione would *use* Ernie to get at Harry at all, I just mean maybe she's got all the more reason to see his good points about now.
Yeah, I don't see her explicitly doing this either. Being inconsiderate to Harry is one thing, because it's by definition a thoughtless thing to do, and she's just full of her own loathing for Draco. But consciously snapping or snarking at Harry, or even deliberately taunting him would be a major step, and I would be shocked to see her taking it. What she may be doing is making a sort of half-announcement, publicly signalling that Ernie is important to her without defining the relationship further. I think even Harry would recognize her right to do this, and not take it personally.
In trying to think about exactly what it is that Harry and Draco do have going for them. I think their committment to their relationship, which each feels is stronger than the other's, is probably one of them.
Yeah, it's worth reminding oneself why we're rooting for Harry and Draco, why they seem so right for each other. This is a relationship based on mutual need, I think -- each sees something in the other that, not to be too sappy, potentially completes him. To put it extremely schematically -- Harry needs Draco's vital energy, Draco needs Harry's centeredness and strength of character. But the fact that they need it doesn't mean that they're going to get it. It's not, I don't think, a simple or immediately gratifying attraction like Hermione and Ernie, it's more of a fascination that gives them an incentive to push past local static and interpersonal obstacles. But that also makes for a more fraught power relationship, because if the other person has something you desperately need, he can play games and withhold it, too.
Don't ask me for reasons to be optimistic, though, because I'm frankly not optimistic -- I hope they work it out, but it's been a while, frankly, since I felt any confidence that they could. (Except for the logic of the story as a whole, and the way it demands a happy ending. But for a reader to rely on that rather to observe character is cheating.) I think PS is too messed up to make it work. I think Harry is at the end of his patience. I look forward to seeing the solution the players come up with, which should be brilliant if the past quality of the game is any guide. But it will be a surprise, because I honestly can't figure out how we get to a happy ending from here.
My secret wish is that if Harry goes to France, Draco will make good use of his apparating license
Mine too! But could PS do that, without doing violence to the integrity of his character?
| sistermagpie @ March 30 2004, 22:35:07 UTC |
Oh god, my whole post got eaten practically.>:-\
I think even Harry would recognize her right to do this, and not take it personally.
I think Harry's made that clear--he only brought up Ernie because Hermione said Draco was pointless. I doubt it's crossed Harry's mind to take Hermione's relationship with Ernie personally, but it seems important to Hermione to believe she's making a new acceptable friend while Harry's relationship is a mistake.
I think -- each sees something in the other that, not to be too sappy, potentially completes him.
But we should also be careful about assuming what it is they get from each other, since we don't even see them alone. I mean, Draco would never say he liked Harry for his strength of character, and Harry would probably just say Draco made him laugh, or something.
I honestly can't figure out how we get to a happy ending from here...But could PS do that, without doing violence to the integrity of his character?
I think he could, but I don't expect it. It seems very IC for him to pop up unexpectedly to get a reaction from Harry. Showing up on bent knee with roses would be OOC, but not showing up, period.
I don't feel particularly pessimistic myself. I don't feel optimistic either.:-) To me suggesting Draco's just too messed up and Harry's losing patience suggests Harry is just what Draco's accused him of-somebody who liked the potential he saw in Draco and has gotten tired of waiting for it to appear, an attitude that seems guaranteed to get the worst behavior from Draco when he senses it. Plus Harry seemed to be trying to say very strongly that he thought this was worth it when others, including Draco, he thought, didn't.
The thing is, I feel like Draco (and his player) have had a lot going on this year we can't really know about, but that have a consistent theme that comes back to the DEs. It's believeable to me that it's on his mind and something he's been throwing out in his posts. If he's going to change his mind about his chosen career in the DEs I think it's going to have to happen violently. When Harry almost kissed him he first ran away and threw up. Then he used it to hurt Harry. This caused everything to crash down im and his parents left him twisting in the wind. He fell further than most students could imagine, but it was good for him and homophobia hasn't been an issue for him again. He's not hanging rainbow flags, but I don't feel like the word "queer" is always about to pop out the way I am Mudblood, even after Ron's saying he was Harry's boyfriend. In fact, it could have given him the courage to finally be what he was. Yet perhaps importantly, he never officially "gave in" on this issue.
So I just feel like I don't know if he has it in him to quietly extricate himself from his father's influence, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have it in him to do anything but be destroyed. So to get back to the library, Draco calls H a Mudblood after he hasn't for a long while. Harry says he thought Draco had refrained for him. Draco says he hadn't. But clearly he had stopped using the word, so why did he? Is it really bad if he doesn't want to claim it was for Harry? Because to me it seems more important that he find some reason for himself not to use the word. Even if it was connected to Harry, I think it's better if it was his choice and not something he was doing for a reward. Draco's denying he did it for Harry doesn't undo it.
Especially given this situation, I can see Draco seeing it like, okay, I have just been hanging out with you. Now I find out you've been giving me good marks because I haven't said Mudblood in X amount of days when you shouldn't be counting. I have been earning your company rather than hanging out with you as a friend. It just has this undercurrent of judgment that it seems like Draco's sensitive about, even while he thinks it's so appropriate in certain authority figures like his father. I don't blame Harry for their fight at all, but if he thought Draco had stopped using the word for him maybe he did come down on him in a way that made Draco feel humiliated.
| black_dog @ March 31 2004, 10:17:23 UTC |
Now I find out you've been giving me good marks because I haven't said Mudblood in X amount of days when you shouldn't be counting. I have been earning your company rather than hanging out with you as a friend. It just has this undercurrent of judgment that it seems like Draco's sensitive about
Just thinking more about this -- I continue to feel that Draco's use of the term "Mudblood" was not the same kind of thing, here, as when he's used it in the past. It was the monkey! It was in the context of a very silly game, and maybe had an element of self-parody to it. Yes, it was inappropriate and an off-note, but then Hermione went and got all serious about it and there was no way he could apologize to her and he got his back up. Without letting Draco entirely off the hook, I can see him finding the situation fundamentally unfair, with everyone, even Harry, piling on.
if [Harry] thought Draco had stopped using the word for him maybe he did come down on him in a way that made Draco feel humiliated.
Since I admit I'm inclined to allow Harry too much insight, I'm trying to think this through, too, from the perspective of Harry's possible insecurities. Maybe he really means it when he says he's not being judgmental, doesn't want Draco to change. Maybe Draco's non-use of the term is one of the crumbs Harry hoards to reassure himself that Draco really likes him, so that it seemed a slap to Harry as well as to Hermione. In that case, "why did you say that?" means "are you not making the effort because you're getting tired of me?" rather than "I thought you had changed for me!"
And so they react on one another's insecurities -- Harry is upset and lashes out, and Draco feels patronized, taken on approval, exactly in the way you describe.
Is it really bad if he doesn't want to claim it was for Harry? Because to me it seems more important that he find some reason for himself not to use the word.
I suspect, without real evidence, that Draco really was doing it for Harry, and maybe was rethinking some of his prejudices too (remember the book about Nazis), but just couldn't bring himself to admit it. He'd rather pretend to be unregenerate than open up for exposure all the introspection and self-criticism he's been going through. If that's true, it's doubly sad.
To me suggesting Draco's just too messed up and Harry's losing patience suggests Harry is just what Draco's accused him of-somebody who liked the potential he saw in Draco and has gotten tired of waiting for it to appear
Well, yes, but is that unreasonable? It's the potential truth of it that makes it sting, for Draco.
Harry seemed to be trying to say very strongly that he thought this was worth it when others, including Draco, he thought, didn't.
All right, I agree this is cause for hope -- Harry does believe in the relationship and is willing to work very hard for it. I was sort of divided on how I interpreted Harry's remarks at the end of the "estrogen" thread. On the one hand, they are clearly, at least in part, an effort to prod Draco into seeing how serious Harry was about him and how much of a mistake it was for Draco to cut off communication. But I still see a possibility that Draco took resistance too far, that Harry was genuinely shocked that Draco refused to respond to him and cut off communication so brutally, and that Harry is sort of warning Draco that this creates a totally impossible situation.
He fell further than most students could imagine, but it was good for him . . . it could have given him the courage to finally be what he was. Yet perhaps importantly, he never officially "gave in" on this issue.
Interesting -- it may be characteristic of Draco that he grows, quietly, without ever explicitly yielding. That certainly is reason for patience on Harry's part. But I also think that, to date, Draco's development has followed a cycle of advance and retreat, of reaching out and failing. How many times can we watch him back away from a breakthrough before we say he just can't do it? I'm not necessarily arguing the negative case, I just think the game has really undermined any easy confidence we might be tempted to feel, that everything will work out.
| sistermagpie @ March 31 2004, 17:45:42 UTC |
He'd rather pretend to be unregenerate than open up for exposure all the introspection and self-criticism he's been going through.
I feel that way too--and having himself suddenly put on the spot about it made him disavow everything. Plus Lucius has been bringing him further into the DE circle as well, so it's not like Draco has been in a neutral environment.
Well, yes, but is that unreasonable? It's the potential truth of it that makes it sting, for Draco.
It's definitely not unreasonable depending on how Harry expresses it. Harry, imo, treats Draco as an equal rather than set himself up as the morally superior martyr who suffers patiently by loving (and trying to help) somebody not good enough for him. Yet Draco casts Harry in that role anyway. It makes it seem like Draco feels inferior and blames Harry for it rather than himself. (This is a reason I think it's better if Remus and Sirius to stay out of it. Not a good model to follow, imo.)
Harry is sort of warning Draco that this creates a totally impossible situation.
I agree, but it seems like the only way ps could work through this kind of thing if he's going to. They've had stand-offs before, and this one's challenging because Harry's left it up to him to make the move. Incidentally, Draco was the one to leave the conversation 10 months ago as well, with Harry saying, "Fine" as well. This really has to be something Draco has to deal with alone, I think.
I was looking back at that old argument and there are some basic phrases that come up again and again in different variations. Harry says "I don't get what you're doing" and I'm inclined to take that as very honest--Harry feels confused and hurt by Draco's actions because he really can't understand them. And he feels Draco decides what he feels for him.
Draco, otoh, says, "Why does no one listen to me?" He claims Harry dismisses his explanations and also decides what he feels for him. It seems a fitting phrase for somebody who spends so much time yelling for attention feels like nobody listens to him and yet still always talks evasively. It's kind of like...if everything you say is a lie, are you lying when you say you're lying? At his core ps almost seems to be all about somebody who needs very badly to be heard but is also completely muzzled so he never EVER says what he means.
So if I take both boys at their word when they repeat these things. Harry's frustrated by not understanding what Draco's saying and Draco's frustrated at not being understood. It's like ps says, "Listen to me," and Harry says, "I hear what you say, but it doesn't make any sense."
So what is he saying and why doesn't it make sense? What's keeping ps from saying something plainly? Even Lisa can tell he reveals himself more by "letting things slip," than by speaking. His explanation to Harry seems to be, "This is who I am," and Harry is saying, "WHAT is who you are?" So what is he? This honestly doesn't seem to be about him being a DE-supporter, because he doesn't defend his use of the word in terms of race theory. Plus I don't think he'd be ashamed to say that out front. This has to be something he can't say outright.
It seems like what it is is that he's rotten. He agrees with Hermione throughout the conversation--that he is the jerk Harry used to think he was, that he is pointless. Draco seems to have been getting on with Harry and Ron quite well for a while (with Ron twigging to the fact that Draco's insults are not serious), then Hermione points to him and says, "You realize you're still the repulsive creature you always were, right?" And Harry seems to say, "Yeah, it's unfortunate but true." And maybe Draco was hurt by that because he'd started to believe he could be otherwise, had stopped always identifying himself as that when he was with them, so came back with, "Yeah, I am. What did you expect? I like being repulsive. How dare you make me think otherwise for a second?" (I don't mean Draco had started to think of himself as "nice" but maybe just as...fit for the company of others.)
| sistermagpie @ March 31 2004, 20:53:09 UTC |
I chopped out a sentence that I now realize makes something kind of weird:
"It makes it seem like Draco feels inferior and blames Harry for it rather than himself. (This is a reason I think it's better if Remus and Sirius to stay out of it. Not a good model to follow, imo.)"
Where I got the Remus/Sirius reference was just to say that while there were some superficial similarities to the dynamic between the two couples, they seemed like fundamentally different people with different ways of handling each other/themselves, so it seemed it could be a bad idea to assume one illuminated the other.
| sistermagpie @ March 31 2004, 17:45:50 UTC |
(con't) But Harry's got good reason to not believe this answer because Draco *does* show signs of a better person--even Ron sees it. He can say out loud that he hates everyone else, but it would be a lot scarier for him to say out loud that he feels he deserves to be hated himself.
Even if at times this seems obvious (with his running to his hole in response to Colin's outing him as friendless or getting struck by lightning and rain from his own "protection cloud), I don't think it's realistic for 17-year-old Harry or Ron to see it.
It's like...he and Ron got under one level of Draco, where they saw that his bark was worse than his bite, that his insults were just how he talked. But I imagine they think underneath that is an ordinary if weird person who feels at least as comfortable with himself as they do with themselves. Dealing with his perception of himself seems to be more of a problem.
So does that doom the thing to failure? I don't know. I think they're in better shape if Harry fears Draco hates him than if Harry feels like the prognosis on Draco simply doesn't look good. That's why I think Harry's "I don't understand," is so true. I really don't think he's sure how Draco feels about him, which is understandable if Draco's feelings about himself are so bleak. Neither boy said anything about not wanting to be with the other person during their argument--they were both saying the other one made them feel less wanted. If their stand-off comes to both boys pointing at the other and saying, "He doesn't like me," it seems like there's still more to be said between them.
| black_dog @ March 31 2004, 20:54:52 UTC |
So what is he saying and why doesn't it make sense? . . . It seems like what it is is that he's rotten.
This is very plausible, I think -- that there's some real self-loathing under Draco's shiny surface. And so he can't quite believe that Harry likes him for himself; he must be some sort of saintly special project on the part of TBWL, and he's constantly looking for evidence to that effect. Or maybe it's better to say that he vacillates between feeling loved, or feeling that he might be loved, and radically doubting it. Why does he keep doing bad things? "It's me." Its radically his nature, he thinks. Be warned.
But Harry's got good reason to not believe this answer because Draco *does* show signs of a better person
Not to go off on a tangent, but I wonder if it's something even more specific than that. Whenever they get into fights about how frustrating Draco is, Harry uses this odd word-choice that makes it sound like he's omitting something: "Okay, are you saying that this is because I don't get what you're doing?" Or even more clearly: "SORRY THAT I JUST THINK IT'S WEIRD THAT YOU WOULD! I DON'T KNOW WHY I'D THINK THAT, SINCE ALL YOU DO IS ACT LIKE YOU HATE ME AND ALL. "
"That you would" what? Is it wierd enough just that PS is sometimes friendly, sometimes not? I guess I've taken it for granted for a while that their relationship is at least intermittently physical. It just seems to fit, here, that Harry is asking -- how can you be so demonstrative physically and then back off and pretend you hate me? Something of that intensity seems to be behind the intensity of Harry's bafflement.
At his core ps almost seems to be all about somebody who needs very badly to be heard but is also completely muzzled so he never EVER says what he means.
Except in bed, maybe. Or am I obsessing? The thing is, Harry seems to have a powerful reason to think that Draco doesn't hate him, contradicting his other words and actions. I don't know; it's agreeable to think so, anyway.
It's like...he and Ron got under one level of Draco, where they saw that his bark was worse than his bite, that his insults were just how he talked. But I imagine they think underneath that is an ordinary if weird person who feels at least as comfortable with himself as they do with themselves. Dealing with his perception of himself seems to be more of a problem.
So this is a blind spot for Harry? That he doesn't appreciate the element of self-hatred in Draco? Yeah, I can see that. I mean Harry's situation is so much the opposite -- given his past, he must have developed this absolute core of certainty about who he is and why he is valuable, so that maybe he can't even imagine someone having such radical doubts about himself. Harry can get disappointed with other people, can go around moping because the world sucks, but he knows he doesn't suck. *looks innocent as innuendo flies by*
Neither boy said anything about not wanting to be with the other person during their argument--they were both saying the other one made them feel less wanted . . . it seems like there's still more to be said between them.
All right, so this would be, abstractly, the shape of any reconciliation -- that the "more to be said" actually gets said: One of them goes out of his way to convince the other of how much he cares. But how do we get there, given that any demonstration on Harry's part is going to freak Draco out, while Draco is probably too rigid to take the risk. Maybe the solution will only come in a dramatic situation that requires action or protection.
| sistermagpie @ March 31 2004, 22:51:13 UTC |
Or maybe it's better to say that he vacillates between feeling loved, or feeling that he might be loved, and radically doubting it.
This would explain why he's so compelling. If he was only self-loathing he'd probably be more destructive and less likeable. It's the swinging back and forth that draws your eye to him.
Except in bed, maybe.
LOL! Well, I feel it's about time we opened that can of worms! This whole exchange did, to me, seem to have a sexual subtext to it, even if they weren't literally talking about sex. Particularly, perhaps, in Harry's almost hysterical, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" to Hermione when even Ron knew to butt out.
It makes me wonder if Draco is ever reacting to some advance in their physical relationship (assuming they have one) when he freaks out. It would suck pretending you're just fooling around, and being left with these powerful feeling you felt like you had to hide. That would leave anybody feeling vulnerable. jh and ps both feel more committed, and in the Q&A at least they also both denied any serious feeling for each other. Harry says, "You always say "because it's me." Does that refer to the way Draco will often say, "Because he's Potter!" as explanations? Is he fooling around with him "because he's Potter?" and then acting like he hates him for it?
Then we get into the "Why bother?" part which sounds totally like a breakup line. Hermione intrudes seemingly at the most vulnerable moment. Draco backs off, even using his Pansy icon. He's going to sleep in his pointless bed, having nothing better to do...which could of course also have sexual implications. Harry refers to him as "stomping off" which makes me picture Draco in fuzzy slippers, tossing out pillows because Harry will be sleeping on the couch tonight!
I mean Harry's situation is so much the opposite --
Plus, if Harry feels like Draco acts like he hates him, it's possible he doesn't get how much Draco *likes* him. So he might not know how easily he can hurt him.
We tend to take it for granted that Harry acting in a way that makes his feelings clear...but does he? There are times when he shows interest, and is patient with ps. He briefly stalked him and bought him golf clubs. But then, the whole school joked about Draco's stalking before Harry returned the interest. They didn't see each other over the summer as Draco'd hoped. (When he went to visit Harry he was asleep, and jh was often wrapped up in the R/S breakup.) Draco's most treasured possession was something he'd demanded from Harry (twice) while Harry's had nothing to do with Draco. He's said things about Draco not having any real friends in the past. He didn't go see Draco when he was in the infirmary.
I don't mean to say Harry's behaving badly towards Draco. Just that maybe because he is so undemanding and accepting, Draco may see him as another person who doesn't really care. If Draco says he doesn't want to see Harry, Harry doesn't see him, even if he's hurt. By contrast, Millicent has stuffed him into a sack, taped him to her headboard, sat on him, carried him and blown a hole through a stone wall to get to him when he was hurting.
I've just gone back to those hospital days and Harry was doing exactly the same thing then as he is now. Draco pushed him away so Harry didn't go visit him in hospital. Then he started posting about holidays and locking everything up with Ron--maybe they could spend half the summer each at each others' houses. How does this look from Draco's pov? He pushes Harry away, yes, but Harry responds both times by seeking out his many backups and planning to get far away for a block of time (summer vacation, Easter vac when D's party is). Whatever Harry is really doing there, it could easily come across as almost, "Okay, who's next on my list of people I care more about anyway? Ron, let's spend two whole months together-it will be so fun. Sirius and Remus, let's spend the entire week together!"
Have their positions ever been reversed this way? I mean, Draco's not seen Harry because he was angry, but has there ever been a time when Harry wanted to see Draco and Draco was just too busy with other things and people? (Why do I think Mummy was often busy too...)
| black_dog @ April 1 2004, 03:22:59 UTC |
Oh I like all this. There's tremendous potential in seeing Harry's behavior as thoughtless, as making Draco feel disregarded and taken for granted, even if that's not Harry's intention.
Lots of evidence for this -- even in little things, it's Harry who makes Draco wait for him -- when he was first coming over to Slytherin to look for the missing Gulf book, and got sidetracked with Ron; or when Draco sat alone in the library for an hour while Harry worried about Remus. In the Q and A, Harry unhesitatingly named Ron as his best friend while Draco quietly slipped Harry into the list of people he "spent the most time with." If Draco is paranoid or insecure, Harry certainly provides fuel for it.
And yet -- two reservations. First, it is Harry, after all, who extended himself by trying to kiss Draco, and who admitted on Veritaserum night that "you know how I feel about you because I tried to kiss you." He may feel that he made the ultimate gesture, and was rebuffed, and still is not taken entirely seriously, and he's not going to get burned again.
Second, even if Draco has reason to be anxious about Harry's signals, there's also this sort of passive-aggressive sense in which he's begging for rejection. The classic example is when he apparated to Harry's house over the summer, but didn't dare to wake him up. It's almost as if he preferred to cherish the visit as a failure that he could feel bad about. Was he really afraid of Harry's reaction if he'd woken him up? Wouldn't Harry have been delighted?
I like your example about how Narcissa may have taught PS to sense, maybe pre-emptively, that other people were "too busy" for him. There's another thing his family might have taught him, too -- that acting out is a way of demanding attention, that when you throw a fit what you really want is not for the other person to stay away, but for them to redouble their efforts to appease you. So, Draco tells Harry to stay away from his hospital room, and Harry thinks he's honoring PS' wishes. But PS is really trying to provoke an extravagant display of attention by Harry, expecting him to show up despite his protests the way his mother might. And poor Harry, who learned from the Dursleys that "fuck off" means "fuck off," has no idea.
And it might be more than just personal style, too - Harry does have a sort of passive-aggressive streak that comes out when he's upset with someone. He gets drunk and runs away, or hides in the bathroom, making a scene on R and L's wedding night. He made Ron guess why he was upset with him about Lupin's transformation. A lot of this, I think, amounts to relics of an older pattern of behavior, when he used to go around moping all the time -- but he may not be totally over that style of acting out. So maybe there's a little bit of "see, I left you alone like you said you wanted, and you're still complaining," even though Harry should be able to read Draco and know better.
I agree with you about the sexual subtext of many of the lines in the breakup thread -- "my pointless bed," etc. The case for their having a sexual relationship is too big to make here, I just figured I'd state my bias on the issue. We do get tiny hints of physical affection -- Draco sleeping with his head on Harry's shoulder in the cab in London (which somehow ends with Draco's head bouncing off the other window) or wrestling at Dogear when Draco goes to pick up the Snitch he left behind. Was there anything else? But they talk, and fight, and often behave like lovers. I don't know if Draco is recoiling from each new stage of intimacy -- that might be the case; I just come at it from a different speculation, that PS wants to keep the physical intimacy compartmentalized, doesn't want to draw any wider conclusions from it. But that's just my hunch.
Harry says, "You always say "because it's me." Does that refer to the way Draco will often say, "Because he's Potter!"
LOL, this is a great example of the difficulty of interpreting these two -- because I had read "because it's me" as a quote, as Harry mimicing Draco speaking about himself. So -- "I do things to upset you because I'm PS! That's just the way I am!" Which sort of puts all our other speculations into perspective. :)
| sistermagpie @ April 1 2004, 05:05:20 UTC |
I had read "because it's me" as a quote, as Harry mimicing Draco speaking about himself.
LOL! It just goes to show Harry was right with his "we" would make more sense comment. It's impossible to tell what they're talking about when they go at it, but they seem to understand each other...like a couple.:-)
If Draco is paranoid or insecure, Harry certainly provides fuel for it.
Yes, and what's so great is that when he's not witholding himself intentionally (hiding at parties, running away because R&S have fought) he can do it without thinking. He was incredibly taken up with Remus and Sirius when they were fighting and Remus was leaving (According to Remus Harry was moved to inappropriately quote Samwise to him as he left which kind of blows anybody else in Harry's life out of the water).
Meanwhile, when Harry was injured, there was a waiting list to get to him. (Harry asked for ps in the middle in the night, right?) I could believe that at the Dursleys, if Harry was depressed, he was exceptionally hard to wake up. When kicking him didn't work Draco may have felt discouraged, and I suppose he may also have felt if Harry was fast asleep it showed Harry didn't care about his coming. Harry "ruined it" maybe.
Also, but does jh ever post about Malfoy? To read his posts, and his bio, you wouldn't know Draco existed. Draco's lj is all about Harry. Of course Harry may be nervous about saying the wrong thing and maybe he feels Draco doesn't want him to post about it (maybe he's told him not to)...but then, he seems to make a point of talking about his "real" friends and family whenever he does post.
So, Draco tells Harry to stay away from his hospital room, and Harry thinks he's honoring PS' wishes. But PS is really trying to provoke an extravagant display of attention by Harry, expecting him to show up despite his protests the way his mother might.
Though he would want it to be a show of affection he believed, not one he could see as a big show about Harry instead of himself (which is how he sometimes seems to regard Narcissa's). Affection, to Draco, seems to require not just extravagant displays but a being there even after he's been at his worst. Harry feels that's the true test of love as well, I think he said.
First, it is Harry, after all, who extended himself by trying to kiss Draco, and who admitted on Veritaserum night that "you know how I feel about you because I tried to kiss you." He may feel that he made the ultimate gesture, and was rebuffed, and still is not taken entirely seriously, and he's not going to get burned again.
True--but when Harry says, "You know how I feel about you because I tried to kiss you," what does that mean? It could just mean, "You know I want to fuck you." What kind of relationship did jh and ps have the night of the kiss? Tell me if I'm remembering this wrong, but didn't Harry start making overtures to ps, offering him his grottle prize, asking him about Quidditch? Those seemed to be the first signs he'd developed a crush, and then soon after that he tried to kiss him after the party made him wish he had somebody like R had S.
So would Draco necessarily read the kiss as meaning he meant something to Harry, coming out of nowhere? Originally he didn't get Harry was gay. He thought he was kidding--and the joke alone made him run away and throw up. (Was he just disgusted at the idea of homosexual sex? Terrified that Harry had figured him out? Confused and shocked at a suggestion he'd never considered? It's hard to know since we really know what Draco thinks about homosexuality now.) But sexual interest does not have to mean love or respect or even affection. It could be, as Hermione thinks, just something to do with looks and Quidditch.
Of course Draco meanwhile screams about not wanting to be Harry's bf won't call anybody his friend. So it's not like you can say Harry's wrong here. But look at how hysterical Draco got over Ron "stomping" on his plan to take Harry to the Falcons game. Harry was depressed over losing his summer with his godfathers, but he didn't seem too put out by missing Draco's visit. It seemed like just part of the general suckiness of the summer.
I really can't imagine what this party is going to be like.
| black_dog @ April 1 2004, 09:54:26 UTC |
These two have really tied their relationship in knots, haven't they? These are great points, and they make me realize more concretely how difficult a situation they've created for each other.
does jh ever post about Malfoy?
Not in the past year, at least. And yet I go through a couple of twists and turns in my reaction to this. We know Harry doesn't really believe much in the journaling project, and his entries are often deliberately banal. In fact he says, at one point, "I guess I just don't have anything to say to anyone that I wouldn't already say to them." At the same time, I wonder if the timing of his posts is more important than the content -- that he posts when he feels a need to make a special channel of communication available to someone.
Apart from that, I think that Harry is very reluctant to talk about private things on his journal, and I agree with you that since Draco has expressed anxiety in the past about seeming too close to Harry, Harry may just be wary of saying anything to make the situation worse.
But if he doesn't post much, I think his comments, over and over again, do reflect his strong interest in Draco. After nearly a year, the Astronomy lesson post remains one of my favorites -- Harry pushes, persuades, cajoles PS into coming to Dogear to work on their project. He refuses to let Draco off the hook, and takes risks to make it clear that he wants to spend time with him.
Although, as you say, he might just want to fuck him. In the Q and A, he makes it clear that his feelings on that subject haven't changed. And this is another impossible situation, because if that's true or even plausible, then any gesture Harry makes is guaranteed to have two possible meanings.
Again, I take a physical relationship for granted, because I think the Q and A is pretty strongly suggestive on this and there are strong hints in the game itself. (Though I think some players have backed away from the "canonicity" of the Q and A, so I don't really know what to think.) But you could also construct a scenario where the relationship is one long challenge of celibacy for JH, with PS constantly testing him to see if he still wants his friendship even though there's no physical payoff. I don't know.
look at how hysterical Draco got over Ron "stomping" on his plan to take Harry to the Falcons game. Harry was depressed over losing his summer with his godfathers, but he didn't seem too put out by missing Draco's visit. It seemed like just part of the general suckiness of the summer.
This sort of thing certainly makes it sound like Harry cares less about spending time with Draco than Draco does with Harry. There's no real parallel in Harry's journal to either the ups or the downs in PS'. Draco's happiness when he's spent some successful time with Harry just leaps off the journal page -- like after their day together in Wiltshire. Harry doesn't often write like that -- maybe the Grottle thing is an exception, but that may have been a calculated attempt to attract or interest Draco. But Harry took the initiative on the Wiltshire visit, didn't he? Isn't that enough for Draco? With respect to the bad times -- in general, Harry doesn't do a lot of feeling-sharing in his journal. It may just be that Harry is more reticent about unhappiness because he thinks of himself as someone who bears a lot of it and has to get used to it.
But all of this, as you say, can appear very insensitive to a volatile person like PS. I guess it's plausible to charge that Harry lacks the skill of making another person feel cared about, but I would be slow to convict him. When he does make the effort with PS he gets misinterpreted -- Draco certainly isn't easy to manage or deal with in that sense. Maybe Harry's main error is to have tolerated too much ambiguity for too long, to have allowed the situation to deteriorate to a point where he just doesn't know what signals to send to Draco. Is he culpable, for having failed to force things to a confrontation that might bring some clarity? Maybe he's afraid to do that, or maybe he just doesn't care enough. But he seems to care a lot. Aaagh!
To look at the other side of it: what responsibility does Draco have, to not be so impossible?
|
a_player @ April 1 2004, 17:49:41 UTC |
(Though I think some players have backed away from the "canonicity" of the Q and A, so I don't really know what to think.)
Everything in them is true, but the characters are also acting exactly like they normally would, by which I mean Draco, for instance, is lying just as often as he normally would. Also being sarcastic. A lot of people, I noticed, didn't realise that Draco was lying fairly often, but the questions he lied in response to were ones he would never answer honestly. If I'd answered honestly I would have been OOC, so I had to sarcasm/lie out of them. Everything Harry said, though, is true, but often you will need to pay attention to his word choices.
The only way I'd say they aren't canon is that the other characters haven't read them or anything. I mean, there is no way to pretend they actually gave Q&A's in game, as it would mean that they somehow were aware that they were RPG characters ... so the fact that the questions took place isn't canon would be the best way to put it, I suppose.
I shall now return to lurking in your conversation.
| black_dog @ April 1 2004, 19:23:20 UTC |
:D Thank you! That is a hugely helpful clarification and I'm glad I can use the Q and A's for evidence (with your cautions in mind) because they are great fun and very suggestive.
I do get the sense that it's necessary to parse Harry's words very carefully. As for PS, I guess I feel a similar need to parse his motives in whatever he says. I sort of assume that his lies are usually relatively transparent, or at least predictable because they are necessary (either to preserve his sense of himself or pragmatically to avoid trouble) -- but you may be saying just that, with your qualification that "the questions he lied on were the ones that he'd never answer honestly."
I still think it's cool that you actually lurk and read these ramblings. I'm so glad the game is back in high gear. :)
| sistermagpie @ April 1 2004, 19:41:37 UTC |
I still think it's cool that you actually lurk and read these ramblings. I'm so glad the game is back in high gear. :)
And I totally see what you mean on Draco lying in his answers--for many of them he couldn't possibly be honest and be himself at the same time.
| sistermagpie @ April 1 2004, 19:39:13 UTC |
that he posts when he feels a need to make a special channel of communication available to someone.
I definitely feel like the timing of Harry's posts are almost more important than the posts themselves. We think of ps' posts as being carefully constructed illusions but Harry's are just as much. There's a lot of "I'm sorry's" and compliments to other people...and often a lot of resentment, either for having to post at all or directed at a situation. When he's angry he talks around it, "You don't have to talk about it in little letters," or "I don't know why some people would think a werewolf transformation is cool." (Harry used to yell at ps directly. Perhaps that hasn't completely changed.)
ps says Harry acts like you're offending him by being and while I'm sure Harry doesn't do *that,* he *is* capable of a certain reproach in his posts. When he's actually happy it stands out.
But you could also construct a scenario where the relationship is one long challenge of celibacy for JH, with PS constantly testing him to see if he still wants his friendship even though there's no physical payoff.
Poor Harry! Though we know he was having sex with someone in the Q&A, so he wasn't going without.:-) If Draco was testing him...how would that work between them, exactly I wonder?
This sort of thing certainly makes it sound like Harry cares less about spending time with Draco than Draco does with Harry. There's no real parallel in Harry's journal to either the ups or the downs in PS'.
Unless it concerns his godfathers. We think of Draco as being the one too focused on his parents, but for a while there Remus seemed to be filling every role for Harry--advisor, father, drinking buddy, the guy he went to rock concerts with (Ron returns when Harry runs away). His troubles played like innocent kid-stuff once he was sulking or dancing in Remus' rooms. Was his flat a home of his own or just a well-furnished bathroom to lock himself in when Remus and Sirius were going crazy? Maybe part of it is that R&S are dealing with Voldemort so they naturally bring up all of Harry's thoughts on that issue, and his guilt about people dying for it. Or maybe Harry doesn't seem himself as having a future, so Remus and Sirius seem like a more logical focus.
I guess it's plausible to charge that Harry lacks the skill of making another person feel cared about, but I would be slow to convict him.
I wouldn't say he lacks the skill in general, but he might not use it with ps as much. Harry seems to try to show his appreciation for people in his journal. I don't think anyone could doubt his feelings for his godfathers. I don't know if I could say he did something "wrong" with Draco...he's made more progress than most. But if he's constantly feeling like he has to protect himself from Malfoy he'd not be putting himself on the line. For instance, maybe it would be easier if Harry would just say he doesn't like the word Mudblood because of X,Y and Z. Maybe that would make it less about Draco becoming a different person, to ps. I don't know.
To look at the other side of it: what responsibility does Draco have, to not be so impossible?
He's got at least half the responsibility to not be impossible! Harry by definition means something to so many people, while ps is sort of the opposite. Both of them seem always prepared to say they don't care when the other leaves. Both of them seem to naturally argue in that roundabout way, with neither one wanting to come out and say, "This is what I want!" They seem naturally to want to be the one wronged. Tied in knots is right!
| sistermagpie @ April 1 2004, 22:46:43 UTC |
Sorry, two more small things. One is that I totally see what you mean on the "Because it's me" reading--I think you're right. More importantly, I went back and looked at Harry's answer to "What is love?" question:
"I think that when you love someone it means that you think of them first. That what matters to them matters to you, just because it matters to them. That sometimes you don't do the things that you want to do or that are important to you, because it's more important to you that they're happy. I think that all of that sounds kind of like facts and not like an emotion, really, but I think that maybe love is more like facts than emotions. That you can feel like you love someone all you want, but until you act like you love someone, you don't really love them at all. ... I don't really think that being in love is very important. I don't think that it means alot. For it to mean something, you have to act like it means something.[/I]
Interestingly, I wonder if Harry has considered the fact that when you have people with opposing values, it's kind of hard for both of them to change. Like...he would consider it a sign that Draco didn't love him if he continued to call Hermione Mudblood when it hurt Harry. But then, Harry's hardly willing to call Hermone a Mudblood himself to make Draco happy, so maybe Draco's got a point buried in his nastiness. If Harry naturally expects that love would mean Draco would put Harry's needs above his own, and Draco thinks love means you accept the other person being themselves and don't want to change them...there's going to be some miscommunication there! And also, if Harry already has this set of facts by which to prove someone loves him or not, he could be rigid in his own way, just as Draco is.
| black_dog @ April 2 2004, 04:46:49 UTC |
We think of ps' posts as being carefully constructed illusions but Harry's are just as much.
It would be a good exercise, and probably not all that time consuming, to run through all of Harry's posts and come up with a sort of typology of the things he uses his journal for. (Yeah, I started doing that tonight and ran out of gas . . . another time, maybe!). But a quick impression is kind of puzzling -- it's often not clear who he's performing for, who he's addressing. His most common entries seem to be narratives of what Remus and Sirius are up to. He often seems to be giving "shoutouts" to his friends (except for PS), but it's not clear that's the main purpose of the post. I think I disagree with you slightly about his expressions of happiness or sadness -- his sadness and anger do come through, occasionally, but it feels almost like he resents having to express it. As for his happy posts -- I'm not sure I agree that his first post from last summer with the Dursleys was happy. I think he was faking it for the sake of his friends. After all, he had barely had time, at that point, to recover from either his injuries or from the devastating news that he couldn't spend the summer at Dogear. Anyway, bottom line, I have a hard time coming up with any generalization about the content of Harry's posts. But that may just be sleepiness; I may think more tomorrow.
If Draco was testing him...how would that work between them, exactly I wonder?
LOL, I'm going to beg off replying to that, because I don't actually believe it, and I don't think I even have to consider it a serious possibility now that we now that the Q and A are factual. Could be wrong, but prefer not to believe so.
| sistermagpie @ April 2 2004, 15:49:28 UTC |
Yeah, I started doing that tonight and ran out of gas . . . another time, maybe!
Me too--we really need to get lives.:-)
But in trying I came up with basically the same impression that you did. I think you may be right about the Dursleys post as well--I took Harry's hilarity at Vernon to be real, and I think I always saw that post as sort of the high at having survived Voldemort's attack before the crash into depression. So I didn't really feel like he was faking it, I just thought his mood was more hysterical than truly happy, maybe.
But back to the first thing, when I picture him saying his posts he always seems like he's probably standing umcomfortably, shifting from foot to foot...maybe the idea is that he doesn't really believe anybody wants to hear what he has to say about how he feels? It's just funny you mentioned not being sure who he was performing for because that's exactly it. Like when Harry starts his post with, "It's the full moon this weekend, you know." Who know? It's a reminder the full moon is coming up while Remus is away and Harry is worried about him, followed by a rant about people annoying him with how they are treating them. The person who seems to tell him what he wants to hear is maybe Seamus who says, "Fuck 'em. Don't apologize..." but then I'm not sure what Harry expects from people. I mean, the first line has this note of other people not caring that it's the full moon, which would probably inspire people to just the kind of behavior he complains about in the rest of the post.
It seems ilke his journal entries don't have one specific tone, he uses it at different times--sometimes just to say, "Sirius?" or to contact Justin. Some big emotional crises make him keep silent (like the outing when he deleted it), others make him use it sort of defiantly, or to show he's just fine...I don't know. It's hard to pin down exactly what his relationship to his own journal is, though I agree his comments indicate things as well, especially to ps.
It's weird because we've certainly been able to see a lot about Harry from the journals. It's just a very limited, inconsistent viewpoint for him. We don't know from it how he is in real life. One thing is that his posts do always leave me feeling like there are things that are unsaid, probably more than what is actually said.
|
a_player @ April 10 2004, 09:45:30 UTC |
At the same time, I wonder if the timing of his posts is more important than the content -- that he posts when he feels a need to make a special channel of communication available to someone.
Apart from that, I think that Harry is very reluctant to talk about private things on his journal, and I agree with you that since Draco has expressed anxiety in the past about seeming too close to Harry, Harry may just be wary of saying anything to make the situation worse.
| black_dog @ April 10 2004, 11:48:27 UTC |
Yay! Stars!!! :)
This one in particular is reassuring, because I don't believe -- don't want to believe -- that the way Harry often passes over PS in his journal really signals indifference. Good to have the contrary hunch confirmed, that he sees it as a way of being discreet.
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a_player @ April 10 2004, 09:44:03 UTC |
Confused and shocked at a suggestion he'd never considered?
| sistermagpie @ April 10 2004, 17:05:33 UTC |
LOL! God, I love ps. He's like a Victorian maiden!
(parent) |
a_player @ April 10 2004, 09:42:03 UTC |
that acting out is a way of demanding attention, that when you throw a fit what you really want is not for the other person to stay away, but for them to redouble their efforts to appease you. So, Draco tells Harry to stay away from his hospital room, and Harry thinks he's honoring PS' wishes. But PS is really trying to provoke an extravagant display of attention by Harry, expecting him to show up despite his protests the way his mother might. And poor Harry, who learned from the Dursleys that "fuck off" means "fuck off," has no idea.
We do get tiny hints of physical affection -- Draco sleeping with his head on Harry's shoulder in the cab in London (which somehow ends with Draco's head bouncing off the other window) or wrestling at Dogear when Draco goes to pick up the Snitch he left behind. Was there anything else? But they talk, and fight, and often behave like lovers.
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a_player @ April 10 2004, 12:32:51 UTC |
You already said that when I starred your Clintonian distinction! hahaha!
(parent)| black_dog @ April 10 2004, 13:38:17 UTC |
Am hapless fanboy. Am allowed to babble and repeat myself! :)
(parent) |
a_player @ April 10 2004, 09:38:32 UTC |
Ugh, I waited so long until you guys were done that now I can't even remember where I wanted to star!
Harry says, "You always say "because it's me." Does that refer to the way Draco will often say, "Because he's Potter!" as explanations? Is he fooling around with him "because he's Potter?"
Plus, if Harry feels like Draco acts like he hates him, it's possible he doesn't get how much Draco *likes* him. So he might not know how easily he can hurt him.
| sistermagpie @ April 10 2004, 17:04:45 UTC |
1) Aaaah! Bad button of insecurity for Harry! Poor Harry!
Glad you cleared that up though--I had totally convinced myself I was wrong in understanding Harry with that sentence.
2) Waaah! So much at stake!
Here Harry wants somebody who really likes him, but he unintentionally hurts somebody who really does like him because he (understandably) doesn't believe it!
This must be why recently I keep getting a picture of that day in Hogsmeade after the duel when Draco saw Lucius and Lucius snubbed him and I picture him being completely heartbroken before he covers it up.
:sigh: He's such an idiot.:-)
| black_dog @ March 30 2004, 01:02:28 UTC |
And look! I managed to get distracted from your main point, which was that Draco's behavior is all about a rigidity that goes very deep into his personality and his past. I completely agree with this, although I think it doesn't change the fact that this rigidity is going to cost him, that he's going to be very unhappy if he can't break out of it after all. Maybe that doesn't make a good choice more likely, but it makes Draco's bad choice more tragic.
You make a fair point about not crediting Harry with too much wisdom. I don't know, though -- I think he sees what's going on with Draco better than Draco understands himself. But you've got me wondering, now, if there were different things Harry might have said in the "estrogen" thread to create a better outcome -- if there were things he didn't have the presence of mind to pick up on and address. Do you see any missed opportunities, that might suggest blind spots on Harry's part? I want to think about this more.
| sistermagpie @ March 30 2004, 03:44:58 UTC |
Maybe that doesn't make a good choice more likely, but it makes Draco's bad choice more tragic.
One thing that does give me hope, though, is that when you think about it, Draco often does go after what he wants. That is, he's a brat. It's hard to imagine him quietly accepting less than he wants. Even joining the DEs wouldn't help him there. After the non-kiss he ignored Harry to a point and then exploded with proof that he'd been watching him the whole time. Also, after the outing, didn't Draco track Harry down and ask him why he was gay (and hit him)? And didn't he hunt Harry down after his comments about Draco having no friends (and hit him)? For years he kept stalking him--and there was also that time he "stalked" him on the journals, trying to work out something. Not that this is good behavior here, but it does show, at least, that while Harry might be willing to just accept things aren't to be, Draco eventually starts jumping up and down for attention.
He was very quiet all weekend, but he may be gearing up to do *something.* Would he really let Harry walk away and forget him? Perhaps he's now testing to see when Harry would jump in to defend Hermone now? Like, to get a sense of exactly what line he crossed? He may not be just planning some kind of maneouver. If we're lucky, M.B. will be involved so they'll be a cooler head.
I think he sees what's going on with Draco better than Draco understands himself.
Definitely. LOL-Though at this point so does Ron. Draco's incredibly dense.:-)
I guess Harry has no real way of knowing exactly how that incident from a week before morphed into this post by ps. That's got to put him at somewhat of a disadvantage, because he's trying to be logical. But it would certainly be worth it to look through their exchanges again to see how it played out!!
They do wind up both in opposite trenches at some points, though Harry is the usually one trying to move them forward...but maybe not always. The confrontation reaches a peak with Draco's challenging Harry on whether it's only Hermione he can't call a Mudblood by using the word on Dean, Justin and Colin. It's a real peak moment, then Harry completely dissipates it by saying, "If you just want to pretend to be stupid, fine." They stagger a bit lamely after that with Draco's "At least I have to pretend" etc.
Then they get into Draco's imitation of Harry's "Why are you doing this?" Malfoy with Harry allegedly not believing him, and Harry explaining why he should he believe him when Draco always pretends it's all about Harry. Draco calms down again after Harry claims Draco acts like he hates him...perhaps the point Draco is trying to make is that when he does these things he's not "acting like he hates" Harry?
Then they get into the "Why bother?" which brings Hermione back in. I can't help but notice Draco uses his "shapely girlfriend" icon only once, in response to Harry saying if he agreed with Hermione this was pointless he would no longer be at the computer. To me that sounds like the most "Can this marriage be saved" comment of jh's, and yet Draco replies that Harry's just trying to prove himself right--with his girlfriend icon--and Harry starts yelling again.
Harry asks, "Right about what?" and Draco doesn't answer. While in many ways Draco's far more dishonest here, I do wonder if he is the one trying to confront the Pureblood superiority issue while Harry dodges it. I mean, doesn't Harry kind of have to be right on the Pureblood issue? If Draco is beginning to feel he's wrong, and is projecting his own guilt onto Harry like it's coming from him, Harry has good reason to feel confused. But at the same time...isn't it obvious that Harry does want to be right about that? His mother's a Mudblood, after all.
::sigh:: So I don't know. I don't think Harry could possibly be in control or have total understanding here because Draco's so erratic. I think there's times when Harry gets him, but other times is genuinely confused for good reason. Harry has perhaps long ago figured out exactly how he can like Draco despite his ideology, but perhaps Draco is just getting to that point where he wants to know how or why?
| sistermagpie @ March 29 2004, 00:21:36 UTC |
Off course it's con't...
I'd love to hear your thoughts about Harry's feelings towards the Hufflepuffs (still unresolved after LYNW). Obviously he's not just into ultimatums about who people can and can't date, since he's with Draco, who's always hated his friends, and who called him him queer himself. I remember feeling like Harry was reacting strongly to Hermione's easy, almost triumphant dismissal of this relationship that's important to him as pointless (did she once say she figured the whole thing was based on Draco's good looks at Quidditch?). It was as if she'd been watching the experiment all this time and was pleased Harry had finally come to the conclusion she'd worked out long ago, that it was doomed to failure.
I thought that maybe led him to almost defend his relationsip by saying Draco wasn't the only attention-seeker or bigot and demanding honesty about that. Harry dealt with Draco's homophobia head-on, and they resolved it. Presumably they could resolve the Mudblood issue the same way, with more work. I mean, I could see why Hermione dismissing Draco as just a pathetic bigot who was never anything more would be upsetting to him now. Hermione's response was also tellingly flustered, when she was insisting Ernie was "nothing like Draco" because he picked on people for no reason when Harry hadn't done anything to Ernie by being gay.
I also thought it was neat the way Harry framed Hermione's troubles with Ernie, defending Ron. He said it wasn't Ron who "ruined" things between them by posting the poll, it was Ernie's reaction to the poll that made things uncomfortable. That seemed to say the only people who can destroy your friendship are the people in it. Or maybe he was just wanting to side with Ron because for all his faults Ron does seem to have a clue concerning Draco at this point, something he earned through sometimes clumsy support. Harry had, after all, gone something similar with Ron's equally bad, "Stay away from Harry's boyfriend!" post, where Draco overreacted and was rightly pointed to as the one ruining things. So I think that line was a swipe at Draco as well, since he seems so set on letting other people influence their relationship.
I can't wait to see what happens with this...
| black_dog @ March 29 2004, 04:35:25 UTC |
I'd love to hear your thoughts about Harry's feelings towards the Hufflepuffs
LOL, I doubt he loses any sleep over them. I think Harry's baseline expectations from human nature are pretty low, and the Hufflepuffs abundantly fulfill them. Canonically in COS Justin and Ernie are paranoid and hostile, and assuming NA is non-OOTP canon, nothing's changed. I suspect LYNW confirmed Harry's sense that Justin is a waste of protoplasm. I mean, he's made overtures (flying together, etc.) and been rebuffed and has probably just shrugged it off at this point.
The Ernie/Hermione thing is kind of interesting, but I doubt it's radically different from Harry's perspective. I guess if Ernie is going to be part of Hermione's life, Harry will make some effort to come to terms with him, at least in terms of superficial civil relations, just as he expects his friends to do the same for his sake regarding Draco. But I don't think Harry was angry or venting at Ernie so much in the "queer" remark as he was making a point to Hermione. I think Harry is loyal to his friends but also demands that they respect his choices -- and was offering the example of how he was willing to respect Hermione's choice.
I remember feeling like Harry was reacting strongly to Hermione's easy, almost triumphant dismissal of this relationship that's important to him
I completely agree, and I think he was very angry at Hermione about the implicit disrespect. Not a friendship-ending anger, in itself, but certainly an occasion for warning Hermione that this is not something he expects or will put up with from his friends. I suspect he was disappointed that Hermione never engaged Draco the way Ron did.
I think it was Veritaserum night when Hermione made the comment about Quidditch and attractiveness, and she's really never made the effort to move beyond that. I mean, it's not like Ron's reconciliation with Draco was a smooth process, or that he didn't have as much to forgive Draco for. So I suspect that Harry starts from a vague disappointment with Hermione on that issue, although he probably accepts it as just one thing she can't get over. I think it also matters that his relationship with Draco is at a crisis. If, on top of generally showing disrespect for the relationship, Hermione starts gloating about a breakup, that's going to be a problem.
It's fascinating to see Harry's argument with Hermione as an example of the way he stands firm with his friends on matters of his own self-respect. He zeroed in on Hermione's fundamental assumption, warning her very plainly that his relationship with Draco was worth fighting for, and he hit her very aggressively with the Ernie argument. He wasn't dismissing her or venting at her, but he was quite firmly correcting her and laying down the limits of what he was willing to hear from someone who wanted to be considered a friend.
Presumably they could resolve the Mudblood issue the same way, with more work.
I wonder if it's less a matter of expecting people to "work on" or "get over" their differences and more a matter of accepting people's flaws and being willing to deal with them in a constructive way. I think he accepts that Hermione will never like Draco but expects her to deal with it and not sabotage his own emotional life over her personal grudges, no matter how well-earned.
I'm glad Ron got her to butt out before things got out of hand, but I would love to have been privy to the Ron/Hermione conversation that must have followed -- and I wonder, given their temperaments, if Ron was able to get through to her. I do think NA!Hermione has become almost marginal in Ron and Harry's lives, and I wonder how much this bothers Hermione and maybe contributed to her willingness to gloat. What's your take on her relationship with the two of them at this point? I'd love to get more insight into her character.
| sistermagpie @ March 29 2004, 05:36:20 UTC |
LOL, I doubt he loses any sleep over them. I think Harry's baseline expectations from human nature are pretty low, and the Hufflepuffs abundantly fulfill them.
Yes, I think that's pretty much how he sees them. I think he shrugs it off, but remembers. I also felt the same way about the point he was making to Hermione, that it was about his being okay with E/H because Hermione was his friend, not because Ernie was a great guy, rather than being angry at the homophobia.
If, on top of generally showing disrespect for the relationship, Hermione starts gloating about a breakup, that's going to be a problem.
Yes, I do think it would be. And his line to her about calling it pointless, which she may have felt was harsh because she didn't mean it quite that way, wasn't Harry being self-pitying, imo. I don't think Harry would have said it if he didn't think it was true, and if he thinks it's true it's not just based on her comments on this thread.
I think he accepts that Hermione will never like Draco but expects her to deal with it and not sabotage his own emotional life over her personal grudges, no matter how well-earned.
Yes--though he wouldn't allow Draco to call her a Mudblood without shutting him up either. It makes me wonder just what went on in the library, in fact. I'm not sure how much contact Hermione and Draco have really had. Draco seems to have been testing something with his comment, using a word he hadn't used in a long time, and I wonder if there was anything specific in the situation that inspired him to do it (rather than his just testing Harry with the word). Like...was Hermione making Draco feel he wasn't really Harry's friend? Did she put him on the defensive? Because that would almost escalate it into a Draco vs. Hermione thing, where Draco was also testing if Harry would let him defend himself any way he wanted to. It would also maybe make Harry more sensitive about Hermione if he felt she started it, even if Draco ended it badly. I'm not sure, though, as in the thread Draco used the word Mudblood to Justin and then Harry asked Hermione if she wanted to leave. Perhaps that was after he'd used the word to Hermione.
What's your take on her relationship with the two of them at this point? I'd love to get more insight into her character.
I'm not sure, but her latest exchanges have been brilliant! She was so sporadic for a while, but presumably still dealing with both boys off the journals. But when it came to H/D she really didn't seem to be involved at all, while Ron made an effort. In fact, does Ron's changed attitude toward Draco annoy her as well?
I can't say whether I think her feeling left out would make her more likely to gloat-I'd think if she felt that way she'd have done something before now. I'm tempted to believe sher really does see Draco as a passing hormonal phase in Harry's life, or a product of his romantic imagination. It just seems like if she's really been feeling threatened, we would have seen it (even if there's some player reason, it seems like there should be some sign). She does show how she feels underneath when she accuses Ron of being embarassed whenever they were together. I didn't get the sense she resented Harry's relationship at all here, just that she sort of felt sorry for Harry about it.
I guess it seems in character for her to assume she has all the answers, and to see what she's always wanted to see with H&D: an unfortunate fling that will eventually drive Harry crazy. I wonder if she blamed herself too, assuming Harry went to Draco when she and Ron were focused on each other. After all, it would surely be hard for someone as logical as Hermione to think that she and Ron wouldn't last while this brat was still holding Harry's attention over a year later.
Then again, her not getting involved until now could also point to her feeling upset about it. But I think I prefer the idea that Hermione has just made a mistake here in thinking she understood Harry's feelings better than he did. Harry seems to see it that way, and based on her reactions to him I feel like he's correct.
| tabiji @ March 29 2004, 09:14:33 UTC |
Butting in to add the link - yep it was the wedding when Hermione basically said Draco's only appeal to Harry must be about looks and Quidditch.
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Anonymous @ March 26 2004, 02:49:32 UTC |
Eh, maybe I just over looked this before but... has 'destroying harry potter' always been one of potterstinks interests? If so, ignore me. Heh.
If not, :s
~lurker
| tabiji @ March 26 2004, 11:30:09 UTC |
You're right. It used to be "defeating harry potter". Hmm.
(parent)| onthehillside @ March 26 2004, 13:50:02 UTC |
He also changed his default from the blue one to "classic and chiseled features". Dammit.
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Anonymous @ March 26 2004, 15:47:37 UTC |
Says Seamus to Lisa: I think nearly everything that anyone does that is irritating and inexplicable is done to impress someone they want to have/are having sexual relations with. Even Malfoy.
Granted, in that case, Draco would be sleeping with pretty much the entire school, but hopefully Seamus is just referring to Harry.
| sistermagpie @ March 26 2004, 16:58:56 UTC |
Yes, interesting post there on Seamus' part.
Just in case anybody's missed it, Harry also commented on Remus' post saying that yes, he does want to go home.:-(
This is during Easter holidays...April 10th is ps' party. So Harry might be saying he's not going to Draco's party, which just might kill Draco.
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Anonymous @ March 27 2004, 05:10:41 UTC |
After their fight, do you think ps would still want j_h at his party to begin with?
(parent)| sistermagpie @ March 27 2004, 05:35:26 UTC |
I kind of think he would. Like even if he didn't want him there, he'd want him there.
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Anonymous @ March 27 2004, 07:26:50 UTC |
That's true. j_h will probably be stubborn about it all, though. Unless some magical non-bad thing happens at the Ravenclaw party, if the Slytherins even show up. For some reason I can picture M.B. convincing people to go, purely for her own entertainment, of course.
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