zen_child @ June 25 2004, 00:08:37 UTC

Well.
That just made me want to cry. This whole thing. Ugh.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 00:09:40 UTC

OMG. For the past half hour I had such a feeling Pansy was gone. I love Pansy.

I mean loved.:-(

quixotic_sense @ June 25 2004, 00:15:43 UTC

Given his father's (indirect) involvement in her death, it must be a particularly bitter pill for Draco to swallow. I wonder how this will affect his relationship with Narcissa.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 00:18:56 UTC

Yeah. I wish I knew something of what happened from their pov. Last we heard Draco was going to be with Pansy at dinner, but maybe all three were together or not.

Jesus. Did he see Lucius get killed--run through with a sword? That's, uh. Well. As much as it was defense of Harry so not murder or anything, that's not something it seems like he'd be prepared to remember. He might not have seen it. But he'll have to know about it.

quixotic_sense @ June 25 2004, 00:23:29 UTC

Perhaps Lucius was counting on Draco and Pansy not being there at the Great Hall, what with their dinner plans. Emphasis on "perhaps." And I really do hope that Draco didn't see his father killed.

Even so, this is just... Death Eaters, you absolute bloody scumbags.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 00:34:20 UTC

Well, Lucius has never thought much of Pansy so he probably wouldn't care much about her, unfortunately. But still, he was not only responsible for her death but tried to kill Harry whom I think it's pretty clear ps loves too.

black_dog @ June 25 2004, 01:37:30 UTC

I hate to sound like a ghoul, but I can't repress a sense of satisfaction at Lucius' death, and the nice, painful, mechanical, old-fashioned manner of it. (Tosses blood-red roses at L's player.) It adds a glimmer of a sense of justice to this whole horrible episode.

No idea whether PS saw it or not, of course, but I'm also thinking -- maybe in unnaturally detatched terms -- that the fact that Harry's father-figure and Draco's father killed each other might make each death easier for the two of them to bear, as a couple.

Right or wrong, can you imagine if one murder, but not the other, had happened? Could Draco ever bear Harry as someone close to the man who killed his father, or having an in-law who would probably have been cheered for killing his father? Could Harry bear Draco if Lucius had just killed Remus and survived the slaughter, knowing that Draco had to retain some personal devotion to that man, even if he were sitting in Azkaban?

This way, there's something common and interconnected about what they've lost, there's a sort of balance that, however tragic, lets them face each other with less bitterness and more equality. They both, hopefully, can live with the choices they made, the losses they experienced for belonging, even before the level of choice, to one side or the other. And they can preserve a sense of why the choices they made were both difficult and important; they can think about the vast difference between their fathers' enmity and their own love.

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- the world is ending and I'm all about the H/D. But you know, all this slaughter is only redeemed by the future it makes possible for the survivors. So I'm hoping for the best for them.

Still lots of mysteries, of course -- what did Draco actually do during the attack? Does Harry's having a wand confirm the suspicions I raised elsewhere about PS' apparent early access to his wand? What was Snape's role, and did he affect PS' decisions? What did Narcissa know/plan/do, and what is she feeling right now? And of course, lots of other people's stories to care about and wibble about. So, time to get back to the refresh button!

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 01:56:12 UTC

Yes, I did think that their killing each other made things...well, not easier, but cleaner almost. It really would be more painful, imo, if one of them was alive. Harry and Draco don't seem to have seen each other yet, though. Draco doesn't seem capable of really seeing anybody, according to Ron, and it makes sense Harry's with Sirius.

Lucius and Remus were locked in their own battle that wasn't just about Harry and Draco by any means. They were basically ending a story that started with James. And it's also fitting--if brutal--that they are father figures removed just as the two boys have to step out into the world, because I'd been noticing that of all the kids really only these two seemed still focused on their parents (for different reasons). Can either of them really go back to their homes now, knowing what they stand for? It will always be their home, of course, but I think it gives them both more reason to have to go forward because they can't go back. Perhaps Draco will room with MB, for instance, since she can't live with Pansy (sob!), for instance. Not to make it sound like Remus and Lucius didn't have lives beyond this, of course. Just that their story had been going on longer and as painful as this ending is, it's definitely an ending.

Harry's having a wand definitely makes things interesting, though so far we haven't heard about ps having one (though we haven't heard what he was doing at all so he could have). On some level it would make sense for only Harry to have a wand somehow, since he's Potter.

I can't imagine what's going on with Narcissa. She seemed genuinely happy to be back with Lucius and knows what he means when he's gloating about something. Would she consider this kind of plan an endangerment to ps? I can't imagine she can't see that knowing what shape ps must be in right now because of Pansy.

Lucius' death was just too fitting (throws more roses). I was worried that there was kind of no villain now, because when Hermione said Voldemort was dead I wondered if Lucius was hoping that would happen and if he would now lead the DEs...but obviously not. Can the game go on without any villains? Peter has still escaped and there are other DEs around, so perhaps there are stories to be told with them.

There's been no news of Narcissa being at the school. It may be hard for her given Lucius' involvement. She's also lost Remus. So far, Harry has his other parental figure with him and ps doesn't.

black_dog @ June 25 2004, 02:45:55 UTC

Lucius and Remus were locked in their own battle that wasn't just about Harry and Draco by any means. They were basically ending a story that started with James. And it's also fitting--if brutal--that they are father figures removed just as the two boys have to step out into the world . . . their story had been going on longer and as painful as this ending is, it's definitely an ending.

Oh I totally agree with everything in this paragraph. And yet, if their story was about James, that story badly needed to be over, too. I think we both noticed at one point that Harry's guardians tend to immerse him in the past when he needs to be breaking free into his own life. PS and JH have both been overdetermined by their histories, and need to have a chance to just be themselves. Now they have it, and it's a good thing, even though the cost was so high.

Did you see Neville's expression of sympathy for Draco? Neville's not above twisting the knife, of course, but I think his sympathy is sincere, here. There had to have been a special horror for PS, even after all he might have known or suspected, to seeing his father actually standing there killing his classmates, trying to kill Harry. It must have been a moment of almost disbelief, cutting through all the evasions and rationalizations he had so elaborately built up. I'm hoping we get some sign of how PS reacts to all this, no matter how much longer the game goes on.

I'm surprised, too that Narcissa hasn't been visible -- and as usual, I have no idea whatsoever what she might be feeling. Is she in shock, surprised and disillusioned by Lucius' treachery? Is she consulting her lawyer and moving her assets offshore? Is she seizing the moment to take over the remnant of the DEs? :) I have no idea, and I love her player for it. But you're right that Draco must be feeling very alone. I'm glad he's with MB, whatever may have been up, there.

Perhaps Draco will room with MB, for instance, since she can't live with Pansy (sob!)

I don't know, there's a perfectly good flat in Edinburgh going empty. And MB has Nott, now, after all!

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 03:02:45 UTC

Heh--well, we don't know if Nott's there for her now. Nott tends to lose interest in things.;-) Of course I'd love them to be together, but I don't want to push them into domesticity when it's too soon. Seems like they'd need to recover a bit first.

Did you see Neville's expression of sympathy for Draco? Neville's not above twisting the knife, of course, but I think his sympathy is sincere, here.

That was just my impression--first the twisting the knife, actually. I mean, I do think Neville is genuinely realizing for the first time how awful it would be to be in Draco's position, but still--if he really cared about sparing the kid's feelings this wouldn't be something to publically muse about, since Draco didn't seem to be involved. Not that Draco's ever given Neville a reason to be sensitive, but it's interesting how Neville's been so aggressive towards Draco in the face of his friends softening towards him.

I'm dying to know just what Draco saw. We really have no clue. For all we know Draco and MB left dinner earlier to fight with each other and only heard Pansy was dead--though so far there's no reason to think that's the case. He doesn't seem to still have any of his defenses at the moment. It's funny--this is exactly what I don't understand about canon, that other people don't see exactly this potential in this character. It seems like right now ps is silent because it's kind of the most powerful thing he could say.

I do think it's really interesting about Narcissa. Did she know? Has she tried to contact ps? Last year when she couldn't get through to him right away she was very vocal about it. Draco doesn't seem up for firechats now, but he was speaking to his mother about this summer right before he went to dinner. She certainly would be wise to start securing herself after this. I wonder if Draco will have to talk to Pansy's mother. Lucius always denied their being boyfriend/girlfriend but I imagine he'd play the part to her mother. As difficult as she was, she seemed very focused on Pansy and now she's gone.:-( And her father never wrote her back.:-((

Lisa's family will be shocked too, of course. I just have this special thing for Pansy.:-)

black_dog @ June 25 2004, 03:19:51 UTC

That was just my impression--first the twisting the knife, actually.

Well, Neville has less reason than most to show any kindness to Draco. Though it occurs to me -- this isn't just about Draco's feelings at the moment, it's a foretaste of the kind of pointing and staring that PS is going to have to deal with for the rest of his life. Which makes me really hope that PS had some kind of heroic, or at least defiant role in the Great Hall, because that's the only way he can answer it.

It seems like right now ps is silent because it's kind of the most powerful thing he could say.

I partly disagree, though I can certainly understand why he wouldn't be ready to speak yet. But just because of his own compromised history, and for the reasons above, I think PS has to speak at some point, I don't think his silence would earn him the benefit of the doubt. Of course, it's a tremendous challenge to figure out what to say -- which is why I'm so hopeful that PS will take it on.

:-( And her father never wrote her back.:-((

Ohhhhhh . . . kick in the gut. I hadn't even thought of that. Poor Pansy. I never had her quite figured out either, but Arthur liked her, and that should be enough! Speaking of father figures, I'm so glad Arthur snuck in a warm comment on her journal for her, although it's so painful to re-read.

Would love to speculate further. Need. More. Info. :)

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 03:33:04 UTC

I think PS has to speak at some point, I don't think his silence would earn him the benefit of the doubt.

Oh I agree--I didn't mean it was the most powerful thing he could say in his world, but that the fact that he's speechless says character-wise something's gotten through to him. Like...usually ps reacts to everything with a well-worded post that spins everything his own particular way. Even when Harry was hurt and he clearly wanted to see him he was in denial and keeping one eye on telling everybody they were being silly. That he's just sitting with Pansy and is unable to even answer a "hello" from Ron says, hopefully, that he's going to have to start rebuilding from scratch. Like perhaps the next thing he does say will be a bit more of himself and a little less of the ps persona, somehow.

But as for how people will look at him within the game--well there you're absolutely right. After last year's attack he was attacked by Ron for being in on it and Pansy was pushed down the stairs. So far the characters who have said things have been more reasonable, Neville feeling sorry for him for having such a father and Ron not knowing what to say to them (although kids have died before this is the first major friendship that's suffered a loss, if you know what I mean). But how will ps ever reconcile this? I honestly don't know. His view of his father really has involved a lot of denial. Not to mention his father basically seemed to tell him how to think--I was just remembering during that time when Lucius had cut him off and Narcissa said Draco looked so devestated when Lucius snubbed him in Hogsmeade. How will he even know what to do with Lucius not only gone but having proved himself not a role model??

I'm glad Arthur gave her that comment as well. I've never been able to quite figure Pansy out, but she always seemed like the softest member of the Slytherin Three. They're all protective of each other but I sometimes got the feeling both Pansy and MB were protective of Pansy in a way that makes this doubly hard for them, like Pansy was the last one of them this should have happened to.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 03:39:28 UTC

Draco and Narcissa ruined each other's shirts. WAHHHHHHH!!!

(I wonder what Narcissa was going to say when she said she wanted to "make sure that his--") I keep picturing Draco staring at his grandmother's body, then Pansy's, now Lucius.'

black_dog @ June 25 2004, 09:59:44 UTC

Seamus says the right thing, I think, about having sympathy for PS losing his father, and not blaming him for his father's crimes.

But as emotionally compelling as the whole "family" thing is, I wonder if it's enough? I thought that Narcissa's tactic -- using her mourning icon and focusing exclusively on the family tragedy in her post -- was possibly sincere but also tactically brilliant. It completely obscures the question of collusion, makes you hardly even dare to ask it. So, to me, Narcissa is inscrutable to the end, here.

I hope PS can do more, can bring himself to express his horror at what Lucius stood for and what he himself was almost recruited into. The gesture where he touched (poked?) his father's face was probably full of all kinds of contradictory emotions, but I suspect "making sure he's really dead" was one of them. And there's freedom for PS in that, as well as sadness.

Of course, it's psychologically plausible either way if he can't bring himself to repudiate his dead father, but I think it's healthier for him if he can.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 14:33:56 UTC

Oh my god, Narcissa's post was masterful. Especially the way she says she will miss him while "cursing his name." It's appropriate but so vague--why is she cursing his name, exactly? The same reason other people will be? Not quite...

And I'm dying to know what she was going to say in that post.:-)

I thought the same thing about Draco, that he was making sure his father was really dead. Or just couldn't believe it (I have to agree with the person in the other thread who had visions of Draco poking him and Lucius sitting up with a MWAHAHAHAHA! and scaring the bejeesus out of him). Narcissa also rather draws the curtain on that scene, not seeing anything after that, so it's hard to tell what was going on. If I were ps it really does seem like it would be impossible to believe Lucius could be dead--it's got a different meaning than, say, Harry and Remus. Not only can Harry handle loss more realistically but he's always known people could die and he didn't see Remus as more than a man. He didn't dominate his life the way Lucius did.

I honestly don't know how he'll deal with repudiating Lucius. He's been in such denial, Seamus was right in pointing out he wasn't even there. (But at least one student seemed to be on the DE side, so he *could* have supported them at his age. His behavior seems to show he really was a regular kid.) I think it might take him a while to really be able to understand what his father was, before he can honestly say how he feels about it, if that makes sense.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 03:51:35 UTC

Okay, I'm really sorry to spam but DUDE new information! It seems from Sinistra's post that Pansy was murdered before the attack, and Draco brought her to the hospital wing, and MB came later looking for Draco. At least that's what I got from her post--she keeps saying, "A student," but it seems like it's Draco because she told him to sit in the back of the wing and later directs MB there--perhaps MB was coming to tell him Lucius had died?

black_dog @ June 25 2004, 09:48:23 UTC

So it was Perkins of the ministry lurking on the grounds, who may secretly be Pellero (sp?) Wilkes, and Pansy got killed because she recognized him from her visits with Arthur?

Or is Perkins/Wilkes secretly Peter Pettigrew, who may also have impersonated Hooch's brother! His tail got cut off. What missing body part would that correspond to? :)

Just . . . the callousness and randomness of Pansy's murder is upsetting. Not in the heat of battle, at all, and from someone she thought would be a friend and colleague in her new internship. Clearly there is no protection for Slytherins, although I suspect the word was out not to hurt Draco, or else he would probably have been murdered together with Pansy.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 15:02:28 UTC

The thing that freaks me out most about Pansy's murder is that, "He wished me good evening." Can't you just see it? I picture him tipping his hat, getting on his black winged horse that just appeared, and flying away. It must have literally seemed like a nightmare.

It makes sense now that Draco wouldn't have been able to tell anyone what was going on. It's understandable he thought what happened was just a strange meeting with one man that was too bizarre to really explain--you can see why Poppy and Sinistra felt they couldn't get any information out of him. But his statement here is actually quite clear.

Another big question is exactly what did Perkins have in the sack he was fiddling with?? Was there a person inside? Could it be Dumbledore? Or was it an empty sack he was planning to put something in? Or maybe Peter was in the sack? It just adds to the frightening-ness of it. It sounds so like a bad dream--one of Draco's, really, except in his dreams he's usually active and here he was almost more like a dreamer who was watching but unable to act.

I expect Perkins would know not to hurt Draco--or even if he didn't, perhaps it was just that Pansy would know things about him Draco wouldn't. He said something about the Ministry--that again gives Draco less reason to figure out what was going on. Pansy was killed by a Ministry person who may have also been a DE, but Pansy recognized him from the Ministry. I wonder if he was using polyjuice or if he was that thing Tonks is--can they change themselves into people or just change their appearance like with hair color?

I'm so confused and you know, Hermione's entry was so much scarier than the end of OotP--especially the sudden appearance of those black horses after she saw Lisa die. But I guess this is so much more personal and odd and quiet it seems even more painful to me. Like as awful as what was going on in the Great Hall was, it was like that Quidditch game with the kids working together or at least now being with other people who experienced it. Draco just had this crazy experience that's lost in the bigger story (and his dad died in that, which must have made the whole thing even stranger). The two incidents just make each other worse, somehow.

black_dog @ June 26 2004, 11:19:04 UTC

"He wished me good evening." . . . It must have literally seemed like a nightmare. . . It makes sense now that Draco wouldn't have been able to tell anyone what was going on.

I should really respond to your LJ post, but I just want to second this -- the scene is just uncanny, for exactly the reasons you state. And you're right, too about how utterly bewildering it all must of been to PS, and how incoherent it must have sounded when he tried to explain it.

I had similar feelings about Hermione's post. It was a really effective use of H's tendency to go on and on, because it must have seemed like forever to the people in the hall, and the sustained terror and helplessness is something you can feel in her post, one horror topping another, and no end to it -- it was extremely effective.

For me, the most memorable image in H's post was before she could see the thestrals, when the DE's appeared "seated in the air" like some kind of twisted cherubim. And Voldemort's stately descent, complete with horse, to the top of the staff tables. The imagery, the attention to detail, the sheer effort that went into composing these posts is just amazing, and can't be applauded enough.

sistermagpie @ June 26 2004, 21:01:40 UTC

Oh, definitely. I'm amazed at how frightening they made all of this. It's not even OTT for what's going on. Just that whoever came up with these ideas--like the DEs crashing through that ceiling (which would have looked like them literally crashing through the sky like it's the end of the world...or The Matrix ;-)) bringing death with them-yah. And then at the other end of the spectrum from Armageddon you have this encounter of Draco's which just seems so "I Am The Walrus" to me--I keep wanting John Lennon to write a song about it! (I guess that's why Mr. Perkins is always wearing a bowler in my head.)

But really all the students have used their voices so well-Justin's entry cracked me up-I'm still picking glass out of my head, man. I like the way this situation has believeably drawn the kids to their journals because they need a place to write down their feelings and and also want to reach out to others.

It's funny but..everybody keeps talking about this being the end and I see how it could be, but to me it seems like it could easily be just as fascinating a game now. I mean, I've never been able to predict anything the game was going to do before so I don't feel like I can now either. (Also I feel like people talking about it as if it's a given this is the ending is a little rude, though it's not intended to be...like rushing the players off the stage with, "Well, you'll have to wrap this up soon because I can't take too much NA without Remus and Voldemort!" I know that's not what people are saying, it just seems sort of presumptuous to assume anything like that-though it could be true for all I know.)

black_dog @ June 26 2004, 21:44:35 UTC

Just a thought on it's "being the end" or not. I guess I'm just following the crowd here, though as you know I was initially reluctant to even speculate on it. I guess there's an overwhelming sense that the game is, at a minimum, going to change radically, not just through the loss of major characters but through a change of setting, resolution of major plot issues, etc. This is certainly an ending that can be acknowledged and mourned, even if the game continues in some form. Personally, I hope it goes on forever. But I guess I can't agree that it's rude to just acknowledge what seems like a self-evident crisis or epoch in the game itself. Apart from some LJ comments by departing players, the players themselves have of course have said nothing -- either to confirm that the game is going on or to refute the overwhelming amount of speculation among the fans. So my feeling is, I'm contentedly clueless, I'm going to applaud an obvious climax, and I'm up for whatever happens next. :)

sistermagpie @ June 26 2004, 22:25:53 UTC

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I thought you were doing that. I do understand why it's obviously a possibility--you can't help but think about it because, as you say, it's an ending even if it isn't the ending. It just seems like I've read here and there some comments that seemed to be making it a done deal, almost as if they were announcing it for the players and it gave me the feeling of sitting in an audience when somebody's getting up before it's over--like what, you have to get to your car? Siddown! So I'm mentally preparing myself for the possibility, I don't want the players to get the idea I'm looking at my watch here, because I'm more interested in the game than ever. Not that they play for us anyway-if they want to continue to enjoy their characters and play beyond this go them, you know.

Maybe I just feel like it's bad luck to say it out loud or something. Like I want to think I've got wonderful stuff to look forward to as we sort out everything this has uncovered and the characters find themselves in new situations because of it and I worry somebody saying this is it will make that happen. Which is stupid because obviously whatever's going to happen has already been decided independently of us.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 03:21:17 UTC

Of course I'd love them to be together, but I don't want to push them into domesticity when it's too soon. Seems like they'd need to recover a bit first.

Here I'm talking H/D, of course. A little too soon to start really shipping MB/Nott.:-)

black_dog @ June 25 2004, 10:05:58 UTC

Haha, it took me a second, actually, but I eventually realised you meant H/D.

The idea of MB and Nott setting up house together is worth a moment's contemplation, though, for sheer entertainment value.

H and D are each having a cathartic evening with their remaining parent -- I like the parallelism here. It's going to be fascinating to see how they deal with each other, if their relationship is strong enough to avoid recriminations, maybe even something they both see as an antidote to all the horrors they've just been through. I really hope there's enough left of the game to get a sense of H and D's future.

sistermagpie @ June 25 2004, 14:49:47 UTC

The idea of MB and Nott setting up house together is worth a moment's contemplation, though, for sheer entertainment value.


Well...not until we find out which student killed Lisa.

Not that I'm saying it has to be Nott. It's just a mystery. It could very well be someone we don't really know, and certainly could be a non-Slytherin as well. But since Nott's a DE's son who's just not as visible as Draco, he can't be ruled out yet.

Yeah, I can't imagine how these two would be responding to each other. Harry's always known who Lucius was and he separated him from ps. ps not only wasn't at the attack but he had a friend senselessly murdered before it. If ps said something like he did after the Weasley death Harry would of course be furious, but I don't think he'd blame him outright. I can't see ps really blaming Harry either, actually, given that he saw Pansy murdered by some man. Harry's one of the only people in his world who's the same as always, I'd think. Exactly what he always claimed to be. I do wonder, though, if it would be hard for him to face him if he understands just what he's been supporting all this time.

I mean, as understandable as it is, it's still kind of interesting that of course Harry's father is missed by all and everyone wants to see Harry, while people want to dance on ps' father's grave and are only interested in him to make him answer for his crimes. It's just what you'd expect and it's not easy for either of them, but it does just painfully underscore their roles in school.

black_dog @ June 26 2004, 11:28:03 UTC

not until we find out which student killed Lisa.

Hey, I posted a Head Boy/Lisa's Murder theory in response to this. Would be curious if you see anything to it.

Yeah, I can't imagine how these two would be responding to each other.

Like I said above, I think it helps that they've each had a tremendous loss, that there's a parallel in what they're suffering. Neither is going to be an object of pity to the other, or feel uniquely hard-done-by. It's an equalizer and, hopefully, a basis for empathy. For example, I can't imagine PS, after his own losses, saying anything to Harry (or anyone else) remotely like he said to the Weasley's last month. I think he gets it now, or he has to get it, because of his own suffering. And I hope, at least, that the "good guys" get it enough not to give PS grief just because his father was a bastard.

Oddly, the one obstacle I can see being an issue is the fact that Harry killed Voldemort. PS has never been awed by TBWL, and Harry has always been grateful that PS just sees him for himself. But after such a demonstration of power, can PS really see Harry as "just another boy?" Here again, though it sounds very clinical and analytic to say it, Harry's own loss and suffering may help keep him human in Draco's eyes. But there's goint to be a lot of wierd psychological stuff in the air, that I hope they can work through.

sistermagpie @ June 26 2004, 21:22:15 UTC

Definitely. And in Narcissa's latest post she's still been incredibly slippery, posting in personal terms: Lucius took Remus from her; Remus took Lucius from her. She's still avoided the reason WHY, since it's not like the two of them just got into a bar fight. It makes me wonder how she and Draco will deal with this, because it doesn't seem like Draco can take the same position, nor does he have to. Draco, hopefully, will deal more realistically with why this happened. As painful as it must be to have people giving him grief over it, I wonder if this will force him to deal with it. Like, after the outing everyone relentlessly went after him but ultimately this seemed to make him examine his own feelings more. He no longer has Lucius telling him how he's supposed to feel or explaining things. I can't see him being able to just dismiss Lucius but without him I can't see him being able to come up with rationalizations for what happened, when Lucius was going after Harry and Pansy was killed (and Lucius' master being defeated and Lucius defeated as well).

I do wonder about ps seeing scarless Harry--proof that he killed Voldemort, which would have to amaze him. Though I think he has always been aware of Harry that way...it's like in canon. On one hand you could say that Draco doesn't treat Harry special and Harry appreciates that (well, he doesn't appreciate it in canon, of course!). But otoh part of what Draco does there is to exaggerate Harry's reputation, having him look for evil in the shower each morning etc. I assume he's read quite a lot about him as well. So maybe underneath he always did know what Harry was capable of-he does, uh, sort of adore him, it seems like.

What I wonder now, too, is if Draco will be affected by the hunt for Perkins. I mean, the hall was chaos, but there were several one-on-one murders that went on. There's Lisa, whose murder seems to lead to a mystery of exactly what was going on at Hogwarts. There's Remus, but that was tragically ended right there with Lucius' death. Then there's this Perkins who clearly did a lot of dammage all over but also killed one girl who was incredibly special to two students, one of whom was her "boyfriend" and who was there when she was killed. I have no idea if this will lead to anything specific in Draco, but it seems interesting that he has a personal thing here, especially given the usual themes of Slytherins taking care of their own when others don't. Maybe he'll just let the authorities take care of it, but the whole situation was so odd I feel like it would be hard for him not to replay it in his head over and over, focusing on this shapeshifting man.

black_dog @ June 26 2004, 22:00:50 UTC

It was an odd post. First because I'm not sure I believe her. It strains my sense of N's character to think she would be ignorant of such an important piece of public information. I wonder if this post is more of a cover story, more an attempt to justify her decisino to to portray Lucius' death in purely emotional, family terms; if she "didn't know" the circumstances, it would be perfectly reasonable that she didn't acknowledge, publicly, the nature of the conflict that was going on. But I think it's a pose!

I could go either way on Draco and Harry and I'm looking forward to some indication of how they really feel. It's not that Draco refused to acknowledge that Harry was in the history books; I guess it's more that Draco has always been indignant/incredulous/amused about the gap between the image of the hero and the actual boy in front of him. So maybe he could still tease Harry for being "Potter" even while acknowledging what he did to Voldemort. On the other hand, given PS' history of denial, maybe he really was able to keep a distance from Harry's heroism, which he will no longer be able to do, so there will end up being some period of adjustment for him.

As for the Perkins thing -- wow, that's an experience to make you neurotic and skittish about strangers for the rest of your life, isn't it? But you make an interesting point, that with Perkins still on the loose, it creates an incentive for Draco to be active and aggressive in helping to pursue the remnants of Voldemort's organization, rather than just passively contemplating his own past muddled loyalties. Maybe his outrage over Pansy's murder, and his active support for capturing Perkins, will help him clarify his feelings, help him figure out and really take ownership of his own new loyalties.

sistermagpie @ June 26 2004, 23:16:18 UTC

But I think it's a pose!

The fact that she's posted twice, too, with the mourning icon, makes that so possible! She talks about being strong but she's also BEING strong, taking care of things, mentioning lawyers and arrangements. When she started her post about "I didn't know..." I thought she was going to say something about what Lucius was doing or what he was capable of--though it would be hard to believe she didn't "know" those things earlier. Instead she was talking about Remus. So she didn't ask how Lucius was killed? And then she still talks about Lucius being "taken" from her and how she hadn't worried about that for 3 years (fourth year? The graveyard?). If Narcissa didn't know Remus was dead...does Draco? (Did MB see Lucius die?)

Also now she's involved with Lucius *father.* It's N's mother who seemed fond of ps and left him the estate, right? And weren't the Malfoy parents kind of nightmares--when Lucius was at his worst Narcissa said he was like Edward, and Lucius worried about being as distant from Draco as Lucius was from his father. And now as soon as Lucius dies Edward pops up asking Narcissa what she's going to do and Draco is the "man of the Manor." This could be bad if Draco is vulnerable with big responsibilities dumped on him (planning the funeral to start with) and Narcissa and Edward are right there to sweep him up and direct him. It seems like Narcissa has an eye on moving in on Draco-he may be the man of the Manor now, but I can't imagine she intends to be displaced. (I also wondered about Narcissa's post about Pansy, that Draco should mourn for her and "what she truly meant to him." Don't know why, that just sounded significant.) It just seems like Draco needs protection now more than ever, as he's going to start being pressured about how to respond to this. (Interesting that Sirius was just out getting them some food, while Narcissa had sent Draco to MB so she could think.)

Draco and heroism are an interesting thing--I don't know how it will go either. He's always put Harry down and built himself up, describing his own exploits. It would make sense if he was re-evaluating all that now, given how powerless he was in a crisis--I knew those Cedric Diggory buttons were a bad omen, and sure enough Draco ended up playing Harry's part in Cedric II: Pansy. We still don't know exactly how Voldemort was killed, btw. If Harry Ak'd him at the same time Voldemort Ak'd Harry, why did V die and Harry live? Anyway, I agree there would need to be a period of readjustment since not only has Harry just done something spectacular but Draco might be feeling more useless than ever. All he could do for Pansy was carry her to the Hospital Ward and beg Poppy to help her when she couldn't. Even his statement about what happened was described by Sinistra as something like useless.

Also I'm thinking about his trouble with Patronus. Lisa correctly pointed out that he talked about it all the time, like it bothered him he couldn't do it. I felt like that had more meaning, that this was something Draco had to do, even if Mummy said it was better he couldn't. And yet he *was* MB's Patronus. So I feel like there's some disconnect there, like Draco needs to find the part of himself that can protect himself and his friends. It just seems like for him especially, until he can produce a Patronus he hasn't really grown up. And Patronus the word is related to pater, right?

Maybe his outrage over Pansy's murder, and his active support for capturing Perkins, will help him clarify his feelings, help him figure out and really take ownership of his own new loyalties.

I'd love it, though, of course I don't know if that's how it would play out or not. MB would be on his side there, certainly, and I do feel like it would be good for the two of them to be able to do something for Pansy. Plus MB would be a healthy ally, I think. So would Seamus and Harry. I'm worried ps will get sucked back in with the older Malfoys, and can only hope that seeing death will make him decide to not let that happen again. He was always easily controlled by Lucius but it may prove it's not so easy for anyone else. He doesn't seem outraged yet. For the first time he doesn't seem "enraged" at all.

black_dog @ June 27 2004, 17:11:43 UTC

A lot of interesting things to think about here. Narcissa's spin, if we question her transparency, is succintly expressed in the heading of her post: "none to blame or forgive." Nice try, Narcissa. And yet, it's not entirely consistent of me to hope that Draco comes to exactly that conclusion, for his own peace of mind. I guess I suspect Narcissa of being more culpable, and am less concerned about her peace than about her accountability. But Seamus, at least for now, in his post inviting her to the wake, seems willing to keep things at the human, "family" level.

So here's an interesting moral dilemma for you -- if you were an inhabitant of this world, how important would it be to you to determine Narcissa's precise level of involvement in the DE attack, or at least the planning for it? Is it time to forgive, and paper things over, or is it time for investigation and accountability? And how is the answer affected by Narcissa's own difficult position in the past, the fact that she needed to compromise and survive? How is it affected by a regard for Draco's interests?

You make a very interesting point about Edward. I think he was part of the really scary set of grandparents, the ones they had the really awkward, short visit with and barely spoke to. I wasn't sure they were still alive. If Edward is another Lucius, and there were a danger of Draco falling under his influence, it would definitely be tragic. But I wonder if that's a likely outcome. It doesn't seem like Draco was ever close to Edward, so I imagine E hasn't "imprinted" on him in such an overwhelmingly intimidating way as Lucius. Also Edward is old, past the peak of his powers, I would think, and Draco is perhaps old enough not to be bullied by a brand new person in his life. Also, as complex as Narcissa's feelings must be right now, is it likely that she'd be willing to entangle herself in some sort of dependency, just when she's become a free agent in charge of the Malfoy name and fortune? Or do you think she's more vulnerable than that, right now?

Harry-Voldemort: How cool is it that Mandy, who hardly ever posts, gets to narrate the showdown? I took the dueling-wands business to be a reprise of the scene in GoF where the beams from their wants met, and Harry's spell gradually overcame the force of Voldemort's.

Cedric II: Pansy

Nicely put! And I wonder if it isn't the answer to our common anxiety about how Draco will react to Harry's heroism. If PS feels humiliated about having been helpless during Pansy's murder, Harry can tell him how he felt, himself, when Cedric died. I'm also thinking of Harry's speech in OOTP on this. I think Harry has the tact to make this bearable for PS, if PS is willing to be helped.

Interesting point about how the Patronus feeds in to Draco's possible feelings of impotence in all this. Just to open up some more lines of speculation -- I think we had bounced around the idea that PS' Patronus may have failed because he wasn't honest with himself about his happiest memory. I wonder if Lucius' death may disinhibit him here, help him be more emotionally honest with himself. I also had the bizarre random thought that maybe he suppressed his Patronus, because he was afraid that it might be Lucius, and couldn't handle how that made him feel.

You say that PS needs to "find that part of himself that can protect himself and his friends." I agree that he needs to find a sense of safety and security outside his fantasy life, but I wonder if "protector" is a natural role for PS. It's certainly Harry's role, as a hero. But it doesn't exhaust all the sort of "masculine" adult roles that PS might ultimately choose from. PS strikes me as more about competitiveness and accomplishment, more about making and building things. He differs from Harry here, and I think he could perfectly well find his path to security in a different way than Harry has. I suspect his sense of security will always come from demonstrating that he's "better" than other people in some way that counts for him. Physical safety may be more Harry's business. Sounds like a partnership!

Anyway, I'm hugely looking forward to the next glimpse we get of PS, so we have some evidence to feed all our mad speculations. :)

sistermagpie @ June 27 2004, 18:41:56 UTC

Nice try, Narcissa.

That was my thought exactly--nothing to blame or to forgive? Huh? I'm not really sure if it's important that Narcissa be accountable for this. But it seems like she would be-just as the students seem to already be making rumblings about ps' accountability as a Malfoy. I was surprised, for instance, that Sirius wouldn't look N in the eye in telling her about Lupin's death. Sirius never liked N and I'd expect him to look her STRAIGHT in the eye to make her squirm over what her husband did. It's like if Tony Soprano killed your husband I'd think you'd feel pretty righteous letting Carmela know, even if she's not involved in his work. I think there's even a line in one ep where she's told, "You can never again say you don't know."

So while I don't know if it's so bad if she doesn't want to face this, it seems like when she showed up she'd have been immediately questioned by those Aurors about what she knew, what Lupin's relationship with Lupin was etc. Just seems like a given.

I can't see her falling under Edward's spell-she never seemed to like him (I had thought they were dead too). And if ps were going to be influenced I guess it would be through the idea of what Lucius would have wanted. So I think Edward, if he's like L, would be a force to be reckoned with, just not in the personal way L was (I love your choice of word with "imprinting" because that's just what it was). If either one of them is vulnerable it seems like it's ps-Narcissa just seems very capable. She's quickly become public and taken action--not that this means she's not grieving too, but she seems to know things have to be done while ps has completely withdrawn. (She may break down later and start drinking.) This isn't something she hasn't prepared for and thought about. Her reaction is very different from ps', which fits given their different ages and experience, but I think it also says something about who they are and how they see this. N seems to see a role for herself here that she's accepting, at least.

I agree that he needs to find a sense of safety and security outside his fantasy life, but I wonder if "protector" is a natural role for PS.

I went back and forth on whether to use that word because ITA with you-I don't think it's ps' natural role. I don't think he should be like Harry-in fact, maybe in the past he's been wrong to focus on Harry that way, feeling like he should be something he's not. He's just never seemed to have a realistic idea of his value. I meant more that ps needs to find the part of himself that can stand up on his own and feel secure, like you said, and I think his friends would be part of that. He doesn't have Harry's hero complex or feeling he needs to protect people literally, but I think he'd like to feel like an equal. Like, I am not the protective type at all, but I'd like to think my friends don't have to take care of me. ps just seems completely cut off from his own power. He's cowardly, but doesn't seem comfortable with that. Then he seems to always be surprised by the power he does have-shocked at the outrage over the mud/blood incident, breaking Lavender's arm by accident-perhaps he was even horrified by knocking out MB's teeth. And I do think he's probably not being honest about his happiest memory, though he no doubt thinks he is. There's just a lot of things cut off for him with his idea of how he *should* think or what Lucius would approve of or what's too scary to love. Perhaps with Lucius and Pansy gone he'll get better priorities and realize he shouldn't be afraid to be happy, because that won't keep him from losing people.

I mean, one of the main things with this is until now ps seemed to always feel protected from loss. When other people suffered it was because they'd done the wrong thing. He thought life made a childish sense that way. Now he knows it doesn't.

Anonymous @ June 28 2004, 01:05:06 UTC

Lucius' parents aren't dead. http://www.livejournal.com/users/potterstinks/2002/12/31/

black_dog @ June 28 2004, 02:19:47 UTC

just as the students seem to already be making rumblings about ps' accountability as a Malfoy

Could you point me to some of this? I'm trying to keep up with additional comments to old threads, but haven't been able to re-check everything.

I was surprised, for instance, that Sirius wouldn't look N in the eye in telling her about Lupin's death.

Yeah, me too, given Sirius' nature. Does he feel he has something to be ashamed of? Maybe it's not Lucius' death so much as Remus' that he feels responsible for, and embarassed about his role in.

She's quickly become public and taken action--not that this means she's not grieving too, but she seems to know things have to be done

Let's just pause to admire Narcissa's moment-by-moment political calculations and presence of mind.

She has to know she's an object of suspicion (she has compromised herself, I think, by her last-minute reconciliation with Lucius, and her publicly asking him to explain what "Checkmate" is about.) You mention the Aurors that are crawling all over Hogwarts -- she knows any guilty-seeming behavior is just going to get the dogs turned loose on her. So she parades into Hogwarts, head held high (instead of summoning Draco and Lucius' body to the Manor.) She plays the grieving widow to the hilt in her first post, to discourage or at least delay any awkward questioning. She then wraps herself in her son, because who is going to tear a suffering boy away from his mother and sole surviving parent for anything so vulgar as questioning? She stays in seclusion with Draco in Arithmantra's room, making interrogation even more awkward to contemplate.

When she's done as much as she can with delay and seclusion, she begins securing allies. She spins her impression of Remus' death to make her seem even more of a suffering victim. She humbly approaches Seamus about the wake and secures a (perhaps overly generous) response from him, which she acts deeply grateful for. At the wake, she will probably benefit to some extent from being an appendage to Draco, since Harry and Seamus will probably be going out of their way to comfort him.

At this point, she's kept the Aurors off balance for almost three days and successfully managed those all-important first impressions, so she seems like the suffering spouse and friend and it seems almost crude to speculate on her involvement in the attack. She's got the momentum on her side; everyone else is exhausted and wants to get the horror behind them. She just might pull this off. Brava, Narcissa!

Like, I am not the protective type at all, but I'd like to think my friends don't have to take care of me. . . he seems to always be surprised by the power he does have-shocked at the outrage over the mud/blood incident, breaking Lavender's arm by accident-perhaps he was even horrified by knocking out MB's teeth.

Interesting. So you're saying it's not just a question of the different nature of his security; it's that he actually shows signs of power that he seems to shrink away from, to be uncomfortable with, to be not fully tapping. Yeah, I think you're right, and I think you also put your finger on it when you talk about feeling that being happy means he will lose people. Under Lucius' thumb, he must have been so constantly afraid of showing un-approved powers and interests, because of the potential for a smackdown by Lucius. Damn, though -- that kind of inhibition can be life-long. I would love to see signs that he is resilient enough to get over it.

until now ps seemed to always feel protected from loss. When other people suffered it was because they'd done the wrong thing. He thought life made a childish sense that way. Now he knows it doesn't.

I think this is beautifully put. I mean, his callousness toward the Weasleys reflected either: a cognitive belief that people caused and deserved their own misfortunes, or: an overwhelming emotional need to feel that there was no such thing as undeserved suffering. (Not to pre-judge one of our former discussions!) :) Can he use this new sense of vulnerability, to begin to feel genuine empathy for other people? That would definitely be a satisfying resolution to his development as a character.

sistermagpie @ June 28 2004, 03:05:46 UTC

Could you point me to some of this?

Nope.:-) I was strictly thinking of Seamus saying everyone should leave Draco be cause it addressed the idea that Draco might be expected to answer for what his father did. And Neville, too, thought of how hard it would be to be the son of someone who did this. Whereas with Narcissa, as you're saying here, that's not mentioned, even though after the Weasley attack N was just as cold. Even Lupin went after her for that,and while he worked it out with her nobody else necessarily knows how she explained herself.

She spins her impression of Remus' death to make her seem even more of a suffering victim. She humbly approaches Seamus about the wake and secures a (perhaps overly generous) response from him, which she acts deeply grateful for.

Yes-I had even wondered at the time if N checked with Draco first before saying, "I think we'd like to attend." Draco doesn't seem to be up to going around with his head held high if he turns away when he sees Neville coming (wonder exactly what his thoughts were there). It really does seem like N has just beautifully blended herself in with the good side with nobody asking any of the obvious questions about "the man who's name she took." Hopefully, this will make for some interesting developments since canon-wise Draco can't hide his real feelings, and ps is no different. He's always been a true supporter of Lucius. Even when he was bs-ing about himself he wasn't smooth about it. I don't know if he'd be able to walk the kind of line N walks.

I wonder about what kind of time he had at the wake. Neville seems to describe him being alone in the moment he saw him-at least he doesn't mention who he was with. I don't know if any of the Gryffs would have been going out of their way to focus on him with their own problems. Wonder if MB was there.

So you're saying it's not just a question of the different nature of his security; it's that he actually shows signs of power that he seems to shrink away from, to be uncomfortable with, to be not fully tapping. Yeah, I think you're right, and I think you also put your finger on it when you talk about feeling that being happy means he will lose people.

I hadn't thought about the power thing until I said that, but it does seem to be a thing, like he wants to stay the brattish child forever, raging against pianos for attention. And that almost goes along with thinking happiness is getting that attention like the day in the dining room. In planning the future he put things off as well-last we heard he was going to talk to his father about the shop he'd bought him. But it seems like a Patronus, for him, would require him to own what he wanted, who he was, what he could do. And it's true this probably would be something that was trained into him early-look at how Lucius felt he could correct Pansy on being his gf and tell Harry Draco didn't meant what he said. ps must really be at sea now.

Can he use this new sense of vulnerability, to begin to feel genuine empathy for other people?

I really hope so--and I think it's the great potential of the character. I mean, a callousness towards the Weasleys, if he thought they were in the wrong, wouldn't make him that different from many people. Even Neville, who has the instincts of kindness, finds it impossible to say he's sorry Lucius died. Being in ps' position could give one a unique view, because he has to love someone reviled. N seems to have found her own way, but she was *in* love with Lucius, which is totally different.

moojja @ June 28 2004, 15:47:24 UTC

Well, Lucius was his (Black) lover for a while back then.

chinae @ June 25 2004, 02:52:11 UTC

I raised elsewhere about PS' apparent early access to his wand?

When was this raised?

black_dog @ June 25 2004, 10:16:06 UTC

Hey, I'm sorry -- I tried to post a reply to this twice last night and it didn't go through. The wand thing was just a random theory I threw out on another thread (I can't even find it now, there are so many posts), and maybe it's been overtaken by events. I know I didn't convince Magpie. I just thought it was odd, and maybe significant, that PS clearly was going to "fetch" his wand before dinner, when it didn't seem like they were generally accessible yet.

Anonymous @ June 25 2004, 00:13:23 UTC

*sobs*

Also, it sounds like the Slytherins didn't know about the attack. O.o

*continues to sob*

lisdelacroix @ June 25 2004, 00:13:27 UTC

Oh man.

Too much, N_A, too much.

[permanent wibble-mode]

comava @ June 25 2004, 00:16:15 UTC

Pansy's death (I can't even write it without feeling horrible) gets to me almost more than Remus' and Lisa's together.

And oh, poor Narcissa - all she has is Draco now.

Where is Snape???

zen_child @ June 25 2004, 00:22:24 UTC

Where is Snape???

I am worried. This whole thing is rather worrying.
But Snape!

bookwench31 @ June 25 2004, 00:24:27 UTC

oh I hadn't even thought about Narcissa. Oh poor Narcissa. And she and Remus had just gotten things patched up.

Where is Snape???
AMEN!

quixotic_sense @ June 25 2004, 00:26:34 UTC

Shit. I've just had a thought. What if Narcissa knew about the attack plans? o_o

comava @ June 25 2004, 00:57:05 UTC

I had a hard time believing that until I remembered the remarks she made when she and Remus were having that huge row... along the lines of "You don't know what I'm capable of!" and "I'm not just a trophy wife!".

*wibble*

dr_jekyl @ June 25 2004, 00:30:35 UTC

*wibbles*

Where art thou, Snape? You're too much of a snarky bastard to die yet!

bookwench31 @ June 25 2004, 00:17:30 UTC

I was holding it together pretty well since I'm at work and can't just burst into tears, unitl Ron's post. The image of Draco and M.B. just sitting there got me. I loved Pansy.

And then Sirius. Oh god. I wanted so badly for Remus to have killed Lucius, but somehow it doesn't make it better.

Now I just feel numb.

empress_nothing @ June 25 2004, 00:26:19 UTC

Group hug, guys.

Holy hell. ;__;

Anonymous @ June 25 2004, 00:47:58 UTC

I can't fucking believe this. Not Remus. Anyone but remus. I have never cried so much in my entire fucking life. Goddamn Nocturne Alley for killing their best character! I am seriously bumming. And bawling. And please tell me this is a cruel joke.

I want Remus/Sirius NC-17 hardcore sex (when they are the age they are in N_A) and I want it right now. And I don't think it's going to help because there is no Remus like N_A Remus.

He can't be dead.

no.

Any other RPs as amazing as this one? WITH REMUS ALIVE PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

Stupid N_A.

Fuck.

Anonymous @ June 25 2004, 01:08:52 UTC

Check out this_is_now.

Anonymous @ June 25 2004, 01:23:39 UTC

Oh this is not at all rude, both of you.

Anonymous @ June 25 2004, 01:34:24 UTC

i'm sorry. my post is terribly rude and uncalled for. the worst part is that this isn't even real. it isn't even real, but n_a was my world. for the most part...ha.

i'll just think up my own rem/sir world with no deaths and everything will be perfect.

i usually don't even say the f word and i was a fiend up there...holy geez.

sorry again, n_a. i still love you. you are my favorite rp but im mad at you.
boo.

darknesse @ June 25 2004, 01:22:46 UTC

Ron's hand is found. It crawled to him.

neveth @ June 25 2004, 01:29:18 UTC

Good hand.

... Holy Grandmother of God, this is just awful. REMUS. ARGH. PANSY. ARGH. LISA. ARGH.

darknesse @ June 25 2004, 02:58:59 UTC

ANGST ANGST ARGH.

dragynville @ June 25 2004, 01:55:14 UTC

I was doing alright through all of this, until I read this part: and then he said he wanted to see him and then he started to cry. And then I started to cry. That just killed me. ;_;

Anonymous @ June 25 2004, 02:30:52 UTC

I was just looking at Draco's profile and seeing all the talk about His Father is just so sad.. He really did love him for all that Lucius was an evil bastard. I really do hope that he doesn't read Sirius's description of Lucius's death.

exhaledeeply @ August 30 2005, 19:02:13 UTC

He was always saving me but I don't think he ever knew it. James said Remus was always the bravest one of us by just getting up every morning and he was right.

D: