trowa @ June 5 2003, 13:19:13 UTC

and the new Slytherin beater is....
Beater 02 -- Lucius Malfoy Jr.?!!!

0_0

dragynville @ June 5 2003, 13:25:10 UTC

That's what I want to know. *nod nod*

shusu @ June 5 2003, 13:26:54 UTC F5 time

Fangirls and bishounen, we have an active thread.

whoyouinvent @ June 5 2003, 13:39:58 UTC Re: F5 time

every time, i find an active thread when i have to go elsewhere. sigh.

siren52684 @ June 5 2003, 13:26:50 UTC

and he came with a reciept, remember?

whoyouinvent @ June 5 2003, 13:38:00 UTC

Or... Vulchanov came with a receipt...

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 13:38:34 UTC

Not Lucius Malfoy Jr.

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 13:26:32 UTC Acciohead

We knew that Hannah listens to Acciohead, she thinks they're "fun to sing too".

Can I mention a personal note? I had hated Radiohead's "Pyramid Song" long ago (back when it was on MTV2 (probably MTV too, but I wouldn't know)). I only recently decided to download "Anyone Can Play Guitar" because of that post, and loving it, downloaded more. Now I am sad that I hated them for so long, because they're very good (though I'm just going to rip my brother's copy of the new album), entirely because of N_A. Don't let anyone tell you that N_A isn't good for you.

shusu @ June 5 2003, 13:28:04 UTC Re: Acciohead

Ah, I mixed her up with someone else. >.>

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 13:28:45 UTC Re: Acciohead

With whom?

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 13:44:09 UTC Re: Acciohead

It IS a cool title, though. I think it flows better than "Karma Police".

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 13:42:00 UTC You've been looking for Magic/You've been holding your wand/Will the aurors believe you now?

Tea Party Hexes would be a good name for a band.

sistermagpie @ June 5 2003, 13:57:46 UTC

Awwww...anybody sensing a little jealousy on both sides of our favorite Slytherin Quidditch teamsters?

hobaggins @ June 5 2003, 14:04:57 UTC

YES!

*prepares to squee*

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 14:05:19 UTC Well, actually, Brooke Haydt is MY favorite

Draco is spitting vitriol over not having enough access to Harry, apparently. This ought to be worth a light squee and/or Draco is a very screwed up little man.

Anonymous @ June 5 2003, 14:35:03 UTC

Interesting-- actually, to me it sounded like M.B. was ticked at Draco (probably due to the Qudditch thing), but with Harry brought into it, it almost sounds like M.B. thinks that they haven't been spending enough time together. Draco tells her to go off and eat cake with Harry, and she says that she will, and that she wouldn't keep Draco from his friends, either. Could this refer to the Platonic!Date?

The other fascinating comment is M.B's direction that Draco should go sit under a rainbow-- a possible comment about his sexuality, but also the outdoor image, ie with tea party.

dragynville @ June 5 2003, 14:36:50 UTC

And a snipe at his size I think (i.e. leprechan).

Anonymous @ June 5 2003, 14:43:36 UTC

Leprechauns are Irish.

dragynville @ June 5 2003, 16:08:10 UTC

She actually called him a leprechaun once didn't she? I can't remember in where though...

sistermagpie @ June 5 2003, 16:18:31 UTC

Yeah, that again made me think this was all about Seamus. M.B. was surprisingly emotional (for M.B.) in her exchange with him in his journal, I thought.

ex_meiko437 @ June 5 2003, 23:17:19 UTC

I thought that, too.. I dont remember her ever being this emotional, save the Pansy debocal

sheron @ June 6 2003, 09:43:42 UTC

Where is Pansy anyway?

sistermagpie @ June 5 2003, 16:17:01 UTC

This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. M.B. doesn't like Seamus. Draco offered her cake and Literati, which is usually what she uses to tempt him/demands of him, and she turned him down--I assumed because she's annoyed at his spending time with Seamus. That seemed to hurt his feelings so he lashed out with his own jealousy, telling her to talk to Potter instead so she said she would. When he said he wouldn't want to keep her from her friends I thought he was saying he thought he was her friend and she responded the same way, I thought.

But I could be wrong.:-)

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 16:43:34 UTC

This definitely feels like M.B. being annoyed at Draco for spending so much time with Seamus and neglecting Harry. Especially when you combine it with M.B. getting pissy, here, with Seamus always putting himself forward in Draco's sights.

So maybe Ron was on to something after all, about Seamus. I can't figure out any other reason for the tension between MB and PS. Could Draco have gotten jealous of JH and MB in the other night's marathon conversation? It's true that eventually it became a long, one-on-one, JH/MB thread, with minimal input from PS, but JH seemed a bit uncomfortable with the snark, and I really didn't see anything in that conversation to make PS feel insecure about JH/MB.

Perhaps something else has happened between PS and JH -- recriminations over the Ron incident? -- that was also behind PS' old post about staying in Cannes?

And the big question -- who's using who? Is Seamus genuinely making a move on Draco, either from calculation or more innocent infatuation? Is Draco using Seamus to make Harry jealous? Is it some mad PS-form of denial, showing he can be "just friends" with people who are gay?

Should be a fun NA weekend coming up. :)

sistermagpie @ June 5 2003, 17:14:00 UTC

I admit when I first read Dean's post about finding Seamus and Draco giggling I did think there was something going on there.

We should also consider, though, that M.B. doesn't like Seamus for her own reasons and not on Harry's behalf. Draco was essentially on Seamus' "side" in his own comment in that thread about Millicent being a true romantic so she may find Seamus' influence on Draco to be very annoying. Regardless of how much Harry and M.B. talked on that one thread, Harry and Draco had obviously spent some quality time together in the hole. I'm with you that Harry really didn't seem that comfortable with M.B. and I think we'd have heard about it if they'd spent time together other than that.

As to what's going on with Seamus and Draco...I'm fascinated. Seamus is now the Gryffindor in Draco's threads and not Harry, and he's seriously familiar with him. One of the most interesting thing about those two for me is that Seamus has initiated all of their time together. He's also the one to draw Draco out saying things like, "Why so coy, are you going to show me the blueprints?" and "Are you just using me when others ignore you?" etc. Seamus is doing the pursuing here, if either of them is. Draco tends to just mention him to others to get him to come a-runnin.

More interestingly, Seamus says things like, "So, tea then?" like it's expected. Draco not only doesn't object that he doesn't call the evening meal "tea" but later in the thread he takes the time to let Seamus know he wasn't making a crack about his height.

So what's Seamus' deal? He's offering to have dinner with Neville and Harry so there doesn't seem to be tension there that he's aware of. Dean seems fine. I just have no clue about Harry because he doesn't post!

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 18:13:54 UTC Re:

M.B. doesn't like Seamus for her own reasons

Actually in the above post I left out what strikes me as one of the strongest bits of evidence, which is that Millicent senses that something is awry in the whole Draco/Seamus connection. And Seamus is really hostile about this, doesn't even bother being diplomatic with M.B.

If Millicent has other reasons for disliking Seamus, what are they? Is there history here I've missed by joining late? I wouldn't think that the dynamics of the thread, the temporary alignment of Draco and Seamus on Millicent being a "romantic," would be that big a deal -- without some underlying animosity, it would just be the usual playfully shifting snarky alliances. But there does seem to be some underlying animosity, related to Seamus popping up all over, and some severe implied criticism of Draco on the Quidditch thread.

Seamus has initiated all of their time together. He's also the one to draw Draco out

Yes, he's being extraordinarily aggressive, isn't he? I had noticed he was always around, but your point, about his initiative, is even stronger.

Draco tends to just mention him to others to get him to come a-runnin.

This of course suggests an alternative possibility, which is that Draco is using Seamus to make Harry jealous, or to test out his own powers. Hard to know at this point, but fun to open up all the possible directions of the action.

He's offering to have dinner with Neville and Harry so there doesn't seem to be tension there that he's aware of. Dean seems fine.

Did you think so? Actually I thought Seamus was deliberately vague about whether Harry would join him for dinner with Neville. And Dean is awfully quiet, after being rather firmly stroked and shushed in the boyfriend thread. Also, he's going off to see Boot's pictures. But maybe I'm just paranoid.

Anyway, bottom line, I'm loving all the possibilities, seriously wondering about Seamus, and waiting eagerly for more evidence!

Anonymous @ June 5 2003, 18:31:02 UTC

((If Millicent has other reasons for disliking Seamus, what are they? Is there history here I've missed by joining late?))

I dont think theres been much history with them two but MB doesnt seem to like people easily to begin with
especially people not from her house
so Seamus is not really scoring any points with her by annoying her even more I think

Pam

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 18:43:51 UTC Re:

There was of course the famous double date last month, but I wonder if that was really quite enough to create a durable enmity.

Anonymous @ June 5 2003, 18:52:22 UTC

Oh yes!
Almost forgot about that one :)
Looks like they didnt get on very well!

Pam

Anonymous @ June 5 2003, 18:27:33 UTC

We should also consider, though, that M.B. doesn't like Seamus for her own reasons and not on Harry's behalf.

!!!

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 18:34:18 UTC

Cool to know! *tosses several theories in the wastebasket and comes up with new ones* I should never doubt Magpie, anyway.

sistermagpie @ June 6 2003, 13:29:27 UTC

Oh god--that's a recipe for disaster.

DOUBT ME! DOUBT ME! For I am clueless! Trust only the gold star of knowledge! :D

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 13:45:55 UTC Re:

*laughs* but I am flighty and enjoy trying on ten sides of every issue, whereas I keep coming to rest in the sensibleness of your own judgments!

Nevertheless, I am still harsher on Seamus than you are, so pfffffft!

Speaking of which, there is a post of yours from this morning that I must go and address . . .

takeonelook @ June 5 2003, 16:36:38 UTC

It seems like Draco is still a bit jealous of Millicent and Harry talking/spending time together like on the Literati thread. Maybe that's a reason for why he's spending so much time with Seamus. Millicent realizes that his jealousy is ridiculous, especially since they are only becoming friends because of Draco, and is getting mad at him for spending so much time/speaking with Seamus. Hence her 'not keeping you from your new friends' comment. Also Millicent probably sees the flirty undertones and knows that it's possibly going to drive Harry away.

We really don't know what's going on with Harry at all since he hasn't posted in a while, so this is all speculation. But could it be that Harry isin't replying to Draco's posts because he feels like Draco would rather spend time with Seamus? I mean we know that Harry has problems with feeling unwanted. Or maybe Draco himself pushed Harry away after the literati thread and now Harry's not sure about Draco. I remember how Millicent said something to Harry about souflees and then later she asked Draco about them and he said they were in Hogsmeade so she replied 'mission failed.' That's where we all got the whole idea for D/H spending time together after that thread. Yet perhaps Harry was supposed to invite him to Hogsmeade (Millicent knew this) and did, and Draco being the stubborn brat that we love, said no, still miffed about the whole Literati thread. So then Draco starts spending time with Seamus, Millicent thinks he's being stupid, and Harry feels hurt and maybe even a little jealous of Seamus. We all know Harry doesn't post much, but this is especially true when he is hurt/embarrased, so maybe that's a clue as to why he hasn't been posting.

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 16:41:15 UTC

He never reveals anything in his posts anyway.

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 16:51:46 UTC

As for how Harry's been spending his time -- there's a very interesting little aside, here, in Seamus' post on the Neville thread.
So now it's Seamus slipping out for mysterious meetings, while Harry is hanging out with Hermione?

The plot thickens.

sistermagpie @ June 5 2003, 16:56:23 UTC

Technically he says Harry and Hermione are in and out, so they might not be going in and out together. I thought Seamus' project referred to the surprise he's putting together for Dean.

I presume Harry and Draco did get together Monday night as planned, at least, since Sirius said Harry wasn't around...

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 17:10:07 UTC Re:

Could be, could be. I'm loving the ambiguities, though. Plenty of reasons here for raising eyebrows at Seamus. Mostly, I'm fascinated by M.B.'s gut reaction.

takeonelook @ June 5 2003, 16:59:26 UTC

Yeah I saw that. Hmm. Made me wonder. I had to read it over and over again because I wasn't sure if Seamus meant Harry and Hermoine together, or if he meant that both of them had been in and out though not necessarily with the other. But I suspect that's just me reading more into things because I don't like the implications of Harry and Hermoine hanging out while Seamus is the one with secret meetings.

As much as I love Seamus, I'm beginning to question his motives.

sistermagpie @ June 5 2003, 17:17:42 UTC

Seamus really seems to be all over that boy! But then, Seamus' meetings aren't really secret. He's got something going on for Dean but his meetings with Draco appear to be just what we hear about: they make a date to look at magazines, Dean sees them. They make a date to look at blueprints, the Hufflepuffs see them. (And each time they're doing somethng girlie like playing with paper dolls or having a tea party.)

Still I don't like not hearing about meetings with Harry...unless of course they're being more discreet after the thing with Ron.

takeonelook @ June 5 2003, 17:50:54 UTC

The fact that Seamus and Draco are spending time together doesn't make me suspicious. Like you said it has been very public (I guess for a sec I thought in his comment to Neville Seamus's outing had to do with Draco and not Dean's present, hence I said secret meetings), and if anything it's as though Seamus is bringing out the 'gay' in Draco. It's the flirtatious undertones that you described in an above post that has me weary. That and the complete lack of H/D interaction. It's making the H/D part of me a little nervous.

It could be that D/H are being more discreet because of Ron, but I think after the whole debacle that that would not be necessary. Ron knows how wrong he was and is afraid of making assumptions like that again. So even if he thought something I'm not sure Ron would say it, because Draco and Harry would 'kill him.' However Draco and Harry could be acting more discreet because they don't want others making assumptions like Ron did. Yet if that is the case, then Draco obviously doesn't realize that his interaction with Seamus can be just as misinterpreted. It is true that Harry fancies him, but Seamus openly flirts, well kinda, with him, which will raise the same suspicions.

Gah! And to think I'm going to be out of town for three weeks starting tomorrow! Three weeks before I'll know what's going on with Seamus and Draco and Harry!
::dies::

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 17:21:10 UTC Re:

Hmmm, let's see, what's the cumulative evidence on the Seamus question?

1. Ron, who may act like a fool but is pretty well tuned in to things involving Harry, felt that Seamus was making a move on Draco.

2. Seamus protests way too much on the Percy thread.

3. The Seamus/Dean interaction on the "boyfriend" thread feels a bit soppy and un-Seamus-like to me. He often talks this way to Dean, but that may itself raise a caution.

4. It's amusing that on the post Seamus dedicated to his boyfriend, he's mostly kind of manipulative in his direct exchanges with Dean while carrying on an extended flirtation with Draco and a quarrel with Millicent that seems to have that flirtation as its subtext.

5. Boot has pictures.

6. Seamus is going out of his way to jump into pretty much every thread on which Draco is active, including the "Literati thread" (after the fact), and the Cannes thread.

Like I said on another post, if Dean got worked up about Seamus and PS giggling over fashion, what is he supposed to make of all this? And if Harry has handled PS with kid gloves, what is he to make of the very overt way Seamus is putting himself forward, here?

sistermagpie @ June 5 2003, 17:31:21 UTC

Yeah, remember how when Dean caught them with the paper dolls Seamus was immediately running after him with "Baby this" and "Baby that." Draco was only concerned with defending his honor over making paper dolls. Seamus' reaction, I thought, seemed a bit more guilty.

Poor Harry if this is the case. He's obviously being careful because of Draco's outing post but now he's got himself jumping through hoops. But then, Draco's still in denial, it seems. If Seamus were to actually try something who knows where it would lead? He could flip out--though he wouldn't be able to out anyone over it. We talked about ps playing with fire and he seriously seems to be doing that here. For somebody who claims to be straight he certainly finds himself in the middle of a lot of homosexual scandals, doesn't he?

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 17:59:35 UTC Re:

We talked about ps playing with fire

The irony is, I think it's Seamus playing with fire, here. I mean, part of the fun (and an indicator of how well played this all is) is that everything is still ambiguous, everything could still admit of a perfectly innocent explanation. Except for the fact that Seamus is making a spectacle of himself, whether he intends anything or not.

Given the sensitivities here, this is a case where appearances matter, and it's ironic that Seamus, normally the master of subtlety, either doesn't know or doesn't care that he's raising eyebrows here. It's got to be confusing the hell out of both Dean and Harry. And it's even spooked Draco a bit, since he's using his "shapely girlfriend" icon in some of his exchanges with Seamus.

It would, of course, be grossly unfair to come to any conclusions. ;) But Seamus has certainly sent the gossip mills spinning.

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 19:05:50 UTC

This is silly, but I felt I needed to share it:
Perhaps, because Seamus is being such a fruit, girlfriend refers to Seamus, and it's teasing. It can (and probably would), of course, be non-romantic/sexual, but just friends and adopting the "girlfriend" refers to platonic friends thingy. (Remember, gay people can have friends of their own gender, in case you forget.)

Anonymous @ June 6 2003, 00:52:27 UTC

Or it could be Draco trying to remind Seamus that he's in a relationship; I don't know if it means much, but the expression in that icon has always struck me as unfriendly.

-HedgeMouse

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 13:54:25 UTC Re:

Perhaps, because Seamus is being such a fruit, girlfriend refers to Seamus, and it's teasing.

I would love to think that Draco had enough distance on himself, and sense of humor about himself, to use it in just this way. I don't know, I can't help taking the total context of the remark as Draco backing off in anxiety. (The comment I'm thinking of is the one where Seamus proposes that Draco bring his own blanket, and comments on his delicate skin. Draco's response sounded a bit awkward to me.) But then, I was surprised by today's post where PS implicitly said Seamus couldn't be his boyfriend because he was a halfblood, not because he was, er, a boy. So who knows?

Remember, gay people can have friends of their own gender

I am not likely to forget that! ;) But it's a valid point about Seamus. I've certainly been an early adopter of the Seamus-is-up-to-something theory, but always, I hope, with a sense of the wonderful ambiguity of how things are being played. And it's interesting that the first overt, explicit accusation against Seamus (not counting oblique hints, like Ron's) is put in the mouth of Terry Boot, who tends to have a rather extravagant theater constantly running in his own head. So, after drawing us out, the NAsties now seem to be having their fun by making us back off our suspicions!

Always interesting.

Anonymous @ June 5 2003, 22:22:14 UTC Seamus-Draco and Dean and Harry

3. The Seamus/Dean interaction on the "boyfriend" thread feels a bit soppy and un-Seamus-like to me. He often talks this way to Dean, but that may itself raise a caution.

I agree with this point.

My own personal take on the Draco-Seamus thing?
Seamus, after spending time with Draco--has a bit of a crush. He's trying to be good, and has made sure not to act in any way that couldn't be defended in court, but still... he knows he's got a bit of a crush and is indulging it.

As for Draco, I think he enjoys hanging out with someone who can interact "properly" with him and who has a bit of a crush on him (egoboost).

Harry, despite his feelings, has never seemed to me to be as... confidently flirty as Seamus. He's more the quiet, tolerant type (golf clubs) and the toe-to-toe you-are-not-getting-any-breaks snarky type (recently).

So, Seamus is much easier for Draco to take because he has less at stake emotionally (hee! my H/D shippiness has survived despite it all N_A!! *not fully broken yet!*). He won't get nervous about what to say, how to act, what to do with his hands etc. He can sense that Seamus wants to please. Seamus *unlike* M.B. and even Harry at times, has not called him on any of his behavior recently. And Seamus has a certain charm.

Seamus may find Draco a bit of a nice change from Dean. Now I have a crush on Dean, and perhaps one day we will get that house together across the street from Ginny and Cho, but to someone like Seamus, he might sometimes seem not *exciting* enough. After all, wasn't there that spat they had about the message flashed on the Quidditch score board as not the best gift? Dean is more a simple, down to earth guy like Harry. He wears black all the time because it's practical and he can't be arsed.

Compared to that, Draco may seem all exciting and spicy and (although we can't know for sure)... perhaps Seamus just plain old finds him cuter? (17 year old hormones are quite a force on their own)


More thoughts on Seamus:

I think Seamus is a bit of an opportunist himself. Perhaps even unconsciously. And not that this means I think he is evil and maliciously sly.

But Seamus' behavior has made me vaguely uneasy ever since the "outing thread" where (I felt) he was more essentially pushing gay rights than truly trying to help out/ defend Harry.

Now he's all about making friends with Draco. Well, maybe he *started* out on this route just to help out/understand Harry, since he's always been pretty unimpressed with Draco on his own, but I think at close semi-friendly quarters, he's been a bit dazzled by Draco. And by the fact that he managed to somehow get Draco to act nicely towards him. I don't think he's consciously planning to cause trouble/pain, but I see some major iffiness on the horizon.

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 08:26:18 UTC Re: Seamus-Draco and Dean and Harry

One of the things I've really enjoyed about the whole Seamus-Draco subplot is that we've had a chance to see Seamus as human, Seamus as emotionally vulnerable and not always sure-footed. I loved Seamus as hero and wise friend after the outing, but he has a chance to be even more complex and intriguing here, to really pull the reader into some of the inner clockwork in his character.

The Seamus/Dean relationship seems like a fascinating puzzle. I confess I've never seen them as an obvious match, and it makes me wonder what they're about. Without doubting the love that Seamus feels (and certainly not the attraction), I can see Seamus lying awake at night wondering if Dean is exciting enough, sociable enough, to be a satisfying long-term companion. The whole dust-up over the "Seamus Rox" outing seems to be about Seamus' bitterness that Dean is too inescapably ordinary and conventional, will never be quite what Seamus needs to be truly happy. On the other hand, sometimes it feels is though Dean is serving as a refuge from something inside Seamus that Seamus himself doesn't like -- stability instead of volatility, straightforwardness instead of social masquerading, calmness instead of anger. The way Seamus sometimes talks to Dean -- the babying, the soppiness -- could reflect his fascination with someone different from him, someone he has to put in a special place, deal with in a special way, if that makes sense.

Draco, by contrast, is very much the anti-Dean, and maybe even connects with something Seamus recognizes in himself, just a little bit. I can see Seamus indulging his infatuation with Draco because, after all, Seamus has a boyfriend and Draco is in denial, so what could be safer? And then gradually they get in a bit deeper, emotionally, than they expected . . .

I'm fascinated that you call Seamus a bit of an opportunist. Could this be one of the things he doesn't like about himself? I have occasionally felt that there was a certain passive-aggressive, too-little, too-late quality to some of his heroic not-quite-interventions, such as when he was a bit too slow in deleting Ron's posts.

As for Draco, I'm afraid that even with my H/D passion, I can see a dynamic playing out that's similar to Seamus/Dean. Harry is fun, but judging by surfaces, he's maybe not as scintillating as Seamus. Harry is a challenge, he makes demands implicitly and explicitly; Seamus aims to please. Harry may be more satisfying as a total emotional connection, but Seamus is more tempting for an afternoon's tea on the lawn, and for fantasies about redecorating the manor at Cannes. And as you point out, Seamus is simply less threatening, he lets PS explore his own possible homosexuality at a kind of arm's length, while Harry presents the immediate and frightening prospect of a relationship.

Well, I don't find myself narrowing down to any conclusions here -- instead this seems to be about opening up the various possibilities of Seamus' character and the Seamus-Draco-Harry triangle. But that is fascinating in itself. And it whets my appetite for more NA.

notapipe @ June 5 2003, 17:23:07 UTC Gryffinswingers

So the current time pairings are:
Harry/Hermoine
Seamus/Draco
M.B./Quidditch/Possibly Pansy
Ernie/Hannah
Colin/Hate
Neville/Evil
Terry/Dean
Ron/Elsewhere

Did I miss anythiing?

black_dog @ June 5 2003, 17:47:54 UTC Re: Gryffinswingers

Snape/Lily

dragynville @ June 5 2003, 14:35:07 UTC Re: Well, actually, Brooke Haydt is MY favorite

Draco is a screwed up little man and it's still squee-worthy. XD

Anonymous @ June 5 2003, 19:14:37 UTC

So .... basically any time Draco speaks to anyone that isn't Harry, it is going to be a new pairing, and if Harry's name is mentioned beside Hermione's it's suspicious.

kiss_me_again @ June 5 2003, 22:50:11 UTC ...

That's...somewhat harsh of you, wouldn't you say We’re all just offering our various thoughts, observations, and speculations, here; I believe that’s what this community is for. If you don’t agree, why don’t you say something constructive instead? It’ll make for a much nicer time had by all, I assure you.
--Miranda

fluffers @ June 5 2003, 21:08:03 UTC

Chaser 01 -- Audrey Bysmal.

A.Bysmal?

Oh, MB, how I ::heart:: thee.

kiss_me_again @ June 5 2003, 22:39:36 UTC Just adding a bit to the conversation…

I really don’t think that Seamus is intentionally flirting with Draco; he is, for all intents and purposes, deeply enamored with Dean and simply trying to develop a friendship with somebody who shares some of his same interests. I somehow doubt that there are very few Gryffindor boys who are willing to discuss fashion and remodeling with him, after all.
He has the equivalent of, as someone said earlier, a new “girlfriend” to talk to and spend time with, rather than a “buddy” (per se).
He has, understandably, tried to interact with Draco in a more civilized and easy-going fashion than before, emulating the silly small talk, banter, and pseudo-flirtation he has seen Draco engage in with his other “friends.” And, as a result of his efforts, the two are once again spending more time together.
All perfectly innocent and understandable, right?
But…here, I have some doubts.
I mean, we all know that Seamus has vehemently denied trying to dominate Malfoy’s time in order to pursue a future relationship, right?
We know how he attacked Ron for his assumptions and moaned and groaned about needing to spend more time with Dean during that whole affair.
But once he gets Dean “back to himself” again (so to speak), what does he do?
He spends more time than ever hanging around Malfoy, flirting with him on his journal and setting up a quaint picnic under a flimsy pretense while his boyfriend is off gallivanting with Boots and his purple beans under the stairs.
Meanwhile, Millicent witnesses this blossoming friendship and does not like it. At all.
See, she actually likes Harry; she doesn’t mind his presence in their group of friends because she approves of him and likes teasing/talking to him.
But she has no cause to like Seamus; she does not know him, nor does she care to know him. Her exchanges with him, you’ll notice, are decidedly less friendly and blatantly more hostile than her conversations with friends; this is exhibited (eventually) by both parties. (Examples: “Yeah. My journal. Comment at your own risk, sunshine.” “Still appears to be a conversation happening in, and prompted by, a post of MINE. So, if you want to have a private conversation, go have it in some deserted hallway, as I am so unafraid of you.” “Of course, you have never commented in any posts of mine uninvited.” “What, exactly, is your damage, Millie?” “I am hostile towards people I do not like.” “Since I don't recall signing up to be your friend, why don't you go back under the rock from which you came?”)
She sees Seamus as a new and invasive presence in an otherwise intimate group of friends. (She won’t trade snark with just anybody, you know.)
Draco is perceived as the source of this incursion, and is thus treated to the figurative “cold shoulder” and downright unfriendliness. (He, obviously, had no clue about her upset state, as evidenced by his warm response to her Quidditch game post and his attempts later in that thread to lighten up the conversation. Unfortunately, he gave up trying to be amicable when she kept responding negatively; now they’ve gone and had a fight, and Draco still probably has no clue what sparked it; he does not understand the intricate and convoluted pathways that compromise the patterns of female thought, and has suffered for it).
Continued in following post, due to length...

kiss_me_again @ June 5 2003, 22:41:53 UTC Just adding a bit to the conversation…con't

(Continued from "and has suffered for it.")
And Harry? What of his absence?
Here, I must yet again agree with what someone stated earlier (it was takeonelook, to be exact =o). I believe that that boy must have some serious self-esteem issues after being treated like dirt by his own family for so long; he is probably steering clear from Malfoy right now because he feels that his presence would be unwanted, or at least certainly less desirable to Draco than Seamus’s company. Poor Harry. #whisks him away#
Ah, but this is all but my long-winded speculation. I am ignorant of the inner happenings of NA! #weeps#
#clears throat importantly# …But that is beside the point.
Of course, I am also very biased because I am a rabid D/H shipper (OTP, baby), and thus view any time taken away from potential D/H bonding at the beginnings of their fragile, possibly beautiful, and certainly somewhat awkward relationship as bad bad bad and immediately take it upon myself to persecute it (the “it,” in this case, being Seamus).
Also, I am very possibly in love with M.B. because she is always right and clearly God (as previously stated), and so am compelled to side with her in any and all things, despite the fact that I really do like Seamus (it’s truly a sign of how great these players are that they can get us so riled up over a picnic and such ^_~).
But—enough of my ramblings.
Bye for now, fellow nragers!
—Miranda, the two-bit philosopher

tymbrimi @ June 5 2003, 23:24:35 UTC my 2 cents

yes, thats definitely how I saw MB in that Seamus thread. She wants to 'keep' Harry because she likes him and Draco together (see "hole" incident ;)) and Seamus is just an annoyance. Definitely an all-knowing goddess if you ask me.

I really don’t think that Seamus is intentionally flirting with Draco
but he's doing a rather good job of it unintentionally I'd say.

not that it matters now *sneaks glance at dean/terry*

I'm not much at the whole psychoanalysis bit, but you NrAged-ers are goooooooooooood XD

sheron @ June 6 2003, 09:42:08 UTC Re: Just adding a bit to the conversation…

But once he gets Dean “back to himself” again (so to speak), what does he do?
He spends more time than ever hanging around Malfoy, flirting with him on his journal and setting up a quaint picnic under a flimsy pretense while his boyfriend is off gallivanting with Boots and his purple beans under the stairs.


But he did get Dean to himself for a while, after he finally unglued Ron from Dean. And isn't it presumptuous to expect him to have no other interests than his boyfriend?

And yes, Draco is so clueless in the exchanges with M.B. that I hope upon reflection she can see he has no idea.

ex_meiko437 @ June 5 2003, 23:28:40 UTC

I was thinking along the lines of the anon poster a few bits up. It's amusing and all to speculate, but I've noticed people taking Draco/Seamus seriously.. Seamus even made a post to debunk those rumors. Seamus really only enjoys spending time with Draco, possibly to help him sort out his sexuality in the long run. Seamus was among the first to insinuate that Draco was homosexual. By creating a bridge between them and creating a trusting, mutual, close friendship, and having Draco know someone he respects and enjoys whom is also gay, may help Draco come to terms with his feelings. It would greatly help his homophobia to see that not all gay people are evil, sinful creatures. I think Seamus is working on harry's behalf and happens to enjoy Draco's mutual interests. Seamus is using this opportunity. However, I doubt that it is anything more than friendship.

Made short: i disagree with the people saying Seamus has a crush on Draco. He has feelings for Dean which are obvious..

Above anything else, Seamus is very loyal, and has proven himself to be the most level-headed person out there. Why would he have reason to even think of getting a crush on Draco malfoy, when he's been empathetic to harry when it was outted that Harry was gay and liked Draco? Seamus would never, I don't think. Even if he DID have a crush on Draco, Seamus is the type of person who would ignore it in favor of loyalties to his friends, and to Dean. I doubt he'd ever want to see Dean hurt.

About the whole overly-sappy and defensive theories: I genuinely think Seamus is annoyed that everyone in the NA world is pairing him with Draco

I dont think Draco enjoys Seamus over Harry. Yes, he penned an owl to Finnigan. But he made plans to see harry. Big difference. :)

Speculation is healthy, but I think on this one we're going a bit too much into it.

sistermagpie @ June 6 2003, 07:10:46 UTC

Yes, Seamus is simply not the type to be manipulating Draco and trying to "steal" him from Harry. His interactions with him have been entirely above board and out in the open. (It's Seamus who got burned. Poor Seamus.)

I think the flirting is a bit unintentional as well, to tell the truth. We now know that Seamus suggested that Dean use Draco as a model and I think this is because Seamus does, as I've said before, find Draco physically attractive--but that doesn't mean he's trying to go out with him. Draco's own dealings with Seamus have also been sweetly innocent.

Regarding Seamus getting Draco more comfortable with his sexuality I think that's perfectly possible. And while I wouldn't chalk this up to Seamus necessarily, it seems to be working. That's twice now that Draco has been accused of being in a relationship with a guy. With Harry he went off because he thought "Potter" was telling tales and presuming too much. With Seamus he says he's a halfblood--nothing there about not dating boys.

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 07:40:58 UTC

With Seamus he says he's a halfblood--nothing there about not dating boys.

Oh, that's a really good point. It's almost as if Seamus would otherwise be a perfectly reasonable candidate for dating. Unconscious breakthrough for PS??

I guess I'm a bit more skeptical of Seamus' actions than you are -- even if he's just infatuated, and not acting out of calculation -- but I've beaten that to death above and have no illusions that I could be completely off. kiss_me_again makes an interesting new point, though, about how Seamus has been complaining about his lack of time with Dean, but then goes off and leaves Dean alone for Malfoy.

Anyway, I don't want to judge Seamus in black and white, it's just endearing to see him as human and not just saintly. My heart went out to him when he protested about making "one new friend, just one" -- what a nice tribute to Draco, too. But I really do think he has, at a minimum, misjudged appearances and has not thought enough about the impact of what he was doing on Dean. Why weren't they together enough for him to explain?

It'll be interesting to see how the breakup plays out -- whether Seamus can understand why Dean was hurt, how much effort he puts into reconciliation, whether Malfoy himself helps with the reconciliation (assuming nothing was going on.)

And I feel very badly for Harry, but that's another post.

sistermagpie @ June 6 2003, 08:45:47 UTC

I'm not sure exactly how to take what Seamus is doing. I mean, he's obviously the one doing most of the initiating in his interactions with Malfoy, but he appears to be telling the truth about exactly how much time they're spending together: 3 hours in the library and one tea out on the lawn. Malfoy sent him an owl. Perhaps he's also talking to much about Malfoy to Dean, but that in itself could also indicate that he feels he's got nothing to hide.

M.B. doesn't like Seamus and that's of course good reason to be suspicious of him, but I'm not sure why she doesn't like him yet. Is it because of a specific incident or because she doesn't like his influence on Draco? Draco's very vulnerable when it comes to friends--remember what a patsy he was for Sallie-Anne. Underneath all his obnoxiousness he really does seem to want people he respects to like him. His actions seem to indicate he has something invested in his relationship with Seamus. That he stayed out of the Dean thread really surprised me. He ignored the picture completely and just said he wouldn't go out with Seamus and Dean and Boot were disgusting. I guess I just can't let go of the impression that Draco is clueless, particularly about sexual things. I can't get over the idea that he desperately wants friends still and is still almost too immature to be in a relationship.

If Seamus hasn't really done wrong (whatever his inner thoughts) then it's him who's been treated badly. There's a lot of hostility in Dean's drunken posts and none of it points to any more than exactly what we know: paper dolls and tea parties. Dean's obviously been suspicious of this the whole time but is that because Seamus didn't explain it? His anger over Seamus' suggestion of using Malfoy as a model...is that a smart reaction to Seamus' trying to bring Malfoy in and see him naked or is it just jealousy on Dean's part? Hard to tell. Obviously Seamus has been talking about Malfoy to Dean if he suggested that--talking too much, perhaps? Or is Dean just oversensitive?

Seamus spends a lot of time saying there's nothing going on with Draco. Is that him protesting too much or protesting until somebody hears it? Because really, nobody ever seems to. Percy didn't (he sidestepped by saying he wouldn't "judge" how much time was "too much"), Ron doesn't seem to have, Dean hasn't, Terry hasn't.

whether Seamus can understand why Dean was hurt,

Ah, but that's the rub. Why was Dean hurt? See, Seamus really isn't spending that much actual time with Malfoy. The paper dolls took place while Dean was buried in his artwork. After that they were separated not by Malfoy but Harry when Seamus went to Hogsmeade with him. I myself was confused when Terry started talking about "revenge" to Dean because I couldn't figure out what Draco had done. The only time Seamus has left Dean alone for Malfoy was when they had tea--which itself was right before Terry set up a meeting with Dean that actually did include cheating. Whatever Seamus' intentions he and Draco don't appear to have actually done anything...has Seamus been so hurtful to Dean through Malfoy to warrant this kind of thing? I can't help but wonder about the surprise Seamus talked about which may account for some time away from Dean.

Then there's Harry--who knows what he's thinking? This is a sensitive subject for him, obviously, so I don't think he could avoid being frightened at the prospect of Draco preferring Seamus over him, but it's too soon to tell if he's as insecure about not knowing about design and fashion as Ron was. I wonder, for instance, how he took Draco's freak-out over his new clothes--was he hurt that Draco didn't compliment them or charmed that he revealed how much he liked Harry in his old clothes? Poor Harry is only admitting to spending time with Runespoors. I don't like not having confirmed H/D time!!!

sheron @ June 6 2003, 09:35:41 UTC

I can't get over the idea that he desperately wants friends still and is still almost too immature to be in a relationship.

I can't help thinking that he keeps getting burned when he is trying to be friends. First if was Harry, a few times. Now it seems to be Seamus.

There's a lot of hostility in Dean's drunken posts and none of it points to any more than exactly what we know: paper dolls and tea parties. Dean's obviously been suspicious of this the whole time but is that because Seamus didn't explain it?

I think we should also take into account that he was drunk. He would never have suggested anything of the sort if he wasn't. I don't like to think that he's only true to his feelings when he is drunk and I therefore assume that it was alcohol influencing his thinking. But he did say those things so it's too late to take them back.

I myself was confused when Terry started talking about "revenge" to Dean because I couldn't figure out what Draco had done.

I also had a thought that Terry obviously already knew about Dean's misgivings before the tea-party. When did Dean even find the time to tell him if he didn't find the time to tell Seamus?

His dislike of Draco in particular might have something to do with Dean being so sensitive about his sexuality and that Draco had previously pushed those buttons. I remember Dean being really upset at the time of that whole outing-Harry fiasco. Maybe that's what this post is about?

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 14:29:43 UTC Re:

It's kind of funny, I initially took up my Seamus-is-up-to-something position in part to be a contrarian, because everyone else was assuming (and I was at first assuming) that Ron made it up out of whole cloth. Now that it's become a credible viewpoint, I am of course tempted to reconsider. But I still find myself unable to let Seamus entirely off the hook.

You may be correct about the time they've spent together -- although there remains some question about what exactly Seamus was "out" doing the night of the Neville disaster. But I think in addition to time, there's also the question of tone -- he's consistently flirtatious with Draco -- and effort -- he goes out of his way to talk to Draco, and to spend time with him, right after a week when he's had limited time with Dean, and you'd think his first priority would be Dean. Another revealing bit of subtext, I think, is today's comment to Dean -- in effect, "I put up with you having Boot for a friend all this time, you could at least put up with Malfoy." Is there an implied equivalence, and does it mean anything?

It's trickier to argue from Dean's reaction. You call him "oversensitive," and I might be inclined to agree, objectively. But in RL I'm very wary of the word because it's a tool for deligitimizing someone's feelings, when those feelings themselves are the issue. I'm inclined to judge Seamus on the theory that he should know his boyfriend well enough to know when his feelings might get hurt, and to worry about that whether it's reasonable or not. I really do think Seamus' judgment suffered here, from an infatuation that may or may not have been fully conscious.

Like you, I'm intrigued that Draco stayed (relatively) out of this morning's discussion. Actually, he intervened in a positive way (positive by PS' standards, anyway). Not only did he refuse the bait of the picture, but his "Attention: Moron" post seemed intended to defuse Dean's suspicions, reassure him about his boyfriend. He backs away in digust because Dean and Terry are both drunk and impervious to argument ("Terry, eat his head!")

I don't like not having confirmed H/D time!!!

You know, I think it's precisely that lack that's creating a sort of background anxiety, that's maybe influencing people's interpretations of Seamus/Draco. Harry seems very subdued and even bitter when he talks about the Runespoors. (Someone -- was it you? -- made the wonderful suggestion that he was also using them as a metaphor for his dorm-mates.) He's had a long talk with Ron. He refuses to "play" on Millicent's terms. He's ready to leave now for summer break. It doesn't seem that things are going well between him and PS, though it's wonderfully frustrating not to know the details.

It's sad to see everybody so down. On the other hand, hopefully NA moves in cycles and we'll see some reconciliations soon. Ron/Harry was a start, and it was surprisingly good to hear Ron's voice.

sistermagpie @ June 6 2003, 16:36:00 UTC

But I think in addition to time, there's also the question of tone

Absolutely. One of the things I "like" (shame on me) in the whole Malfoy/Seamus interraction is their chemistry. I can believe Draco is half-unaware of it but Seamus really can't be. He's an old hand. And his first response to Dean's finding them in the library did seem to be guilt at being caught with Draco. If I've had these thoughts about Seamus/Draco it sure makes sense that Dean has!

You call him "oversensitive,"

Oh, I'm not actually calling him oversensitive I'm just throwing out that extreme to balance the other extreme possibility, that Dean is just seeing the subtext here and responding appropriately to it (until he took his clothes off). Part of the difficult thing is this ineffable "subtext" and "intention" floating around in this friendship. We've all seen people who aren't actually doing something with another person but it's still clear their significant other has every reason to be jealous.

One thing that makes me pull back from this theory now, though, is that Dean now seems to be pointing the blame on it being Malfoy, that Malfoy drives him up the wall. That makes it sound like it's not about being abandoned or insecure, unless he's using that as a cover. I wonder if we will ever find out about the surprise Seamus was planning. Seamus actually seems to have more than one thing going on besides Draco--the surprise for Dean and also something he spoke about with Sirius and decided against after talking to Remus.

Not only did he refuse the bait of the picture, but his "Attention: Moron" post seemed intended to defuse Dean's suspicions, reassure him about his boyfriend.

Yes, that's what I thought was interesting. He didn't speak for Seamus or really get defensive in the way Seamus himself might have ("We were just drinking tea!!") or even make it all about himself: "Why does everyone have fantasies about me!" In a way he took the best road--Malfoy snobbery: "Like I'd ever have anything to do with him." I'm not sure exactly why he left it at that rather than taunting Dean in his disgrace. He could actually be trying not to disturb Seamus himself--I'm still reeling over his correcting Seamus' impression that he was insulting him over being short. Seamus seems to actually think Draco's got some interesting things to say and that might seem very important to Draco.

You know, I think it's precisely that lack that's creating a sort of background anxiety, that's maybe influencing people's interpretations of Seamus/Draco..

I think so. (Yeah, that was me with the Enigma-Runespoor-code Theory. Ha!;-)

I'm very much wanting to know what Ron and Harry talked about. I worry Harry's giving up on something he shouldn't be and that would be sad. For instance, he says in his post that he's hoping Ron and Hermione can come over the summer and that Ron can travel with him on break and that's great because Ron's his friend but...is he just deciding to play it safe and not go for what he really wants? I mean, Ron's Harry's best mate and loves him but he does have a tendency to think Harry should just get with the program and be happy with what makes Ron happy. Hermione, too, doesn't understand his attraction to Draco. It just sort of sounds like he's saying that he doesn't need any romance, he'll just be happy with Ron and Hermione like they used to be. At least he won't get his head torn off that way. Meanwhile Ron and Hermione will surely get back together leaving him back where he started, always being the person without someone.:-(

And Ron's post is a little too "back in the saddle again" for me to be completely comfortable with it. He's got Harry Potter memorabilia, he's happy to be mentioned in a book as Harry's best friend, he's pronouncing Seamus the Bad Guy that Dean can do without, who deserved getting cheated on for hanging out with the enemy. I feel like Ron may feel like The Dark Age of Malfoy has finally passed and things are back the way they should be, but I really think the only person who would really be happy with that would be Ron (and maybe Hermione).

ETA: At least M.B. isn't letting him get away. Hello, Potter.:-)

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 18:23:08 UTC

He's an old hand.

Exactly. Seamus gets judged a bit more harshly than others, because he's sophisticated enough to know what he's doing, and understand the consequences.

I'm just throwing out that extreme to balance the other extreme possibility, that Dean is just seeing the subtext here and responding appropriately to it

Oh absolutely, we shouldn't fall into the trap of justifying Dean. Although he had Boot working on him with insinuations and firewhiskey. He still should have known better than to lose it the way he did. But I'm responding to people who think his jealousy was unjustified. I mean -- and this just occurred to me in answering the post below -- Seamus was jealous of Ron on much flimsier evidence. I think Dean was entitled to feel hurt.

I'm not sure exactly why he left it at that rather than taunting Dean in his disgrace.

Just a pure speculation -- could Draco be frightened of the thought of Seamus as an unattached free agent? Maybe his sense of security in his friendship with Seamus comes from the fact that Seamus is safely linked with Dean, unlike Harry. So he's alarmed by the thought of a breakup.

I'm still reeling over his correcting Seamus' impression that he was insulting him over being short.

Actually, I'm a little puzzled by what he's doing here. I thought he was originally alluding to doll-houses when he talked about scaling down, then played off Seamus' "cottage" comment by pretending he meant real miniature sofas for his cottage. All playful so far, all about keeping up. But it feels like he freaks out a bit when Seamus mentions blankets -- maybe he thinks mention of real couches has too much subtext -- so his final comment seems to refer again, implicitly, to dollhouses. And he ignores the blanket comment. And deploys his "shapely girlfriend" icon. I sensed anxiety here, more than anything else. Was he backing off the implied insult, or the couch/blanket subtext?

I'm very much wanting to know what Ron and Harry talked about. I worry Harry's giving up on something he shouldn't be and that would be sad.

Yeah, it all feels gloomy, but there's zero evidence. I'm too baffled to even speculate.

And Ron's post is a little too "back in the saddle again" for me

Yeah. Note the Chudley Cannons icon on the post. Not only is there a sense of the Dark Age being over, but it feels like he's longing for a general retreat from the complexities and upsets of romance. Take a shower, Dean, and let's all go back to being buddies again! Nothing to get worked up about here! Poor Ron. I love him, but he's got to grow up.

At least M.B. isn't letting him get away. Hello, Potter.

This threw me a little. "Hello Potter" was what Draco said when he stepped away from the TBWL game. (Among other possible parallels.) Is it an invitation to straight talk? And yet, Millicent seemingly insists on him playing along with the code -- "Hello, M.B.", presumably -- and won't reward him when he won't find the right formula. Harry seems to play for a while, and get tired of it. It's a failed connection, but I'm not totally clear on why.

sistermagpie @ June 7 2003, 09:25:23 UTC

So what do we think now that we know more of the whole story? I completely understand where Dean's coming from on feeling smothered by Seamus--he's very...controlling isn't quite the right word. But he is the one in control of his relationships. I think that's part of what's so funny to watch with ps, how he presumes a lot of him.

So was Draco the last straw for Dean because he was disgusted at the anxiety he felt by Seamus spending just a little time with someone else? Terry appears to have taken advantage not of Dean's jealousy of Draco but his general frustration at Seamus and in a way that's almost worse because that really isn't the kind of stuff you should be saying to a non-neutral party. If Dean had talked to Harry about it it probably would have turned out a lot better. But as it is, as valid as all of Dean's feelings are, he undercut himself by letting Seamus know in this way.

I like the idea that Draco is frightened of Seamus as an unattached agent--Draco may feel a bit overwhelmed by Seamus in general, really. Suddenly he's got this person arranging meetings who brings a lot of baggage with him, is Gryffindor and doesn't even consider Draco a friend. Draco really should be wondering what Seamus' intentions are.

It's funny...Seamus is just kind of unable to have a relationship without it being a public drama. Here Draco's spent a little time with him and already he's finding his picture in Seamus' posts along with Dean's, he's drawn into this whole thing.

So Seamus and Harry will be spending time at Dogear--that could be good for both of them. Seamus, unlike Ron, is sure to continue to see things in terms of romance and I think he's definitely the one person genuinely pulling for Harry to get his Slytherin based on the clothing expedition. Only perhaps he'll be wiser about romance now, if he takes time to think about what Dean said.

black_dog @ June 7 2003, 11:42:30 UTC

So what do we think now that we know more of the whole story?

Well I think I had Dean completely wrong -- I had seen him as the stable, calm one who was sort of a refuge for Seamus from his own volatility, but also vaguely resented by Seamus for not being more exciting. When in fact, it looks like they were both smoldering about the limits of their relationship, and Dean I guess has more of a history of acting out his frustrations than I had realized. I can sympathize with Dean's resentment -- Seamus to some extent treated him like a doll, with all the schmoopy talk, and am I the only one who found Seamus a little manipulative in the Dean/Draco boyfriend post? So Dean holds it in and holds it in, and then bursts. Not a good move, but a human one.

I thought that in the post, Seamus had clearly prepared for a breakup, almost had a speech ready with a list of grievances, which he had been working out with Remus. I think Dean's own toughness, the fact that Dean was ready to break up, too, was a surprise to him, but he kept on-message. They may not have completely heard each other all at once, but I think they both are left with some important stuff to think about.

I was struck that Seamus felt the need to make accusations in justifying the breakup, felt the need to play the "don't come back to me if the world is too cold" card, while Dean went out of his way to express gratitude for what Seamus had done for him, while speaking unapologetically about his own feelings and needs. It truly is a case, I think, where they are better off apart, at least for a while. I think Dean, for all the other pressures on him, is probably going to be in better shape than Seamus in the near-aftermath. The breakup is really more of a challenge to Seamus' assumptions about himself than to Dean's.

he's very...controlling isn't quite the right word.

I know what you mean, though -- he's definitely the dominant partner dynamically, the one who needs to define the terms of the relationship and categorize everyone's role. And on reflection, the problem may have been that Dean is subdued enough to go along with that, while not truly dependent enough not to resent it.

So was Draco the last straw for Dean because he was disgusted at the anxiety he felt by Seamus spending just a little time with someone else?

I don't think "last straw" is quite it -- because I think Dean went into the conversation ready to paper over their differences yet again, though no doubt with some reservations about that. When it was clear that Seamus wasn't going to come back to bed, wasn't going to let it blow over, Dean put his big issue squarely on the table -- that he felt smothered by Seamus, that he had changed in the past six months in ways Seamus wasn't recognizing. He made it very clear that he wasn't going to sit there and simply be judged over his fling with Boot, over who was spending time with whom, that they had real issues to deal with.

If I had to guess what Seamus/Draco meant to Dean in the light of the new evidence, I'd say that yeah, it made him jealous, but it was the boyfriend post, the fact that Seamus assumed he could simply, unilaterally manage and direct Dean's response, that set him off.

And yet I don't want to be unsympathetic to Seamus in all this -- I think he was right to be outraged over not just the fact of Dean/Boot, but the way it was revealed to the community at large. I think he's entitled to feel dissatisfied with Dean's lack of demonstrativeness, if that's what he, Seamus, needs from a relationship. It's just that Seamus is expressing all this in terms of Dean's failures, while I think they were larger relationship failures, more about a basic mismatch between the two of them. [TBC]

sistermagpie @ June 7 2003, 20:25:53 UTC

On one hand I'm totally supportive of Dean's real problems with Seamus, but when it comes to this incident I think he caused more of the problems. Seamus has always been more of the role-player, certainly. He's the openly gay one, the one who takes care of things, the one who knows how relationships are "supposed" to work. I know that if he was my boyfriend we'd probably never have lasted as long as him and Dean.

I love your thoughts on the boyfriend post and I completely understood Dean's small "I love you, Shay." It sounded uncomfortable and why shouldn't it have been? Dean had nothing to do with everybody saying Seamus was spending too much time with Malfoy, yet here he is reading all this schmoopy stuff because of it. Another thing I found really funny in that post is that Draco was absolutely right in saying it looked like Dean was looking at him. He and Dean, ironically, probably had much the same reaction to that post: why is Seamus putting my picture up? Why is he reducing me and our relationship to a few short sentences? If Seamus needs a partner to act a certain way than he's the one being unfair. Would he rather have somebody play the role of schmoopy boyfriend or really care about him?

I do still get confused over Dean getting so annoyed with ps. Was that just a cover? Like, did he just feel like it was safer for him to grumble about Malfoy driving him crazy when really it had nothing to do with that? That would be kind of funny because of course that's the thing Ron is so happy to fasten on, that the problem is that Seamus hung out with Malfoy. Dean's position is still a little unclear to me, I guess, because everyone assumes the problem was Seamus going off on his own with Malfoy when really it's Dean wanting more space not less. I guess everybody wants things to go back to how they were before but Dean doesn't. (Go Dean!)

So even though I think I'd be more in Dean's position in the relationship I can still feel for Seamus here. As overbearing as he is he obviously thinks he's showing affection--much like Ron usually thinks he's being caring when he's being his most insensitive! It must have been horribly humiliating to have Terry and Dean talking about him (naked) and then when he defended himself he got hit with something he wasn't aware of.

Seamus' telling Dean he shouldn't come crawling back does definitely show that Seamus is in the worse spot--Dean's really the one ready for a breakup here. Dean's got hand, in Seinfeld terms, because he turned the tables on Seamus when he thought he was the one wronged. Seamus wasn't ready to see himself as the one with the problem.

Regarding the Draco as friend comment, I wonder if this is further proof of Seamus sort of seeing himself as the one real person while others are players. When he said Draco wasn't his friend it was in service of his making Dean look bad, minimizing his interaction with Draco to show how it contrasted with Dean staying out all night with Dean. That's the second time he's said how he wasn't friends with Draco or was just being nice to him for Harry's sake. If I were Draco I wouldn't want to spend time with somebody who was making it clear he didn't really consider me highly. I mean, he doesn't have to claim a friendship that isn't there but I think I'd be more considerate of the other person in clarifying my relationship with them to someone else.

My question now is--will Harry (and I guess Seamus too) react to ps being unconscious and hurt at all?

black_dog @ June 7 2003, 21:36:15 UTC Re:

I do still get confused over Dean getting so annoyed with ps. Was that just a cover? Like, did he just feel like it was safer for him to grumble about Malfoy driving him crazy when really it had nothing to do with that?

Interesting question and I'm trying to reconcile the two issues. I think Dean was genuinely jealous and annoyed about Seamus/Draco. After all, Draco had been brutal to Dean when his parents rejected him. But I can also see the emotional logic where one issue slides into another. The fact that Seamus can "forget" that incident makes Dean feel like Seamus doesn't see him. The fact that he can brush the issue off, put Draco and Dean's picture on the same post and expect Dean to be happy with "that's right, keep looking over here babe," just reminds him how Seamus is ready to tell him how to think. So he slides from the smaller irritation right over to the bigger issue. They both matter, and one is brought into clearer focus by the other.

My question now is--will Harry (and I guess Seamus too) react to ps being unconscious and hurt at all?

Yeah, we've probably exhausted S/D, though it was fascinating, wasn't it? And isn't it just like PS to selfishly reclaim the spotlight by getting horribly mangled! I definitely think it will be interesting to see who turns up at his bedside, and how they deal with one another. Can Harry overcome whatever's been bringining him down, estranging him from PS? Will Seamus declare on one side or the other of the "friend" issue? Keep that F5 button oiled and ready!

black_dog @ June 7 2003, 11:43:25 UTC

[CONT]I thought there was an amusing example of Seamus' controlling nature in a brief exchange he had with Neville. Neville makes a kind joke about role reversal -- that it's his turn to console Seamus. I thought Seamus' response -- he might as well eat with Neville because no one else would talk to him -- was unintentionally a bit rude, and sort of illustrates how difficult Seamus finds it to see himself as down or at a disadvantage in any situation.

I don't know what to make of Seamus' explicit comment that Draco is not a friend. He called him a friend in the morning. Does he mean, in the current context, "not a romantic friend?" Is he feeling momentarily hostile to Draco because of the breakup? Is he thinking of Harry, now that he really is unattached? Can't figure it out quite yet. But I agree with you -- it's amusing to think of Draco catapulted into the public spotlight, not in a fun way, every time he makes some connection with the Gryffindors. No wonder he's thrown himself back into being a responsible quidditch captain!

And yes, I wish I could be a fly on the wall listening to Harry and Seamus' conversations this weekend at Dogear. Do you suppose there's any chance that Draco will be there visiting his mother? It's odd that Remus hasn't responded to her to clarify the invitation.

sheron @ June 6 2003, 16:48:36 UTC seamus/dean

Another revealing bit of subtext, I think, is today's comment to Dean -- in effect, "I put up with you having Boot for a friend all this time, you could at least put up with Malfoy." Is there an implied equivalence, and does it mean anything?

That's a very interesting point. But I took his comment "I've been really really understanding, maybe TOO understanding, for a really long time." (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to) to mean he's turned a blind eye on Dean's relationship with Boot. It does not imply that he suspected it was anything other than platonic, or else I'd be surprised that Seamus takes no exception to Boot the way he does to Ron (whom he accuses of trying to steal his BF). And there's no mention of Draco anywhere.

I'm inclined to judge Seamus on the theory that he should know his boyfriend well enough to know when his feelings might get hurt, and to worry about that whether it's reasonable or not.

By extension, Dean should have known his boyfriend well enough to trust him not to do anything more-than-friendly with Draco. I'm not defending either one, I'm just bringing up this point that there's obviously a lack of trust here.


I really do think Seamus' judgment suffered here, from an infatuation that may or may not have been fully conscious.

That's a whole other point. They really need to talk about things like this. Of course, being guys (no offence meant), it's rather predictable that they didn't.

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 17:56:31 UTC Re: seamus/dean

I took his comment . . . to mean he's turned a blind eye on Dean's relationship with Boot.

All right, I really shouldn't paraphrase from memory ;) but I really do stand by the thrust of my paraphrase. He does seem to be alluding to Dean's past escapades with Boot, and contrasting them to his own desire to "make one friend," i.e. Malfoy. I tried but failed just now to find a thread from about a month ago -- I think around the time of the duel or the double-date -- where Boot was definitely flirtatious with Dean in Seamus' presence ("that wasn't my ARM").

I think Seamus could mean either the trouble Boot keeps getting Dean into ("all sorts of nonsense"), or the flirtation, or the implication of a past relationship "under the stairs." But either way, Seamus is comparing his relationship with Malfoy to a relationship of Dean's that disturbs him, which I think shows a guiltier conscience than if he had reached for, say, the more obvious example of Dean spending time with Ron. Could be over-reading here, though.

By extension, Dean should have known his boyfriend well enough to trust him not to do anything more-than-friendly with Draco. I'm not defending either one, I'm just bringing up this point that there's obviously a lack of trust here.

Interesting, and I'm trying to think this equivalence through. But I wonder if it would hold in RL -- because I think Seamus' offense here is real and not potential, it's a neglect of appearances, and an objective neglect of Dean, whether or not he actually did anything more with Malfoy. And Seamus after all is the one who was irrationally jealous of the time Dean was spending with Ron of all people, so he should have known better. So I wonder if there wasn't some half-conscious provocation in the time he spent with Malfoy, after all. I just can't make an equivalence between "inflicting a hurt" and "being foolish enough to feel hurt."

You're absolutely right, though, about their trust issues. And I really am disappointed in Dean over what he ended up doing -- I don't remotely justify it. But I do think Seamus has been an active agent here -- without provocation -- in a way that I find hard to completely justify.

Could be wrong. Interesting to hear your take.

sheron @ June 6 2003, 20:12:54 UTC Re: seamus/dean

He does seem to be alluding to Dean's past escapades with Boot, and contrasting them to his own desire to "make one friend," i.e. Malfoy.

I actually don't see him as contrasting the two. I see him as saying something like, "Look, I just tried to make friends and you didn't trust me enough to mention that it bothered you and then you went off with Boot." I don't think he has any problem with Dean being Terry's friend. In fact, I was re-reading the posts of April 25th today to see how upset Dean was, and he seemed to be really hurt by things Malfoy had said. Likely because he was receiving those horrible letters from home. At that time, Seamus told Boot to look after him. When Ron later commented that Terry seems to be chasing after Dean with beans and maybe Seamus should rescue his BF, Seamus replied that Dean can handle Boot just fine.

This time, his problem is very explicitly with what happened that went beyond friendship. And since nothing happened between him and Malfoy (no matter his intentions) he really isn't contrasting the two, I don't think.

If he'd been angry at Dean for spending time with Boot, I would agree with you completely -- there would be a clear parallel.


I tried but failed just now to find a thread from about a month ago -- I think around the time of the duel or the double-date -- where Boot was definitely flirtatious with Dean in Seamus' presence ("that wasn't my ARM").

Oh I remember that one. Don't remember when it happened though. But that's okay, I agree that Boot flirted with Dean on more than one occasion. I don't think Seamus ever really trusted him, but he did trust Dean.

As Seamus had trusted Dean, he'd probably expected to be trusted in return. Especially since the tea-party was so public. I think Seamus may very well be angry at the idea that he doesn't get equal treatment.


By extension, Dean should have known his boyfriend well enough to trust him not to do anything more-than-friendly with Draco. I'm not defending either one, I'm just bringing up this point that there's obviously a lack of trust here.

Interesting, and I'm trying to think this equivalence through. But I wonder if it would hold in RL -- because I think Seamus' offense here is real and not potential, it's a neglect of appearances, and an objective neglect of Dean, whether or not he actually did anything more with Malfoy.

Again I'm going to say... isn't it a little presumptions to think that Seamus would have no other interests than Dean? After all, if we observe his behavior during Dean's Art Project -- he was nothing if not supportive. Even when Dean snapped at him, Seamus was kind in return and brought him food and looked after him. Granted there was no way Dean could be sexually involved with a painting, but it still took up a reasonable amount of his time.

However, when Seamus talks to Draco for a much lesser amount of time about his own interest, it seems to bring out all kinds of jealous feelings in Dean. I really don't think Seamus neglected Dean. A few hours with Draco could hardly put a dent in a healthy relationship. In this case, if Dean really did feel neglected I can only see him as too controlling.

And Seamus after all is the one who was irrationally jealous of the time Dean was spending with Ron of all people, so he should have known better.

I do think Seamus is thinking of the incident with Ron as well -- he says he's put up with enough.

I'm also disappointed with Dean. He went to the entirely wrong person with his problems and he must have known it.

Both of their reactions are very human, if misguided. Should they recover -- their relationship would be so much stronger for it.

So, those are some of my thoughts. Feel free to contradict me, this is a lot of fun. :)

black_dog @ June 6 2003, 21:33:07 UTC Re: seamus/dean

It definitely is fun! All the pleasures of gossip, with a satisfying veneer of literary analysis. Definitely addictive. :)

This time, his problem is very explicitly with what happened that went beyond friendship.

Well, I should clarify, I'm not in any sense defending what Dean did. I guess I'm making an argument that's a half-step removed from that -- my main interest has been Seamus' motives in hanging around with Draco, and I was drawing on Dean's jealousy as evidence that it was reasonable to find something eyebrow-raising in Seamus' behavior. And as part of that argument, we came to the subsidiary question of whether Dean had a right to feel jealous, whether that was in fact legitimate testimony about Seamus. I'm trying only to defend the legitimacy of that feeling.

I totally agree that what Dean did, in response, went off the deep end. And I think you're absolutely right that it reflects badly on the level of trust in their relationship. Though you cite some very good posts about how Seamus really had trusted Dean with Boot at some vulnerable moments. Really, the whole thing has added some interesting detail to both characters, opened a window on both their insecurities. I think Dean, in particular, was obviously way too quick to turn an understandable jealousy (and who hasn't been mildly jealous of even a friend's new infatuations) into the "certainty" of betrayal. It's a reminder of how abandoned Dean must feel over the actions of his family, how potentially suspicious that must make him, at some level, of everyone close to him.

But I really do have some issues with Seamus, even though that makes me sound like somebody's prudish great-aunt. The key bits of evidence have probably been beaten to death -- Harry's unhappiness, and apparently incomplete reconciliation with PS, both Ron's and Millicent's sixth sense that something is awry, a sense that Seamus is "protesting too much" in his denials on Percy's journal and elsewhere, and the tone of Seamus and Draco's comments, which seem to strongly suggest an infatuation, a public flirtation.

That's not to say that anything's actually happened between them, only that Seamus is pursuing Malfoy like a puppy, in a way that raises everyone's eyebrows. And we know that this is happening at a time when Dean needs him, and when Harry and Ron are both very vulnerable over Draco-related issues. I do think Seamus' halo is slipping a little here. He's not being tactful, or thinking about consequences. It's kind of humanizing, it's certainly forgivable, but it's definitely noteworthy, I think, and it's driving some of the action that's happening around him. So that's why I still kind of feel it's a bigger deal than just Seamus making a new friend, finding a new interest, in the ordinary course of things.

There's an interesting argument to be made about responsibility -- is it Seamus' fault that the people around him are so caught up in their own issues, that they can feel threatened by something that would be no big deal if Draco weren't the center of so many jealousies and strong feelings? Can't Seamus just say that hey, that's everyone else's problem? But in fact, people feel what they feel, and these are Seamus' friends, and he's usually the master of tact and sensitivity. So it's at least interesting that he feels attracted enough to Draco, Platonically or not, to ignore all that.

My .02. Together with everyone else's, it starts to add up!

sheron @ June 6 2003, 22:29:58 UTC Re: seamus/dean pt1

The veneer, ah yes. *holds tightly to the veneer*

I guess I'm making an argument that's a half-step removed from that -- my main interest has been Seamus' motives in hanging around with Draco, and I was drawing on Dean's jealousy as evidence that it was reasonable to find something eyebrow-raising in Seamus' behavior.

Hmm, well imho the very idea that Dean was jealous discredits him as biased. Someone removed from the situation might be a better judge of what actually happened. But who in NA is truly removed?
That said, I in no way mean to imply Dean's jealousy was illegitimate.

And as part of that argument, we came to the subsidiary question of whether Dean had a right to feel jealous, whether that was in fact legitimate testimony about Seamus. I'm trying only to defend the legitimacy of that feeling.

Right, and although I acknowledge the legitimacy of that feeling because Dean is human, I do think that ideally he should have looked past his jealousy. Yeah, I know, "ideally" is such strange a word to throw around here, but if we're arguing about legitimacy of that feeling I think we should take into account not only how Dean reacted by also what the "correct" response would be.

I think Dean, in particular, was obviously way too quick to turn an understandable jealousy (and who hasn't been mildly jealous of even a friend's new infatuations) into the "certainty" of betrayal. It's a reminder of how abandoned Dean must feel over the actions of his family, how potentially suspicious that must make him, at some level, of everyone close to him.

Exactly. This is where your argument almost convinces me. Seamus as his boyfriend should really have realized all of this. In fact, I'm almost certain he did, it just slipped his mind when the moment came. Add to the fact the same boy who'd played off Dean's insecurities and it's easy to see why Dean would be upset. It's not just the idea of something more than friendship -- I think he is upset enough as it is with Seamus forgiving Malfoy so easily even in a friendly way.

But I really do have some issues with Seamus, even though that makes me sound like somebody's prudish great-aunt. The key bits of evidence have probably been beaten to death -- Harry's unhappiness, and apparently incomplete reconciliation with PS, both Ron's and Millicent's sixth sense that something is awry, a sense that Seamus is "protesting too much" in his denials on Percy's journal and elsewhere, and the tone of Seamus and Draco's comments, which seem to strongly suggest an infatuation, a public flirtation.

Again, here I completely agree with you. Seamus' actions were misguided. He may or may not have had good intentions in mind, but he did not consider how this would look on the outside. There was a debate at one point in time on whether it was really Seamus who'd outed Harry in the end. I think this current situation is quite similar in that Seamus doesn't think his actions through to their affect on everyone. But is it humanly possible to consider every side of the argument?

There's an interesting argument to be made about responsibility -- is it Seamus' fault that the people around him are so caught up in their own issues, that they can feel threatened by something that would be no big deal if Draco weren't the center of so many jealousies and strong feelings? Can't Seamus just say that hey, that's everyone else's problem? But in fact, people feel what they feel, and these are Seamus' friends, and he's usually the master of tact and sensitivity.

Absolutely. I do not think Seamus' behavior is perfect. But I do not believe he deserved to have his own trust violated in a much cruder way.

Also I think we shouldn't forget that people place different emphasis on various relationship issues. Where one might feel jealous another would not. So it could be the case of Seamus not realizing he was responsible for anything.

TBC...

sheron @ June 6 2003, 22:30:27 UTC Re: seamus/dean pt2

cont'd from pt1...

So it's at least interesting that he feels attracted enough to Draco, Platonically or not, to ignore all that.

I think I find the idea that he is attracted to Draco enough to forget about other's people feelings appealing. Therefore I am probably biased when I say it's a definite possibility.

However, I do want to say that it's hardly fair to judge him based on his attraction to Draco as being unfaithful to Dean in any way. Someone wrote once... "It's not where you get hungry, it's where you come to eat." But I do find this whole situation fascinating, not just in terms of their relationship, although the dimensions added to the characters involved are wonderful on their own. The responses of members of nraged are also quite interesting.

I hope my reply made sense as it is way after midnight here. Way too late for me to be up since I have work tomorrow morning. Talk to you sometime later :)

black_dog @ June 7 2003, 12:01:05 UTC Re: seamus/dean pt2

Well, it's interesting to reflect on all this in the light of the breakup. I'm examining my own reactions, and I find that I'm quite willing to judge people when they seem self-possesed and in control, but also to walk away from the idea of "fault" when their biggest emotional issues, when a basic incompatability, comes to the front.

Your argument has been that Dean should have dealt better with his jealousy, mine that Seamus should have been more responsible about provoking it. But now it looks like both issues reflect some underlying problems in a relationship that simply needs a time out, or that perhaps is over for good. They both were clearly unhappy, they both weren't getting something they felt entitled to, and it moves the issue, I guess, beyond the question of how they should have behaved in order to maintain the relationship.

Seamus' willingness to make friends with Draco seems to at least have the subtext that he was bored with Dean's lack of demonstrativeness -- even though, oddly, he denied last night that Draco was his friend. Dean's extracurricular adventures with Boot seem to reflect a sense of being smothered by Seamus, an urgent need to find another connection. At a certain point, maybe you can't judge them, you just have to say they're better off apart?

What do you think, what's your take on these two, now that things have blown up?

sheron @ June 7 2003, 20:30:00 UTC Re: seamus/dean pt2

Yes I agree with your points.
It now looks to me as though Seamus jumped at the first opportunity for break up. Of course, he did it so he couild walk away in a huff of righteous anger when obviously he had been unhappy even before then. In light of new revelations (which came totally out of the blue, as these things tend to in the heat of anger) I think they are better off apart.
The only thing that annoys me about this is that breaking up was the one and only option they seemed to be considering.
But as they seem to both agree on it at least, that's not too bad. I just hope Dean realizes that although he hasn't been a perfect boyfriend some of the blame lays on Seamus as well. Right now Dean seems to have him on some kind of pedestal which is never good.

We'll see how things go with time. In light of the new excitement with the Quidditch game it's hard not to want to move on to All Things Draco :)

Anonymous @ June 7 2003, 00:38:19 UTC It's fucking MALFOY Re: seamus/dean

I think Dean, in particular, was obviously way too quick to turn an understandable jealousy (and who hasn't been mildly jealous of even a friend's new infatuations) into the "certainty" of betrayal. It's a reminder of how abandoned Dean must feel over the actions of his family, how potentially suspicious that must make him, at some level, of everyone close to him.

I think there's another part of this "Seamus and Draco hanging out as betrayal" that hasn't been analyzed. Dean says that his problem was mostly that it was *Malfoy*.

Putting sex etc aside for a moment, isn't it a bit strange for Seamus to want to be *friend* with Malfoy? Malfoy, who they were all united in hatred against. Malfoy who played mean bullying pranks, who makes racist remarks about halfbloods and mudbloods (like they are).

And Malfoy who basically made a huge homophobic arse of himself, and whom Seamus was all tutt-tutting to?

Then somehow they're playing with cut-out dolls? I can't blame Dean for being all wtf? And for thinking, "what is at work here? He *can't* be hanging out with him for his high moral standards and great personality."

Not that this means Dean is justified in his fling with Boot. Although Seamus' holier than thou after the fact "I think I've been really really understanding, maybe TOO understanding" and his "one friend" sets my teeth on edge.

Like you ever wanted a racist homophobe as a buddy before you started to know what he smelled like, Seamus.

Fah.

Boot at least, for all him amorality, has never been as proactively cruel as Malfoy. It's not a paradigm shift for someone to want to hang out with him.

Not that Dean isn't at major fault here actions-wise, but emotionally, I'm way more on his side. And y'know. Total crush on him and stuff colors my vision.

athene_51 @ June 6 2003, 19:13:56 UTC

From M.B.'s team list...

Chaser 01 -- Audrey Bysmal

This shortens to "A. Bysmal". As in, abysmal. Foreshadowing? Coincidence? Possibly

Overanalysis? Probably. Hee!